|
FFE SG opener into 3 Base 3 Colossus
vs. standard 3 Hatch before gas
Sick of brainlessly rolling the 2 base dice? Want to smash some Zerg face before he gets up in yours with that hellish Brood Lord Infestor ball and plants 40 spine crawlers at every expansion? This may help.
This style aims to hit a 3 base timing that includes:
- 3 Colossus with range and 2/1 Upgrades
- 7-8 Sentries
- A horde of blink stalkers
The proverbial "Protoss deathball" lol
… at the 15 minute mark
Administrative stuff
Preferred maps: The Shattered Temple, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley
OK maps: Antiguua Shipyard, Tal’Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau
Bad maps: Korhal Compound, Metalopolis
You don't want large pockets of space between your natural entrance and your 3rd's entrance. You want to be able to defend against roaches using as few force fields as possible.
Why Stargate?
+ Show Spoiler +I was not a huge fan of SG play until I started messing around with this style. The SG will net you a void and 4-5 phoenixes which you will use to: - Scout tech route—is it roach? Roach hydra? Hydra ling? Muta? Infestor?—Important to know
- Deny tower/frontal vision—If your opponent has control of the towers or lings dancing somewhere between the two of you, he will KNOW that you are not moving out. If he does not, he does not know if you are or if you are not moving out with some silly 2 base push. So even though you aren’t hitting a 2 base timing—which he will want to be looking for—he will have to devote more resources than usual—additional lings, overlords, and actions/attention to address the issue.
- Deny overlord scouts—although he will know you have a void ray, he will not know the timings of your gateways nor how many you are adding. He will not know the timing of your WG research. He will not know whether or not you have a 2nd stargate in there Geniusing/Partinging (Partyinging?) it up. Later, you will be able to snatch up that overlord that likes to hang out in space by your third and laser it to a pulp.
- Scout unit movement—is he moving out with a handful of roaches to pressure your 3rd? You’re going to want to know. Does he have overlord speed? I wonder what’s coming… *see Audibles section for more on dealing with various pressure strategies
- Provide a ready core of phoenix against Spire openers
- Draw fungals away from your ground army, and even snatch up Infestors during engagements or when they are being rallied carelessly
- Deter roach busts, and deal some chip damage as they scuttle across the map
Identifying 3 Hatch before gas
+ Show Spoiler +You should be able to see the 3rd hatch start. It will typically go down a little bit before the 5 minute mark.
If you scout pool-hatch, you're most likely facing 3 hatch before gas, but it is still wise to confirm the 3rd hatch with your probe scout. Leave with your probe before lings are out and hide it on the map and then scout for the 3rd.
Phase 1: FFE + SG Opener
Up to completion of Void Ray; roughly 52 food, ~7:40
FFE of your choice. Here’s mine:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon, CB nexus 10 + 12
14 Forge (CB nex@25 energy –optional)
17 Nexus
17 Cannon
17 Pylon
18 Gateway
19 Gas (CB Nex 1x or 2x)
20 2nd Gas
2xZealot to clear towers and poke zerg's third before starting sentry production
Shortly thereafter,
- Add core when GW is done
- Add SG when core is done
- Start WG research after placing SG
- Add sentries (2 is a good number) from 1st GW before WG is finished
- Add 3rd Gas when SG starts
- Add 4th Gas when 3rd gas finishes, or shortly before it finishes
- Start Void when SG is done
It’s easy to get pylon blocked if you are not already familiar with SG openers. I’ve had success using the following triggers:
After 1st zealot is finishing and 2nd unit out of first gateway gets queued, add a pylon!
After putting down your 3rd gas, add a pylon!
After putting starting your void ray, add two!
At the completion of phase one, You should have:
- ~40 probes (4 gases with 3 probes each)
- 1 Void ray
- 2 Sentries
- 2 Zealots, but they are probably dead. So I guess you don't have them.
- Alternatively, 1 live Zealot
Phase 2: Mid-Game Infrastructure + Make Expansion
Completion of Void to completion of 3rd; roughly 50-110 food, ~7:40 - ~12:30
As your void is finishing up, queue up your first phoenix and add 3 gateways, followed by +1 ground weapons and a robotics. Once it's completed, Get an observer for burrow shenanigans and start your support bay. You can add an immortal if you feel unsafe. I like to go up to 4-5 phoenixes with this style. I feel like getting more is too great a gas investment, but getting less will prevent your SG units from doing damage if the opportunity arises.
Use whatever chronoboosts you aren’t spending on your SG on your forge. When +1 is done, start +1 ground armor. Start your Twilight when +1 armor is about halfway done. *See variants section for more on this
If your opponent went 3 hatch before gas, you’ll soon be taking your 3rd. If your opponent did not take a 3rd up to this point—should be around the 8:00 to 8:30 mark, I would not take a 3rd and instead add additional gates and a faster twilight to get ready for whatever the hell is about to hit you, or prepare for whatever lair tech your opponent chooses.
Upon the completion of WG, get a handful of sentries out. You want to have at least 6 now, and you will want 7-8 by the time your push is ready to leave. I wouldn’t get any more than 8, as you will want that supply/gas for other things.
When your support bay is done, start your first colossus and colossus range.
Use your SG units or your ground units (should be a few zealots and a handful of sentries) to clear your 3rd of lings and overlords.
Take your 3rd and add 2-3 pylons around it to reduce attackable surface area. When these pylons are done, add 3-4 cannons and gates to simcity. Position your ground units to deny ling scouts (when possible; you will most likely not be able to deny scouting on maps like metal, shakuras or cloud kingdom where the 3rd entrance is far from your nat entrance).
