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On August 19 2011 17:19 NrGmonk wrote:2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentriesReplayDifficulty of execution: 5/10 Probes at 5:45: 25 Required number of sentries: 2 2nd gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Excess gas: 136
I'm pretty sure a gas-steal hurts 10/10 in this build
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I do a 1 gate DT expand which auto wins against the 5:45-6:00 4gate builds.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:22 Nolot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 17:19 NrGmonk wrote:2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentriesReplayDifficulty of execution: 5/10 Probes at 5:45: 25 Required number of sentries: 2 2nd gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Excess gas: 136 I'm pretty sure a gas-steal hurts 10/10 in this build
You get the gas before he can steal you normally. If he gas steals you really early, you can do a different build, because you haven't committed to anything at that time.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:23 Pandepic wrote:
I do a 1 gate DT expand which auto wins against the 5:45-6:00 4gate builds.
No it doesn't.
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I've been doing kcdc's 1 gas immortal build lately with a ton of success. Especially on Tal'Darim where people still 4-gate, it's wonderful. Takes decent micro of course, but every build in PvP does.
My followup is expanding as soon as his 4 gate is done (or I know it isn't coming). Zealots plus tons of immortals will hold blink pushes fairly easily, Colossus all-ins now require thermal lance to be at all effective against immortal armies and the warp prism buff means immortal drops work great against colossus too. 1 base colossus is just bad lately, imo.
I'm not sure whether I should be transitioning into 2 base colossus or charge and archons after I hold the expo, but it's a very solid gameplan so far for me.
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On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this  I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU  But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed.
My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter.
I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
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On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
I completely hear what you are saying, but those aren't the only differences. The build I suggest has 2 gas and is 10 seconds faster. The only gas I spend more than you is what is mined from that 2nd gas BUT when you go Tech, I have had mine up longer, so even at time zero, where we stop the 4gate, I am ahead, and every time I cut a Stalker for Zealot, I get that much more ahead.
Furthermore, you only need all those Stalkers vs. 4 gate. notice you build 1 and then warp in 2 more. So if I see 2 fast gas or a build that is obviously not 4-gating, I can go fast 2nd immortal (the cost of 2 stalkers I now don't have to warp in), a Twilight, a Robo Bay, Stargate, or even expand with more gas support. Not to mention, as Geiko pointed out, the 4gates I face come at 5:40 like clockwork, which this build is safe against, and 10 seconds without FF access seems like an eternity.
So for me, playing a slightly safer build (re: earlier stalker, faster Warpgate,, and Immortal, option for a Sentry), even if it "wastes" money on Stalkers and a 2nd gas after the 2nd gate, means if I were to execute it horribly making it by 5:50, where apparently you experience 4gates, I would still be incredibly safe.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
I feel like stalkers are essential in PvP. Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control. If you have map control, you can rule out many possibilities from your opponent and can play much more greedy.
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On October 06 2011 02:47 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well. I completely hear what you are saying, but those aren't the only differences. The build I suggest has 2 gas and is 10 seconds faster. The only gas I spend more than you is what is mined from that 2nd gas BUT when you go Tech, I have had mine up longer, so even at time zero, where we stop the 4gate, I am ahead, and every time I cut a Stalker for Zealot, I get that much more ahead. Furthermore, you only need all those Stalkers vs. 4 gate. notice you build 1 and then warp in 2 more. So if I see 2 fast gas or a build that is obviously not 4-gating, I can go fast 2nd immortal (the cost of 2 stalkers I now don't have to warp in), a Twilight, a Robo Bay, Stargate, or even expand with more gas support. Not to mention, as Geiko pointed out, the 4gates I face come at 5:40 like clockwork, which this build is safe against, and 10 seconds without FF access seems like an eternity. So for me, playing a slightly safer build (re: earlier stalker, faster Warpgate,, and Immortal, option for a Sentry), even if it "wastes" money on Stalkers and a 2nd gas after the 2nd gate, means if I were to execute it horribly making it by 5:50, where apparently you experience 4gates, I would still be incredibly safe.
I'm don't doubt that the 10-gate immortal build is safe, and I acknowledge that it has more gas which a lot of people think is the key to winning PvP. I happen to disagree on that point; I like zealots, and gas doesn't buy you zealots. You could consider my build a PvP FE build (~45 food is pretty fast for PvP) whereas the 10-gate 2 gas build won't have enough minerals to expand safely, so it leads to tech builds. FWIW, if the two builds go head-to-head, the 1-gas build will have a lead on most maps, particularly on maps with open naturals.
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On October 06 2011 02:53 NrGmonk wrote:
Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control.
I'm not sure that's true. Regular stalkers are more or less useless once about 3 immortals are out, and after 4 immortals, blink stalkers are only useful for harass. They have a speed advantage, so to that extent, they can be out on the map scouting and holding watchtowers, but they have to give way if the immortals want to move out. Blink stalkers can loop around for a counter to try to pin the immortal army in a defensive position, but that can be dealt with using good scouting and positioning.
Early stalkers 100% have map control. But in the mid-game, it's not so clear. It's a little like saying speedlings have map control against a 6-gate stalker/sentry ball. The faster speedlings can be in more places at once, but the 6-gate ball can still go wherever it wants.
