• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:36
CEST 14:36
KST 21:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 28897 users

[G] PvP: Compilation of anti 4 gate builds - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Binabik
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany686 Posts
August 19 2011 20:06 GMT
#41
On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:

You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP


you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.

your opponent can just attack with the first zealot+stalker which will cost you 2 more forcefields?

and you need a wall-in in order to deny the high-ground-warp-in, at least on standard ramps
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 19 2011 20:08 GMT
#42
On August 20 2011 04:56 galivet wrote:
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.

Taking the 3 stalker rush example: If I'm going 4 gate and scout a second gateway go down while the cybercore is building, I can just immediately drop a robo and be head. Yes, 3 stalker rush would counter me if I foolishly continued my 4 gate, but since I scout the 3 stalker rush in time I can be slightly greedier than that build (while remaining safe) and get a tech advantage.

A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you.


You can keep scouting with a worker until ~10s before the stalker comes out. If you want to be so greedy that you drop the robo in the guys face, he can actually move across the map with 3 stalkers and a probe while dropping 2 more gates, and roll you over with the first warp-in. Also you aren't necessarily ahead in tech/econ. 3 stalker rush gets a faster second gas and doesn't cut as many probes as a hardcore 4gate.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 19 2011 20:10 GMT
#43
On August 20 2011 02:23 WigginOut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 01:50 4kmonk wrote:

Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build.



Thanks. What about expanding? My assumption is: If I stopped a 4gate, expand to press my advantage after I throw down a tech structure. If they didn't 4gate, pressure them while my tech is building but don't expand. Is this right, or should I stick to 'the first one to expand in PvP loses'?


Are you talking about specifically the defensive 4 gate build or in general? If you've stopped a 4 gate, you should make an immediate judgement of how far ahead you are. If you're just slightly ahead after the 4 gate, then expanding can lose you the game and it's safer just to tech and stay on 1 base. If you're way ahead, it's probably better to just blink stalker allin him, as there's close to no way of defending this after a really bad failed 4 gate. Expanding in this situation can also open the game up and cause you to possibly lose in the offchance.
Moderator
drybones
Profile Joined August 2011
United States69 Posts
August 19 2011 20:12 GMT
#44
On August 20 2011 05:00 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).

Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.

Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.

also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.

I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.

If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.

anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).



You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP


Also, if the guy scouts that many sentries early on, can't he just do whatever the hell he wants? Like throw down a tech building (or a nexus even?) without you being able to pressure him at all.


well because i opened 3 sentries i have alot of money left over to do the same. basically it denies any early pressure and allows me to tech up just fine. The biggest issue is like i said if he doesnt end up 4gating i have 3 sentries lying around but i described how they can be useful. also if they expo they wont have anything massive in time to help vs my ff's and i can crush his army outside his nat.

also i try to hide my 3rd sentry unless i absolutely need it. You are right though i cant pressure right away but i have really strong 8-10 minute pushes depending on what hes going i vary my mixture, and at this point my sentries build up tons of energy whereas he just has early stalks or zeals which add no benefit just sitting around.

shrug i can just tell u it works really well and pvp is for sure my best matchup. I feel like my overall build isnt weak against any single strategy a protoss player can use which takes out the rock paper scissor aspect and just gives an overall really well rounded build.

Its very reactionary too which im sure makes it hard to tell what im doing when ur scouting and isnt easily counted by any build, you just have to outplay me basically since theres no build order wins vs me
if ur not improving ur falling behind
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 19 2011 20:12 GMT
#45
On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:

You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP


you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.


What's to prevent him from warping over those forcefields? In addition, another problem with your opening is that your opponent can force out forcefileds by walking up your ramp with 1 zealot + 1 stalker.
Moderator
galivet
Profile Joined February 2011
288 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:20:01
August 19 2011 20:13 GMT
#46
edit: Removed misleading post.
drybones
Profile Joined August 2011
United States69 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:21:15
August 19 2011 20:15 GMT
#47
and if he 4gates its not like hes just gonna turn around. ive never seen anyone not even try unless i kill their proxy pylon (which can be done with 3 sentries just gotta be careful)
if ur not improving ur falling behind
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 19 2011 20:16 GMT
#48
On August 20 2011 05:01 galivet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.

Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.


You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius.

Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931

Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.