Begin adding pylons and gateways thereafter to prepare for the massive surge you will get from taking your 3rd. You'll want 8 gateways at this point.
At the end of phase 2, you should have:
- 60+ Probes; shoot for the 65 area when your nexus is completing
- 1 Observer
- 1 Void ray
- 4-5 Phoenixes
- 7-8 Sentries
- Some safety Stalkers, if needed
- Some zealots
- +1/+1 ground upgrades
- 1 Colossus
- 8 Gates
- Robotics + Bay
- Twilight Council
Phase 3: Then Defense It
completion of 3rd to PUSH, roughly 12:30 to PUSH
From here, you will want to go up to 10 gates, chaining colossus out and completing +2 ground weapons. Start blink when money allows, but make sure you start it before your 2nd colossus is done to ensure you have it when you move out.
You'll want to stop probe production when you have 16-18 probes at each of your 3 bases and all 6 gases saturated. This comes out to 66-72. 72 Is ideal.
Begin dumping all of your resources into stalkers, making sure you can begin your 3rd colossus when the 2nd one is popping out.
Your 3rd colossus should pop as +2 weapons finishes. This is when you go. Have a probe throw down some pylons along the way.
You will henceforth reinforce with pure stalkers as gas allows. If gas dries up when cool downs are available, go ahead and grab some zealots-- just keep burning all of those WG cooldowns as soon as they cool off. Feel free to add on 2 additional gates (going up to 12) to compensate for cutting colossus production just as you leave. You want your reinforcing units in the fight as soon as possible.
You should be at around 160 when you are moving out, depending on how much resources you lost to harass/pokes at your nat and 3rd. If you did not lose a significant amount of units, your push will be extremely powerful. It will not be denied unless your opponent managed to sneak out some super fast brood lords. Even then, it is likely he will not have enough ground support to deal with your surge.
Upon moving out, make sure you seal your natural wall with a zealot and that your 3rd is simcitied so that a counter or a run-by does not end in disaster. You should have:
- 66-72 Probes
- 3 Colossus + Range
- 7-8 Sentries
- +2/+1 ground upgrades
- At least 1 Observer
- Whatever Zealots and Whatever SG units have survived--hopefully your void and 4 phoenixes
- A few WG rounds of Blink Stalkers
- 10-12 Gates
**You will be shooting up in supply as you are moving out, so make sure you have the pylons to support 10-12 Warpgates!**
Audibles
This build assumes standard roach opener, and will work against roach/infestor/corruptor as is. but........
...Despite seeing your SG tech, your opponent goes for mutalisks:
You'll want a slightly faster blink (otherwise, your TC will be used for +2 until blink is convenient) and to cut colossus production at 2 and move for storm tech. Your 3rd should be up by the time the mutas are in big enough damage. Fend off the harass with your B stalkers, storm and the phoenixes you already have. I don't think adding more phoenixes and switching into air tech is your best bet if you've already invested a lot of resources elsewhere Move out when you are nearing max, provided you have enough cannons and HT hanging around to make a muta base trade more expensive for your opponent.
...With your pheonix, you scout hydra tech after lair:
Scout for his 4th base. If he hasn't taken one, do not take your 3rd. If you've already started it, cancel it. Go up to 8 gateways, get a faster blink, and CB your col/col range/warpgates exclusively. Don't cut upgrades. Keep tabs on whether or not your opponent has overlord speed, as this will tip a roach/hydra or hydra/ling drop. You'd be wise to add additional cannons, as stalker/sentry/colossus only deal well with roaches when you have forcefields to stop his roaches from attacking much at all until you are close to maxed. Take your 3rd the second you begin to stabalize and proceed.
...You scout early hive tech and see corruptors:
If you reckon you can break him--that is, you can hit him before his BL tech has paid off, or you can crush him army outright regardless, go for it! Infestors are annoying, but as long as you maintain a sentry count of 7-8 and deny fungals on your sentries with good forcefields, roach/infestor/corruptor alone will not stop you. If you determine you won't be able to break him, and he has taken a 4th, take your 4th and add a fleat beacon and head for mothership tech. If he hasn't taken a 4th at this point, stay on 3 bases and tech up to mothership just the same. In both cases, go ahead and add in HT tech for archons to summplement your mothership. From here, it is all about economy management and positioning. If you commit to an engagement but fudge the vortex/toilet or get your mothership NP'd, you are in a rough spot. Begin to sacrifice probes so that you have enough to saturate 2 bases at any one time (55-60 is a good target). If he goes for an ultra switch, laugh as you mass archon/chargelot with a dash of immortal. Add air support if you can afford air upgrades.
Your perfect late game composition will be:
Vs BL-centered army:
Voids/Carriers/Ht/Archon/Mothership with some colossus and stalker support
Vs Ultra-centered army:
Archon/Mothership/whatever air you can afford with some colossus/immortal/zealot support.
Variants
- 3 base 3 colossus +3
This is a bit greedy but certainly feasible if no drop play is coming. Start your twilight when +1 is about halfway done, and simply chain your +2 with your +1's completion. Start blink so that it will be done roughly when you are moving out.
- 3 Base 4 Colossus 2/1
If you CB your colossus production over upgrades, you will be able to have 4 colossus done when +2 is finished. You will be just slightly lighter on stalkers and thus more susceptible to heavy corruptor play, which is why I favor 3 colossus.
