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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6815 Posts
Im not going to comment on the others comments cuz first of all. That was a proleague game Ace match. That will decide who actually takes the money for his team mates. So saying stuff like Zero was cooky etc makes not sense. Im not going to expand on the others coments about early expand or delay upgrades cuz is clear you dont even know what you are talking about.. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6815 Posts
On February 14 2025 07:48 jinjin5000 wrote: The golden moment that game was when Jaedong immediately went to SoulKey's stream after the win to see his reaction tho. But yea it was some throw Soulkey must feel so cheated since Shuttle is always losing aces games for him but when is against him then he win LMAO. Also Jaedong was shock recently when Zero was defeated by Barracks in another ace match the other day :D | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On February 14 2025 09:03 HolySmokes wrote: eonzerg 4 pooling the title of most delusional away from mtcn77. I think I have commented zealots incur economic penalty on zerg and cited Queen vs Flash game where Queen brilliantly does the same on Flash by faking a continuously impending zergling bust despite making new expansions outside of Flash's peripheral vision and named this the glass cannon strategy for protoss. I think I have also commentated zerg is the slowest economically scaling race. Try droning every 8/9 times and start dropping to 7/9, or 6/9 because you have to spawn buildings, or make units while terrans and protoss can constantly apply pressure and not have to stop scaling their economies. Did I tell you protoss expansions cost 1 probe cheaper than zerg and terrans? Why stop at 2? Why not make +1 more than them? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26337 Posts
On February 14 2025 12:12 mtcn77 wrote: I think I have commented zealots incur economic penalty on zerg and cited Queen vs Flash game where Queen brilliantly does the same on Flash by faking a continuously impending zergling bust despite making new expansions outside of Flash's peripheral vision and named this the glass cannon strategy for protoss. I think I have also commentated zerg is the slowest economically scaling race. Try droning every 8/9 times and start dropping to 7/9, or 6/9 because you have to spawn buildings, or make units while terrans and protoss can constantly apply pressure and not have to stop scaling their economies. Did I tell you protoss expansions cost 1 probe cheaper than zerg and terrans? Why stop at 2? Why not make +1 more than them? I dunno, maybe over 20+ years of players exploring the game to its fullest, a whole professional scene doing that and apparently nobody figuring this out. Go play, test your ideas. If they work maybe you’ve some genius insight that everyone else has missed. Maynard wasn’t some highly skilled monster, but he had a good idea, and it elevated him for a period. And everyone adopted it to the extent to Maynarding became a verb. Go do it, show it. I haven’t played BW seriously in about 15 years. I’m now an observer and appreciator I bet you 100% I could start tomorrow and follow orthodox thinking and I’ll outdo your theory crafting. Not because I’m latently skilled (far from it) but because I’m not deluded. ‘Put up or shut up’ as they say in my country. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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TMNT
3122 Posts
On February 14 2025 08:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: But that game was an example of protoss macroing with 45 workers wth 8 gateways to that guy before that was saying protoss must absolute make 55 lol. Im not going to comment on the others comments cuz first of all. That was a proleague game Ace match. That will decide who actually takes the money for his team mates. So saying stuff like Zero was cooky etc makes not sense. Im not going to expand on the others coments about early expand or delay upgrades cuz is clear you dont even know what you are talking about.. Mansplaining not gonna help your argument Eon. I mean, if he lost a decisive fight while in the lead, then expanding later and having more army/upgrade would help, wouldn't it? It's not rocket science. We could sit here and talk all day about the reasons Queen lost that game and I could be wrong about them, but the bottom line is he threw that game, didn't he? Can we agree on that? Because if not, that means you are suggesting Protoss can throw the early game, sit back, comfortably macro and roll Zerg like nothing. Either that, or you original point (about Shuttle playing safe and smashing Queen) is null and void. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1874 Posts
On February 13 2025 22:19 mtcn77 wrote: So, are you saying it is a player issue? Because flash won with protoss against rush at asl10. flashs pvt or pvx wasnt best in class. a couple series really doesnt prove much. has rain beaten rush? has snow beaten rush? you see where im going with this...? | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On February 14 2025 21:22 CicadaSC wrote: flashs pvt or pvx wasnt best in class. a couple series really doesnt prove much. has rain beaten rush? has snow beaten rush? you see where im going with this...? No, Flash HAS beaten Rush, this is not an if - it has worked at Flash's level. We were talking it was impossible to win PvT as some were hoping a quick fix would change that. Come on - no FE. Okay, I'll try to put it simply; In Caesar 3 you can play an economic campaign, or a military campaign. In Starcraft, you have to play both, however the game skips these training steps and what you end up with is unfounded opinions that don't know they are biased. You have to build skillsets on top of another. Just because you rush, or survivorship bias "it has worked until now" is no indication for its merit. You have to compare your build to the fastest build, both economically and militarily, for perspective. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1151 Posts
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TMNT
3122 Posts