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On October 06 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:53 NrGmonk wrote:
Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control.
I'm not sure that's true. Regular stalkers are more or less useless once about 3 immortals are out, and after 4 immortals, blink stalkers are only useful for harass. They have a speed advantage, so to that extent, they can be out on the map scouting and holding watchtowers, but they have to give way if the immortals want to move out. Blink stalkers can loop around for a counter to try to pin the immortal army in a defensive position, but that can be dealt with using good scouting and positioning. Early stalkers 100% have map control. But in the mid-game, it's not so clear. It's a little like saying speedlings have map control against a 6-gate stalker/sentry ball. The faster speedlings can be in more places at once, but the 6-gate ball can still go wherever it wants.
How does your build do against Stargate openings ? You don't really mention those in your guide ?
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On October 06 2011 04:33 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 02:53 NrGmonk wrote:
Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control.
I'm not sure that's true. Regular stalkers are more or less useless once about 3 immortals are out, and after 4 immortals, blink stalkers are only useful for harass. They have a speed advantage, so to that extent, they can be out on the map scouting and holding watchtowers, but they have to give way if the immortals want to move out. Blink stalkers can loop around for a counter to try to pin the immortal army in a defensive position, but that can be dealt with using good scouting and positioning. Early stalkers 100% have map control. But in the mid-game, it's not so clear. It's a little like saying speedlings have map control against a 6-gate stalker/sentry ball. The faster speedlings can be in more places at once, but the 6-gate ball can still go wherever it wants. How does your build do against Stargate openings ? You don't really mention those in your guide ?
He mentions it in a post on the latest page.
The big downside is that phoenix openings are much better post-1.4 and phoenix openings own this opening pretty hard. It's still my best opening in PvP, and I think, on balance, its place in the metagame has improved since I first posted the guide.
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Oops, missed that Thx for answer.
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Are any of these builds any different with the patch?
I think you mean "formerly" not "formally"
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in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore 
Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=)
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On October 06 2011 04:48 DarkQ wrote:in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=)
This is a REALLY common misconception. 4gate is alive and well. It is now one option in a number of valid options that are based on what you see your opponent do. If you see him skip a Zealot without a quick 2nd gate, that basically cues me to 4 gate. Most builds count on 1 Sentry to generate enough time to warp in another, but frankly, with an aggressive pylon and quick Zealot-Stalker, it's very much alive.
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On October 06 2011 04:59 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 04:48 DarkQ wrote:in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=) This is a REALLY common misconception. 4gate is alive and well. It is now one option in a number of valid options that are based on what you see your opponent do. If you see him skip a Zealot without a quick 2nd gate, that basically cues me to 4 gate. Most builds count on 1 Sentry to generate enough time to warp in another, but frankly, with an aggressive pylon and quick Zealot-Stalker, it's very much alive.
Yeah I'm actually seeing 4 gates more now than I did in the previous patch, which is kind of counter intuitive but works because players who no longer try to 4 gate tend to be more greedy than before the patch. I've been trying a three stalker robo into eventual blink build but I'm still having difficulty denying the probe from getting into my base and throwing up pylons, and that negates all the usefulness of a sentry.
Also you're welcome Geiko.
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On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
I saw you play on some dudes stream, you really like your immortals with archons/zealots.
No one got a replay of the 3 stalker rush build?
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I still think you got the 3 stalker builds wrong :/
Here is my take on the traditional 3 Stalker rush:
3 Stalker rush
I can't even find a current replay of this build
Difficulty of execution: 8/10
Probes at 5:45: 20-25
Required number of sentries: 0
2nd gas timing: Variable
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 2/10
I do this one pretty often, because I like to 4 Gate people lately, as people just have poor builds as of late that die easily. The reason I like to do this one is because people commonly gas steal and think they're king of the world, then you just 4 Gate them. Although a gas steal does hurt slightly in the event that you don't want to 4 Gate, and as such it will slightly delay your vespene income, though the trade should be about even in terms of resource cost (not necessarily in information cost).
Then there's the modern 3 Stalker rush that I also run very often. Here is my take:
2 Gas into 3 stalker Rush
Replay
Difficulty of execution: 9/10 - 7/10
Probes at 5:45: 24+
Required number of sentries: 0-1
2nd gas timing: As second Gate goes down.
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Excess gas: Variable
The reason you don't actually require a Sentry, is because you can hold with just a Stalker ball if you keep the opponent's Stalker count low, assuming you defensively 3 Gate with a delayed 4th Gate. I've seen White-Ra do this multiple times, I've done it multiple times, and I've seen Hwangsin do something similar multiple times. However if you do get a Sentry, you can hold easier so the difficulty goes down a bit to 7. The rest of the fields are pretty variable, as the opening is very versatile - gas steal doesn't even do anything since you haven't commit by then. You can also skip your Sentry and get a fast tech off of 2 Gates if you feel safe, and you can defensively 3 Gate + Tech, or even defensively 4 Gate.
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That last thing is the opener in your twilight PvP, right Cecil?
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EPT
