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FFE SG opener into 3 Base 3 Colossus
vs. standard 3 Hatch before gas
Sick of brainlessly rolling the 2 base dice? Want to smash some Zerg face before he gets up in yours with that hellish Brood Lord Infestor ball and plants 40 spine crawlers at every expansion? This may help.
This style aims to hit a 3 base timing that includes:
- 3 Colossus with range and 2/1 Upgrades
- 7-8 Sentries
- A horde of blink stalkers
The proverbial "Protoss deathball" lol
… at the 15 minute mark
Administrative stuff
Preferred maps: The Shattered Temple, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley
OK maps: Antiguua Shipyard, Tal’Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau
Bad maps: Korhal Compound, Metalopolis
You don't want large pockets of space between your natural entrance and your 3rd's entrance. You want to be able to defend against roaches using as few force fields as possible.
Why Stargate?
+ Show Spoiler +I was not a huge fan of SG play until I started messing around with this style. The SG will net you a void and 4-5 phoenixes which you will use to: - Scout tech route—is it roach? Roach hydra? Hydra ling? Muta? Infestor?—Important to know
- Deny tower/frontal vision—If your opponent has control of the towers or lings dancing somewhere between the two of you, he will KNOW that you are not moving out. If he does not, he does not know if you are or if you are not moving out with some silly 2 base push. So even though you aren’t hitting a 2 base timing—which he will want to be looking for—he will have to devote more resources than usual—additional lings, overlords, and actions/attention to address the issue.
- Deny overlord scouts—although he will know you have a void ray, he will not know the timings of your gateways nor how many you are adding. He will not know the timing of your WG research. He will not know whether or not you have a 2nd stargate in there Geniusing/Partinging (Partyinging?) it up. Later, you will be able to snatch up that overlord that likes to hang out in space by your third and laser it to a pulp.
- Scout unit movement—is he moving out with a handful of roaches to pressure your 3rd? You’re going to want to know. Does he have overlord speed? I wonder what’s coming… *see Audibles section for more on dealing with various pressure strategies
- Provide a ready core of phoenix against Spire openers
- Draw fungals away from your ground army, and even snatch up Infestors during engagements or when they are being rallied carelessly
- Deter roach busts, and deal some chip damage as they scuttle across the map
Identifying 3 Hatch before gas
+ Show Spoiler +You should be able to see the 3rd hatch start. It will typically go down a little bit before the 5 minute mark.
If you scout pool-hatch, you're most likely facing 3 hatch before gas, but it is still wise to confirm the 3rd hatch with your probe scout. Leave with your probe before lings are out and hide it on the map and then scout for the 3rd.
Phase 1: FFE + SG Opener
Up to completion of Void Ray; roughly 52 food, ~7:40
FFE of your choice. Here’s mine:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon, CB nexus 10 + 12
14 Forge (CB nex@25 energy –optional)
17 Nexus
17 Cannon
17 Pylon
18 Gateway
19 Gas (CB Nex 1x or 2x)
20 2nd Gas
2xZealot to clear towers and poke zerg's third before starting sentry production
Shortly thereafter,
- Add core when GW is done
- Add SG when core is done
- Start WG research after placing SG
- Add sentries (2 is a good number) from 1st GW before WG is finished
- Add 3rd Gas when SG starts
- Add 4th Gas when 3rd gas finishes, or shortly before it finishes
- Start Void when SG is done
It’s easy to get pylon blocked if you are not already familiar with SG openers. I’ve had success using the following triggers:
After 1st zealot is finishing and 2nd unit out of first gateway gets queued, add a pylon!
After putting down your 3rd gas, add a pylon!
After putting starting your void ray, add two!
At the completion of phase one, You should have:
- ~40 probes (4 gases with 3 probes each)
- 1 Void ray
- 2 Sentries
- 2 Zealots, but they are probably dead. So I guess you don't have them.
- Alternatively, 1 live Zealot
Phase 2: Mid-Game Infrastructure + Make Expansion
Completion of Void to completion of 3rd; roughly 50-110 food, ~7:40 - ~12:30
As your void is finishing up, queue up your first phoenix and add 3 gateways, followed by +1 ground weapons and a robotics. Once it's completed, Get an observer for burrow shenanigans and start your support bay. You can add an immortal if you feel unsafe. I like to go up to 4-5 phoenixes with this style. I feel like getting more is too great a gas investment, but getting less will prevent your SG units from doing damage if the opportunity arises.
