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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 06:11 Lazzi wrote: Nice thread , but the Tod's one is in fact from Naniwa . You're probably referring to the game vs kiwi in the MLG Dallas finals. However, that game was in a different patch and didn't involve naniwa gas stealing. Thus, I feel safe giving Tod credit. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:59 Binabik wrote: Ok before this great thread turns into a discussion without any data, here's a replay on Tal'darim with me using 3 Stalker rush into 4 Gate against a standard 4 Gate. I messed up the beginning and got behind like 3 seconds on everything, so at the end of the day my first warp-in was around 10 seconds slower with both of us sharing the same economy but me having 3S vs 1Z/2S ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227252.jpg) What point are you trying to make exactly? | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
I don't believe this type of build has been mentioned yet, as the builds you listed all include a sentry. I've had a lot of success with this build beating high masters and a few GM players too. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
On August 20 2011 11:38 4kmonk wrote: What point are you trying to make exactly? Just aggreeing with you that 3 Stalker Rush can transition into offensive 4-gate. | ||
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julius33
Estonia79 Posts
On August 20 2011 00:56 Geiko wrote: Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions) Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals. 2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^ No my build doesn't require a wall off. You can do one if you want to be EVEN MORE (!!!) safe from 4 gate but it isn't at all mandatory. I don't do it because wall-offs are a huge liability in the mid game vs aggressive blink builds. I just find that the wall takes stalkers completly(mostly) out of the 4gate, + since you are getting blink, your own stalkers wont be stuck in your base. But, maybe its just my awful unit control  | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
In that case, does it make sense to put your buildings a bit closer to your ramp (say, halfway between your nex and the ramp rather than next to the nexus in a simcity) to get the extra stalkers there 5 ish seconds faster, or is it just bad execution on my part? | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On August 20 2011 18:46 Teoita wrote: Question about Geiko's build: i find that it's a bit harder to beat a 4gate with pylons straight beneath your ramp because with one stalker and one sentry it's hard to kill those pylons, and often the second and third stalkers arrive a little too late. In that case, does it make sense to put your buildings a bit closer to your ramp (say, halfway between your nex and the ramp rather than next to the nexus in a simcity) to get the extra stalkers there 5 ish seconds faster, or is it just bad execution on my part? Yes, it makes sense having your buildings close to your ramp (but not too close). Also a pylon at your ramp is a good idea (fast warp ins, but also adds an obstacle to 4 gaters when they try to push up your ramp so they can't just a-move their stuff.) You shouldn't try to kill the pylons under the ramp, your 2 additional stalkers will arrive in time to shoot at the warping in units though. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On August 20 2011 18:50 Geiko wrote: Yes, it makes sense having your buildings close to your ramp (but not too close). Also a pylon at your ramp is a good idea (fast warp ins, but also adds an obstacle to 4 gaters when they try to push up your ramp so they can't just a-move their stuff.) You shouldn't try to kill the pylons under the ramp, your 2 additional stalkers will arrive in time to shoot at the warping in units though. Thank you very much <3 also thanks for the build, it's sooo good ^^ | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
1) What is the difference between the "3 stalker rush" and 2 gas into "3 stalker rush 2 sentries" builds? I thought the 2 gas 3 stalker build was just a slight variant of the 3 stalker rush build where u get your 2nd gas on 18supply to stop gas steals, while the other build gets the 2nd gas during/after the 2nd gateway building?? 2) Why does the 2gas 3 stalker build need 2 sentries?? Again, isnt it exactly like the 3 stalker rush where u rely on superior stalker count to defend 4gate? 3) Slightly off track from the anti-4gate discussion but.....Watching the TTone vs oGSMC replay for 2gas3stalkers, I am noticing they both go 13 gate then scout. On big 4 player maps, if you scout this late, will you miss scouting things like cannon rushes or proxy gates in time?? If so, how does the 2 gas 3 stalker build adjust for this? | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On August 19 2011 17:35 sleepingdog wrote: Good idea for a thread - especially because it gives people an idea of the current meta-game-problem in PvP: Which is how much safety you are willing to give up in order to gain an advantage over a non 4 gating opponent. The only thing I don't really think is necessary/useful is including the wall-yes/no....you can pretty much include a wall with every build, even one gate robo into 2 more gates. The pros and cons of a wall are imo a different topic that's not really related to the structure of the respective build. I feel like liquipedia should have a section for this (if it doesn't already) and should have sections for other anti-builds like anti-roach/ling all-in, anti-2rax, anti-1/1/1 etc. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:07 bankai wrote: I have some dumb questions" 1) What is the difference between the "3 stalker rush" and 2 gas into "3 stalker rush 2 sentries" builds? I thought the 2 gas 3 stalker build was just a slight variant of the 3 stalker rush build where u get your 2nd gas on 18supply to stop gas steals, while the other build gets the 2nd gas during/after the 2nd gateway building?? 2) Why does the 2gas 3 stalker build need 2 sentries?? Again, isnt it exactly like the 3 stalker rush where u rely on superior stalker count to defend 4gate? 3) Slightly off track from the anti-4gate discussion but.....Watching the TTone vs oGSMC replay for 2gas3stalkers, I am noticing they both go 13 gate then scout. On big 4 player maps, if you scout this late, will you miss scouting things like cannon rushes or proxy gates in time?? If so, how does the 2 gas 3 stalker build adjust for this? There are 4 variations of 3 stalker rush that I know of:
