EPTTry explaining how Motive absolutely destroys Hero without using any of my arguments:
PS: you can't.
Why protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 21
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mtcn77
Turkey639 Posts
Try explaining how Motive absolutely destroys Hero without using any of my arguments: PS: you can't. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2749 Posts
Side one: Zerg was ahead but threw the game Side two: Ape 2 base all in pays off "They are now construing protoss is so weak that eventhough weak protoss players win, it is because zerg players throw the game" This sentence makes no sense, except to say "p is so weak, they can only win if z throws". That is besides this one match, but ontopic. "which is totally misleading the point since the zerg in question is Queen and he has been playing this way for 2 seasons already and they are doing this to disprove protoss can win in good conditions that they do not approve of like fighting for map control and not throwing an FE." This is a single sentence. I'm trying to break it down for myself here. So your saying queen has been throwing for 2 seasons, and p has been win ing vs queen, but only because he threw. Welp, I read this thread and afaik the last 10 pages were only about whether queen fucked up that engage or not, so I don't get where this comes from. "PS: self-reflection - I have been dissing on Queen for two seasons without any fault of his. It was a game Soulkey played. This is the game I was trying to trace, I had found the cross spawn before in which Queen was present, however couldn't find the near spawn one. This is likely it since I know Tasteless cast it and it is the same map." Your dissing queen but it was a game soulkey played? But queen was present? I feel at this point I'm putting more meaning in your words than you, as if I'm reading ink stains. So you are in the camp: 2 base all in pays off. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey639 Posts
On February 17 2025 06:31 Navane wrote: I don't understand what point your making. Side one: Zerg was ahead but threw the game Side two: Ape 2 base all in pays off "They are now construing protoss is so weak that eventhough weak protoss players win, it is because zerg players throw the game" This sentence makes no sense, except to say "p is so weak, they can only win if z throws". That is besides this one match, but ontopic. Topic is this false narrative that protoss is weak they say is true. I'm saying false using examples however they are arguing based on this one game it is false when protoss wins because zerg threw the game. I'm saying this is a misconstrued argument. Queen has been playing this way for two seasons and is not a benchmark for pvz. He didn't throw just this one game. "which is totally misleading the point since the zerg in question is Queen and he has been playing this way for 2 seasons already and they are doing this to disprove protoss can win in good conditions that they do not approve of like fighting for map control and not throwing an FE." This is a single sentence. I'm trying to break it down for myself here. So your saying queen has been throwing for 2 seasons, and p has been win ing vs queen, but only because he threw. Welp, I read this thread and afaik the last 10 pages were only about whether queen fucked up that engage or not, so I don't get where this comes from. They are saying he threw. I'm saying this is his new normal. I'm zerg and have been waiting for his time after Jaedong. This is all in retrospect since Soulkey has taken that spot. In the past, we didn't dream any zerg would be a bonjwa with Bisu and all... "PS: self-reflection - I have been dissing on Queen for two seasons without any fault of his. It was a game Soulkey played. This is the game I was trying to trace, I had found the cross spawn before in which Queen was present, however couldn't find the near spawn one. This is likely it since I know Tasteless cast it and it is the same map." Your dissing queen but it was a game soulkey played? But queen was present? I feel at this point I'm putting more meaning in your words than you, as if I'm reading ink stains. So you are in the camp: 2 base all in pays off. Yes, I actually made the argument. That is not all in, just 1gate and 2gate play. You can scroll around this thread reading comments soma lost because it was such an afterthought build no one prepares for any more and such. On the contrary, if you don't play like this Soulkey will win another final, lol. PS: This is the game that was cross spawn, albeit not the exact one. You can see it on the #99th post. I said there was a near spawn that turned out to be a Soulkey game and I diss on Queen for no reason. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey639 Posts
You can also find various quotes of mine saying hydralisks are worse than mutalings. It is harder to pull off, but with muta-lings you can serve quadruple purpose: they are small, they have more hp, they have aggro priority so dragoons are also disabled while zerglings can roam free and you can hunt HTs with a mutaling combo. PS: 20 hydralisks cost the same as 5 mutalisks and 56 zerglings. They don't take more than five groups, so I think apart from the 15 larva difference between their spawning rates I think it can be a very difficult to pull attack. You might be dissuaded, but hear me out. 1600 hp with 317.4 dps(explosive) versus 5120 hp(small unit normalised) with 868.98 dps. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26194 Posts