Use whatever chronoboosts you aren’t spending on your SG on your forge. When +1 is done, start +1 ground armor. Start your Twilight when +1 armor is about halfway done. *See variants section for more on this
If your opponent went 3 hatch before gas, you’ll soon be taking your 3rd. If your opponent did not take a 3rd up to this point—should be around the 8:00 to 8:30 mark, I would not take a 3rd and instead add additional gates and a faster twilight to get ready for whatever the hell is about to hit you, or prepare for whatever lair tech your opponent chooses.
Upon the completion of WG, get a handful of sentries out. You want to have at least 6 now, and you will want 7-8 by the time your push is ready to leave. I wouldn’t get any more than 8, as you will want that supply/gas for other things.
When your support bay is done, start your first colossus and colossus range.
Use your SG units or your ground units (should be a few zealots and a handful of sentries) to clear your 3rd of lings and overlords.
Take your 3rd and add 2-3 pylons around it to reduce attackable surface area. When these pylons are done, add 3-4 cannons and gates to simcity. Position your ground units to deny ling scouts (when possible; you will most likely not be able to deny scouting on maps like metal, shakuras or cloud kingdom where the 3rd entrance is far from your nat entrance).
Begin adding pylons and gateways thereafter to prepare for the massive surge you will get from taking your 3rd. You'll want 8 gateways at this point.
At the end of phase 2, you should have:
- 60+ Probes; shoot for the 65 area when your nexus is completing
- 1 Observer
- 1 Void ray
- 4-5 Phoenixes
- 7-8 Sentries
- Some safety Stalkers, if needed
- Some zealots
- +1/+1 ground upgrades
- 1 Colossus
- 8 Gates
- Robotics + Bay
- Twilight Council
Phase 3: Then Defense It
completion of 3rd to PUSH, roughly 12:30 to PUSH
From here, you will want to go up to 10 gates, chaining colossus out and completing +2 ground weapons. Start blink when money allows, but make sure you start it before your 2nd colossus is done to ensure you have it when you move out.
You'll want to stop probe production when you have 16-18 probes at each of your 3 bases and all 6 gases saturated. This comes out to 66-72. 72 Is ideal.
Begin dumping all of your resources into stalkers, making sure you can begin your 3rd colossus when the 2nd one is popping out.
Your 3rd colossus should pop as +2 weapons finishes. This is when you go. Have a probe throw down some pylons along the way.
You will henceforth reinforce with pure stalkers as gas allows. If gas dries up when cool downs are available, go ahead and grab some zealots-- just keep burning all of those WG cooldowns as soon as they cool off. Feel free to add on 2 additional gates (going up to 12) to compensate for cutting colossus production just as you leave. You want your reinforcing units in the fight as soon as possible.
You should be at around 160 when you are moving out, depending on how much resources you lost to harass/pokes at your nat and 3rd. If you did not lose a significant amount of units, your push will be extremely powerful. It will not be denied unless your opponent managed to sneak out some super fast brood lords. Even then, it is likely he will not have enough ground support to deal with your surge.
Upon moving out, make sure you seal your natural wall with a zealot and that your 3rd is simcitied so that a counter or a run-by does not end in disaster. You should have:
- 66-72 Probes
- 3 Colossus + Range
- 7-8 Sentries
- +2/+1 ground upgrades
- At least 1 Observer
- Whatever Zealots and Whatever SG units have survived--hopefully your void and 4 phoenixes
- A few WG rounds of Blink Stalkers
- 10-12 Gates
**You will be shooting up in supply as you are moving out, so make sure you have the pylons to support 10-12 Warpgates!**
Audibles
This build assumes standard roach opener, and will work against roach/infestor/corruptor as is. but........
...Despite seeing your SG tech, your opponent goes for mutalisks:
You'll want a slightly faster blink (otherwise, your TC will be used for +2 until blink is convenient) and to cut colossus production at 2 and move for storm tech. Your 3rd should be up by the time the mutas are in big enough damage. Fend off the harass with your B stalkers, storm and the phoenixes you already have. I don't think adding more phoenixes and switching into air tech is your best bet if you've already invested a lot of resources elsewhere Move out when you are nearing max, provided you have enough cannons and HT hanging around to make a muta base trade more expensive for your opponent.
