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luxon
United States111 Posts
fking fix cyclone ffs. the game is unplayable Harstem made an entire video talking about how unacceptable it was for a negligible range bug for the colossus that resulted in no difference. Now theres an insane damage bug resulting in an unprecedented playoff race composition in any HSC or any premier tournament in recent memory and of course, crickets. | ||
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thunder33
3 Posts
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Reevou
Finland23 Posts
On December 04 2024 14:54 luxon wrote: Harstem made an entire video talking about how unacceptable it was for a negligible range bug for the colossus that resulted in no difference. Now theres an insane damage bug resulting in an unprecedented playoff race composition in any HSC or any premier tournament in recent memory and of course, crickets. HSC was played on a mod that had Cyclone damage and some other bugs fixed. Same mod has been used in weekly tournament. You would have had knowledge of that if you would have watched HSC on final day. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States654 Posts
On December 04 2024 16:54 Reevou wrote: HSC was played on a mod that had Cyclone damage and some other bugs fixed. Same mod has been used in weekly tournament. You would have had knowledge of that if you would have watched HSC on final day. This gets really weird really fast, we are off to an era that is similar to brood war was at, like in order to play competitive we might have to have our own community maintained ladder in custom lobbies now.... or something like that. Realistically speaking with Blizzard/Microsoft have Starcraft 2 as a abandon ware which will not get extra investment of resources. From a business stand point of view that is how things generally are done. Some of these bugs can take ages to fix, or the turn around time. Even if these bug fixes or maintenance work is outsourced to a third party. It will still require Blizzard/Microsoft to go through internal review. Which still means it needs engineering resource to look at this, and also business resource to sign off on the release....... Which at this point , this project is super low priority. Sad | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points. But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve. SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common. We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool? I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25076 Posts
On December 05 2024 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote: All of the headaches surrounding this patch including all of the bugs it has caused are all reasons why we need to rethink how we do game balance in this game. We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points. But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve. SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common. We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool? I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run. The state of the game isn’t really getting any worse either. The community needs to take a long hard look at itself too, Many complain about maps being samey and veto anything different from standard every single pool. But how many who advocate BW’s approach really even play much Brood War? Watching is one thing, having to learn radically different, at times crazy maps is another. I’ve said it for the guts of a decade now, I’m fine using maps to balance, but it can’t be done under the current system. Which is basically a bunch of XvX ‘standard’ maps that skew different ways slightly in different matchups, and one or two non-standard maps that just get mass vetoes. We need dedicated matchup maps and a general bigger map pool. Throw in a PvZ, PvT and TvZ map that’s only queued in those matchups So long as you don’t do something like that, you can’t balance all that well by maps. It’s very hard to make a good say, PvZ map (somewhat chokey in places) that doesn’t become a good TvP map (Toss units funnelling through chokes is rather good for tank pushes and bio in general) | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On December 05 2024 08:20 WombaT wrote: I’ve said it for the guts of a decade now, I’m fine using maps to balance, but it can’t be done under the current system. Which is basically a bunch of XvX ‘standard’ maps that skew different ways slightly in different matchups, and one or two non-standard maps that just get mass vetoes. On this we agree. I don't see how it's somehow better to force everyone to play with adjusted units than it is to completely change a map pool to non-standard maps in order to shake up the meta. The intent is the same, the only difference is the ease at which you can adjust map pools vs changing the game vs unit changes. | ||
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Creager
Germany1893 Posts
On December 05 2024 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote: All of the headaches surrounding this patch including all of the bugs it has caused are all reasons why we need to rethink how we do game balance in this game. We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points. But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve. SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common. We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool? I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run. While I am in favor of doing as little balance changes as possible to the game I'm actually not certain that this approach is possible for SC2 without a drastic change in philosophy (I think over the lifespan of this game we've tried to make every unit usable across matchups as much as possible, which might be desirable on paper, but with an asymmetrical race design is just not really applicable in reality. The map pool balancing approach seems promising for pro level play, but what do you do with normal ladder play? I personally prefer having congruent map pools for both ladder and tournament play, but I could imagine that this would lead to problems in ladder play, as balance dynamics are different due to the environment (e.g. Protoss performing better in Bo1 format), with the worst case being people sitting out entire seasons if the map pool is too unfavorable for their race, potentially further hurting the the player base. On a more positive note I think it's good that we finally talk about these things and that apparently it's not just my imagination that I think over the last 10 years SC2 developed into a direction that we should take a hard look at and decide wether that's good or not (mind the survivor's bias towards the current iteration). A lot of these things ended up kinda driving me away from the game, but seeing more drastic options brought up and discussed by community figures like Artosis and PiG to kind-of "revert" the game to a better and more fun state, which in my mind it definitely has been in the past (yeah I'm bathing in nostalgia a lot for Wings and HotS minus a couple of things ofc.), is definitely sparking my interest. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
* Cyclone attacks 20% too fast * Cyclone attacks immediately after lock-on instead of after 1 second * Mothership "shoots" but doesn't do damage at max range | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3366 Posts
If it were the free units themselves, we would see complaining about auto turrets, changelings and hallucinations as well. As for the cyclone, I think it's only a heated debate now because of the bug and the fact that ppl are now trying it out. after that it will become a one unit to get, or even none at all. But the fact that it exists limits star gate options. And so we can ask ourselves, does it make sense to have a unit in the game, which only purpose is to limit options, leading to less dynamic play? As for the map discussion, this sparked an idea in my head. Mb it's time for the tournament organizers to randomize the maps for each game, no map can be repeated, and if one turns out to be too imbalanced in a matchup, screwing up tournament play, they simply ban it. I don't know, seems kind of fun. Then it would also be possible to announce the map list the day prior, if you're going into another tournament day, and players could then plan accordingly, giving tournaments more of a proleague feeling. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3366 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3366 Posts