You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.


Well...can't he scout the fact that you built an early second gate but don't chrono the first stalker? It's the first stalker -- there won't be anything available to force the probe out. You also skip the zealot I assume? Seems like there are some significant differences from an optimal 4 gate there.


You don't actually have to chorno the first stalker to do the 3 stalker rush. In addition, you don't drop your 3rd and 4th gateway until your first stalker is just about to come out. This build ends up with 1 zealot 6 stalkers 20 probes at the exact same time as the traditional "optimal 4 gate". Kiwikaki does this build a lot and naniwa has used this build both in TSL and GSTL.
Moderator
galivet
Profile Joined February 2011
288 Posts
August 19 2011 20:19 GMT
#49
Thanks for the clarifications 4monk, I believe you. I was just ignorant of those variations.
drybones
Profile Joined August 2011
United States69 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:27:30
August 19 2011 20:20 GMT
#50
On August 20 2011 05:12 4kmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:

You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP


you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.


What's to prevent him from warping over those forcefields? In addition, another problem with your opening is that your opponent can force out forcefileds by walking up your ramp with 1 zealot + 1 stalker.


they do warp over the ff's but it doesnt matter. again either i ff the bottom of the ramp so i can ff again after the new zealots spawn or i just warp 3 more zealots to fight them and back up a little bit. Going zealot 3 sentry youd be amazed how long you can constantly ff even when "wasting" ff's you just have so friggin many at your disposal. and if u warp 3 zealots instead of stalkers hes just gonna lose all them trying to get to ur sentries. ill have to dig up some replays where ive held 4gates this way i promise you the 4gate isnt a problem its really only against a greedy 2/3gate colli build that i struggle with but even that ive beaten very fair % of

also you just ff the zealot or the stalker by itself and kill it without losing a unit. im not fantastic at micro and i can do this every time they walk up the ramp. the key is crono the 2nd sentry and its always zealot +2 sentries vs either zealot stalk or 3 stalks all of which can either be denied outright or even better just trap one. if u trap both kill the stalk first and micro against the zealot.

not sure what happens if i mis ff vs 3 stalks but it has yet to happen because again worst case you just throw a second ff and barf a little bit
if ur not improving ur falling behind
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 19 2011 20:20 GMT
#51
On August 20 2011 05:13 galivet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 05:08 Amui wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:56 galivet wrote:
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.

Taking the 3 stalker rush example: If I'm going 4 gate and scout a second gateway go down while the cybercore is building, I can just immediately drop a robo and be head. Yes, 3 stalker rush would counter me if I foolishly continued my 4 gate, but since I scout the 3 stalker rush in time I can be slightly greedier than that build (while remaining safe) and get a tech advantage.

A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you.


You can keep scouting with a worker until ~10s before the stalker comes out. If you want to be so greedy that you drop the robo in the guys face, he can actually move across the map with 3 stalkers and a probe while dropping 2 more gates, and roll you over with the first warp-in. Also you aren't necessarily ahead in tech/econ. 3 stalker rush gets a faster second gas and doesn't cut as many probes as a hardcore 4gate.


Well, "immediately" was a stupid word to use on my part. Obviously it's not immediate since my own cybercore will still be building at that point. My point is that I can see a three-stalker push coming in plenty of time to do a safe build that is also greedier than three-stalker rush, even if I was on my way to a 4 gate previously.

You don't cut probes in an optimal 4 gate until well after your cybercore is finished.


The 3 stalker rush build you give is a bad example, because you can transition to the hardcore 4 gate even with what looks like a 3 stalker rush opening as I have detailed in my previous posts. However, the 2 gas into 3 stalker rush opening is a build that doesn't look like a 4 gate at all. While I do agree a greedy player can get ahead of a build like this, they don't get significantly ahead. Also, this is supposed to be a close to complete list of builds that stop 4 gate, so it would be wrong to forget about these types of builds.
Moderator
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:32:22
August 19 2011 20:24 GMT
#52
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?

And I think you need a "Works on TDA/Crev./BSB" section, cause most of those don't.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Stipulation
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States587 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:42:36
August 19 2011 20:42 GMT
#53
This thread is like my dream thread. All the toss posters who I respect talking together about the matchup on my mind.

