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[G]ZvZ: Everything I know

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 18:03:37
August 18 2011 18:02 GMT
#1
Hello everyone, I'm here to share you my Zerg vs Zerg guide to you fine folks here.

I have written a huge guide about the mirror match up, how the scouting works and what decisions are right. And most of all to show how deep the match up actually is compared to the seemingly mudane Roach versus roach battles. Zerg versus Zerg: The alpha and the Omega

Here's an excerpt of it.


14 pool and gas.

Starcraft at a million miles an hour.


For the novice, these numbers will display the first semblance of a 'build order' for a zerg player. A combination of a 14 supply gas and a 14 supply pool is a very common opening for 1 base. You can get zergling speed right as the pool finishes and its fairly economic, so it is great to start out with this. In zerg versus zerg, this is the best way to open on one base.

It is also the most frustrating and the one where people say the worst things about the match up. “Baneling zergling is just so coinflippy” “This is all based on luck” and well... you can probably add to that.

But baneling/zergling against baneling/zergling is just the thing that seperates the men from the boys. Whine like a shrub or outplay your opponent like a boss. This is where you show that you can play zerg, and if you can't handle it, you just practice harder next time. Super quick decisions and amazing micro, this is the place where you will need it the most.

Basic order for the opening

9 - overlord
14 - gas
14 - pool
16 - overlord
16 - 2 zerglings
17 - Zergling speed as pool finishes
17 - Queen as pool finishes


This build is very reactive. You respond to what your opponent is doing to counter it. That's why scouting is so big right now. This is why I always dronescout on 9 food to the nearest spawning position. To eliminate more bases and to scout out early pool strategies.

And if I don't see an early pool, I'll stick around and see his gas and pool timing. From that, I can see wether he is going for a big baneling play, or a roach play. I can also see if he goes for a fast expand.

If you scout a gas that goes up sooner than yours ( a 13 gas ) you can go back, knowing that he will probably do a baneling attack on you because he wants the gas early. If you see a pool, then gas, you can probably say that he is going roaches because he doesnt want the zergling speed as early.

With the two zerglings, you can slip into his base and verify wether or not he is going banelings or roaches. Although this is only used to be a 100% correct, and you don't have to get them inside.

Vs Zergling Baneling


Ah, the wonderful speedling/baneling. Amazing to look at, exhausting to play against. If you scout this opening, you are very hard pressed to defend your absolute best.

You need to go banelings yourself against this, but there are some slight tricks that can put you slightly ahead.

When you make your first 2 zerglings, just make one drone right after. In the case that you are fighting a 14/14 baneling attack, you are one drone ahead of your opponent if he is attacking you.

Also, when you reach your first 80 gas, take one drone of gas. This gives you more minerals and only delays your baneling nest slightly. Ofcourse you put the drone back into gas when you put the nest down, to give you a good amount of gas for when you need to morph your defensive banelings.

And here are some micro tips for this very tough to deal with pressure.


1.Seperate hotkeys for zerglings and banelings.

This one is a fairly simple thing to remember, and highly effective!
Nothing is worse than moving your banelings towards the opponents zerglings, then having all your zerglings lead the way. Not only being a nuisance for your own banelings, but threatening your own zerglings by having them out in the open before the banelings.

Personally I keep my banelings on 2 and zerglings on 1. I constantly make sure that whenever I make banelings I add the cocoons to the 2 hotkey and control-shift click on them and have the zergling hotkey clean of any banelings. It's only a very slight action to do, but helps keeping the battles much more managable.

2.Keep your banelings spread.

[image loading]
This one is also a very, very major improvement that will drastically help your banelings become more difficult to deal with. The reason you want your banelings spread is for the simple fact that 2 banelings can kill banelings in a splash area. For example, two well placed banelings can take out 10 banelings of your opponent should they be clumped up.

Whenever you defend, you can spread them out. And right before you attack or push the opponents zerglings, always spread them beforehand, when you're moving long distances or go up ramps, just move the clumped up banelings the opposite way for a little while. It gives you a nice dotted line that is very hard to deal with with just banelings and zerglings.

3.Move your banelings, do not attack move.

This one will help you against 'baneling sniping' and detonating on banelings. A baneling will always hit, regardless if an enemy unit takes it out or you attack with it. Therefore it is better to just move your banelings towards your opponents zerglings, because of a very simple trick that will punish an attack moved baneling. A baneling detonating on a single zergling will basically trade 25 minerals for 50 minerals and 25 gas, I E you actually LOST the engagement.

