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Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead.
[G] PvP 1-gas 2-gate robo opening - Page 4
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Dsn4001
Korea (South)106 Posts
Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
if other masters protoss is interested in helping each other building a build like this up add me FlatLine.637 (NA Server) | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Easy - my execution sucked, no need to ask for help when I haven't done everything right building-wise on my part. This definitely shouldn't have been a "blah this build doesn't work"-remark, more a "hmm...this could create troubles"-remark. On February 09 2011 09:36 kcdc wrote: In a zealot vs zealot fight, immortals provide slightly better support (for cost) than stalkers do. They do the same DPS, but immortals can tank about double the hits. Given the same DPS, it's better to have one unit with double the health than spread the DPS over two units because at half damage, it's better to have an immortal at 50% health than have 1 of 2 stalkers die. I definitely agree, zealot/immortal normally wins clearly against zealot/stalker. Nevertheless the problem is/was that at this exact point in time you simply lack the sheer numbers...in my opinion (meaning, I basicly don't have a clear understanding yet) it's absolutely crucial that you are able to micro your immortal onto their stalkers. If you leave your immortal shooting at zealots, you probably die, because when both sides lose all meatshield, he'll warp in 4 more zealots and your reinforcements consist of 2 zealots and the 2nd immortal that's about to pop. Oh yeah, another remark regarding building-placement that I found out the hard way. It's NOT a good idea to put the robotics down anywhere near the front. Nope, it's not what you may think, that they focus-fire the robotics...well, they do, but that's not the problem. If they can kill it, you/I/we sucked anyways. The problem is, that the frickin immortal spawns right in front of them, providing a nice target. I'm currently theory-crafting about perfect building-placements. For now I'm thinking about something like the first gateway facing towards the ramp, the core a bit more behind, the 2nd gateway directly in front of the core - so that they basicly see 2 gateways first and can't hit the core straight away. The robotics pretty far in the back, so it doesn't matter when they push you back deep inside your base. In one match against a decent opponent, I had to take on the fight with just zealots to avoid my 2nd immortal spawning directly "among" the opponents zealots. This has to be prevented under any circumstances. | ||
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gardis
Switzerland18 Posts
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc. Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead. this is not a prober 4 Gate. the goal of a 4 gas allin is to attack right away and not wait 20 seconds in front of a base, also 1 stalker was in the middle of the map. if u check out at 5:50, if he would attack you with the stuff that he got there, how u wanna hold that? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 09 2011 19:52 gardis wrote: this is not a prober 4 Gate. the goal of a 4 gas allin is to attack right away and not wait 20 seconds in front of a base, also 1 stalker was in the middle of the map. if u check out at 5:50, if he would attack you with the stuff that he got there, how u wanna hold that? Dsn also didn't execute the build optimally. He got his gas late, he queued up an extra probe which made his zealot late which in turn made his stalker late, and because his stalker and gas were late, his robo was late, thereby making his immortal late. You can have the immortal before 6 minutes if you do everything perfectly. | ||
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gardis
Switzerland18 Posts
On February 09 2011 21:22 kcdc wrote: Dsn also didn't execute the build optimally. He got his gas late, he queued up an extra probe which made his zealot late which in turn made his stalker late, and because his stalker and gas were late, his robo was late, thereby making his immortal late. You can have the immortal before 6 minutes if you do everything perfectly. then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds  | ||
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Blessed
United Kingdom235 Posts
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SaJa
France84 Posts
Maybe you help us to be our hero which is the case (I've seen many pgm talking about you on streamlive) but you make yourself in danger in a deep futur :p Anyway, I would like to ask you something. You saying that the worse counter vs your 4g counter is 2 gaz phenix or whatever. What about if we steal one gaz from our opponent to force him to make 4g (which give us a good advantage if we going for your 1g robo build) ? Does it delay the build order that much ? | ||
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turbopasca1
Moldova41 Posts