Resources
Vods:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66959
GSL Finals Game 1 on Daybreak
Genius does a very similar opening, but gets twilight and stalkers before his robotics support so robo tech is delayed. He still ends up moving out with 3 colossus and +3. He doesn't begin colossus production until he has finished an immortal in this case. The push is a bit later but still very strong as DRG's BL tech hasn't kicked in
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/#/de/vod/view/23709/high
here's feast using such a style vs idra's ling muta at IEM march. He gets out 2 immortals from his robotics pretty quickly, something I'm starting to like!
i'd like to reiterate that i really do not see adding additional phoenixes and working on air upgrades as being worthwhile as a response to muta play. in total he added 6 phoenixes after scouting muta tech as well as the +1 air.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66892/?set=5&lang=
GSTL from 2/17/2012
Game 5 Finale vs Leenock. He gets the twilight slightly quicker, but it doesn't seem to change that much. He starts the 3rd right before 9 mins which is safe on a map like that where you have your own path between your nat and your 3rd and the expansions are not terribly open
Replays:
http://drop.sc/128350
Vs. Roach + fast hive tech
Opponent reacts to the fast 3rd by going for a burrow roach push at the third, but it is a little late and he does not really commit to it. He then double expands and techs straight to BLs, not anticipating how quickly this push hits. I should have cleared out his overlord spotting the 3rd.
http://drop.sc/125637
Vs. Roach Infestor
Opponent sees my 3rd timing very early, as I failed to clear my 3rd before starting it. He responds by double expanding and getting out a bunch of infestors to stall any push before his economy can kick in. The push comes before this would have happened.
http://drop.sc/125727
Vs. Roach Hydra
I mistook 3 base zerg for a 2 base zerg and added gates before putting down my third because I always assume the zerg will expand away from me. He goes for a roach/hydra push and is able to abuse the open space between the pocket 3rd and the natural. If you use this style on this map, taking the close-ground natural might work, but you might get caught between your natural and your 3rd against aggression builds, be they drops or heavy burrow roach busts. I'm not sure how I feel about this map, yet.
http://drop.sc/128351
Vs. Muta
I should have been scouting for his tech more attentively. As it was, I only see the mutas as they're headed to my base. Ideally, I would have spotted this and built more cannons and teched towards storm sooner. I also respond by adding additional phoenixes and +1 air weapons, though I don't think this was a wise investment.
http://drop.sc/128360
Vs. Roach Infestor
Opponent opens with a small roach pressure before getting his 3rd. I've found that chrono'ing out a stalker and pulling all probes from the natural is a better response rather than adding a billion cannons, if at all possible. From here I opt to cut the early blink for a 2nd robotics in response to his late spire tech.
http://drop.sc/125646
Vs. Roach Inefstor
Opponent is able to do a lot of damage due to my poor spotting with SG units. You need to watch all possible paths of attack in order to pull this off cleanly. I had known he didn't have BLs yet, and had much better scouting earlier I could have ended this much sooner
http://drop.sc/125639
Vs. Roach Corruptor
This is from last patch and I apologize for that. A bit of a variation here. No SG opener and a faster blink for safety, but still hits with 4 colo and 2/1 at a pretty good time
http://drop.sc/128424
Vs. Roach burrow into hive
Bad scouting allows my opponent to do a lot of damage. The push is delayed so much that it is not worth doing. He switches into ultras, though I think a BL tech would have killed me. Hour-long game if anyone is interested :D
Faster Blink / Immortal Heavy
http://drop.sc/140435
http://drop.sc/140823
http://drop.sc/140825
http://drop.sc/140824
Thanks for the read!
-aLeJ
|
Thank you for writing this very detailed guide. I appreciate your contributions a lot. Might I ask how you handle fast 3 base no saturation pure roach spam or roach ling allin? I've been dying a lot vs mass roach armies that are created in 1 go so hard to scout.
edit: I can't watch your reps now and I read that you specifically do this vs roaches but I get wasted by very large numbers of roaches and I can't ff them out on a lot of the newer maps like entombed, cloud, and some other maps as well
|
On March 08 2012 18:27 Xaldarian wrote:
Thank you for writing this very detailed guide. I appreciate your contributions a lot. Might I ask how you handle fast 3 base no saturation pure roach spam or roach ling allin? I've been dying a lot vs mass roach armies that are created in 1 go so hard to scout.
without a replay all i can venture to say is that you need a good map, good scouting and good force fields. when is this hitting?
|
Pretty awesome guide! Just one thing, you have the same link for the Muta replay as well as the Roach replay.
|
I've been toying with this style for awhile, and I've come to the conclusion that after stargate play, with your gates and robo, take third, but don't get the colossus tech, start to saturate your third, get a faster blink, get 3+ immortals out, then take a 2nd robo as you're saturated and are looking to take your 4th. I'd say they only time it's worth getting the colossus earlier is vs infestor ling play, or sometimes muta ling play if you can do enough damage and use the phoenixes to defend. Any roach based play I just don't like the colossus.
|
Around the time I could get my first few stargate units. so a standard fast 3 base but he then only produces roaches to bust my buildings. not enough ffs can't produce enough gateway units or cannons to defend properly. I scout his third my scout probe or zealot dies then I see him coming because of the xel naga and add sentries cannons everything but I simply am overwhelmed. this is on korhal btw.
|
On March 08 2012 18:34 Corrosive wrote:
Pretty awesome guide! Just one thing, you have the same link for the Muta replay as well as the Roach replay.
fixed! thanks!
On March 08 2012 18:35 Lobber wrote:
I've been toying with this style for awhile, and I've come to the conclusion that after stargate play, with your gates and robo, take third, but don't get the colossus tech, start to saturate your third, get a faster blink, get 3+ immortals out, then take a 2nd robo as you're saturated and are looking to take your 4th. I'd say they only time it's worth getting the colossus earlier is vs infestor ling play, or sometimes muta ling play if you can do enough damage and use the phoenixes to defend. Any roach based play I just don't like the colossus.