...With your pheonix, you scout hydra tech after lair:
Scout for his 4th base. If he hasn't taken one, do not take your 3rd. If you've already started it, cancel it. Go up to 8 gateways, get a faster blink, and CB your col/col range/warpgates exclusively. Don't cut upgrades. Keep tabs on whether or not your opponent has overlord speed, as this will tip a roach/hydra or hydra/ling drop. You'd be wise to add additional cannons, as stalker/sentry/colossus only deal well with roaches when you have forcefields to stop his roaches from attacking much at all until you are close to maxed. Take your 3rd the second you begin to stabalize and proceed.
...You scout early hive tech and see corruptors:
If you reckon you can break him--that is, you can hit him before his BL tech has paid off, or you can crush him army outright regardless, go for it! Infestors are annoying, but as long as you maintain a sentry count of 7-8 and deny fungals on your sentries with good forcefields, roach/infestor/corruptor alone will not stop you. If you determine you won't be able to break him, and he has taken a 4th, take your 4th and add a fleat beacon and head for mothership tech. If he hasn't taken a 4th at this point, stay on 3 bases and tech up to mothership just the same. In both cases, go ahead and add in HT tech for archons to summplement your mothership. From here, it is all about economy management and positioning. If you commit to an engagement but fudge the vortex/toilet or get your mothership NP'd, you are in a rough spot. Begin to sacrifice probes so that you have enough to saturate 2 bases at any one time (55-60 is a good target). If he goes for an ultra switch, laugh as you mass archon/chargelot with a dash of immortal. Add air support if you can afford air upgrades.
Your perfect late game composition will be:
Vs BL-centered army:
Voids/Carriers/Ht/Archon/Mothership with some colossus and stalker support
Vs Ultra-centered army:
Archon/Mothership/whatever air you can afford with some colossus/immortal/zealot support.
Variants
- 3 base 3 colossus +3
This is a bit greedy but certainly feasible if no drop play is coming. Start your twilight when +1 is about halfway done, and simply chain your +2 with your +1's completion. Start blink so that it will be done roughly when you are moving out.
- 3 Base 4 Colossus 2/1
If you CB your colossus production over upgrades, you will be able to have 4 colossus done when +2 is finished. You will be just slightly lighter on stalkers and thus more susceptible to heavy corruptor play, which is why I favor 3 colossus.
Resources
Vods:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66959
GSL Finals Game 1 on Daybreak
Genius does a very similar opening, but gets twilight and stalkers before his robotics support so robo tech is delayed. He still ends up moving out with 3 colossus and +3. He doesn't begin colossus production until he has finished an immortal in this case. The push is a bit later but still very strong as DRG's BL tech hasn't kicked in
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/#/de/vod/view/23709/high
here's feast using such a style vs idra's ling muta at IEM march. He gets out 2 immortals from his robotics pretty quickly, something I'm starting to like!
i'd like to reiterate that i really do not see adding additional phoenixes and working on air upgrades as being worthwhile as a response to muta play. in total he added 6 phoenixes after scouting muta tech as well as the +1 air.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66892/?set=5&lang=
GSTL from 2/17/2012
Game 5 Finale vs Leenock. He gets the twilight slightly quicker, but it doesn't seem to change that much. He starts the 3rd right before 9 mins which is safe on a map like that where you have your own path between your nat and your 3rd and the expansions are not terribly open
Replays:
http://drop.sc/128350
Vs. Roach + fast hive tech
Opponent reacts to the fast 3rd by going for a burrow roach push at the third, but it is a little late and he does not really commit to it. He then double expands and techs straight to BLs, not anticipating how quickly this push hits. I should have cleared out his overlord spotting the 3rd.
http://drop.sc/125637
Vs. Roach Infestor
Opponent sees my 3rd timing very early, as I failed to clear my 3rd before starting it. He responds by double expanding and getting out a bunch of infestors to stall any push before his economy can kick in. The push comes before this would have happened.