On February 09 2011 21:35 gardis wrote: then i hope i will see soon 2 perfect executed builds watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order . | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On February 09 2011 21:40 Blessed wrote: kcdc if you have solved PvP you deserve to be hailed as a hero, for not just this but your PvT FE Care to share the PvT build? I've been doing a 1 gate expo at 24 and then adding 2 gates and a robo, it works sometimes but then fails other times. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:41 GreEny K wrote: Care to share the PvT build? I've been doing a 1 gate expo at 24 and then adding 2 gates and a robo, it works sometimes but then fails other times. 13 gate 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core 19 zealot (chrono to attack) 22 pylon stalker + warp gate (chrono to attack) stalker you will have around 28-32 supply while moving out, you will have a huge amount of minerals (300+) throw down a nexus + pylon 2 gates and a robo chrono depends on the terran you can chrono your probes if you see a passive FE terran attack with your scouting probe, zealot, and stalker (together) and you'll be able to take out marines if he has any or possibly marauders. trading a zealot for a marauder is always good. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
This build is quite hard to scout and doesn't use sentries which I really like about it. That alone makes it much harder to scout and gives it much more potential to push against FE builds and the like. I believe that sentries are terrible units in PvP and should be avoided as much as possible as they take away valuable gas from other units and have a very minimal impact on fights. I don't think the 13 gas is neccesary for this build though. Your gas will be a very minimal time faster then a 14 gas with 2 chronoboost right away and it does hurt your eco a fair bit. Instead I'd just go normal and have the robo just a few secs later, but with 1 more chronoboost on warpgate tech. This will let you have your WG up a bit faster and thus your first 2 warped in zealots and subsequent ones faster while having your immortals just a bit later. I think that is slightly better for a couple reasons: - you won't have a probe cut, meaning slightly better eco and a even harder to scout build. - if the opponent scouts well he will have his probe still around while you want to put down that slightly faster robo, delaying it that 5 secs will make it less likely for him to see it. - you can really get a 100% used gateway more easily. The key to using a 2 gate robo build imo is partially in fitting your WG tech exactly with the time your last zealot finishes. WG tech = 140 secs, zealot = 38 secs, stalker = 42 secs. CB takes 10 secs of build time. => if you want make to 3 units out of your gate before WG finishes you want to boost warpgate two times more then your gateway. For example 1 boost on gate 3 on WG will result in your last zealot and wg tech finishing near exactly the same moment. Likewise with 2 on WG 0 on gate. Tuning your build to use one of each option is the best way imo. | ||
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Valefort
France228 Posts
Sure you will kill some stalkers but at equal micro he'll still do a fair amount of damage, i'm not sure of the outcome. Second problem is, this composition is weak against 4 gates with heavy sentries composition. Splitting the army and killing zealots is perfectly feasible in pvp. If you try to go for colossi too quickly you'll lose because you won't have enough immortals and if you're too slow he'll probably have enough income to beat you with a superior blink/charge gateway army. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
1st replay: Cross positions Metalopolis, opponent's warpgate research finishes with 50 chrono energy on the nexus. But then he doesn't attack you when he has a window of 30 seconds until your immortal finishes (at 6:10) but rather just chills in front of your base and then attacks when your immortal spawns. 2nd replay: 4th gate gets built at 340 minerals (...) and then completely garbage micro ensues. Loses units with superior stalker count (I mean cmon, they are the fastest ground unit in PvP), idles zealots in your main, lets his zealots get trapped by your ones, tries to focus the robo ... etc. I imagine that 1 Zealot 6 Stalker, which is ready at 5:40 in a well executed 1 gas 4gate completely rapes the 2 zealot 1 stalker you have at the time, in the replays warpgates finish at 6:00, so you could probably squeeze out 4 Zealot 1 Stalker when the 4gate initially hits. But you are still getting kited and losing units and then the reinforcements make for 5 Zealots and 6 Stalkers vs your (at best) 4 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal. | ||
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turbopasca1
Moldova41 Posts