While I agree that colossus aren't great against pure roach, I like colossus for this timing and for general versatility. Roach openers will almost inevitably transition into infestor play, especially if lots of immortals are abound. I like colossus vs. roach/infestor way more than immortals. Even if I was looking to take a 4th with this opening, I'm not sure if I'd opt to mix in several immortals. Once that initial roach max, or even just a few injects worth of roaches are cleared up, immortals don't really do well against what is going to come afterwards.. unless it's more roaches.. and ZvP when protoss is on 4 bases favors more supply efficient units
|
On March 08 2012 18:37 Xaldarian wrote:
Around the time I could get my first few stargate units. so a standard fast 3 base but he then only produces roaches to bust my buildings. not enough ffs can't produce enough gateway units or cannons to defend properly. I scout his third my scout probe or zealot dies then I see him coming because of the xel naga and add sentries cannons everything but I simply am overwhelmed. this is on korhal btw.
ah. don't do this on korhal. too much open space to guard between 3rd and natural
|
All these perfect guides for protoss causing the ladder to rage.
|
Alejandrisha I love you... Your guides give me hope.
|
No I meant me on 2 bases vs 3 base pure roach. how can I defend my natural at all? its to wide for ffs ad mass roach seems to do guaranteed damage. I've faced players who sacrifice roaches to snipe my gate core forge or even my nexus.
colossi are awesome vs roaches but it's the time before I get them out. I normally play a twilight robo templar style, in that order, or stargate twilight so I have enough versatility to handle the things zerg throws at me.
|
On March 08 2012 20:30 Xaldarian wrote:
No I meant me on 2 bases vs 3 base pure roach. how can I defend my natural at all? its to wide for ffs ad mass roach seems to do guaranteed damage. I've faced players who sacrifice roaches to snipe my gate core forge or even my nexus.
colossi are awesome vs roaches but it's the time before I get them out. I normally play a twilight robo templar style, in that order, or stargate twilight so I have enough versatility to handle the things zerg throws at me.
if you're on 2 bases having trouble against 3 base roach pushes, i suggest using builds that use 4-5 gates and a robo as their immediate mid-game core off of FFE for an immortal or two before following up with subsequent tech upon scouting a roach opener (you can survive with 1 gate robo off of an ffe with sentries, unless they're doing an extreeeemely cheesy ~20 drone 2 base roach push. again, this is very map-dependent). While you won't be able to ff efficiently on korhal, you should be able to trade cost effectively with 6-sentries, an immortal or two and whatever stalkers you can afford while teching.
I find stargate twlight openers a bit gimmicky in that you don't have aoe until storm is out, and even then your aoe is not as reliable as colossus aoe--unless you're against muta, of course.
I'd favor robo-twilight over twilight-robo openers for the sake of earlier scouting and mobile detection. burrow and burrow movement are trendy right now, and you don't want to engage roaches only to have your opponent's losses somewhat ameliorated by a single research. heavy 2 base plays are another story, however. if you're going for a 2 base blink timing, then you can delay the robo so that you get the observer when you need it for the sake of detection for pushing rather than for gathering information off of which you make detections
|
You should be able to see the 3rd hatch start. It will typically go down a little bit before the 5 minute mark.
If you scout pool-hatch, you're most likely facing 3 hatch before gas, but it is still wise to confirm the 3rd hatch with your probe scout. Leave with your probe before lings are out and hide it on the map and then scout for the 3rd.
Certain zerg openers allow for a 3rd hatch at 6:00. They won't place it down before that time.
11/18 -> 6:00 3rd hatch
12/19 and 15(16) hatch allow for earlier thirds.
|
On March 08 2012 22:02 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +You should be able to see the 3rd hatch start. It will typically go down a little bit before the 5 minute mark.
If you scout pool-hatch, you're most likely facing 3 hatch before gas, but it is still wise to confirm the 3rd hatch with your probe scout. Leave with your probe before lings are out and hide it on the map and then scout for the 3rd. Certain zerg openers allow for a 3rd hatch at 6:00. They won't place it down before that time. 11/18 -> 6:00 3rd hatch 12/19 and 15(16) hatch allow for earlier thirds.
i'm always checking for the 3rd at around 5 mins, either on my own accord or after a ling has found my hidden probe. whether or not i find it, i will get those 2 zealots to do a second round of scouting. can be really useful at time to spot for # of lings on map, gas after lings clear probe-->ling speed tricks, possible roaches, slightly later 3rd timing and that sort of thing. it even once won me a game vs proxy hatch + spines out in front of the ffe that i didn't scout until my zealots happened upon it and canceled spines before enough lings arrived :D
i speak here generally of 14/16, the one i see pretty much every pvz :D
|
yay, seems like another great guide, thanks man 
|
well written guide, but i have some fears about this on a very high level:
1) i dont think you will be able to expand to your 3rd even with that many sentrys vs a well controlled mass roach 3 base attack - you would def need immortals for that on every map besides entombed valley.
2) ofc you have a stargate and phoenixes - but that doesnt mean the zergplayer wont massmuta anyways. 1 stargate wont help you, your colossus-tech would be more or less useless and youd still have a very hard time to secure an "early" 3rd.
3) stargate-openings: Zerg sees the stargate-units, how will he react: build queens, some spores and drone like crazy. stargate units most of the time mean for the zergplayer, that he will be able to drone up to 80 without problems, he doesnt have to fear a very early 2 base allin - some roaches deal with +1 zealots. therefore, you will be in an economical disadvantage anyways.
4) Your base builds around Zergplayers delaying their Hive.
