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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone
Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game.
Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game
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On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game
Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back?
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On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game
Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it.
On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back?
You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ?
Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT.
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On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT.
My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in.
Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb.
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT.
Explain what was so fascinating and interesting about IT then for us?
Hey, nothing wrong with liking particular units or mechanics, the point you seem to be missing is people are disagreeing with you when you say ‘the community wants x’ on multiple occasions, not your personal views on the game.
If I said ‘I think it would be cool if Taylor Swift did a jazz album’, hey that’s an opinion one can take as they want, if I said ‘Swifties really want Taylor Swift to make a jazz album’ I’d be talking nonsense
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On December 03 2024 06:58 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT. My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in. Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb.
I could see some kind of IT unit being cool, but not in the previous form we saw it prevalent, and especially not in metas where you had high infestor counts.
Potentially cool interactions I can think of would be triggering mines, tanking tank volleys, triggering stasis traps and stuff. But even then, lings are so cheap, speedy and numerous that they do those kind of things well already
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On December 03 2024 07:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 06:58 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT. My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in. Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb. I could see some kind of IT unit being cool, but not in the previous form we saw it prevalent, and especially not in metas where you had high infestor counts. Potentially cool interactions I can think of would be triggering mines, tanking tank volleys, triggering stasis traps and stuff. But even then, lings are so cheap, speedy and numerous that they do those kind of things well already
There are a few takes you can take on free units in SC2, but it is so hard to hit the sweetspot. When they are game-defining, like Locust and ITs used to be, they suck. But if they are too situational, they are basically a gimmick no one needs.
I think the most important part is always to think about counter-play. There needs to be a good counterplay that makes it fun for the opponent aswell. Remember when Colossi "countered" Locusts, but every engagement the Locusts took out 2 Colossi? That is not fun, that is not a counter. In return, the counter can't be too strong, otherwise the unit becomes a gimmick again. I refer for that to WC3 and Summon Skeletons: For most of WC3s runtime, it was a gimmick, because each race had so easy counters for a stragety that took too much ressources to setup. But other Summons, especially the hero summons, always had great usages. At the start of the game especially, they don't have a direct counterplay, but that doesn't matter because they give Exp, which acts like a counter.
But without the Exp-factor I have yet to find a sweetspot for ITs. Swarm Hosts are fine now, because they are expensive, slow and have no other use except the Locust, so the Zerg can either use them as a comeback-mechanic that is hit or miss or use them to strengthen their already won map control. But ITs? Infestors are too good in a Zerg army to have that tool aswell. So if you wanted ITs back, you would probably need to put them on an entirely new unit...but then why would you give Zerg two units that do the same thing?
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On December 03 2024 08:25 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 07:57 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 06:58 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 06:40 Vision_ wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Damned my traduction of versatile is wrong, ... forget about it. On December 03 2024 06:17 Balnazza wrote:On December 03 2024 04:11 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 00:53 Vision_ wrote:On December 02 2024 21:13 Creager wrote:On December 01 2024 23:15 Vision_ wrote:
Cyclones is really fast while he can do a ton of damage. His speed is actually the same than marines or marauders when they stimed, which is good. Unfortunetly, a lot of units can be denied too easily in the start of the game even if TvT can looks good. A small tweak should be done to reduce his speed while lock on is activated No thanks, I'd rather see the Cyclone removed entirely as it does way more than simply being a role unit as it initially was supposed to be. If they can tweak it so you can get 1-2 for very specific purposes like repelling Oracle harass in TvP without straight-up nullifying it altogether, that'd be somewhat fine, I guess, but repeated changes/tweaks have shown that it's apparently very hard to make the unit fit just right into Terran's arsenal. Watching Cyclones dominating the battlefield regardless of matchup was simply dumb to watch, and I say this as a mech Terran. The problem is Terran isn t designed for being played with versatile units while zerg are. In that regards and it s my opinion, if you want to keep the mind of terran, units must fit a role, that s how terran unit works with a really good synergy while zerg could assume to push with two different types of units only, for example. I haven t been accurate on the amount of speed reduction but i think your comments is pretty accurate since cyclone looks to please a majority of players even if i dislike the fact that thors looks less interesting, i would have prefered a mix between thors and cyclone. Then if a 3D professionnal is free at this moment i would be happy if he can design the transformation from thor to cyclone Marines/marauders combined with medivacs gives you one of the most versatile and potent basic unit comps on the whole game. Where are you getting the idea the cyclone pleases the majority of players? It’s one of the most disliked units in the game Probably the same survey he did that made it clear for him that "the community" wants the infested terran back? You right, i shouldn t have done a survey on infested terrans, it seems terrible how much people are disturbed about it many years ago. Can you manage to sleep at least, since i posted this thread ? Then if u aren t able to understand that IT was fun to play and watch in a RTS game, i can consider that you are more playing for competition and violence and that s the reason and i don t care about your opinion on IT. My dude, it doesn't matter what I want. People back in the day disliked the Infested Terrans as they disliked the Swarm Host/Locust. Because free units in a game that is about economy is hard to balance out. And even as someone who personally never had much grievance with the unit, I can admit that it looked silly when they just popped up, destroyed entire armies and then the Zerglings rolled in. Free units in SC2 are not fun. And you will probably never really make them fun, because how much they stick out like a sore thumb. I could see some kind of IT unit being cool, but not in the previous form we saw it prevalent, and especially not in metas where you had high infestor counts. Potentially cool interactions I can think of would be triggering mines, tanking tank volleys, triggering stasis traps and stuff. But even then, lings are so cheap, speedy and numerous that they do those kind of things well already There are a few takes you can take on free units in SC2, but it is so hard to hit the sweetspot. When they are game-defining, like Locust and ITs used to be, they suck. But if they are too situational, they are basically a gimmick no one needs. I think the most important part is always to think about counter-play. There needs to be a good counterplay that makes it fun for the opponent aswell. Remember when Colossi "countered" Locusts, but every engagement the Locusts took out 2 Colossi? That is not fun, that is not a counter. In return, the counter can't be too strong, otherwise the unit becomes a gimmick again. I refer for that to WC3 and Summon Skeletons: For most of WC3s runtime, it was a gimmick, because each race had so easy counters for a stragety that took too much ressources to setup. But other Summons, especially the hero summons, always had great usages. At the start of the game especially, they don't have a direct counterplay, but that doesn't matter because they give Exp, which acts like a counter. But without the Exp-factor I have yet to find a sweetspot for ITs. Swarm Hosts are fine now, because they are expensive, slow and have no other use except the Locust, so the Zerg can either use them as a comeback-mechanic that is hit or miss or use them to strengthen their already won map control. But ITs? Infestors are too good in a Zerg army to have that tool aswell. So if you wanted ITs back, you would probably need to put them on an entirely new unit...but then why would you give Zerg two units that do the same thing?
Yeah can’t disagree with that, plus I think with just the general game flow of WC3, mana also is so precious a resource that summons aren’t ‘free’ in the same way.
While technically the same limitation existed for Infestors and their infested Terrans, in actuality it often wasn’t because IT spam would often occur in semi-stalemate games where one big engagement would settle the game, and both sides would sit posturing and pooling energy for ages
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Free units aren't fundamentally intractable, it just so happened that their implementation in SC2 has always sucked:
* With Broodlords (the worst offender) the problem is that they spawn right on top of your army, so if you don't have the dps to clear them fast enough, they body-block your army and cause your units to spazz out, which is cancerous to play against and lame to watch.
* With Swarmhosts the problem was the huge range and the fact that locusts had no downtime.
* With infested terrans the problem was that the infestors were good enough already, and ITs just tipped the balance. The fact that ITs were free units was immaterial. If ITs had been replaced by a spell with similar damage output it wouldn't have been any better
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On December 03 2024 11:17 Athenau wrote:
Free units aren't fundamentally intractable, it just so happened that their implementation in SC2 has always sucked:
* With Broodlords (the worst offender) the problem is that they spawn right on top of your army, so if you don't have the dps to clear them fast enough, they body-block your army and cause your units to spazz out, which is cancerous to play against and lame to watch.
* With Swarmhosts the problem was the huge range and the fact that locusts had no downtime.