http://drop.sc/125727
Vs. Roach Hydra
I mistook 3 base zerg for a 2 base zerg and added gates before putting down my third because I always assume the zerg will expand away from me. He goes for a roach/hydra push and is able to abuse the open space between the pocket 3rd and the natural. If you use this style on this map, taking the close-ground natural might work, but you might get caught between your natural and your 3rd against aggression builds, be they drops or heavy burrow roach busts. I'm not sure how I feel about this map, yet.
http://drop.sc/128351
Vs. Muta
I should have been scouting for his tech more attentively. As it was, I only see the mutas as they're headed to my base. Ideally, I would have spotted this and built more cannons and teched towards storm sooner. I also respond by adding additional phoenixes and +1 air weapons, though I don't think this was a wise investment.
http://drop.sc/128360
Vs. Roach Infestor
Opponent opens with a small roach pressure before getting his 3rd. I've found that chrono'ing out a stalker and pulling all probes from the natural is a better response rather than adding a billion cannons, if at all possible. From here I opt to cut the early blink for a 2nd robotics in response to his late spire tech.
http://drop.sc/125646
Vs. Roach Inefstor
Opponent is able to do a lot of damage due to my poor spotting with SG units. You need to watch all possible paths of attack in order to pull this off cleanly. I had known he didn't have BLs yet, and had much better scouting earlier I could have ended this much sooner
http://drop.sc/125639
Vs. Roach Corruptor
This is from last patch and I apologize for that. A bit of a variation here. No SG opener and a faster blink for safety, but still hits with 4 colo and 2/1 at a pretty good time
http://drop.sc/128424
Vs. Roach burrow into hive
Bad scouting allows my opponent to do a lot of damage. The push is delayed so much that it is not worth doing. He switches into ultras, though I think a BL tech would have killed me. Hour-long game if anyone is interested :D
Faster Blink / Immortal Heavy
http://drop.sc/140435
http://drop.sc/140823
http://drop.sc/140825
http://drop.sc/140824
Thanks for the read!
-aLeJ
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Thank you for writing this very detailed guide. I appreciate your contributions a lot. Might I ask how you handle fast 3 base no saturation pure roach spam or roach ling allin? I've been dying a lot vs mass roach armies that are created in 1 go so hard to scout.
edit: I can't watch your reps now and I read that you specifically do this vs roaches but I get wasted by very large numbers of roaches and I can't ff them out on a lot of the newer maps like entombed, cloud, and some other maps as well
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On March 08 2012 18:27 Xaldarian wrote:
Thank you for writing this very detailed guide. I appreciate your contributions a lot. Might I ask how you handle fast 3 base no saturation pure roach spam or roach ling allin? I've been dying a lot vs mass roach armies that are created in 1 go so hard to scout.
without a replay all i can venture to say is that you need a good map, good scouting and good force fields. when is this hitting?
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Pretty awesome guide! Just one thing, you have the same link for the Muta replay as well as the Roach replay.
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I've been toying with this style for awhile, and I've come to the conclusion that after stargate play, with your gates and robo, take third, but don't get the colossus tech, start to saturate your third, get a faster blink, get 3+ immortals out, then take a 2nd robo as you're saturated and are looking to take your 4th. I'd say they only time it's worth getting the colossus earlier is vs infestor ling play, or sometimes muta ling play if you can do enough damage and use the phoenixes to defend. Any roach based play I just don't like the colossus.
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Around the time I could get my first few stargate units. so a standard fast 3 base but he then only produces roaches to bust my buildings. not enough ffs can't produce enough gateway units or cannons to defend properly. I scout his third my scout probe or zealot dies then I see him coming because of the xel naga and add sentries cannons everything but I simply am overwhelmed. this is on korhal btw.
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On March 08 2012 18:34 Corrosive wrote:
Pretty awesome guide! Just one thing, you have the same link for the Muta replay as well as the Roach replay.
fixed! thanks!
On March 08 2012 18:35 Lobber wrote:
I've been toying with this style for awhile, and I've come to the conclusion that after stargate play, with your gates and robo, take third, but don't get the colossus tech, start to saturate your third, get a faster blink, get 3+ immortals out, then take a 2nd robo as you're saturated and are looking to take your 4th. I'd say they only time it's worth getting the colossus earlier is vs infestor ling play, or sometimes muta ling play if you can do enough damage and use the phoenixes to defend. Any roach based play I just don't like the colossus.