Also, their early game scouting patterns have nothing to do with their opening builds. They 12 scout, probably because it's MLG metal. Also, I didn't watch the replay, but I bet they run through the middle of the map to check for proxies. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On August 22 2011 11:54 4kmonk wrote: There are 4 variations of 3 stalker rush that I know of:
Also, their early game scouting patterns have nothing to do with their opening builds. They 12 scout, probably because it's MLG metal. Also, I didn't watch the replay, but I bet they run through the middle of the map to check for proxies. Yes actually your spot on, they did go straight through the map and scouted cross position first  I dont understand why though...wouldnt a proxy be hidden behind a natural or something (thinking like Metalopolis for example)? Or do you rely on the first 3 stalkers to check those areas??Ohhh...can you give me a link to a replay or tell me the build order for kiwikaki's variation? is it pretty much just getting a zealot instead of the 2nd gas on 18 supply? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:19 bankai wrote: Yes actually your spot on, they did go straight through the map and scouted cross position first I dont understand why though...wouldnt a proxy be hidden behind a natural or something (thinking like Metalopolis for example)? Or do you rely on the first 3 stalkers to check those areas??Ohhh...can you give me a link to a replay or tell me the build order for kiwikaki's variation? is it pretty much just getting a zealot instead of the 2nd gas on 18 supply? No, proxy gates are always hidden in one of 2 places in on MLG metal. You can't just blind put the gates in his natural, because you can't scout the natural in time. As for kiwikaki's build look for his reps vs Huk from NA blizzcon invitational. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
Some replays: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=227616 Loss (he sticks closer to his zealots with his stalkers) http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=227617 Win (He doesn't stick as closely to his zealots and or I just kite a bit better here) Seems that if the 4 gater just makes some micro adjustments it makes the fact that he has a stalker deficit a more minuscule problem. But in any case it doesn't seem very easy to me. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:40 Xahhk wrote: How are you guys doing with geiko 3 gate build? It's supposed to be real easy to destroy 4 gate, but if the guy is real good with it the fight is anything but a piece of cake. I've been forcefielding his 2 poking units in, and then trading units basically. Some replays: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=227616 Loss (he sticks closer to his zealots with his stalkers) http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=227617 Win (He doesn't stick as closely to his zealots and or I just kite a bit better here) Seems that if the 4 gater just makes some micro adjustments it makes the fact that he has a stalker deficit a more minuscule problem. But in any case it doesn't seem very easy to me. Game 1: At 6:34, you have 6 stalkers and a sentry versus 3 and back off for some reason. You should stay on top of your ramp and hit pylons. If he start warping in units or his 3 stalkers try to get up your ramp, then you forcefield him off. Just bad decision making on your part. It has nothing to do with the build or your micro. Game 2: You won the game so, not going to comment. | ||
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Boony
Australia87 Posts
Going to have to try some of these build that I was not aware of. | ||
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SheffiTB
Canada223 Posts
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SheffiTB
Canada223 Posts
There's this build that i've been working on for a silver league friend (long story short he just rejoined sc2, and asked me what a good build is for PvT, PvZ, and PvP, I told him about the first two but had no idea what to say for PvP) that abuses the sentry build time decrease when building from a gateway to get 3 sentries and 1 zealot by the time a 4gate gets 2 stalkers 1 zealot, and warps in an additional 3 stalkers at 5:45 to deal with the 4gate. I've managed to get 26 probes, 3 stalkers, 3 sentries (all with enough energy for guardian shield, constant guardian shield lowers stalker dps by so much that the dps loss from getting a sentry is almost completely made up for) and a zealot by 5:45, and on unit test map my best performance in terms of microing (before 30 secs are up and the next warpin comes) is all of his units being dead and 2 stalkers of mine are alive (both badly damaged). I know that with micro the 4gater might be able to win, but I can sustain constant warpins of 3 stalkers, while the 4gater will be warping in mainly zealots. The best way, I find, to deal with the 4gate warpins (after the first attack) is to focus the stalkers then kite the zealots around. Your constant stalker warpins, will eventually dwindle down the inconsistent (after the first 3) stalker zealot warpins of the 4gater. What the build gives you, more than anything else, is a huge economic advantage (7 more probes mining than the 4gater). If I had to show the build like in the OP, it would be: SheffiTB's defensive 3gate (I could provide a replay if you guys think it might be viable, bear in mind i'm a gold/plat terran player, not a protoss, and I was developping this build for a friend) Difficulty of execution: 5/10 (i guess? it's more difficult than defensive 4gate for sure) Probes at 5:45: 26 Required number of sentries: 3 Second gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Is this build worth a thread on? How can I provide replays if i'm not a protoss, or high level for that matter? Should I just keep the build to myself until either me or my friend are higher level? Should I abandon it completely? | ||
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