Many players nowadays abuse that fact and simply tech straight to broodlords, relying on ling/hydra/corrupter to defend their 3 base, taking a "late" 4th:
Bly, Tefel and other Zergs have a maxed! army consisting of 8 broodlords, some corrupters, mass ling/hydra around the 14(!) to 15 minute mark. While its extremly hard to stop that push anyway as protoss, your build is very weak to earlier broodlords i feel.
And believe me - corrupter zergling hydra is stronger against your initial push then u would ever think.... especially on creep :/
5) moving out so "early" in PvZ is risky imo - ling /roach counter attacks everywhere make it extremly hard to ever move out before the 14-15 minute mark imo. Some zergplayers simply w8 for you to move out to run in their several groups of units hidden somewhere on the map. hard to deal with when u rely on pushing out!
I still like your build though - there isnt a build that is safe against anything the zerg can do. We still rely on scouting info, good reactions and a little bit of luck with any build out there - thats how PvZ outside of 2 base allins works nowadays.
|
Even though I don't play protoss, I have to say that this guide was excellent. Really well structured and interesting text! Good work!
|
Been playing like this for a while, pretty cool to see something come up and document it. The pack of phoenix works so splendidly throughout the game; picking up Infestors, a little group pre-ready against large Muta numbers, scouting ahead and around.
|
On March 08 2012 23:02 KalWarkov wrote:
well written guide, but i have some fears about this on a very high level:
1) i dont think you will be able to expand to your 3rd even with that many sentrys vs a well controlled mass roach 3 base attack - you would def need immortals for that on every map besides entombed valley.
2) ofc you have a stargate and phoenixes - but that doesnt mean the zergplayer wont massmuta anyways. 1 stargate wont help you, your colossus-tech would be more or less useless and youd still have a very hard time to secure an "early" 3rd.
3) stargate-openings: Zerg sees the stargate-units, how will he react: build queens, some spores and drone like crazy. stargate units most of the time mean for the zergplayer, that he will be able to drone up to 80 without problems, he doesnt have to fear a very early 2 base allin - some roaches deal with +1 zealots. therefore, you will be in an economical disadvantage anyways.
4) Your base builds around Zergplayers delaying their Hive.
Many players nowadays abuse that fact and simply tech straight to broodlords, relying on ling/hydra/corrupter to defend their 3 base, taking a "late" 4th:
Bly, Tefel and other Zergs have a maxed! army consisting of 8 broodlords, some corrupters, mass ling/hydra around the 14(!) to 15 minute mark. While its extremly hard to stop that push anyway as protoss, your build is very weak to earlier broodlords i feel.
And believe me - corrupter zergling hydra is stronger against your initial push then u would ever think.... especially on creep :/
5) moving out so "early" in PvZ is risky imo - ling /roach counter attacks everywhere make it extremly hard to ever move out before the 14-15 minute mark imo. Some zergplayers simply w8 for you to move out to run in their several groups of units hidden somewhere on the map. hard to deal with when u rely on pushing out!
I still like your build though - there isnt a build that is safe against anything the zerg can do. We still rely on scouting info, good reactions and a little bit of luck with any build out there - thats how PvZ outside of 2 base allins works nowadays.
I've played a strategy very similar to the build in the OP quite a lot, and I'd echo these concerns.
The #1 thing people should understand when going for this strategy is that it's designed to hit a potentially narrow window after your army is strong enough to beat a maxed roach army (so after about 160-170 food), but before Z has broodlords. If you go for the 3 colossus timing, you will lose if you don't kill him because you won't have the infrastructure to deal with hive tech. The other option is skipping the timing attack and going straight into 4 base mothership+carrier+archon, but I think there are better builds to transition into this lategame.
Secondly, the build lets Z drone straight to 75 workers. This can come back to bite you in a number of ways. Z can go into mass roach aggro mode to deny your third, and with a 75 worker economic base, he'll probably succeed. Alternatively, Z can take a quick 4th and go into super muta mode which is a strong style of play made stronger by the lack of 2 base pressure. Z's third option is to take the econ lead and go straight into infestor+broodlord. As KalWarkov mentioned, Z can get a maxed infestor+broodlord army by about 15 minutes if you skip your 2 base timing. The build in the OP seems weak to fast hive tech since it won't have the right infrastructure in time.
Lastly, it's tough to attack and win when you're at 160 food and Z is at 200 food and massing reinforcements. Your army is stronger than a maxed roach/corruptor army, but since you don't have the tech to deal with infestor+BL, you need to do big damage with the 15 min timing. Z will often narrowly hold and then win with a BL counter-attack a couple minutes later.
Your build is sort of the brother build to the strategy I wrote up here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300535. The differences are that your build skips the zealot+void pressure and instead harasses with phoenix, and you go for colossus instead of templar. I've played both styles a lot (as well as an immortal-focused strategy that delays AoE tech for a really beefy army that has a timing attack at about 13 min). Generally speaking, the colossus route allows for a great pre-BL timing attack, but the templar route is better for transitioning into post-hive play.
|
I've been studing this build since a month and i have to say, in the current meta is one of the best non-2base options. Btw i hate you for spoiling the build, lol.
(NOTE: All the top P's are just going 2 base play aganist z, ALL, except for Genius and Hero; why? cose you kinda need to outplay your z rival to beat his macro capabilities).
Some of my notes for it:
- For the "high level fear": Genius used it in the GSL aganist Nestea and Drg, both wins, period.
- Add the Genius vs Nestea game. GSL Ro16 Game 3. Perfect example of handling a denied 3rd Nexus.
