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United States8477 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:15 SheffiTB wrote:
(putting this here because I don't want to make a thread about it until I'm sure this is viable)
There's this build that i've been working on for a silver league friend (long story short he just rejoined sc2, and asked me what a good build is for PvT, PvZ, and PvP, I told him about the first two but had no idea what to say for PvP) that abuses the sentry build time decrease when building from a gateway to get 3 sentries and 1 zealot by the time a 4gate gets 2 stalkers 1 zealot, and warps in an additional 3 stalkers at 5:45 to deal with the 4gate. I've managed to get 26 probes, 3 stalkers, 3 sentries (all with enough energy for guardian shield, constant guardian shield lowers stalker dps by so much that the dps loss from getting a sentry is almost completely made up for) and a zealot by 5:45, and on unit test map my best performance in terms of microing (before 30 secs are up and the next warpin comes) is all of his units being dead and 2 stalkers of mine are alive (both badly damaged). I know that with micro the 4gater might be able to win, but I can sustain constant warpins of 3 stalkers, while the 4gater will be warping in mainly zealots.
The best way, I find, to deal with the 4gate warpins (after the first attack) is to focus the stalkers then kite the zealots around. Your constant stalker warpins, will eventually dwindle down the inconsistent (after the first 3) stalker zealot warpins of the 4gater. What the build gives you, more than anything else, is a huge economic advantage (7 more probes mining than the 4gater). If I had to show the build like in the OP, it would be:
SheffiTB's defensive 3gate
(I could provide a replay if you guys think it might be viable, bear in mind i'm a gold/plat terran player, not a protoss, and I was developping this build for a friend)
Difficulty of execution: 5/10 (i guess? it's more difficult than defensive 4gate for sure)
Probes at 5:45: 26
Required number of sentries: 3
Second gas timing: 3:00
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Is this build worth a thread on? How can I provide replays if i'm not a protoss, or high level for that matter? Should I just keep the build to myself until either me or my friend are higher level? Should I abandon it completely?
Probably/definitely not viable, although we'd need a replay to confirm. Even if it were somehow viable, anti 4 gate builds with 3 sentries are not very good.
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On August 26 2011 02:22 4kmonk wrote:
Probably/definitely not viable, although we'd need a replay to confirm. Even if it were somehow viable, anti 4 gate builds with 3 sentries are not very good.
I will provide a replay then (though it will be against AI, is that OK? I'm a terran so ladder games will be hard to get).
Just wondering, why are builds with heavy sentry bad? Is it because of the lack of dps? Delay of tech? If it's either of those, I believe I adressed both in my post (this theoretically, with a second round of stalkers, could punish/kill greedy tech builds, and guardian shield makes up for lack of dps against 4gate).
The advantage with this build, more than anything else, is the amount of probes you can get while being safe against a 4gate. With better mechanics than mine (not that hard, I'm gold/plat and terran at that) you could get 27 probes out at 5:45. After that you will have to cut probes to defend the 4gate, but that's miles ahead of any PvP anti-4gate build I've seen, including MC's one (if I'm not mistaken, 26 probes is only if he scouts that 4gate isn't actually coming as he thought? Even if it's not I have one more probes than the megagosu's build)
Thanks.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:42 SheffiTB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:22 4kmonk wrote:
Probably/definitely not viable, although we'd need a replay to confirm. Even if it were somehow viable, anti 4 gate builds with 3 sentries are not very good.
I will provide a replay then (though it will be against AI, is that OK? I'm a terran so ladder games will be hard to get). Just wondering, why are builds with heavy sentry bad? Is it because of the lack of dps? Delay of tech? If it's either of those, I believe I adressed both in my post (this theoretically, with a second round of stalkers, could punish/kill greedy tech builds, and guardian shield makes up for lack of dps against 4gate). The advantage with this build, more than anything else, is the amount of probes you can get while being safe against a 4gate. With better mechanics than mine (not that hard, I'm gold/plat and terran at that) you could get 27 probes out at 5:45. After that you will have to cut probes to defend the 4gate, but that's miles ahead of any PvP anti-4gate build I've seen, including MC's one (if I'm not mistaken, 26 probes is only if he scouts that 4gate isn't actually coming as he thought? Even if it's not I have one more probes than the megagosu's build) Thanks.
