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On December 01 2024 15:18 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2024 14:25 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:On December 01 2024 13:48 Balnazza wrote:On December 01 2024 13:28 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
not sure which matchup has interesting game at all...
I really miss the like of Has, but he knows there's not fun to be had so he ain't playing anymore. Has played his last official match two weeks ago, taking a map off of Showtime, so I assume he is still somewhat in practice. As a friendly advice, that I sometimes tend to need aswell: If the game is so not-fun and rage-inducing to you, maybe just don't engage in it, including this forum? Because I really don't get the impulse of "I hate all of this, so naturally I have to go to a place where people enjoy this and tell them I hate it - repeatedly." I am only posting cause I played 4 ~ 5 days of SC2 in past 2 weeks. Normally I am not here. Whiiiich you clearly hated, bringing me back to my point...?
I am done replying to you anyway, this is an open forum people can express their opinion about the game state and such. If you want to have an echo chamber that's not my problem.
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Speaking of late game, last night at HSC, Serral said that terran's late game is definitely weaker now.
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Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated
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one step too much with that cyclon.
every terran plays cyclons nowadays.
you need to out perform in order to beat lesser players.
very frustrating. hope it will change
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On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated
No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal.
Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran.
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On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran.
The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are.
In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example.
I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone
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On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation between thor to cyclone
The problem with the Thor IMHO is that the core unit design for it goes way back to Wings of Liberty. During that era things were generally slower, Medivacs didn't have boost, Mutas were slower and needed to be magic boxed, Banshees did not have a speed upgrade etc..
Another aspect is that having trade-off's for units was a more common design goal back then than what can be said about the latest unit additions, so when the unit speed creep happened over the years, the Thor just kinda faded out of a role to fulfill over time, but hasn't been properly replaced by the Cyclone, either, as the Cyclone just too impactful all around, I think.
On a side note, I think the sentiment about Terran having a role-focussed philosophy mainly stems from mech, as we also have the Marine, which is the most versatile unit in the game that has no true counters if utilised correctly.
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To me the good solution is to force lock on to target only air units, then the dps on ground can be discussed, but yes the unit shouldn t have been an "all around" unit.
If you seek the missile course, then you would probably see missile going throught buildings while they are supposed to be higher in the sky
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Northern Ireland23134 Posts
On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone
Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game.
Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game
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On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game
Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back?
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On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game
Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it.
On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back?
You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ?
Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT.
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On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT.
My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in.
Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb.
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Northern Ireland23134 Posts
On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT.
Explain what was so fascinating and interesting about IT then for us?
Hey, nothing wrong with liking particular units or mechanics, the point you seem to be missing is people are disagreeing with you when you say ‘the community wants x’ on multiple occasions, not your personal views on the game.
If I said ‘I think it would be cool if Taylor Swift did a jazz album’, hey that’s an opinion one can take as they want, if I said ‘Swifties really want Taylor Swift to make a jazz album’ I’d be talking nonsense
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Northern Ireland23134 Posts
On December 03 2024 06:58 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT. My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in. Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb.
I could see some kind of IT unit being cool, but not in the previous form we saw it prevalent, and especially not in metas where you had high infestor counts.
Potentially cool interactions I can think of would be triggering mines, tanking tank volleys, triggering stasis traps and stuff. But even then, lings are so cheap, speedy and numerous that they do those kind of things well already
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On December 03 2024 07:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:58 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT. My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in. Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb. I could see some kind of IT unit being cool, but not in the previous form we saw it prevalent, and especially not in metas where you had high infestor counts. Potentially cool interactions I can think of would be triggering mines, tanking tank volleys, triggering stasis traps and stuff. But even then, lings are so cheap, speedy and numerous that they do those kind of things well already
There are a few takes you can take on free units in SC2, but it is so hard to hit the sweetspot. When they are game-defining, like Locust and ITs used to be, they suck. But if they are too situational, they are basically a gimmick no one needs.
I think the most important part is always to think about counter-play. There needs to be a good counterplay that makes it fun for the opponent aswell. Remember when Colossi "countered" Locusts, but every engagement the Locusts took out 2 Colossi? That is not fun, that is not a counter. In return, the counter can't be too strong, otherwise the unit becomes a gimmick again. I refer for that to WC3 and Summon Skeletons: For most of WC3s runtime, it was a gimmick, because each race had so easy counters for a stragety that took too much ressources to setup. But other Summons, especially the hero summons, always had great usages. At the start of the game especially, they don't have a direct counterplay, but that doesn't matter because they give Exp, which acts like a counter.
But without the Exp-factor I have yet to find a sweetspot for ITs. Swarm Hosts are fine now, because they are expensive, slow and have no other use except the Locust, so the Zerg can either use them as a comeback-mechanic that is hit or miss or use them to strengthen their already won map control. But ITs? Infestors are too good in a Zerg army to have that tool aswell. So if you wanted ITs back, you would probably need to put them on an entirely new unit...but then why would you give Zerg two units that do the same thing?