TOD's build
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Alicia_vs_(P)ToD__sc2rep_com_20110731/11905
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Alicia_vs_(P)ToD__sc2rep_com_20110731/11906
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:45:29
August 19 2011 20:44 GMT
#54
On August 20 2011 05:24 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?

And I think you need a "Works on TDA/Crev./BSB" section, cause most of those don't.


I kinda know what you're talking about but no one does that build anymore. And what's BSB?


On August 20 2011 05:42 Stipulation wrote:
This thread is like my dream thread. All the toss posters who I respect talking together about the matchup on my mind.

TOD's build
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Alicia_vs_(P)ToD__sc2rep_com_20110731/11905
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Alicia_vs_(P)ToD__sc2rep_com_20110731/11906


I already have one of those reps in my guide =P.
Moderator
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:49:04
August 19 2011 20:44 GMT
#55
On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.

Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.


You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius.

Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931

Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.


You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.


Except that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing.

So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still .

And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo.

(You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)

Edit: Btw, I don't even think that you can bring a 2nd stalker in the classic 4gate, but yeah, it's rare that you can just do this build "in the face" to your opponent without him delaying it a little.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 19 2011 20:47 GMT
#56
On August 20 2011 05:44 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.

Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.


You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius.

Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931

Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.


You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.


xcept that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing.

So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still .

And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo.

(You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)


My point is that for all practical purposes, it's a hardcore 4 gate from your opponent's perspective in that he has to defend it in the same way and can't go a greedy build.
Moderator
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
August 19 2011 20:48 GMT
#57
On August 20 2011 05:47 4kmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 05:44 ZenithM wrote:
On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:
On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.

Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.


You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius.

Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931

Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.


You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.


xcept that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing.

So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still .

And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo.

(You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)


My point is that for all practical purposes, it's a hardcore 4 gate from your opponent's perspective in that he has to defend it in the same way and can't go a greedy build.


Yeah, I agree of course
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-19 20:57:42
August 19 2011 20:57 GMT
#58
[QUOTE]On August 20 2011 05:44 4kmonk wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 20 2011 05:24 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And what's BSB?
[/QUOTE]

Bel'shir Beach
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Binabik
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany686 Posts
August 19 2011 20:59 GMT
#59
Ok before this great thread turns into a discussion without any data, here's a replay on Tal'darim with me using 3 Stalker rush into 4 Gate against a standard 4 Gate.
I messed up the beginning and got behind like 3 seconds on everything, so at the end of the day my first warp-in was around 10 seconds slower with both of us sharing the same economy but me having 3S vs 1Z/2S


[image loading]
Lazzi
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1923 Posts
August 19 2011 21:11 GMT
#60
Nice thread , but the Tod's one is in fact from Naniwa .
It's good to be back
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL Code S
09:30
Ro8 - Group B
Zoun vs herOLIVE!
Crank 395
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko485
Crank 395
Harstem 249
Hui .131
ProTech87
MindelVK 31
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 13625
Hyuk 8032
Sea 3531
EffOrt 438
Mini 344
Stork 295
Last 230
Snow 205
Soulkey 186
Zeus 128
[ Show more ]
Light 120
TY 92
ToSsGirL 69
Pusan 57
sorry 49
hero 48
sas.Sziky 44
Sea.KH 44
Rush 36
Movie 34
sSak 28
Barracks 25
Nal_rA 22
Yoon 21
Icarus 16
JulyZerg 14
scan(afreeca) 13
IntoTheRainbow 12
HiyA 10
Noble 8
zelot 8
SilentControl 7
ivOry 5
Dota 2
qojqva1548
XcaliburYe524
boxi98312
XaKoH 310
Fuzer 277
Counter-Strike
byalli164
edward63
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor159
Other Games
singsing2589
B2W.Neo1231
C9.Mang0560
DeMusliM441
crisheroes422
Mew2King140
ArmadaUGS68
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream13154
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis5151
• Jankos1312
Other Games
• WagamamaTV156
Upcoming Events
OSC
8h 24m
Replay Cast
11h 24m
OSC
11h 24m
WardiTV Invitational
22h 24m
OSC
1d
Korean StarCraft League
1d 14h
SOOP
1d 20h
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
1d 21h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 22h
Cheesadelphia
2 days
[ Show More ]
CSO Cup
2 days
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs TBD
TBD vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.