It's always funny to hear casters talking about how shit previous metas were, while when they were in it, they didn't say anything against it at all. It's not to trash them, but not speaking out has consequences, and tricking yourself is even worse. Though, to blindly listen to casters is the even bigger mistake. The serral vs. maru era was an exciting time and we were happy to see sc2 finally get bonjwa level of players, but this was honestly only possible because protoss in the same year got gimped. If you only have to practice 2x matchups for real, it makes it waaay easier to stay consistent. And sadly it's been the same since, barring on the void ray patch, and the one after it. We tricked ourselves into thinking that maru and serral were so much ahead of the curve that the game should be balanced with serral and maru winning as part of it. With it followed a slew of other Terran and zerg champions, because guess what, they aren't so ahead of the curve as we thought. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1141 Posts
As for the map discussion, this sparked an idea in my head. Mb it's time for the tournament organizers to randomize the maps for each game, no map can be repeated, and if one turns out to be too imbalanced in a matchup, screwing up tournament play, they simply ban it. I don't know, seems kind of fun. Then it would also be possible to announce the map list the day prior, if you're going into another tournament day, and players could then plan accordingly, giving tournaments more of a proleague feeling. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but that sounds like a terrible idea. Map-Vetoes are part of the process and the "strategy". I just think it is a bit harder to balance out maps for three races and still keep them interesting compared to for example WC3 with 4. And "takin the map out" doesn't really help a player who just lost a tournament to the new mappool. It's always funny to hear casters talking about how shit previous metas were, while when they were in it, they didn't say anything against it at all. It's not to trash them, but not speaking out has consequences, and tricking yourself is even worse. Though, to blindly listen to casters is the even bigger mistake. When I started my casting-career back in the day, I remember that I did a replaycast for a game and it was horrible. One player basically just towered from his base to his opponents base. It was an awful game to cast and I didn't spare my criticsm on it, I was full on "this is prime bs"-mode. A fellow caster later on told me how exhausting it was to listen to this, so I looked into it again and he was right - my cast made the already bad game significantly worse. And that is why casters don't do that in shoutcasts and why they always seem hyped about the game and the meta, atleast during a broadcast. Because it is their job to entertain us and it isn't entertaining to hear someone whine about the meta...especially if they do that all day. We tricked ourselves into thinking that maru and serral were so much ahead of the curve that the game should be balanced with serral and maru winning as part of it. With it followed a slew of other Terran and zerg champions, because guess what, they aren't so ahead of the curve as we thought. I think it is more than fair and save to say that Serral and Maru were completly ahead of the curve. And yes, if they are, the game should be balanced so that it is a part of it. Because if you balance the game only so that the one or two best player(s) don't dominate, you essentially kill any competitive thought behind it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25076 Posts
On December 06 2024 17:23 ejozl wrote: I also think the best thing from these horrendous patches has been the discussion around it. Casters will often trick themselves into thinking the game is perfectly balanced and that it is always the most exciting time right now, because their job is to be excited and non-biased. If a caster thinks something is wrong with the game, it would convince some ppl that mb it's not the greatest thing ever, which would, I guess "harm" the game? It's always funny to hear casters talking about how shit previous metas were, while when they were in it, they didn't say anything against it at all. It's not to trash them, but not speaking out has consequences, and tricking yourself is even worse. Though, to blindly listen to casters is the even bigger mistake. The serral vs. maru era was an exciting time and we were happy to see sc2 finally get bonjwa level of players, but this was honestly only possible because protoss in the same year got gimped. If you only have to practice 2x matchups for real, it makes it waaay easier to stay consistent. And sadly it's been the same since, barring on the void ray patch, and the one after it. We tricked ourselves into thinking that maru and serral were so much ahead of the curve that the game should be balanced with serral and maru winning as part of it. With it followed a slew of other Terran and zerg champions, because guess what, they aren't so ahead of the curve as we thought. Those two are/have been ahead of the curve for long periods compared to some of their racial peers to be fair. As per usual I think you’re being hyperbolic and unrealistic about Toss prospects. | ||
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allmotor1
152 Posts
On December 03 2024 22:28 DeeJae_ wrote: fking fix cyclone ffs. the game is unplayable I've been out of the loop, what's up with the cyclones? When I get protoss all I know is, I am usually able to stop double fac cyclone but past few games, I just could not stop them... | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On December 07 2024 03:34 allmotor1 wrote: I've been out of the loop, what's up with the cyclones? When I get protoss all I know is, I am usually able to stop double fac cyclone but past few games, I just could not stop them... Simply put they are bugged and dealing a lot more damage than they should be right now. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25076 Posts
On December 07 2024 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote: Simply put they are bugged and dealing a lot more damage than they should be right now. It’s fixed now though isn’t it? Least what I read Also @allmotor they changed the Cyclone back to the old version, the one that required a tech lab. So that older iteration has returned. Whatever happened in swapping back to that they introduced a bug so it was the old Cyclone but on steroids and its DPS was noticeably higher than intended. So a brief period of misery for many, a bunch of Terran cyclone abusers who’ve pushed their MMR into realms it has no business being. But from what I’m reading it’s fixed now, and those Terrans will be stomped back to where they should be, so all is right with the world | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3366 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12161 Posts
On November 27 2024 03:22 Nebuchad wrote: Fairly certain that protoss is the best race now, especially in combination with the new maps that are less terran favored. Maybe Maxpax wins the next ESL thingy, how about that. Did I nail this, I think I nailed this. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25076 Posts
Think it’s premature, Toss doing well in weeklies isn’t exactly unheard of. I’m definitely interested to see how it goes when/if more regular larger tournies start up again | ||
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