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SiarX
104 Posts
As for mutalings, lings cannot dodge storms. They get slaughtered quickly, corsairs kill mutas, and you have no army left, because you did not build hydralisks. | ||
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TMNT
3098 Posts
So now the translation from jinjin is out. Look, after the 3 Zealots died we have Flash JD and Mini all said the game was over. So according to Eon they didn't know what they were talking about either lmao. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey639 Posts
On February 17 2025 08:11 SiarX wrote: What is the point of posting single games instead of statistics? They do not prove anything, statistics is the only reliable argument. As for mutalings, lings cannot dodge storms. They get slaughtered quickly, corsairs kill mutas, and you have no army left, because you did not build hydralisks. I said it as a flex move. Zerg also gets its fair share being economically compromised although I don't know where the efficiencies are to make more macro hatcheries. Maybe I will hyperbole over that next if SK loses to P this season. | ||
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G5
United States2919 Posts
On February 17 2025 08:20 TMNT wrote: Honestly that Shuttle vs Queen game is neither worth discussing nor relevant to this topic. The only reason it sparks that much debate is because Eon brought it up as an example of "hey look, Protoss can roll over Zerg easily with a safe style", and when it was pointed out that it was just Queen throwing the game, he kept doubling down on that. So now the translation from jinjin is out. Look, after the 3 Zealots died we have Flash JD and Mini all said the game was over. So according to Eon they didn't know what they were talking about either lmao. This is pretty accurate. | ||
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TMNT
3098 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6790 Posts
On February 17 2025 08:20 TMNT wrote: Honestly that Shuttle vs Queen game is neither worth discussing nor relevant to this topic. The only reason it sparks that much debate is because Eon brought it up as an example of "hey look, Protoss can roll over Zerg easily with a safe style", and when it was pointed out that it was just Queen throwing the game, he kept doubling down on that. So now the translation from jinjin is out. Look, after the 3 Zealots died we have Flash JD and Mini all said the game was over. So according to Eon they didn't know what they were talking about either lmao. This is not accurate tho. I never said u dont know what are you talking about for calling 3 zealots dying. I said you dont know what you are talking about for saying stuff like making an expansion. Cancelling upgrades. Or saying stuff like Zerg is never up in Supply. It doesnt matter how high in supply you are that if you dont have the right units they are useless. Storm can make zerg supply drop extremely quick. With your low skill you can watch Jinjinn video and take the words from FlaSh for real about Queen going for the corsairs at the natural when he pulled lings and scourge to get the corsairs. When that is typically a timing do you try to abuse from Protoss. Flash said this exactly: Wow queen doesnt respect shuttle at all lol. for doing that. The funny part of this is that the guy that i was arguing agaisnt about Protoss eco with 55 workers is the one that gave the best explanation from all of you about what happened to queen in that game. So at the end of the day i will take the L and regret calling him that he doesnt know too much lol. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia934 Posts
But sorry if I was misleading. I didn't mean it like "if you can't do immediate damage when cutting on 40 probes, you're dead". More like...you're 1k minerals behind when trying to mid game push / secure your 3rd. Probably more than that behind by something like 16 min, since you can't start to saturate minerals on the 3rd as fast as you'd want. The 3rd timing may still be +- 1min on time, the 4th is what is likely to be significantly delayed. And after main/nat start to mine out it's back to being whatever. But 1k mineral swings happen all the time in fights. There are good P players who just play with 40 all the time, control their army well and that's enough for them to hit smth like 2600+. If you look at someone like Bisu, he's fast enough to make use of that extra eco, he usually gets the 4th faster than anyone else in the matchup. But a ton of PvZ's never get there anyway. Meanwhile, someone like Snow is going to float that 1000 in an action-packed PvZ anyway, but still has success, so... | ||
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TMNT
3098 Posts