Also ASL10 Rush was not current Rush. He was literally a Ro24/16 caliber player up until season 9. It won't shock anyone that Flash's offrace should be able to beat a Ro24/16 player one time. Even Best's Terran literally 2-0 Queen (online, mind) | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10332 Posts
On February 14 2025 08:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: But that game was an example of protoss macroing with 45 workers wth 8 gateways to that guy before that was saying protoss must absolute make 55 lol. Im not going to comment on the others comments cuz first of all. That was a proleague game Ace match. That will decide who actually takes the money for his team mates. So saying stuff like Zero was cooky etc makes not sense. Im not going to expand on the others coments about early expand or delay upgrades cuz is clear you dont even know what you are talking about.. This comment is so unfathomably zerg biased (like all of your youtube clickbait titles) that it's hardly worth even discussing. It's such bad faith like the rest of your comment history honestly. If you're going to try to have a discussion, or make claims about how much you've watched and played this game, at least be somewhat reasonable with your takes. Literally every single one of Shuttle's teammates were sitting there with despair. Mini was moaning the entire game after every single zealot move out didn't work. Zero threw, which honestly isn't uncommon given his entire history in Starcraft (throwing against Jangbi on Sniper Ridge, throwing overpool vs A-rank BBS, throwing here). But sure, I'm sure the great and mighty eonzerg is the one who knows more than Shuttle's korean pro teammates who thought the game was over. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6815 Posts
On February 15 2025 05:15 FlaShFTW wrote: This comment is so unfathomably zerg biased (like all of your youtube clickbait titles) that it's hardly worth even discussing. It's such bad faith like the rest of your comment history honestly. If you're going to try to have a discussion, or make claims about how much you've watched and played this game, at least be somewhat reasonable with your takes. Literally every single one of Shuttle's teammates were sitting there with despair. Mini was moaning the entire game after every single zealot move out didn't work. Zero threw, which honestly isn't uncommon given his entire history in Starcraft (throwing against Jangbi on Sniper Ridge, throwing overpool vs A-rank BBS, throwing here). But sure, I'm sure the great and mighty eonzerg is the one who knows more than Shuttle's korean pro teammates who thought the game was over. Hmm but is very well known in proleagues the bois are over dramatic. Jinjinn translated many of this videos. And We are talking about Shuttle that has one of the highest LR in Ace matches and proleague . So ofcourse when Shuttle made some early blunders with the 3 first zealots all of them were already in that mood cuz good bye money.. The funny part is that i linked that game Solely for the eco of 45 that is very common. But all of you for some reason decided to turn this into something else. And is not false at all that Shuttle ended up winning from a not good position at all. Where he was forced to make canons. Forced to use 2 forges double upgrade and also kind of lose map control with his zealots. Now my issue here is that We are giving 0 credit to Shuttle attack. Literally 0. Instead We are saying stuff like oh WEE PLAYED COOKY. OHH he expanded . Oh didnt delay upgrades. Wow.. Do you guys really dont realize that if zerg doesnt start that expansion and Protoss go expand with 8 gateways production zerg will never actually take another base ? Like literally zerg cant match Protoss production. Zero wasnt even going for hive. He literally put everything to make units and hold that attack. Major blunder is that the units from his 4 base never actually went to his base on time. Couple of sunkens would help aswell. But Shuttle actually played that pretty well. He send a worker to try to take an expo. And gave Zero the feeling that he wanted to expand asap. And Zero got hit by a thunder. ( many thunders in this case ) and got almost no trade from his army. Something very interesting from this thread is that now we are removing credit from Protoss players. Jangbi 2 OSLs back to back are meaningless than boxer OSLs. Rain winning ASL is the product of maps. But Rain also won KSL. And later on played a finals vs Flash if im not mistaken. Flash random protoss victories are just luck. Him reaching top 3 in ASL is pure luck. So u are telling me a guy that played protoss/terran his entire career. Snow/Bisu/Rush couldnt win vs Flash Protoss ( that in theory is not near Top protoss skill ) cuz of luck. Flashftw im not sure what my youtube has to do with anything of this. But believe me or not most of those tittles are stuff i have seen over the years about Protoss Terran and zerg. And put them with zerg stuff like defiler is imbalanced. hydra is overpowered.. hold position lurkers need a nerf etc. Youtube promotes well those videos instead of generic tittles zerg vs terran map fighting spirit. I recommend to no be triggered about that cuz is just the way youtube works. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10332 Posts
On February 15 2025 06:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Hmm but is very well known in proleagues the bois are over dramatic. Jinjinn translated many of this videos. And We are talking about Shuttle that has one of the highest LR in Ace matches and proleague . So ofcourse when Shuttle made some early blunders with the 3 first zealots all of them were already in that mood cuz good bye money.. The funny part is that i linked that game Solely for the eco of 45 that is very common. But all of you for some reason decided to turn this into something else. And is not false at all that Shuttle ended up winning from a not good position at all. Where he was forced to make canons. Forced to use 2 forges double upgrade and also kind of lose map control with his zealots. Now my issue here is that We are giving 0 credit to Shuttle attack. Literally 0. Instead We are saying stuff like oh WEE PLAYED COOKY. OHH he expanded . Oh didnt delay upgrades. Wow.. Do you guys really dont realize that if zerg doesnt start that expansion and Protoss go expand with 8 gateways production zerg will never