Heavy sentries builds are bad because they use up too much gas. As you may know, gas is usually the limiting resource in PvP. Sentries are also generally useless units in late game PvP. You also cannot punish greedy tech builds with sentries.
MC's build can get 26 probes even versus a 4 gate. There are 2 different variations, one that attempts to look like an offensive 4 gate more and one that attempts to look like it less. The one that looks like it more can get 24-25 probes while the one that looks like it less can get 25-26 probes. I'll add a notes section in my guide to account for this.
As for the replay, you'd probably have to post one versus an actual protoss. To be honest though, I'm fairly certain your build won't hold up to a well executed 4 gate.
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After patch 1.4, its looking like the key to stopping 4-gate (and being safe against Blink) is basically just:
get a Sentry to wallof ramp, now as of patch 1.4 they can't get vision to the top of the ramp.
and
Build an Immortal. As of patch 1.4 Immortals have equal range with Stalkers, so normal Stalkers will get roflstomped pretty hard, and even Blink Stalkers will struggle a lot with them.
I think it is clear that Blizzard wants a more stable PvP, and if that means making robo opening "standard" and reasonably safe, so be it. The nice thing is that Immortals will also be stronger vs. Colossi and Guardin Shield now works against them, so while Robo openings will become much more standard in PvP, I actually think lategame War of the Worlds will be significantly reduced.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
After patch 1.4, its looking like the key to stopping 4-gate (and being safe against Blink) is basically just:
get a Sentry to wallof ramp, now as of patch 1.4 they can't get vision to the top of the ramp.
and
Build an Immortal. As of patch 1.4 Immortals have equal range with Stalkers, so normal Stalkers will get roflstomped pretty hard, and even Blink Stalkers will struggle a lot with them.
I think it is clear that Blizzard wants a more stable PvP, and if that means making robo opening "standard" and reasonably safe, so be it. The nice thing is that Immortals will also be stronger vs. Colossi and Guardin Shield now works against them, so while Robo openings will become much more standard in PvP, I actually think lategame War of the Worlds will be significantly reduced.
I actually disagree with a point. Because of the immortal buff and blink nerf, I actually predict more collosi builds.
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On August 26 2011 03:44 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
After patch 1.4, its looking like the key to stopping 4-gate (and being safe against Blink) is basically just:
get a Sentry to wallof ramp, now as of patch 1.4 they can't get vision to the top of the ramp.
and
Build an Immortal. As of patch 1.4 Immortals have equal range with Stalkers, so normal Stalkers will get roflstomped pretty hard, and even Blink Stalkers will struggle a lot with them.
I think it is clear that Blizzard wants a more stable PvP, and if that means making robo opening "standard" and reasonably safe, so be it. The nice thing is that Immortals will also be stronger vs. Colossi and Guardin Shield now works against them, so while Robo openings will become much more standard in PvP, I actually think lategame War of the Worlds will be significantly reduced.
I actually disagree with a point. Because of the immortal buff and blink nerf, I actually predict more collosi builds.
I thought chargelot archon was beeat stalker colossus until super lategame? Then again I'm not P, so idk.
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I actually disagree with a point. Because of the immortal buff and blink nerf, I actually predict more collosi builds.
Colossi without Extended Thermal Lance now have equal range to Immortals, and GS working against Colossus (and stacking with Guardian Shield), means that one Colossi without Extended Lance really isn't that scary. It'll take it 15 shots, or just under 25 seconds, to kill an Immortal, whereas an Immortal will kill a Colossi in 8 shots or 11.6 seconds--and now that GS will be defending your army, they won't simply be melted by Colossi fire in the meantime (it takes a Colossi 7 shots to bring down a Gateway Unit protected by GS). To say nothing of the fact that Immortals cost 50/100 less than Colossus straight up, and thats not even factoring the huge tech cost of the robo bay and researching extended thermal lance.