Also, if you have your banelings spread out defensively, put them on hold position. A zergling can move forward and lure a baneling and make it detonate because it isn't being controlled.

4.Shift-click one or two zerglings to snipe chasing banelings.

[image loading]
If you're being chased by a pack of banelings, or you just see some banelings wandering around alone, you can simply move your zerglings towards them, shift-click on the zergling icons twice and move that group back and reset your zergling hotkey to that group. Meanwhile, use those two single zerglings to focus down any banelings. It is cost effective if you kill a baneling with 2 or less zerglings, any more and it gives the enemy a nicely costeffective detonation.

5.Shift-add eggs to your zergling controll group.

This is something of personal prefference. If you're turning your larva into zerglings, you can shift-add them to your zergling controll group. In my case I would hit 4szzz ( select hatchery – select larvae – make zergling x 3 ) then click shift-1, which adds those eggs to the 1 controll group.

This will keep all your zerglings under your controll even if they have just hatched! Preventing them to walk into a bad rally point and just run blindly into a field of banelings.

6.Losing 4 drones is better than losing your zergling numbers.

Alright, this might seem a little bit controversial. After all, in these games of low dronecount we need as much drones as we can. Although in case of defending a baneling barrage, it is better to take a dent in your dronecount compared to your zerglings.

The logic behind this is when you lose zerglings and you are under attack, you have to rebuild those zerglings to stay alive. If you're building zerglings while you are behind because you have to stay alive, your enemy basically has you in a vice grip where you cannot escape. He has a better economy and both of you are just building units, this can only work out better for him. Whereas if you have a large pack of zerglings, you can deny zergling agression for a little while until he remorphs his banelings. This gives you time to redrone up a little and even it out, it'll make the next engagement harder, but atleast you're still in the race.

7.Spawning pool placement + queen positioning.
[image loading]

Even a simple thing like changing where you place your spawning pool helps you in zergling/baneling wars. If you place it touching your gas and leaving a gap between the hatchery and the pool, you both have something that will stop your opponent from placing an evolution chamber between your gas and hatchery. This happens often on Xel Naga and severely cripples your gas income and because of that you'll have a devastating disadvantage in baneling wars.

If you put a queen on hold position between the spawning pool and the hatchery, you also have a solid wall where banelings cannot move past. This forces them to move around your barricade, giving you time to respond to the situation.

8.Don't sweat about one baneling

One baneling cannot kill drones, it merely weakens them into the red HP. So if there is just one single baneling moving towards your mineral line and you have a healthy stack of drones, there is no need to panic and do something drastic. Infact, sometimes its best to just let it do what it wants and focus on more important things like hitting your injections and sniping morphing banelings.

9.Following an overlord with banelings to stop them from being lured.

This one is really new to me, and also a really smart trick that I learned from listening to Mr Bitter when he was casting the GO4SC2 finals between Nerchio and sLivko.

When you have defensive banelings, select them all and click on an overlord. This will make them huddle up around the overlord, following it. This is simular to hold positioning them, however they will never detonate even if a ling is attacking them, unless ofcourse it gets killed by it.

The downside of this is that an overlord isnt out on the map, so your scouting will suffer slightly for this trick. So this is a very situational usage of banelings, but it is easy to execute and frees up your actions so you don't have to be as fast all the time.


And that is just a small excerpt from the guide. The reason I won't post the whole guide here is because I have it all written inside HTML tags right now on my actual homemade blog system. It would take me ages to remove all the tags from the amount of text I typed.

Another reason is that I have more options available for showing things aestatically on my own blog rather than a BBcode teamliquid post. On top of that, I have given a handy table of contents at the start of the guide too so you can quickly browse to the part you want to read about.

Without further rambling, here is the link to my guide: Zerg versus Zerg: The alpha and the Omega

If this breaks the rules of TL, I am very sorry about the inconvinience I caused to the mods. It is not my intention to bring dispair to you guys, I simply want to share my guide to the rest of the community. And I hope you can understand that it would take me a lot of time to BBcode all of it instead of having it on my own blog.

