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On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.
your opponent can just attack with the first zealot+stalker which will cost you 2 more forcefields?
and you need a wall-in in order to deny the high-ground-warp-in, at least on standard ramps
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On August 20 2011 04:56 galivet wrote:
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.
Taking the 3 stalker rush example: If I'm going 4 gate and scout a second gateway go down while the cybercore is building, I can just immediately drop a robo and be head. Yes, 3 stalker rush would counter me if I foolishly continued my 4 gate, but since I scout the 3 stalker rush in time I can be slightly greedier than that build (while remaining safe) and get a tech advantage.
A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you.
You can keep scouting with a worker until ~10s before the stalker comes out. If you want to be so greedy that you drop the robo in the guys face, he can actually move across the map with 3 stalkers and a probe while dropping 2 more gates, and roll you over with the first warp-in. Also you aren't necessarily ahead in tech/econ. 3 stalker rush gets a faster second gas and doesn't cut as many probes as a hardcore 4gate.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 02:23 WigginOut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 01:50 4kmonk wrote:
Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build. Thanks. What about expanding? My assumption is: If I stopped a 4gate, expand to press my advantage after I throw down a tech structure. If they didn't 4gate, pressure them while my tech is building but don't expand. Is this right, or should I stick to 'the first one to expand in PvP loses'?
Are you talking about specifically the defensive 4 gate build or in general? If you've stopped a 4 gate, you should make an immediate judgement of how far ahead you are. If you're just slightly ahead after the 4 gate, then expanding can lose you the game and it's safer just to tech and stay on 1 base. If you're way ahead, it's probably better to just blink stalker allin him, as there's close to no way of defending this after a really bad failed 4 gate. Expanding in this situation can also open the game up and cause you to possibly lose in the offchance.
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On August 20 2011 05:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP Also, if the guy scouts that many sentries early on, can't he just do whatever the hell he wants? Like throw down a tech building (or a nexus even?) without you being able to pressure him at all.
well because i opened 3 sentries i have alot of money left over to do the same. basically it denies any early pressure and allows me to tech up just fine. The biggest issue is like i said if he doesnt end up 4gating i have 3 sentries lying around but i described how they can be useful. also if they expo they wont have anything massive in time to help vs my ff's and i can crush his army outside his nat.
also i try to hide my 3rd sentry unless i absolutely need it. You are right though i cant pressure right away but i have really strong 8-10 minute pushes depending on what hes going i vary my mixture, and at this point my sentries build up tons of energy whereas he just has early stalks or zeals which add no benefit just sitting around.
shrug i can just tell u it works really well and pvp is for sure my best matchup. I feel like my overall build isnt weak against any single strategy a protoss player can use which takes out the rock paper scissor aspect and just gives an overall really well rounded build.
Its very reactionary too which im sure makes it hard to tell what im doing when ur scouting and isnt easily counted by any build, you just have to outplay me basically since theres no build order wins vs me
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.
What's to prevent him from warping over those forcefields? In addition, another problem with your opening is that your opponent can force out forcefileds by walking up your ramp with 1 zealot + 1 stalker.
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edit: Removed misleading post.
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and if he 4gates its not like hes just gonna turn around. ive never seen anyone not even try unless i kill their proxy pylon (which can be done with 3 sentries just gotta be careful)
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:01 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate. Well...can't he scout the fact that you built an early second gate but don't chrono the first stalker? It's the first stalker -- there won't be anything available to force the probe out. You also skip the zealot I assume? Seems like there are some significant differences from an optimal 4 gate there.
You don't actually have to chorno the first stalker to do the 3 stalker rush. In addition, you don't drop your 3rd and 4th gateway until your first stalker is just about to come out. This build ends up with 1 zealot 6 stalkers 20 probes at the exact same time as the traditional "optimal 4 gate". Kiwikaki does this build a lot and naniwa has used this build both in TSL and GSTL.
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Thanks for the clarifications 4monk, I believe you. I was just ignorant of those variations.