While I agree that colossus aren't great against pure roach, I like colossus for this timing and for general versatility. Roach openers will almost inevitably transition into infestor play, especially if lots of immortals are abound. I like colossus vs. roach/infestor way more than immortals. Even if I was looking to take a 4th with this opening, I'm not sure if I'd opt to mix in several immortals. Once that initial roach max, or even just a few injects worth of roaches are cleared up, immortals don't really do well against what is going to come afterwards.. unless it's more roaches.. and ZvP when protoss is on 4 bases favors more supply efficient units
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On March 08 2012 18:37 Xaldarian wrote:
Around the time I could get my first few stargate units. so a standard fast 3 base but he then only produces roaches to bust my buildings. not enough ffs can't produce enough gateway units or cannons to defend properly. I scout his third my scout probe or zealot dies then I see him coming because of the xel naga and add sentries cannons everything but I simply am overwhelmed. this is on korhal btw.
ah. don't do this on korhal. too much open space to guard between 3rd and natural
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All these perfect guides for protoss causing the ladder to rage.
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Alejandrisha I love you... Your guides give me hope.
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No I meant me on 2 bases vs 3 base pure roach. how can I defend my natural at all? its to wide for ffs ad mass roach seems to do guaranteed damage. I've faced players who sacrifice roaches to snipe my gate core forge or even my nexus.
colossi are awesome vs roaches but it's the time before I get them out. I normally play a twilight robo templar style, in that order, or stargate twilight so I have enough versatility to handle the things zerg throws at me.
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On March 08 2012 20:30 Xaldarian wrote:
No I meant me on 2 bases vs 3 base pure roach. how can I defend my natural at all? its to wide for ffs ad mass roach seems to do guaranteed damage. I've faced players who sacrifice roaches to snipe my gate core forge or even my nexus.
colossi are awesome vs roaches but it's the time before I get them out. I normally play a twilight robo templar style, in that order, or stargate twilight so I have enough versatility to handle the things zerg throws at me.
if you're on 2 bases having trouble against 3 base roach pushes, i suggest using builds that use 4-5 gates and a robo as their immediate mid-game core off of FFE for an immortal or two before following up with subsequent tech upon scouting a roach opener (you can survive with 1 gate robo off of an ffe with sentries, unless they're doing an extreeeemely cheesy ~20 drone 2 base roach push. again, this is very map-dependent). While you won't be able to ff efficiently on korhal, you should be able to trade cost effectively with 6-sentries, an immortal or two and whatever stalkers you can afford while teching.
I find stargate twlight openers a bit gimmicky in that you don't have aoe until storm is out, and even then your aoe is not as reliable as colossus aoe--unless you're against muta, of course.
I'd favor robo-twilight over twilight-robo openers for the sake of earlier scouting and mobile detection. burrow and burrow movement are trendy right now, and you don't want to engage roaches only to have your opponent's losses somewhat ameliorated by a single research. heavy 2 base plays are another story, however. if you're going for a 2 base blink timing, then you can delay the robo so that you get the observer when you need it for the sake of detection for pushing rather than for gathering information off of which you make detections
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You should be able to see the 3rd hatch start. It will typically go down a little bit before the 5 minute mark.
If you scout pool-hatch, you're most likely facing 3 hatch before gas, but it is still wise to confirm the 3rd hatch with your probe scout. Leave with your probe before lings are out and hide it on the map and then scout for the 3rd.
Certain zerg openers allow for a 3rd hatch at 6:00. They won't place it down before that time.
11/18 -> 6:00 3rd hatch
12/19 and 15(16) hatch allow for earlier thirds.
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On March 08 2012 22:02 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +You should be able to see the 3rd hatch start. It will typically go down a little bit before the 5 minute mark.
