EPT
[G] PvZ - 3 Base 3 Col vs 3 Hatch - Page 3
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On March 09 2012 10:55 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: How do you decide if you want to pressure with two chrono'd zealots, or just get 1 zealot then some sentries, or any other combo of gateway units+tactics off of your first gate? I usually just go 2 zealots blindly for safety and to guarantee clearing of towers unless speed and a silly amount of lings are out--in which case i have that bit of information to use. against a speed opener I'll typically move out with the two zealots to the tower but keep a probe in the 1 hole slot just in case. Either that or vs. speed opener i'll just get 1 zeal to hold the choke and switch to sentries | ||
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iGX
Australia414 Posts
Thanks so much for this! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On March 09 2012 10:51 Balgrog wrote: Great guide, I have actually been doing this (not this build but the strategy) for awhile now, no credit to Genius? well i put the vod in the OP, but i have seen another protoss open this way in gsl before him so to give this build a true "inventor" wouldn't really be fair unless i could actually find who it was. and it's not like there are databases full of kr replays lying around everywhere :D | ||
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
Secondly, do you do any coaching ? | ||
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CuHz
United States354 Posts
whats your opinion on keepin the SG pumpin voids. vs mass'ing gateway stalkers instead. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote: This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo? I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On March 10 2012 03:26 Arcanefrost wrote: Have you tried going faster tc and +3? I always feel like 3/0 is a lot scarier than 2/1. ofcourse this would slow your robo down slightly, but I think it might be worth it. yep there's a mention of that in the OP but I like the faster robo. i find a faster 1st col makes me feel a bit safe than a faster blink. and if all goes well, i don't want to warp in stalkers before i need to in the case no fast 3 base pressure is coming | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On March 10 2012 05:42 sleepingdog wrote: I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful. yeah a lot of this style is about denying scouting of the 3rd, but of course a good zerg will be trying to find out if you are taking a 3rd by sending additional speed lings if the original ols/lings get cleared out. the longer you can deny scouting the smaller the window for his attack / his period to power drones in response depending on what he wants to do | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
which transitions into a similar midgame and the following timing attack? | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 10 2012 05:42 sleepingdog wrote: I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful. This. My PvZ has gone to hell in the last week or 2 as Zerg players figured out the Stephano style. It's not like the Stephano style is some huge breakthough where players had never thought to mass speed roaches before, but they're doing it much better now. Up until recently, Zerg players knew roaches were good, but they just didn't know the right timings for their gas, roach warren, evolution chamber and lair. The timings on the lair and roach warren used to fluctuate quite a bit. Some players would get greedy with drones and start their lair before roach warren to be able to research speed when the warren finished--I used to see roach warrens starting at 9 minutes. This was punished really hard by any sort of +1 zealot pressure. Then players started getting the roach warren earlier, but they delayed the lair and missile upgrades. This kept the Zerg safe, but with delayed roach speed and missile upgrades, it left Protoss with enough time to set up a defense at their third. Then the Zerg players watched Stephano's build with a 7 minute roach warren and a timely lair, and they saw that you can have a few slow roaches to defend the +1 zealot 8 minute timing and also have 200/200 of speed roaches by 12 minutes. They saw how Stephano was able to achieve (1) complete safety against 2-base timings, and (2) an ability to kill the Protoss third just about every time. I don't know how to beat the Stephano style, but I don't think SG into colossus with a 13 minute third is the solution. Too much tech, not enough meat on the army, too late on 3-base production if Z ever manages to trade units. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 14 2012 04:49 kcdc wrote: This. My PvZ has gone to hell in the last week or 2 as Zerg players figured out the Stephano style. It's not like the Stephano style is some huge breakthough where players had never though to mass speed roaches before, but they're doing it much better now. Up until recently, Zerg players knew roaches were good, but they just didn't know the right timings for their gas, roach warren, evolution chamber and lair. The timings on the lair and roach warren used to fluctuate quite a bit. Some players would get greedy with drones and start their lair before roach warren to be able to research speed when the warren finished--I used to see roach warrens starting at 9 minutes. This was punished really hard by any sort of +1 zealot pressure. Then players started getting the roach warren earlier, but they delayed the lair and missile upgrades. This kept the Zerg safe, but with delayed roach speed and missile upgrades, it left Protoss with enough time to set up a defense at their third. Then the Zerg players watched Stephano's build with a 7 minute roach warren and a timely lair, and they saw that you can have a few slow roaches to defend the +1 zealot 8 minute timing and also have 200/200 of speed roaches by 12 minutes. They saw how Stephano was able to achieve (1) complete safety against 2-base timings, and (2) an ability to kill the Protoss third just about every time. I don't know how to beat the Stephano style, but I don't think SG into colossus with a 13 minute third is the solution. Too much tech, not enough meat on the army, too late on 3-base production if Z ever manages to trade units. Yeah I could not agree more. It's something I realized a while ago because even though perhaps zergs you might run into on the ladder were slower to pick optimal timings/proper responses, practice partners quickly learn your playstyle/timings and the game devolves into a guessing game/mind game, which is why IMO PvZ looks the way it does in tourneys where you can study opponent's playstyle ahead of time and play them multiple games in a row. How the game plays out in a FFE vs 3 hatch scenario is just too mapped out at this point. I just see no possible way to secure a fast 3rd in PvZ without severely outplaying your opponent through a combination of mind games, scout denial (which is impossible on some maps). or incredibly favorable engagements. This is why you always see protoss make a ton a sentries whenever they attempt to get a fast 3rd because FF is essentially required to have any chance of winning engagements vs larger armies cost-efficiently. Add that to the fact that Protoss is the absolutely the worse race at establishing hidden expansions and the prospects of a macro-oriented FFE playstyle looks grim indeed. That said, I've found 2-base robo openings quite strong due to the variations of 2-base timings possible. The initial warp prism gives you early scouting/map presence and allows you to apply some early pressure and can be varied with sentry drops, zealot drops, FF in the main, etc. so even if the zerg knows it's coming you can vary your points of attack, execution, unit comp, etc. to keep it viable. Then you can follow-up w/ a 3 Immortal timing which is ridic strong, or if zerg starts to catch on and makes fast hydras you can also switch it up on the fly and do a later 2 colossus timing. As long as you can kill the 3rd the game essentially resets econ-wise and you then have the option of grabbing your 3rd or going for the kill. I've also been experimenting with this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275) 1-gate FE build a bit recently and IMO it shows a lot of promise, but whether that is because zerg players don't know how to react to it properly yet or not remains to be seen. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
finale vs leenock from gstl.. game 5! http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66892/?set=5&lang= | ||
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xeo1
United States429 Posts
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Ksquared
United States1748 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
will keep practicing! | ||
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