- For safety purposes (specially in the current "drg" meta) i preffer doing the Genius way and chrono an immorthal out (add another in case of confirmed drg roach style), or the 3rd may fall easier.
- You MUST get info in your phoenix harass. Check the z tech route and react properly.
- In every game that Genius use this build, he makes a phoenix raid taking 8-14 drones, besides ovi and queen kills. Imo this is a must, to make the phoenixes worth it. Also, with decent micro, you MUST be able to do it.
- Chrono extra immorthals in case of roach drg style, chrono extra phoenix in case of muta play. Well microed 6 phoenixes should deal with minor muta numbers, same for more phoenixes with bigger cloud + some stalker as base defense. Also, Genius chrono out +1 air weapons for muta play.
- I'm just a high masters scrub and not faced fast hive aganist this build yet (z's no not know how to react yet lol), but i guess that if the z goes for fast BL, he cannot punish your 3rd as a hard roach based play, so your push can have more units (those who do not fell defending the 3rd). In this case also (scouted with phoenixes, a must), i do not wait for 3rd collosi, 2 should be enough, as long u have blink ( and of curse blink should be out for that time).
- This build is really fun, and amazing to train multi tasking. To the success of the build, you're forced to micro with less units (for a window) and you must deal damage with phoenixes while macroing efficiently.
- As this build gets popular, z's will learn how to defend it. Then the Void - 6 gates timming (faking this build), will be really effective.
Imo the hardest is to defend a well excecuted drg roach style, cose he can 1a trading units , and still transition into tech, while you must really micromanage your expensive units both fronts.
|
Belha, what exactly is the drg roach style? I'm imagining 3-base speed roach timing at ~12 min off of ~65 drones.
|
I like that 8gate 3colossus push, though I'm usually not able to get it that early. Great build and great guide! I'll be using this in PvZ for sure.
|
On March 09 2012 05:07 kcdc wrote:
Belha, what exactly is the drg roach style? I'm imagining 3-base speed roach timing at ~12 min off of ~65 drones.
Exactly.
Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas.
Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it. I fact is more like +65 lol.
|
This is a really good style that I personally have been using and it's nice to see it fleshed out by someone better than me. I have a lot of love for the +3 timing that you list in the greedy section. There's a good replay of Socke doing something similar in a recent EPS game. I'll dig it up when I'm not on my phone.
|
On March 09 2012 05:16 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:07 kcdc wrote:
Belha, what exactly is the drg roach style? I'm imagining 3-base speed roach timing at ~12 min off of ~65 drones. Exactly. Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas. Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it.
Yeah, that attack is why I favor doing a strong zealot+void timing at 8:20 rather than vanilla void+phoenix harass. A well-executed zealot+void pressure makes the speed roach timing much smaller.
|
I feel like, even though this type of play has been done for a long time, this guide really takes a solid build order and really streamlines it. Super helpful! After reading the first couple of lines, i wasn't going to read the rest, until it read it was from Alej LOL. and then i was like wow!
|
On March 09 2012 05:25 kcdc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2012 05:16 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:07 kcdc wrote:
Belha, what exactly is the drg roach style? I'm imagining 3-base speed roach timing at ~12 min off of ~65 drones. Exactly. Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas. Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it. Yeah, that attack is why I favor doing a strong zealot+void timing at 8:20 rather than vanilla void+phoenix harass. A well-executed zealot+void pressure makes the speed roach timing much smaller.
I used to do that too (rsvp fan as well ^^), but z's in general learned to deal with the void-zealot presure, to the point that sometimes i was getting in a bad position after a good defense in certain maps even hitting at 8:00!
I was searching for a more solid, eco build, and imo the Genius one is better (fell in love with it after watching several times the series vs Nestea). I found it safer (little faster void, double sentry) and more eco oriented (big difference with void +1 pressure), more resilent to a roach/queen push too. Just a matter of preference i guess, and kinda dependant of the meta.
edit: Also i apreciate sooo much how the build pushes multi tasking capabilities.
|
Alej!
I was going to sit down at try to copy Genius' opener, but you've done it for me :D
Thanks!
|
here's feast using such a style vs idra's ling muta. He gets out 2 immortals from his robotics pretty quickly, something I'm starting to like!
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/#/de/vod/view/23709/high
i'd like to reiterate that i really do not see adding additional phoenixes and working on air upgrades as being worthwhile as a response to muta play. in total he added 6 phoenixes after scouting muta tech as well as the +1 air.
that's 1000/700!
And I don't think anyone would argue that 11 +1 phoenixes are going to have a significant impact as opposed to 5 + 0 phoenixes compared to that enormous opportunity cost.
colo range, colo production, and forge upgrades are postponed to the tune of 2.5 game minutes to CB these bad boys out!
And of course storm tech is forgone altogether.
|
Cool guide. Funny sidenote - this is EXACTLY the FFE-BO that...wait for it...Tester used pretty much right after release. 
|
On March 09 2012 08:02 sleepingdog wrote:Cool guide. Funny sidenote - this is EXACTLY the FFE-BO that...wait for it...Tester used pretty much right after release.
well hell yeah tester is my boy. i don't recall him making a 3rd nexus too often though
|
United States8476 Posts
Cool, this is somewhat similar to what I do. Do you mind posting some benchmarks, such as 3rd timing and first colossi timing? I use a modified Brown build and it gets a 3rd at 9:50 and first colossi at 12:20. Just want some comparisons. Also, what are your gateway timings; how many gateways do you have before you take a 3rd? It might already be in your guide, but I just skimmed it and I'm sorry if I missed it.
