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Because an immortal does 50 damage. Can a stalker do that?
Also, an immortal = 2 stalkers, but the immortal doesn't have it's dps "cut in half when it's shields are down. The 2 stalkers however, lose 50% dps when one goes down.
It doesn't matter if he tries to focus the immortals, that just means the zealots get free shots because immortals are powerful tanks. Also, it's quite hard to kite a unit that has 1 less range, even if it's faster.
Pretend for example, your stalker attacks an immortal 4 times, but if the immortal strikes once, then it has done 10 more damage. The stalker only does a pathetic 14 damage vs armored, but hardened shields allow it to be 10 only.
Also, immortals don't over-kill.
obviously you don't micro when you play. immortals don't over-kill? so you don't tell them what targets to attack? lol
how are your zealots going to get free hits vs 5 stalkers? by running faster than them?
sorry but 5 stalkers > 1 stalker 1 immortal while i build up my zealot count.
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On February 10 2011 10:20 VanGooL wrote:
SsTVanGooL.831
I'd be happy to!
Post replays and results!! Really want to see how it goes.
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We did it once on SoW and i slightly screwed up my timings (The 2nd warp of 4 zealots came wayyyy to late, with me having to retreat the stalkers to give vision to the pylon.), he held it well.
Nevertheless he did it way better than my friend.
He had to go to bed so we'll do it again some other day.
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On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote:Dude, I love you kcdc. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187722.jpg) Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
Unfortunately this player didn't get a zealot before stalker while cyber was going up. His warpgate tech hits 10 seconds quicker but he wasted so much time checking his base and not doing the purpose of the build. To kill you.
@5:50 you should have 1 zealot 6 stalker and you should poke up the ramp as soon as possible to know if you can just get up and kill him.
If he had done the build proper he would've had 1 zealot 6 stalker vs your 2 zealots 1 stalker and an immortal popping soon. Regardless he can kill your zealots and your stalker while warping in more zealots than you and kill your immortal the second it comes out.
Mithra.613 if anyone wants to see.
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This is a strategy I enjoy using in PvP games for a long time now. I, however, had modified it in a way that has proven exceptionally beneficial in my experience. I changed the build order slightly to get the build running for a good timing push or effective counter attack. By switching up the build order, you can get 4-6 zealots and BOTH immortals out by roughly 5:30-5:45 if performed flawlessly, all without cutting any probes. The 4-6 varies depending on how safe you feel early on and whether you produce your first zealot earlier or later. I didn't include the food count, but the desired order is there. You'll also note I purposely supply block myself momentarily by chronoboosting first. This is largely my personal preference and I have found it to be no detriment whatsoever compared to doing a pylon on 9. Just place everything the instant you can afford it. And remember that your goal is to get to the robo. Cut other structures and zealots/stalkers/sentries in so far as you feel safe.
Chronoboost
Pylon
Gateway
Gas
Pylon
Cybernetics
Pylon
Robo
You want to chronoboost probes exclusively, then start saving chronoboost once you start the robo. Keep a steady output of zealots the moment you can afford them without cutting structures. Use your saved Chronoboost exclusively for the Immortals until they both come out. That's pretty much it. Throw down additional gateways as you can afford them. Obviously, you'll want to get the warpgate tech, but with this build you can delay it a fairly significant amount of time. Now I have my own little tactical twist that I also add for bonus kick, but it is by no means necessary and may even be a tad risky depending on the situation.
BONUS:
build your robo outside of your base. If you want to be a tad cheesy, you can proxy it closer to his base. If you want to be more on the safe side, then the important thing is only that it is across from your entrance out of view of your opponent's path. Exact location depends on map and positioning. Be creative. The idea here is two fold.
1) it hides your tech
2) if he attacks first, his stalkers will be taking up the rear. Your zealots will block off your ramp and occupy his zealots at the front, while your immortals come out from behind (where the stalkers will inevitably be) and take THEM up the proverbial "rear." You'll have done enough damage in that short time before he can bring reinforcements that everything after that will be cleanup. If he doesn't attack, you still have your effective composition and an effective timing push that can easily be game ending. If it doesn't end the game, you'll still be in good position to transition through mid game.
This has also proven very useful against both Zerg and Terran, depending on their builds. Scouting is key.
Weaknesses of this build should be fairly obvious (air and mass zealots), so scout, scout, scout to make sure it's viable.
I've also adapted this build to a large number of circumstances where it held up even to builds that many would think could beat it with usually only subtle tweaks (such as sim-city and good micro) that let it function pretty much with little or no hiccups.
If anyone has questions feel free to ask. It's late here and I'm getting ready to go to sleep, so I'm probably not in my best frame of mind to make clear, coherent sentences. Also, this is a PvP thread, so I didn't elaborate on using this against T or Z. If you have any questions on those match-ups, let me know and I can go into depth on those.
Peace!
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I don't know why the 10 gate is starting to get discussed here...because imo that's like a completely different scenario. The classic hard 4-gate gets a 12/13 gate, spends 3 chronos on probes and still (!) cuts probes at 20. With a 10 gate you may get your first warp-in earlier but you don't have the economy to match the 1 zealot 6 stalker into immediate 4 zealot-warp.