If one player goes for Colossi, it will take them 200/200 and 65 seconds to get the Robo Bay. Then 300/200 and 75 seconds (50 with CB) for the first Colossus. Meanwhile ETL will cost you 200/200 and 140 seconds (94 with CB) after the Robo Bay completed, and getting a 2nd Colossus will cost you another 300/200 and somewhere between 75 and 50 seconds.
So, the entire process will take about 165 seconds if you use the maximum amount of CB, and will cost 1000/800. After that, they'll have 2 Colossi and Extended Lance, at which point their opponent is a bit screwed.
But in that window, they are pretty damn vulnerable. Their is no way their army strength will be better until a couple Colossi pop out, and their Colossi will be super vulnerable to Immortal fire until ETL finishes. For instance, if you push out at a player teching Colossi, its possible to have 2 Immortals and a Warp Prism finished and on their way to their base, while the Colossi player will still only have one Colossus on the field, and will be a minute away from their second Colossus and ETL.
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I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you
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On August 26 2011 07:32 farnham wrote:
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you
Really seems like the opponent would just see your cannons and drop a nexus immediately, before even warping in a significant number of units. In PVZ it's pretty easy to defend 3 bases from phoenix, couldn't a protoss player easily defend 2? You commit 600 minerals early on to cannons that he's just putting in a nexus and probes.
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On August 26 2011 15:05 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:32 farnham wrote:
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you Really seems like the opponent would just see your cannons and drop a nexus immediately, before even warping in a significant number of units. In PVZ it's pretty easy to defend 3 bases from phoenix, couldn't a protoss player easily defend 2? You commit 600 minerals early on to cannons that he's just putting in a nexus and probes.
usually im ahead in probes as 4 gaters cut probes
also i can scout the nexus and throwdown a nexus myself
also harass with phoenixes to reduce his probes
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I see you added the "extra gas" criteria which is a good thing.
Personally, I would also like to see the criteria : Does this build work against Adelscott's PvP Build ?
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good thread, nice to read.. keep it up :-)
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As most of the builds listed can stop a 4gate with relative ease now, it might be prudent to list how those builds fare against the version that aims to stick a 1-2 pylons on top of the ramp. From my experience a FAST probe pull can deal with one pylon on top of the ramp almost regardless of build provided you can kill the probe, and a lowground pylon is fairly worthless with the new patch. Perhaps even 2 pylons on high ground can be dealt with by a probe pull but maybe 3 pylons?
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On August 26 2011 17:36 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 15:05 sylverfyre wrote:On August 26 2011 07:32 farnham wrote:
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you Really seems like the opponent would just see your cannons and drop a nexus immediately, before even warping in a significant number of units. In PVZ it's pretty easy to defend 3 bases from phoenix, couldn't a protoss player easily defend 2? You commit 600 minerals early on to cannons that he's just putting in a nexus and probes. usually im ahead in probes as 4 gaters cut probes also i can scout the nexus and throwdown a nexus myself also harass with phoenixes to reduce his probes
Sorry, that's really not viable. You're saying you'll spend 600 minerals on static defense, and if he responds by spending 400 on a Nexus, you'll build a Nexus yourself. How are you going to defend an expansion when your opponent has a 600 mineral army advantage over you?
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My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430
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On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430
I'd love to try this  I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does.
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On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does.
You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely)
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On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely)
Nah I'm on EU 
But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate.
Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were
-5:31 with 1 CB on nexus
-5:39 with 2 CB on nexus
Is your immortal out in time with your build ?
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On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ?
Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base.
I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf.
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On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf.
Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp.
You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed.
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EPT