|
On March 09 2012 09:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Cool, this is somewhat similar to what I do. Do you mind posting some benchmarks, such as 3rd timing and first colossi timing? I use a modified Brown build and it gets a 3rd at 9:50 and first colossi at 12:20. Just want some comparisons. Also, what are your gateway timings; how many gateways do you have before you take a 3rd? It might already be in your guide, but I just skimmed it and I'm sorry if I missed it.
heyo
nexus wants to get up between 12-12:30
4 gates before 3rd unless something other than 3 base roach/3 base roach or ling infestor/2 base muta (i guess 3 base muta as well but that isn't so common without opening with some roaches)
4 gates after 3rd is started, and gates 9 and 10 added as money allows, usually as 3rd is finishing
|
United States8476 Posts
Based on your description, your opening(First 13 minutes) seems like MC's standard build about 1 year ago. I used to use that build quite a lot, but I found it to be too predictable, as pretty much everyone was using it. The final straw for me was in an MLG Raleigh game between Naniwa and Coca on shakruas plateau. On this map with a short rush distance to the 3rd, Coca scouted and recognized the build right away, reacting in as close to perfect a way as I'd ever seen at the time. He made 8 hydras and droned fully to 3 bases while taking a 4th but not saturating it. His spore placements were also perfect. Then, he maxed with 8 hydra and the rest all roach and corruptor. By the time he attacked, the supplies were around 200 to 130ish and I couldn't see a way for Naniwa to hold on that map.
|
On March 09 2012 09:51 NrGmonk wrote:
Based on your description, your opening(First 13 minutes) seems like MC's standard build about 1 year ago. I used to use that build quite a lot, but I found it to be too predictable, as pretty much everyone was using it. The final straw for me was in an MLG Raleigh game between Naniwa and Coca on shakruas plateau. On this map with a short rush distance to the 3rd, Coca scouted and recognized the build right away, reacting in as close to perfect a way as I'd ever seen at the time. He made 8 hydras and droned fully to 3 bases while taking a 4th but not saturating it. His spore placements were also perfect. Then, he maxed with 8 hydra and the rest all roach and corruptor. By the time he attacked, the supplies were around 200 to 130ish and I couldn't see a way for Naniwa to hold on that map.
yeah i don't like shak at all for this style. probably the worst of the maps i originally deemed "ok." but really, the areas between both the nat and the pocket 3rd and the nat and the close nat are just too damn wide for this to hold any strong aggression reliably.
|
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo?
|
On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote:
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo?
I actually prefer a really fast third off of one StarGate. The SG provides you with scouting info in order to know what sort of unit composition to make. I've won a lot of PvZ games scouting Hydra/Roach and going double Robo colo with a third under ten minutes. I'm pretty curious as to why Alej's third isn't faster as well.
|
On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote:
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo?
i personally hate going double robo in just about every circumstance. one wave of over-made corruptors and then suddenly any reinforcements clean up whatever is left. what i like about the sg opener is the scouting/denial of scouting that you simply don't get from any other opener. if you take a 3rd, it's much stronger if you can clean up the towers/overlords/loose roaming units with phoenixes rather than dragging your ground units to do it--as this is far more telling of the desire to take a fast 3rd--even if you start your 3rd a little bit later.
it's true you will be oversaturated on 2 bases for a little bit before your 3rd finishes, but i find this much better than flaunting that 3rd and immediately quelling his fear of a strong 2 base play. this is obviously diminished if you cannot deny the scouting of your 3rd for any amount of time
|
Wait, am I missing something?
I thought this was the most standardy standard ultrameganormal of PvZ: Expand using a forge, then tech while expanding to your third and do a pre-hive timing attack with an ungodly amount of stalkers with a few colossi / sentries sprinkled in.
I watched the roach/hydra game, and it looked like he could have simply mashed out roach/ling reactively to deny the third instead of trying to get his desired drone count + hydralisks. A few sentries, a few stalkers, and cannons morphing in couldn't possibly hold, could it?
|
Hmm, I feel like it's way more efficient to get your third up and blink + robo before colossus (see genius's builds in the GSL). If you scout a hydra den you just rush to colossus and with good micro + phoenix lifts you should be able to hold any roach hydra timings. This build gets it's third at about 10:30, as seen in genius's first game in the finals, or in the ro32 bel'shir vs DRG.
Alej!
I was going to sit down at try to copy Genius' opener, but you've done it for me :D
Thanks!
this is not genius's build at all, he get's his third up very fast.
|
Great guide, I have actually been doing this (not this build but the strategy) for awhile now, no credit to Genius? 
|
How do you decide if you want to pressure with two chrono'd zealots, or just get 1 zealot then some sentries, or any other combo of gateway units+tactics off of your first gate?
|
On March 09 2012 10:55 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you decide if you want to pressure with two chrono'd zealots, or just get 1 zealot then some sentries, or any other combo of gateway units+tactics off of your first gate?
I usually just go 2 zealots blindly for safety and to guarantee clearing of towers unless speed and a silly amount of lings are out--in which case i have that bit of information to use. against a speed opener I'll typically move out with the two zealots to the tower but keep a probe in the 1 hole slot just in case. Either that or vs. speed opener i'll just get 1 zeal to hold the choke and switch to sentries
|
only half way through reading your guide but i've been looking for a solution to my PvZ.
Thanks so much for this!
|
On March 09 2012 10:51 Balgrog wrote:Great guide, I have actually been doing this (not this build but the strategy) for awhile now, no credit to Genius?
well i put the vod in the OP, but i have seen another protoss open this way in gsl before him so to give this build a true "inventor" wouldn't really be fair unless i could actually find who it was. and it's not like there are databases full of kr replays lying around everywhere :D
|
Firstly, this is amazing as usual, I can't believe how gosu you are at bringin' the builds.