Nowadays I only see 10 gating when the opponent tries to korean warpgate me. Against 10-gates I play completely differently, once I see a quick cybercore getting thrown down. I chrono-boost my first zealot before the core (my warpgates won't be done before his anyways), after the core I chrono-boost the 2nd zealot. With those 2 I go aggressively probe-harassing. Rushing-distance won't matter, because there's only 2 things that can happen.
a) you kill much stuff in his base. Perfect. Mission accomplished, build stuff at home and be fine.
b) he protects his base by building units. Perfect. Run your zealots back home, your economy is better now and his timings screwed. Use the 2 zealots and probes to defend against the initial warp-in, after your warpgates are done you have won.
Even if you don't like this playstyle at all, I think playing vs 10 gate requires a whole different approach. Also it's easy to scout it.
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Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
It seems you have to take your 2nd gas immediately after the 4gate timing is over and drop another gateway and produce only stalkers, or you will most likely lose to a single voidray Stalker/Zealot or Stalker/3Void push..
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On February 10 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote:
Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
It seems you have to take your 2nd gas immediately after the 4gate timing is over and drop another gateway and produce only stalkers, or you will most likely lose to a single voidray Stalker/Zealot or Stalker/3Void push..
Better scouting imo.
You need 2 gaz to support starport+vr.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Apologies if this has been asked, because the thread is long:
Doesn't scouting on an already somewhat late 13-gate leave you open to all kinds of cheese? Esp. on a 4 player map.
I'm not sure how a late-scout 13-gate is gonna hold off 2 gate proxies or cannon rushes :/
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On February 10 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote:
Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate?
Since Voidrays need lots of gas, there's just no way a 3 gate voidray that hits in any near future would look like a 4 gate....I mean, the stargate alone costs fully 50 gas more than a robo, so does each individual voidray compared to an immortal.
Gas-wise you can get an immortal + a stalker for each voidray. No way this could be done off one gas in any time where this would matter (meaning before you'd build an observer because no 4 gate comes)
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I must say I like it even more when I get 12 Gate 14 Gas. The timing might not be as smooth as with your bo, but that way it looks EXACTLY like a 4 Gate. The worth of messing with your opponent's head can not be weighed in minerals.
It's so cool if you open like this and your opponent goes for a defensive 4 gate.
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I ran ~5 tests on this with different types of 4 gates and it held easily in every case. The fastest 4 gate of the tests was when I 4 gated a friend who was trying the build for the 2nd time (first was on ladder) and despite my attacking before 5:50 and his getting the immortal out about 5-10 seconds later than I would (his 2nd try, cut him some slack), he held pretty easily. I really think this holds anything close to a standard 4 gate. Against something crazy like a K4G or an 8 gate into 3 gate stalker all-in, I don't think this is your best bet, but if they're making 20 probes before attacking, you're probably going to be ok with this opening.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'd really like an answer to:
"Doesn't scouting on an already somewhat late 13-gate leave you open to all kinds of cheese? Esp. on a 4 player map.
I'm not sure how a late-scout 13-gate is gonna hold off 2 gate proxies or cannon rushes :/"
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On February 10 2011 23:34 marvellosity wrote:
I'd really like an answer to:
"Doesn't scouting on an already somewhat late 13-gate leave you open to all kinds of cheese? Esp. on a 4 player map.
I'm not sure how a late-scout 13-gate is gonna hold off 2 gate proxies or cannon rushes :/"
The thread isn't that long, man. Just show all and then Ctrl-F 'cheese'.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Sorry  But how do I show all? Else I would.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Ok, I ended up reading the thread but I'm still a little queasy.
e.g. Shakuras, double 10 gate proxy. You scout after 13 gate and get to my base at maybe 17 supply? In less than a minute after that 3 zealots are in your base with 2 more following.
Seems a lateish gate with late scout is almost a BO loss to such things?
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This is one of my favorite builds. IT can beat the 4 gate and u can transition into about anything u want. This is about the safest toss build i have found. kcdc does a great job on the detail of this build. If more toss players will start using this build then we might stop hearing how the 4 gate is unstoppable.
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Okey let me post an replay:
This is the 4 gate that you need to defend. all 10 gate 4 gates you can win by just getting some early gateways and chrono some stalkers and zealots and not warp tech and be ahead.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137477-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
I have 30 s free time in your base with 2 z 4s vs 2 z 1s. With that time i can snipe 2 pylons, or maybe a robo, but it is more risky, if i only gets it down to 100 health and your immortal spawns or some probes and stop your mining or anything.
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On February 10 2011 23:58 marvellosity wrote:
Ok, I ended up reading the thread but I'm still a little queasy.
e.g. Shakuras, double 10 gate proxy. You scout after 13 gate and get to my base at maybe 17 supply? In less than a minute after that 3 zealots are in your base with 2 more following.
Seems a lateish gate with late scout is almost a BO loss to such things?
Ok.... so scout on 9? I don't get why you guys think this build would lose to cheese as opposed to other builds. Cheese is couted before you even put down your damn cyber. If you're worried about it scout on 9 and adjust accordingly.......
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On February 10 2011 22:07 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote:
Got any idea how to beat a 3gate Voidray that is made to look like a 4gate? Since Voidrays need lots of gas, there's just no way a 3 gate voidray that hits in any near future would look like a 4 gate....I mean, the stargate alone costs fully 50 gas more than a robo, so does each individual voidray compared to an immortal. Gas-wise you can get an immortal + a stalker for each voidray. No way this could be done off one gas in any time where this would matter (meaning before you'd build an observer because no 4 gate comes)
After he kills my scouting he grabs another gas and spends the next gas he has on a Stargate, the push comes when by the time you have your second immortal
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EPT