* With infested terrans the problem was that the infestors were good enough already, and ITs just tipped the balance. The fact that ITs were free units was immaterial. If ITs had been replaced by a spell with similar damage output it wouldn't have been any better
Agreed on all of those points
In the bad old WoL days I remember losing a maxed army encounter where I ate some fungals, BLs moved in and I legitimately lost an entire army to basically nothing in response. I did a suciide blink and killed like two brood lords but my entire army largely got wiped without much response.
This was the time I just decided to either +2 blink or Soul TrainTM every game, where previously I’d tried to go toe to toe and play a macro game. I did much better, but I didn’t really enjoy it
Everything that could potentially shoot up just got blocked by broodings, it was silly. Insta fungal from like 8+ Infestors made a clever angling for a good engagement prohibitively difficult and if you got nailed you just died.
In those days the only time I beat my Zerg practice partners (who were usually better than me at the matchup, (I’ve sucked at PvZ forever, but have forever been good at PvT) was hiding a mothership so they didn’t know I had one and having it flank in and doing an Archon toilet.
If they knew that was in play they usually played cautiously enough to not get caught, or have a corrupter hitsquad to zone it.
Awful fucking meta, I think we’ve come a long way all told
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fking fix cyclone ffs. the game is unplayable
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On December 03 2024 11:17 Athenau wrote:
Free units aren't fundamentally intractable, it just so happened that their implementation in SC2 has always sucked:
* With Broodlords (the worst offender) the problem is that they spawn right on top of your army, so if you don't have the dps to clear them fast enough, they body-block your army and cause your units to spazz out, which is cancerous to play against and lame to watch.
* With Swarmhosts the problem was the huge range and the fact that locusts had no downtime.
* With infested terrans the problem was that the infestors were good enough already, and ITs just tipped the balance. The fact that ITs were free units was immaterial. If ITs had been replaced by a spell with similar damage output it wouldn't have been any better
infested terran were awesome, the final version that got it deleted from the game also had a 16 damage rocket launcher vs air units and could deal 11 damage at +3 completely unaffected by armor. A revert would have been nice but at the time Zerg AA was considered a huge issue. game is definitely less interesting without them
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fking fix cyclone ffs. the game is unplayable
Harstem made an entire video talking about how unacceptable it was for a negligible range bug for the colossus that resulted in no difference.
Now theres an insane damage bug resulting in an unprecedented playoff race composition in any HSC or any premier tournament in recent memory and of course, crickets.
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Now I really fear for Starcraft. The future of the game has been entrusted not only to people without talent!
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On December 04 2024 14:54 luxon wrote:Harstem made an entire video talking about how unacceptable it was for a negligible range bug for the colossus that resulted in no difference. Now theres an insane damage bug resulting in an unprecedented playoff race composition in any HSC or any premier tournament in recent memory and of course, crickets.
HSC was played on a mod that had Cyclone damage and some other bugs fixed. Same mod has been used in weekly tournament. You would have had knowledge of that if you would have watched HSC on final day.
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On December 04 2024 16:54 Reevou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2024 14:54 luxon wrote:fking fix cyclone ffs. the game is unplayable
Harstem made an entire video talking about how unacceptable it was for a negligible range bug for the colossus that resulted in no difference. Now theres an insane damage bug resulting in an unprecedented playoff race composition in any HSC or any premier tournament in recent memory and of course, crickets. HSC was played on a mod that had Cyclone damage and some other bugs fixed. Same mod has been used in weekly tournament. You would have had knowledge of that if you would have watched HSC on final day.
This gets really weird really fast, we are off to an era that is similar to brood war was at, like in order to play competitive we might have to have our own community maintained ladder in custom lobbies now.... or something like that.
Realistically speaking with Blizzard/Microsoft have Starcraft 2 as a abandon ware which will not get extra investment of resources. From a business stand point of view that is how things generally are done. Some of these bugs can take ages to fix, or the turn around time.
Even if these bug fixes or maintenance work is outsourced to a third party. It will still require Blizzard/Microsoft to go through internal review. Which still means it needs engineering resource to look at this, and also business resource to sign off on the release....... Which at this point , this project is super low priority. Sad
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All of the headaches surrounding this patch including all of the bugs it has caused are all reasons why we need to rethink how we do game balance in this game.
We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points.
But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve.
SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common.
We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool?
I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run.
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On December 05 2024 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
All of the headaches surrounding this patch including all of the bugs it has caused are all reasons why we need to rethink how we do game balance in this game.
We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points.
But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve.
SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common.
We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool?
I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run.
The state of the game isn’t really getting any worse either.
The community needs to take a long hard look at itself too,
Many complain about maps being samey and veto anything different from standard every single pool.
But how many who advocate BW’s approach really even play much Brood War? Watching is one thing, having to learn radically different, at times crazy maps is another.
I’ve said it for the guts of a decade now, I’m fine using maps to balance, but it can’t be done under the current system. Which is basically a bunch of XvX ‘standard’ maps that skew different ways slightly in different matchups, and one or two non-standard maps that just get mass vetoes.
We need dedicated matchup maps and a general bigger map pool. Throw in a PvZ, PvT and TvZ map that’s only queued in those matchups
So long as you don’t do something like that, you can’t balance all that well by maps. It’s very hard to make a good say, PvZ map (somewhat chokey in places) that doesn’t become a good TvP map (Toss units funnelling through chokes is rather good for tank pushes and bio in general)
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On December 05 2024 08:20 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2024 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
All of the headaches surrounding this patch including all of the bugs it has caused are all reasons why we need to rethink how we do game balance in this game.
We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points.
But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve.
SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common.
We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool?
I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run. I’ve said it for the guts of a decade now, I’m fine using maps to balance, but it can’t be done under the current system. Which is basically a bunch of XvX ‘standard’ maps that skew different ways slightly in different matchups, and one or two non-standard maps that just get mass vetoes.
On this we agree. I don't see how it's somehow better to force everyone to play with adjusted units than it is to completely change a map pool to non-standard maps in order to shake up the meta. The intent is the same, the only difference is the ease at which you can adjust map pools vs changing the game vs unit changes.
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On December 05 2024 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
All of the headaches surrounding this patch including all of the bugs it has caused are all reasons why we need to rethink how we do game balance in this game.
We shouldn't be trying to solve everything with balance patches. First of all because we are NEVER going to fix what is wrong with Protoss with a balance patch, I've ranted about this dozens of times so I won't bring up the same old points.
But secondly, because every single time we patch the game we have the potential to cause more problems than we solve.
SC2 should learn from Brood War's example and embrace game balance via the map pool. I'm not saying we should NEVER patch the game ever again, if for no other reason we should patch it to revert the badly thought out changes of the balance council. But we should make patching the game a much more uncommon thing and we should make updating the map pool more common.
We just saw how much impact a map pool that favors Terran has on the game at the pro level. Why can't we make a concerted effort to give Protoss a more favorable map pool?
I just know that our current approach isn't working. The state of the game isn't getting any better, and the balance whining is getting MUCH worse because the community now knows that the game balancers are willing to make changes just to appease the masses on reddit even if they aren't good for the game in the long run.
While I am in favor of doing as little balance changes as possible to the game I'm actually not certain that this approach is possible for SC2 without a drastic change in philosophy (I think over the lifespan of this game we've tried to make every unit usable across matchups as much as possible, which might be desirable on paper, but with an asymmetrical race design is just not really applicable in reality.
The map pool balancing approach seems promising for pro level play, but what do you do with normal ladder play? I personally prefer having congruent map pools for both ladder and tournament play, but I could imagine that this would lead to problems in ladder play, as balance dynamics are different due to the environment (e.g. Protoss performing better in Bo1 format), with the worst case being people sitting out entire seasons if the map pool is too unfavorable for their race, potentially further hurting the the player base.
On a more positive note I think it's good that we finally talk about these things and that apparently it's not just my imagination that I think over the last 10 years SC2 developed into a direction that we should take a hard look at and decide wether that's good or not (mind the survivor's bias towards the current iteration). A lot of these things ended up kinda driving me away from the game, but seeing more drastic options brought up and discussed by community figures like Artosis and PiG to kind-of "revert" the game to a better and more fun state, which in my mind it definitely has been in the past (yeah I'm bathing in nostalgia a lot for Wings and HotS minus a couple of things ofc.), is definitely sparking my interest.
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EPT
