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On August 20 2011 01:50 4kmonk wrote:
Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build.
Thanks. What about expanding? My assumption is: If I stopped a 4gate, expand to press my advantage after I throw down a tech structure. If they didn't 4gate, pressure them while my tech is building but don't expand. Is this right, or should I stick to 'the first one to expand in PvP loses'?
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Could you possibly include a replay or video of each of these builds. Would make understanding how they are executed much easier. I've seen Geiko's defensive 3gate and MC's 3gate, but builds like Tod's gas steal I haven't seen before.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:51 4kmonk wrote:??? Did you read my entire post?
ohhhhhhhh yes, i read it, i just forget.
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On August 20 2011 02:25 Payson wrote:
Could you possibly include a replay or video of each of these builds. Would make understanding how they are executed much easier. I've seen Geiko's defensive 3gate and MC's 3gate, but builds like Tod's gas steal I haven't seen before.
Lol, has no one read the OP at all ? ^^
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Add this one was practicing all day yesterday
Liquid`Tyler/Day[9]'s 2 Gate Robo
Pro Replay | Plat Replay
Difficulty of execution: 9/10
Probes at 5:45: 20
Required number of sentries: 1-3
2nd gas timing: 3:50
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 10/10
Notes: has super thin timings and force fields required to hold until you have immortals out. Once you hold off the the 4 gate it's almost a guaranteed win. (Whether it be expanding then out macroing, adding a 3 gate then going on the offensive, teching up to colossi/voidray/blink.)
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3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.
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actually the chronoboosts on the stalkers are a dead giveaway too but i guess u can transition a 3 stalker rush into a 4 gate
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On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.
Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.
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On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.
Well you can turn anything into a 4 gate... just a bit delayed. I think what we're referring to as "looks like an offensive 4 gate" is "looks like your standard 12 gate 4 gate that's not delayed at all."
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decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
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On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.
You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius.
Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931
Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 02:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
I solved the Gas steal problem with the 3 Stalker opening a long time ago. Let me look for a replay later today... Actually would you like to just create a replay sometime on bnet? PM me if so. If not I'll try to get one.
Well I know 2 solutions to the "gas steal problem". One is getting your 2nd gas early but not mining from it. This is the "other version of 2 gas into 3 stalker rush build" that I refer to. The other solution is getting an early zealot before your 3 stalker rush. This is kiwikaki's version of the 3 stalker rush build.
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In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.
A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you.
And yes, I took "4 gate" to mean "Optimal 4 gate, not depending on metagaming fake-outs to work". If it loses to an optimal 4 gate, then it's not a "real" 4 gate.
edit: Removed misleading content.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP
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On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
I have 2 big issues with PvP builds that blindly get a lot of sentries early on:
1) It's not the best way to deal with a 4 gate that pylons right below your ramp for the first wave of warp-ins.
2) Sentries are not the most efficient use of gas if neither side 4 gates. It also puts no pressure at all on your opponent, and he can safely do a greedy tech build without any sentries and will have the mid game advantage.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.
You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.
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On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP
Also, if the guy scouts that many sentries early on, can't he just do whatever the hell he wants? Like throw down a tech building (or a nexus even?) without you being able to pressure him at all.
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On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.
Well...can't he scout the fact that you built an early second gate but don't chrono the first stalker? It's the first stalker -- there won't be anything available to force the probe out. You also skip the zealot I assume? Seems like there are some significant differences from an optimal 4 gate there.
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ty so much for this guide. because right now in eu high masters pvp it just looks like everyone besides Grubby just aggreeded to not 4-gate anymore.even when most people use unsafe builds.
edit:
only because you see a 2 gate opening which normally means 3stalker rush, doesn't mean that 4gate is less powerful. it's only delayed by a couple of seconds.
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On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP
you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.
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EPT