On February 09 2011 23:30 ChickenLips wrote: I would really like to see this build perform against a properly executed 4gate, until then I still think the standard 1 gas 4gate beats it. Lets look at the replays: 1st replay: Cross positions Metalopolis, opponent's warpgate research finishes with 50 chrono energy on the nexus. But then he doesn't attack you when he has a window of 30 seconds until your immortal finishes (at 6:10) but rather just chills in front of your base and then attacks when your immortal spawns. 2nd replay: 4th gate gets built at 340 minerals (...) and then completely garbage micro ensues. Loses units with superior stalker count (I mean cmon, they are the fastest ground unit in PvP), idles zealots in your main, lets his zealots get trapped by your ones, tries to focus the robo ... etc. I imagine that 1 Zealot 6 Stalker, which is ready at 5:40 in a well executed 1 gas 4gate completely rapes the 2 zealot 1 stalker you have at the time, in the replays warpgates finish at 6:00, so you could probably squeeze out 4 Zealot 1 Stalker when the 4gate initially hits. But you are still getting kited and losing units and then the reinforcements make for 5 Zealots and 6 Stalkers vs your (at best) 4 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal. totally agreed , none of these replays are example of a good executed 4 gate , please try to read the whole thread , ive posted why this build need improvement . | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On February 09 2011 23:13 Valefort wrote: The build seems alright in a straight fight against a 4 gates but what can you do if he goes into your main and snipe probes and pylons with stalkers, constantly running away from your zealots ? Sure you will kill some stalkers but at equal micro he'll still do a fair amount of damage, i'm not sure of the outcome. This is actually a very interesting point, when he gets his 4 stalker warp in at 5:40 he can just run up your ramp, and start killing all your probes since you have all your 200 gas invested into robo + still making immortal whereas he has it in his 4 stalkers. All you have that can damage his stalkers at this point is _1_ stalker. I think this build has potential but as Tyler has said, against the cleanly executed ASAP 4gate its probably best to just defensively 4gate yourself (and eek out a few more probes than him etc.) | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I'm under the impression the probe cut for the slightly faster gas is completely unneccesary. After a quick test I modified the build a little bit. Instead of kcdc I use 3 chrono's on nexus, then 2 on warpgate tech then all others on robo. The reasoning here is that not using the 3rd chrono on your nexus makes your economy very tight. which makes it really hard to get out the 2nd gateway on time etc, you can see in the replays of kcdc that he slightly stumbles and has less zealots because of it. Also 1 chrono on stalker 2 on WG is slightly inefficient as your first gateway will be idle for about 12 seconds after the 3rd zealot. Not chronoing the gate will make this less so and as a sideeffect will make your build look even more like a 1 gas 4 gate (especially if you make your 3rd pylon out of sight). Without probe cut and 14 gas I then get my first immortal out at 5:58, 2nd one will be around 6:37. A few notes by the way for when you do get 4 gated using this build: - stop probe production at 26 (22 on minerals, 3 on gas 1 scouting or dead). This will let you first round of warped zealots exactly let you go up to 42/42 pop. Each consequent immortal and round of zealots will use exactly 1 pylon then, if you continue making probes you can get supplyblocked, especially annoying if the 4 gater aimed at one of your pylons. - build as close as possible to your main. This makes it much harder for them to micro and continuously keep warping in units, unless they make a pylon on top of your plateau, in which case they can't retreat easily anymore. - it is a good idea to make your buildings in a line blocking him from running around your base with stalkers. I like to wall off 1 side of my base from nexus to the edge so you can trap his stalkers if he tries to move around. A pylon blocking the path behind your mineral line is also useful. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 09 2011 23:30 ChickenLips wrote: I imagine that 1 Zealot 6 Stalker, which is ready at 5:40 in a well executed 1 gas 4gate completely rapes the 2 zealot 1 stalker you have at the time, in the replays warpgates finish at 6:00, so you could probably squeeze out 4 Zealot 1 Stalker when the 4gate initially hits. But you are still getting kited and losing units and then the reinforcements make for 5 Zealots and 6 Stalkers vs your (at best) 4 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal. I completely agree with that, I also posted some pages ago that this is the reason why I think you HAVE to go aggressive with 1 zealot 1 stalker, don't be afraid of the micro-battle. Since you are not cutting probes heavily, you could take 1-2 probes with you to focus down the zealot fast. Everything depends on you not having to face your opponent's forces before your immortal is out. This means, you have to force him to warp in units at his pylon more in the back (everybody builds one there when 4-gating) and not directly near your ramp or even already on top of it. The 4-gater can only have 1 zealot and 1 stalker while the 2nd stalker always lags behind, since it is built after the 3 additional gates. So even if you suck at the micro-battle, you get your 2nd zealot in position. Therefore yes, the opponents of kcdc made mistakes while executing the 4-gate so that he had enough time to get the immortals out...nevertheless, after doing some testing, I'm convinced that you can FORCE your opponent into a slight delay, if you go aggressive early on. | ||
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