Thank you for everyone interrested in reading, I hope you can gain a few edges in your play by reading it.
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 18:41:18
August 18 2011 18:40 GMT
#2
Very well written and thorough although I much preferred your website to this guide. Primarily because I rarely ever open 14/14.
I am that I am
BadWolf0
Profile Joined September 2010
United States300 Posts
August 18 2011 19:02 GMT
#3
Thanks! 'twas a good guide.
All hail the Queen!!!
AustinCM
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada275 Posts
August 18 2011 19:22 GMT
#4
This is the best ZvZ guide I have ever read...it is everything I ever wanted to know.
"Somewhere, Something incredible is waiting to be known." -Carl Sagan
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
August 18 2011 19:44 GMT
#5
On August 19 2011 03:40 Aletheia27 wrote:
Very well written and thorough although I much preferred your website to this guide. Primarily because I rarely ever open 14/14.


Opening 14/14 is mostly for maps such as Xel naga caverns, where only a clinically insane person would hatch first. It is also very powerful in the right hands, such as Nerchio, who really knows how to pressure to get a drone lead on the hatch firster.

On August 19 2011 04:22 AustinCM wrote:
This is the best ZvZ guide I have ever read...it is everything I ever wanted to know.


Well.. it is everything I know, so that's all you're going to get out of it.

I will be adding infographics to the guide in the next week about each unit.
Information such as build time, cost, supply and amount of hits it takes for it to take out a unit across all three attack upgrades.

Thanks for everyone reading it, and if you have a google plus account, do show some love by +1ing it on the end of the page ( if you want to quickly navigate to it, just go to the table of contents and click conclusion )
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
August 18 2011 19:47 GMT
#6
On August 19 2011 04:44 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2011 03:40 Aletheia27 wrote:
Very well written and thorough although I much preferred your website to this guide. Primarily because I rarely ever open 14/14.


Opening 14/14 is mostly for maps such as Xel naga caverns, where only a clinically insane person would hatch first. It is also very powerful in the right hands, such as Nerchio, who really knows how to pressure to get a drone lead on the hatch firster.



That's fair, although I usually open with a 10 pool on those maps Well... I have xel naga banned. But still, if I did, I would open 10 pool.
I am that I am
Venomsflame
Profile Joined February 2011
United States613 Posts
August 18 2011 19:54 GMT
#7
Just read the spoiler so far but very well written! Hopefully the rest of the guide is as good Thanks for this!
CtrlAltDefeat
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel106 Posts
August 18 2011 20:15 GMT
#8
I know people say opening hatch first on Xelnaga is a big mistake, but what's the big risk in doing so? Assuming you defend with roaches first or spine+blings, I don't see how it's much more dangerous than opening hatch first anywhere else (assuming of course you scout for early pool).
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
August 18 2011 20:23 GMT
#9
On August 19 2011 05:15 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
I know people say opening hatch first on Xelnaga is a big mistake, but what's the big risk in doing so? Assuming you defend with roaches first or spine+blings, I don't see how it's much more dangerous than opening hatch first anywhere else (assuming of course you scout for early pool).


Well for one, the natural is very very open. Because of that, it is really easy to pressure your hatchery from a lot of different angles and force you to make units rather than drones, which basically cuts down your 'eco advantage' by a lot.

Considering that you have to play pretty much perfectly in blocking zerglings with roaches and queens for the first half of the game, it is much harder to defend it. If zerglings slip through your queen wall, you die straight up. And because it is a two player map, you can always scout an opponent going hatch first and rushing is much more tempting because you don't have to walk across a whole valley like in tal darim. Which will entice ladder players to do just that.

In my personal opinion, I don't think it is worth the trouble to hatch first on this map where you can be much safer and able to get a few more drones out when you are strong at using speedlings and banelings. And personally I am much stronger in a onebase vs onebase situation than a 2 base versus 1 base.
Bobo012893
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 21:00:53
August 18 2011 20:57 GMT
#10
I disagree with the statement that if your opponent goes baneling you have to as well.

In a situation where both you and your opponent go 14/14, and he chooses to follow with banelings, you can simply just expand and constantly make zerglings. By staying close to his army at all times and not engaging, because you both have the same amount of larvae, he cant morph banelings because then his army will get overrun by yours.

So in essence instead of adding a baneling nest to defend his one base baneling you can just expand and constsantly make zerglings, putting you ahead a base. The goal is to make him morph his banelings in his base, after which you will have more than enough time to get roaches out or your own baneling tech, after expanding.