If you scout pool-hatch, you're most likely facing 3 hatch before gas, but it is still wise to confirm the 3rd hatch with your probe scout. Leave with your probe before lings are out and hide it on the map and then scout for the 3rd. Certain zerg openers allow for a 3rd hatch at 6:00. They won't place it down before that time. 11/18 -> 6:00 3rd hatch 12/19 and 15(16) hatch allow for earlier thirds.
i'm always checking for the 3rd at around 5 mins, either on my own accord or after a ling has found my hidden probe. whether or not i find it, i will get those 2 zealots to do a second round of scouting. can be really useful at time to spot for # of lings on map, gas after lings clear probe-->ling speed tricks, possible roaches, slightly later 3rd timing and that sort of thing. it even once won me a game vs proxy hatch + spines out in front of the ffe that i didn't scout until my zealots happened upon it and canceled spines before enough lings arrived :D
i speak here generally of 14/16, the one i see pretty much every pvz :D
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yay, seems like another great guide, thanks man 
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well written guide, but i have some fears about this on a very high level:
1) i dont think you will be able to expand to your 3rd even with that many sentrys vs a well controlled mass roach 3 base attack - you would def need immortals for that on every map besides entombed valley.
2) ofc you have a stargate and phoenixes - but that doesnt mean the zergplayer wont massmuta anyways. 1 stargate wont help you, your colossus-tech would be more or less useless and youd still have a very hard time to secure an "early" 3rd.
3) stargate-openings: Zerg sees the stargate-units, how will he react: build queens, some spores and drone like crazy. stargate units most of the time mean for the zergplayer, that he will be able to drone up to 80 without problems, he doesnt have to fear a very early 2 base allin - some roaches deal with +1 zealots. therefore, you will be in an economical disadvantage anyways.
4) Your base builds around Zergplayers delaying their Hive.
Many players nowadays abuse that fact and simply tech straight to broodlords, relying on ling/hydra/corrupter to defend their 3 base, taking a "late" 4th:
Bly, Tefel and other Zergs have a maxed! army consisting of 8 broodlords, some corrupters, mass ling/hydra around the 14(!) to 15 minute mark. While its extremly hard to stop that push anyway as protoss, your build is very weak to earlier broodlords i feel.
And believe me - corrupter zergling hydra is stronger against your initial push then u would ever think.... especially on creep :/
5) moving out so "early" in PvZ is risky imo - ling /roach counter attacks everywhere make it extremly hard to ever move out before the 14-15 minute mark imo. Some zergplayers simply w8 for you to move out to run in their several groups of units hidden somewhere on the map. hard to deal with when u rely on pushing out!
I still like your build though - there isnt a build that is safe against anything the zerg can do. We still rely on scouting info, good reactions and a little bit of luck with any build out there - thats how PvZ outside of 2 base allins works nowadays.
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Even though I don't play protoss, I have to say that this guide was excellent. Really well structured and interesting text! Good work!
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Been playing like this for a while, pretty cool to see something come up and document it. The pack of phoenix works so splendidly throughout the game; picking up Infestors, a little group pre-ready against large Muta numbers, scouting ahead and around.
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On March 08 2012 23:02 KalWarkov wrote:
well written guide, but i have some fears about this on a very high level:
1) i dont think you will be able to expand to your 3rd even with that many sentrys vs a well controlled mass roach 3 base attack - you would def need immortals for that on every map besides entombed valley.
2) ofc you have a stargate and phoenixes - but that doesnt mean the zergplayer wont massmuta anyways. 1 stargate wont help you, your colossus-tech would be more or less useless and youd still have a very hard time to secure an "early" 3rd.
3) stargate-openings: Zerg sees the stargate-units, how will he react: build queens, some spores and drone like crazy. stargate units most of the time mean for the zergplayer, that he will be able to drone up to 80 without problems, he doesnt have to fear a very early 2 base allin - some roaches deal with +1 zealots. therefore, you will be in an economical disadvantage anyways.
4) Your base builds around Zergplayers delaying their Hive.
Many players nowadays abuse that fact and simply tech straight to broodlords, relying on ling/hydra/corrupter to defend their 3 base, taking a "late" 4th:
Bly, Tefel and other Zergs have a maxed! army consisting of 8 broodlords, some corrupters, mass ling/hydra around the 14(!) to 15 minute mark. While its extremly hard to stop that push anyway as protoss, your build is very weak to earlier broodlords i feel.
And believe me - corrupter zergling hydra is stronger against your initial push then u would ever think.... especially on creep :/
5) moving out so "early" in PvZ is risky imo - ling /roach counter attacks everywhere make it extremly hard to ever move out before the 14-15 minute mark imo. Some zergplayers simply w8 for you to move out to run in their several groups of units hidden somewhere on the map. hard to deal with when u rely on pushing out!