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On August 20 2011 05:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg. What's to prevent him from warping over those forcefields? In addition, another problem with your opening is that your opponent can force out forcefileds by walking up your ramp with 1 zealot + 1 stalker.
they do warp over the ff's but it doesnt matter. again either i ff the bottom of the ramp so i can ff again after the new zealots spawn or i just warp 3 more zealots to fight them and back up a little bit. Going zealot 3 sentry youd be amazed how long you can constantly ff even when "wasting" ff's you just have so friggin many at your disposal. and if u warp 3 zealots instead of stalkers hes just gonna lose all them trying to get to ur sentries. ill have to dig up some replays where ive held 4gates this way i promise you the 4gate isnt a problem its really only against a greedy 2/3gate colli build that i struggle with but even that ive beaten very fair % of
also you just ff the zealot or the stalker by itself and kill it without losing a unit. im not fantastic at micro and i can do this every time they walk up the ramp. the key is crono the 2nd sentry and its always zealot +2 sentries vs either zealot stalk or 3 stalks all of which can either be denied outright or even better just trap one. if u trap both kill the stalk first and micro against the zealot.
not sure what happens if i mis ff vs 3 stalks but it has yet to happen because again worst case you just throw a second ff and barf a little bit
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:13 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:08 Amui wrote:On August 20 2011 04:56 galivet wrote:
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.
Taking the 3 stalker rush example: If I'm going 4 gate and scout a second gateway go down while the cybercore is building, I can just immediately drop a robo and be head. Yes, 3 stalker rush would counter me if I foolishly continued my 4 gate, but since I scout the 3 stalker rush in time I can be slightly greedier than that build (while remaining safe) and get a tech advantage.
A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you. You can keep scouting with a worker until ~10s before the stalker comes out. If you want to be so greedy that you drop the robo in the guys face, he can actually move across the map with 3 stalkers and a probe while dropping 2 more gates, and roll you over with the first warp-in. Also you aren't necessarily ahead in tech/econ. 3 stalker rush gets a faster second gas and doesn't cut as many probes as a hardcore 4gate. Well, "immediately" was a stupid word to use on my part. Obviously it's not immediate since my own cybercore will still be building at that point. My point is that I can see a three-stalker push coming in plenty of time to do a safe build that is also greedier than three-stalker rush, even if I was on my way to a 4 gate previously. You don't cut probes in an optimal 4 gate until well after your cybercore is finished.
The 3 stalker rush build you give is a bad example, because you can transition to the hardcore 4 gate even with what looks like a 3 stalker rush opening as I have detailed in my previous posts. However, the 2 gas into 3 stalker rush opening is a build that doesn't look like a 4 gate at all. While I do agree a greedy player can get ahead of a build like this, they don't get significantly ahead. Also, this is supposed to be a close to complete list of builds that stop 4 gate, so it would be wrong to forget about these types of builds.
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Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And I think you need a "Works on TDA/Crev./BSB" section, cause most of those don't.
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On August 20 2011 05:24 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And I think you need a "Works on TDA/Crev./BSB" section, cause most of those don't.
I kinda know what you're talking about but no one does that build anymore. And what's BSB?
I already have one of those reps in my guide =P.
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On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.
Except that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing.
So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still  .
And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo.
(You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)
Edit: Btw, I don't even think that you can bring a 2nd stalker in the classic 4gate, but yeah, it's rare that you can just do this build "in the face" to your opponent without him delaying it a little.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:44 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate. xcept that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing. So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still . And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo. (You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)
My point is that for all practical purposes, it's a hardcore 4 gate from your opponent's perspective in that he has to defend it in the same way and can't go a greedy build.
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On August 20 2011 05:47 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:44 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate. xcept that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing. So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still . And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo. (You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all) My point is that for all practical purposes, it's a hardcore 4 gate from your opponent's perspective in that he has to defend it in the same way and can't go a greedy build.
Yeah, I agree of course
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[QUOTE]On August 20 2011 05:44 4kmonk wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 20 2011 05:24 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And what's BSB?
[/QUOTE]
Bel'shir Beach
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Ok before this great thread turns into a discussion without any data, here's a replay on Tal'darim with me using 3 Stalker rush into 4 Gate against a standard 4 Gate.
I messed up the beginning and got behind like 3 seconds on everything, so at the end of the day my first warp-in was around 10 seconds slower with both of us sharing the same economy but me having 3S vs 1Z/2S
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227252.jpg)
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Nice thread , but the Tod's one is in fact from Naniwa .
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EPT