Edit: Also, i think that it is smarter to split your banelings into pairs of twos not ones unless youre defending against an only speedling player but thats a rare situation.
I am fucking awesome
birdkicker
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States752 Posts
August 18 2011 21:04 GMT
#11
On August 19 2011 05:57 Bobo012893 wrote:
I disagree with the statement that if your opponent goes baneling you have to as well.

In a situation where both you and your opponent go 14/14, and he chooses to follow with banelings, you can simply just expand and constantly make zerglings. By staying close to his army at all times and not engaging, because you both have the same amount of larvae, he cant morph banelings because then his army will get overrun by yours.

So in essence instead of adding a baneling nest to defend his one base baneling you can just expand and constsantly make zerglings, putting you ahead a base. The goal is to make him morph his banelings in his base, after which you will have more than enough time to get roaches out or your own baneling tech, after expanding.

Edit: Also, i think that it is smarter to split your banelings into pairs of twos not ones unless youre defending against an only speedling player but thats a rare situation.


This is not true.. 14/14 into baneling nest will almost always beat 14/14 expand.
Bobo012893
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 21:15:00
August 18 2011 21:08 GMT
#12
On August 19 2011 06:04 birdkicker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2011 05:57 Bobo012893 wrote:
I disagree with the statement that if your opponent goes baneling you have to as well.

In a situation where both you and your opponent go 14/14, and he chooses to follow with banelings, you can simply just expand and constantly make zerglings. By staying close to his army at all times and not engaging, because you both have the same amount of larvae, he cant morph banelings because then his army will get overrun by yours.

So in essence instead of adding a baneling nest to defend his one base baneling you can just expand and constsantly make zerglings, putting you ahead a base. The goal is to make him morph his banelings in his base, after which you will have more than enough time to get roaches out or your own baneling tech, after expanding.

Edit: Also, i think that it is smarter to split your banelings into pairs of twos not ones unless youre defending against an only speedling player but thats a rare situation.


This is not true.. 14/14 into baneling nest will almost always beat 14/14 expand.

If you let them morph banelings then yes. But how can they morph banelings if you are both opeerating off of the same amount of larvae?
I am fucking awesome
bre1010
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
71 Posts
August 18 2011 21:12 GMT
#13
I just have to say that ZvZ has been so frustrating lately that I was on the verge of 7-pooling every game. This guide gives me hope that I can be competitive in ZvZ!
Aerodynamic27
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada115 Posts
August 18 2011 21:47 GMT
#14
This is the most comprehensive and in-depth guide I've read on TL. It covers every single aspect of the matchup I can think of. Amazing read. ZvZ is a beautiful matchup.
pStar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
996 Posts
August 18 2011 21:59 GMT
#15
This is probably the most awesome thing i have ever seen in my life.
loving it
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada271 Posts
August 18 2011 22:06 GMT
#16
Wow wee, this is amazing. Really extensive stuff that alot of new players can use. I'll pass this along with my other zerg friends and I'll be on the lookout for any future guides from you. :D
Stay gold.
Hossinaut
Profile Joined June 2011
United States453 Posts
August 18 2011 22:14 GMT
#17
Not to be contradictory, and this guide is amazing, but its possible to survive most everything with a 15 hatch. I've survived everything but a 13/10 pool (double extractor +evo) and triple spine crawler rush with a 15 hatch.

I think ZvZ is more of a macro game now, at least in the games I've played, and more of a tech race, than it is an early game sling/bling micro fest. I may be way off, but thats what I've personally seen.

Thanks for the sling/bling guide for ZvZ <3
Heaven knows i need it :D
501TFX
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria345 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 22:19:29
August 18 2011 22:17 GMT
#18
sheesh, I read everything straight (took me about 1 1/2 hours ... I think), and I have to say, it's very well written! I think I can understand now, this o' so hard match up, at least on a theoretical level...

Edit: Can't you start Infestor Eggs after 30/80 seconds of the upgrade and not 35/80? And I tried on the Unit Test Map 1 Roach vs 1 Roach without any upgrades, it takes 11 Hits not 10, but besides that great guide!
Never let your dreams fade, run after them, run until you get them !
Strike_
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands704 Posts
August 18 2011 22:24 GMT
#19
Thanks nice guide
Strike_
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands704 Posts
August 18 2011 22:24 GMT
#20
Thanks nice guide!
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