actually take another base ? Like literally zerg cant match Protoss production. Zero wasnt even going for hive. He literally put everything to make units and hold that attack. Major blunder is that the units from his 4 base never actually went to his base on time. Couple of sunkens would help aswell. But Shuttle actually played that pretty well. He send a worker to try to take an expo. And gave Zero the feeling that he wanted to expand asap. And Zero got hit by a thunder. ( many thunders in this case ) and got almost no trade from his army. Something very interesting from this thread is that now we are removing credit from Protoss players. Jangbi 2 OSLs back to back are meaningless than boxer OSLs. Rain winning ASL is the product of maps. But Rain also won KSL. And later on played a finals vs Flash if im not mistaken. Flash random protoss victories are just luck. Him reaching top 3 in ASL is pure luck. So u are telling me a guy that played protoss/terran his entire career. Snow/Bisu/Rush couldnt win vs Flash Protoss ( that in theory is not near Top protoss skill ) cuz of luck. Flashftw im not sure what my youtube has to do with anything of this. But believe me or not most of those tittles are stuff i have seen over the years about Protoss Terran and zerg. And put them with zerg stuff like defiler is imbalanced. hydra is overpowered.. hold position lurkers need a nerf etc. Youtube promotes well those videos instead of generic tittles zerg vs terran map fighting spirit. I recommend to no be triggered about that cuz is just the way youtube works. Zero took a fight in the middle of a choke and had two groups of hydra/lurker at both 6 and his 4th base. It was one of the worst possible tactical decisions he could've done the entire game, especially after killing the probe to delay the 3rd base even further. You want 0 accountability for Zero's play there, which is ironic considering you're the one claiming no one is giving Shuttle credit for his push. His push was ordinary, and sure he had a couple good storms because Zero decided to not micro hydras from two of them. If you were to play that video to just before the attack to any professional korean protoss or zerg player, they would say this is a 95-5 position for Zerg, every single time, and this is undeniable. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6815 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/2AulFb2.png) At 12:37 Shuttle is finally marching to Zero's base. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/87KqQUN.png) At 12:42 finally Zero's lurkers are done. As you can see the all of this is happening extremely fast. The point of defense contrary to your belief is not really that far. The real problem is that zero had almost not time to setup well his point of defense. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Bf5bzRe.png) At 12:55 the siege starts ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/l72tM6w.png) As you can see this is not as easy as it looks from zerg pov. The most close i can explain this is that imagine a protoss attacking with a terran sieging in protoss army face. Is pretty clear Zero was under a lot of pressure with sudden change of pace. Zerg units are from paper They die pretty quick. I already said sunkens could have been great. As you see creep is already far and could have helped for sure. But at the same time by the time those sunkens were up i doubt zero army will even survive cuz of how bad his Lurkers were setup. And tbh he doesnt even have that many lurkers. Dodging Storm he did and also failed some. That is zerg life. Now progamers are only using 3 ctrl groups for units. 123 Units and 4567890 hatcheries. I have to say im not sure Queen does it but most modern zergs. Soulkey/Soma/Hero does it. But anyway this is Broodwar. Controlling all those units is not easy. And you better than anyone cuz you actually play the game know this. I honestly think if Shuttle actually went to setup his third and then attack Zero would have Smashed him no doubt. Sadly he just kit the right key timing And made a really good composed attack without trading for no reason and just punishing Zero in this situation. But anyway at the end of the day i doubt we are going to agree with anything at this point. ggs | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10332 Posts
Also from this last screenshot, Zero should be patient here knowing he has a 4th base. He just needs to hold and he can continue to scale. He should have made Shuttle come deeper into the choke point where he has two sides to hit, and then use the units still on the map to encircle Shuttle from behind. Instead, he took the fight at arguably the worst possible position and timing because he panicked. There was plenty of time for him to react and respond better to Shuttle's attack. It's the same thing on a map like Radeon. If Protoss is attacking into you, do you take the fight right at the choke? Or do you let them come forward first where you have greater surface area to attack from your natural and your third at the same time? The same concepts apply here. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YZFKnym.png) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6815 Posts
And not Radeon is way more open. There is nothing in common. Ok watch Zero pov and see how much pressure got to him all of sudden. Take in mind The way Shutte played it was looking like he wanted to take an expansion. Then he shifted intentions 180 and zero Wasnt even Sure where Shuttle was going to Strike. You can even see him sending army to his 4. And that was a good thing if you ask me cuz now he can attack from two sides. But the big issue is the lurker defense in the main is way too rushed and really exposed. https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/151028815?change_second=24167 Man and this is you watching two POVS seeing exactly what happened and coming with different solutions. Zero literally has like 40 seconds to decide all that and take the right decision. That is why i said you guys giving 0 credit to Shuttle here doesnt make any sense. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1481 Posts
but didn't imagine that match between 2 lowest performers of the day would spawn this much discussion | ||
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