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Northern Ireland23134 Posts
On December 03 2024 08:25 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 07:57 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 06:58 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT. My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in. Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb. I could see some kind of IT unit being cool, but not in the previous form we saw it prevalent, and especially not in metas where you had high infestor counts. Potentially cool interactions I can think of would be triggering mines, tanking tank volleys, triggering stasis traps and stuff. But even then, lings are so cheap, speedy and numerous that they do those kind of things well already There are a few takes you can take on free units in SC2, but it is so hard to hit the sweetspot. When they are game-defining, like Locust and ITs used to be, they suck. But if they are too situational, they are basically a gimmick no one needs. I think the most important part is always to think about counter-play. There needs to be a good counterplay that makes it fun for the opponent aswell. Remember when Colossi "countered" Locusts, but every engagement the Locusts took out 2 Colossi? That is not fun, that is not a counter. In return, the counter can't be too strong, otherwise the unit becomes a gimmick again. I refer for that to WC3 and Summon Skeletons: For most of WC3s runtime, it was a gimmick, because each race had so easy counters for a stragety that took too much ressources to setup. But other Summons, especially the hero summons, always had great usages. At the start of the game especially, they don't have a direct counterplay, but that doesn't matter because they give Exp, which acts like a counter. But without the Exp-factor I have yet to find a sweetspot for ITs. Swarm Hosts are fine now, because they are expensive, slow and have no other use except the Locust, so the Zerg can either use them as a comeback-mechanic that is hit or miss or use them to strengthen their already won map control. But ITs? Infestors are too good in a Zerg army to have that tool aswell. So if you wanted ITs back, you would probably need to put them on an entirely new unit...but then why would you give Zerg two units that do the same thing?
Yeah can’t disagree with that, plus I think with just the general game flow of WC3, mana also is so precious a resource that summons aren’t ‘free’ in the same way.
While technically the same limitation existed for Infestors and their infested Terrans, in actuality it often wasn’t because IT spam would often occur in semi-stalemate games where one big engagement would settle the game, and both sides would sit posturing and pooling energy for ages
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Free units aren't fundamentally intractable, it just so happened that their implementation in SC2 has always sucked:
* With Broodlords (the worst offender) the problem is that they spawn right on top of your army, so if you don't have the dps to clear them fast enough, they body-block your army and cause your units to spazz out, which is cancerous to play against and lame to watch.
* With Swarmhosts the problem was the huge range and the fact that locusts had no downtime.
* With infested terrans the problem was that the infestors were good enough already, and ITs just tipped the balance. The fact that ITs were free units was immaterial. If ITs had been replaced by a spell with similar damage output it wouldn't have been any better
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Northern Ireland23134 Posts
On December 03 2024 11:17 Athenau wrote:
Free units aren't fundamentally intractable, it just so happened that their implementation in SC2 has always sucked:
* With Broodlords (the worst offender) the problem is that they spawn right on top of your army, so if you don't have the dps to clear them fast enough, they body-block your army and cause your units to spazz out, which is cancerous to play against and lame to watch.
* With Swarmhosts the problem was the huge range and the fact that locusts had no downtime.
* With infested terrans the problem was that the infestors were good enough already, and ITs just tipped the balance. The fact that ITs were free units was immaterial. If ITs had been replaced by a spell with similar damage output it wouldn't have been any better
Agreed on all of those points
In the bad old WoL days I remember losing a maxed army encounter where I ate some fungals, BLs moved in and I legitimately lost an entire army to basically nothing in response. I did a suciide blink and killed like two brood lords but my entire army largely got wiped without much response.
This was the time I just decided to either +2 blink or Soul TrainTM every game, where previously I’d tried to go toe to toe and play a macro game. I did much better, but I didn’t really enjoy it
Everything that could potentially shoot up just got blocked by broodings, it was silly. Insta fungal from like 8+ Infestors made a clever angling for a good engagement prohibitively difficult and if you got nailed you just died.
In those days the only time I beat my Zerg practice partners (who were usually better than me at the matchup, (I’ve sucked at PvZ forever, but have forever been good at PvT) was hiding a mothership so they didn’t know I had one and having it flank in and doing an Archon toilet.
If they knew that was in play they usually played cautiously enough to not get caught, or have a corrupter hitsquad to zone it.
Awful fucking meta, I think we’ve come a long way all told
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fking fix cyclone ffs. the game is unplayable
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On December 03 2024 11:17 Athenau wrote:
Free units aren't fundamentally intractable, it just so happened that their implementation in SC2 has always sucked:
* With Broodlords (the worst offender) the problem is that they spawn right on top of your army, so if you don't have the dps to clear them fast enough, they body-block your army and cause your units to spazz out, which is cancerous to play against and lame to watch.
* With Swarmhosts the problem was the huge range and the fact that locusts had no downtime.
* With infested terrans the problem was that the infestors were good enough already, and ITs just tipped the balance. The fact that ITs were free units was immaterial. If ITs had been replaced by a spell with similar damage output it wouldn't have been any better
infested terran were awesome, the final version that got it deleted from the game also had a 16 damage rocket launcher vs air units and could deal 11 damage at +3 completely unaffected by armor. A revert would have been nice but at the time Zerg AA was considered a huge issue. game is definitely less interesting without them
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101
EPT