On February 17 2025 08:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: This is not accurate tho. I never said u dont know what are you talking about for calling 3 zealots dying. I said you dont know what you are talking about for saying stuff like making an expansion. Cancelling upgrades. Or saying stuff like Zerg is never up in Supply. It doesnt matter how high in supply you are that if you dont have the right units they are useless. Storm can make zerg supply drop extremely quick. Yeah you didn't say shit bro. That's because you just said I didn't know anything and left it at that without clarification, thinking since you're some famous foreign player you can just shit on unknown people whom you call "low skill". And now when being proved wrong you're trying to backtrack and bend my words out of context to save face. Mini specifically mentioned the upgrade. How about that bro? I also said it's not even necessary for Queen to delay the expansion or have the upgrade. He could still hold the push with the expansion and without +2. Just needed to position his army and execute the fight right. And all of them mentioned Queen being ahead in supply as an indicator of Shuttle falling far behind. Exactly what I meant. Now you're all like "no no but being up in supply doesn't matter if you eat all the storm". Yeah no shit Sherlock. Being ahead doesn't mean you can let a full group of hydras eat a whole storm. But ahead he was still. With your low skill you can watch Jinjinn video and take the words from FlaSh for real about Queen going for the corsairs at the natural when he pulled lings and scourge to get the corsairs. When that is typically a timing do you try to abuse from Protoss. Flash said this exactly: Wow queen doesnt respect shuttle at all lol. for doing that. I don't even know what you mean in this paragraph. But let me tell you one thing: Flash saying Queen doesn't respect Shuttle is also in agreement with my assessment before: he was getting cocky (hence he was being greedy and took the 4th a little too soon, hence he thought he could've held the push without the groups at 6 and 1, etc.). The funny part of this is that the guy that i was arguing agaisnt about Protoss eco with 55 workers is the one that gave the best explanation from all of you about what happened to queen in that game. So at the end of the day i will take the L and regret calling him that he doesnt know too much lol. And this isn't what I was arguing with you so I have nothing to comment, aside from the fact that you kept saying you brought up this game for the 44 vs 55 workers debate. But actually you didn't. There was absolutely no mention of that thing in your original post when you brought this game up. You only brought it out later to distract. Also it's pretty embarrassing you kept dodging the question "was Shuttle behind? ". Like how many times Flash JD Mini and Rush said he was dead in the video? And how many times they mentioned the details that I mentioned? Zealots die, check. DTs die, check. Corsairs die, check. Supply, check. Cannons, check. Upgrade, check. Also notice how JD kept criticising Shuttle for playing too safe (playing not to loose). Oh turns out he's also agreeing with me and disagreeing with you. Protoss can't play safe and expect to win. It's incredible after watching that video you can still convince yourself that you were right lol. Delusional top level. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10247 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey639 Posts
On February 17 2025 14:10 HolySmokes wrote: I want to give Shuttle credit for his win. Even though he's a meme, he has his moments of brilliance, and he did beat a top Korean Zerg pro who is good at ZvP, and that's no fluke. Even though his early aggression wasn't perfect, the strategy to force lings was sound, he did delay Queen's tech and seem to take him out his comfort zone, hence his mistakes, and the game was close enough that if Queen made a mistake, he could win. Even though the pro's reaction wasn't good at the time, I think they will look back on this game and say, hey, it was closer than we thought. Yes. It should not be left for granted: it was a great win. There was some other game I cannot recall, Artosis was talking about a recent cnsl7 game starting off with here is our most aggressive zerg player and then, oh here he might be overcommitting here and the zerg continued to rush and won. There was also a tournament game where the pros were split 8:2 and the underdog won. Wish I could recall the game, but it was a huge upset. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey639 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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ThunderJunk
United States717 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:11 HolySmokes wrote: I think the pros are already there. Something tells me Flash is behind this somehow, as I see his intelligence in their play. But Mini and Snow have been killing it against Zerg lately. They have a blistering 65% and 80!% win rate respectively over their last 20 PvZs. No freelo either, almost all games against Queen, SK, JD, Hero, and Action. Hydra busts have been no problem, and Mini even had a great win against SK the other day doing forge FE into 2 star. Just better play and better tactics, and maybe that's all they really needed. That, and not being given away by the crowd through the transparent booths at SSL. | ||
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