I still like your build though - there isnt a build that is safe against anything the zerg can do. We still rely on scouting info, good reactions and a little bit of luck with any build out there - thats how PvZ outside of 2 base allins works nowadays.
I've played a strategy very similar to the build in the OP quite a lot, and I'd echo these concerns.
The #1 thing people should understand when going for this strategy is that it's designed to hit a potentially narrow window after your army is strong enough to beat a maxed roach army (so after about 160-170 food), but before Z has broodlords. If you go for the 3 colossus timing, you will lose if you don't kill him because you won't have the infrastructure to deal with hive tech. The other option is skipping the timing attack and going straight into 4 base mothership+carrier+archon, but I think there are better builds to transition into this lategame.
Secondly, the build lets Z drone straight to 75 workers. This can come back to bite you in a number of ways. Z can go into mass roach aggro mode to deny your third, and with a 75 worker economic base, he'll probably succeed. Alternatively, Z can take a quick 4th and go into super muta mode which is a strong style of play made stronger by the lack of 2 base pressure. Z's third option is to take the econ lead and go straight into infestor+broodlord. As KalWarkov mentioned, Z can get a maxed infestor+broodlord army by about 15 minutes if you skip your 2 base timing. The build in the OP seems weak to fast hive tech since it won't have the right infrastructure in time.
Lastly, it's tough to attack and win when you're at 160 food and Z is at 200 food and massing reinforcements. Your army is stronger than a maxed roach/corruptor army, but since you don't have the tech to deal with infestor+BL, you need to do big damage with the 15 min timing. Z will often narrowly hold and then win with a BL counter-attack a couple minutes later.
Your build is sort of the brother build to the strategy I wrote up here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300535. The differences are that your build skips the zealot+void pressure and instead harasses with phoenix, and you go for colossus instead of templar. I've played both styles a lot (as well as an immortal-focused strategy that delays AoE tech for a really beefy army that has a timing attack at about 13 min). Generally speaking, the colossus route allows for a great pre-BL timing attack, but the templar route is better for transitioning into post-hive play.
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I've been studing this build since a month and i have to say, in the current meta is one of the best non-2base options. Btw i hate you for spoiling the build, lol.
(NOTE: All the top P's are just going 2 base play aganist z, ALL, except for Genius and Hero; why? cose you kinda need to outplay your z rival to beat his macro capabilities).
Some of my notes for it:
- For the "high level fear": Genius used it in the GSL aganist Nestea and Drg, both wins, period.
- Add the Genius vs Nestea game. GSL Ro16 Game 3. Perfect example of handling a denied 3rd Nexus.
- For safety purposes (specially in the current "drg" meta) i preffer doing the Genius way and chrono an immorthal out (add another in case of confirmed drg roach style), or the 3rd may fall easier.
- You MUST get info in your phoenix harass. Check the z tech route and react properly.
- In every game that Genius use this build, he makes a phoenix raid taking 8-14 drones, besides ovi and queen kills. Imo this is a must, to make the phoenixes worth it. Also, with decent micro, you MUST be able to do it.
- Chrono extra immorthals in case of roach drg style, chrono extra phoenix in case of muta play. Well microed 6 phoenixes should deal with minor muta numbers, same for more phoenixes with bigger cloud + some stalker as base defense. Also, Genius chrono out +1 air weapons for muta play.
- I'm just a high masters scrub and not faced fast hive aganist this build yet (z's no not know how to react yet lol), but i guess that if the z goes for fast BL, he cannot punish your 3rd as a hard roach based play, so your push can have more units (those who do not fell defending the 3rd). In this case also (scouted with phoenixes, a must), i do not wait for 3rd collosi, 2 should be enough, as long u have blink ( and of curse blink should be out for that time).
- This build is really fun, and amazing to train multi tasking. To the success of the build, you're forced to micro with less units (for a window) and you must deal damage with phoenixes while macroing efficiently.
- As this build gets popular, z's will learn how to defend it. Then the Void - 6 gates timming (faking this build), will be really effective.
Imo the hardest is to defend a well excecuted drg roach style, cose he can 1a trading units , and still transition into tech, while you must really micromanage your expensive units both fronts.
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EPT