Secondly, do you do any coaching ?
|
i sometimes do a simliar build / style; but i pump out voids pretty much constantly to deal with corruptors or overlord drops
whats your opinion on keepin the SG pumpin voids. vs mass'ing gateway stalkers instead.
|
|
|
Have you tried going faster tc and +3? I always feel like 3/0 is a lot scarier than 2/1. ofcourse this would slow your robo down slightly, but I think it might be worth it.
|
On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote:
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo?
I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful.
|
On March 10 2012 03:26 Arcanefrost wrote:
Have you tried going faster tc and +3? I always feel like 3/0 is a lot scarier than 2/1. ofcourse this would slow your robo down slightly, but I think it might be worth it.
yep there's a mention of that in the OP but I like the faster robo. i find a faster 1st col makes me feel a bit safe than a faster blink. and if all goes well, i don't want to warp in stalkers before i need to in the case no fast 3 base pressure is coming
|
On March 10 2012 05:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote:
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo? I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful.
yeah a lot of this style is about denying scouting of the 3rd, but of course a good zerg will be trying to find out if you are taking a 3rd by sending additional speed lings if the original ols/lings get cleared out. the longer you can deny scouting the smaller the window for his attack / his period to power drones in response depending on what he wants to do
|
how would you compare this strategy to a 4gate+void ray pressure like described here: http://scdojo.tumblr.com/
which transitions into a similar midgame and the following timing attack?
|
Good guide sir, i enjoyed it.
|
On March 10 2012 05:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote:
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo? I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful.
This. My PvZ has gone to hell in the last week or 2 as Zerg players figured out the Stephano style. It's not like the Stephano style is some huge breakthough where players had never thought to mass speed roaches before, but they're doing it much better now. Up until recently, Zerg players knew roaches were good, but they just didn't know the right timings for their gas, roach warren, evolution chamber and lair.
The timings on the lair and roach warren used to fluctuate quite a bit. Some players would get greedy with drones and start their lair before roach warren to be able to research speed when the warren finished--I used to see roach warrens starting at 9 minutes. This was punished really hard by any sort of +1 zealot pressure. Then players started getting the roach warren earlier, but they delayed the lair and missile upgrades. This kept the Zerg safe, but with delayed roach speed and missile upgrades, it left Protoss with enough time to set up a defense at their third.
Then the Zerg players watched Stephano's build with a 7 minute roach warren and a timely lair, and they saw that you can have a few slow roaches to defend the +1 zealot 8 minute timing and also have 200/200 of speed roaches by 12 minutes. They saw how Stephano was able to achieve (1) complete safety against 2-base timings, and (2) an ability to kill the Protoss third just about every time.
I don't know how to beat the Stephano style, but I don't think SG into colossus with a 13 minute third is the solution. Too much tech, not enough meat on the army, too late on 3-base production if Z ever manages to trade units.
|
On March 14 2012 04:49 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 05:42 sleepingdog wrote:On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote:
This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo? I watched Stephano's stream quite a lot the last few days and I seriously doubt that you'll be ever able to take let alone hold your third against his playstyle - and don't get me wrong, it's not that we scrubs will ever be on his level, but more like that everyone and their grandmother are copying him right now, so I wouldn't recommend a super fast third right now...but dunno, my PvZ has been quite shabby since 3 gate expo stopped being useful. This. My PvZ has gone to hell in the last week or 2 as Zerg players figured out the Stephano style. It's not like the Stephano style is some huge breakthough where players had never though to mass speed roaches before, but they're doing it much better now. Up until recently, Zerg players knew roaches were good, but they just didn't know the right timings for their gas, roach warren, evolution chamber and lair. The timings on the lair and roach warren used to fluctuate quite a bit. Some players would get greedy with drones and start their lair before roach warren to be able to research speed when the warren finished--I used to see roach warrens starting at 9 minutes. This was punished really hard by any sort of +1 zealot pressure. Then players started getting the roach warren earlier, but they delayed the lair and missile upgrades. This kept the Zerg safe, but with delayed roach speed and missile upgrades, it left Protoss with enough time to set up a defense at their third. Then the Zerg players watched Stephano's build with a 7 minute roach warren and a timely lair, and they saw that you can have a few slow roaches to defend the +1 zealot 8 minute timing and also have 200/200 of speed roaches by 12 minutes. They saw how Stephano was able to achieve (1) complete safety against 2-base timings, and (2) an ability to kill the Protoss third just about every time. I don't know how to beat the Stephano style, but I don't think SG into colossus with a 13 minute third is the solution. Too much tech, not enough meat on the army, too late on 3-base production if Z ever manages to trade units.
Yeah I could not agree more. It's something I realized a while ago because even though perhaps zergs you might run into on the ladder were slower to pick optimal timings/proper responses, practice partners quickly learn your playstyle/timings and the game devolves into a guessing game/mind game, which is why IMO PvZ looks the way it does in tourneys where you can study opponent's playstyle ahead of time and play them multiple games in a row. How the game plays out in a FFE vs 3 hatch scenario is just too mapped out at this point. I just see no possible way to secure a fast 3rd in PvZ without severely outplaying your opponent through a combination of mind games, scout denial (which is impossible on some maps). or incredibly favorable engagements. This is why you always see protoss make a ton a sentries whenever they attempt to get a fast 3rd because FF is essentially required to have any chance of winning engagements vs larger armies cost-efficiently. Add that to the fact that Protoss is the absolutely the worse race at establishing hidden expansions and the prospects of a macro-oriented FFE playstyle looks grim indeed.
That said, I've found 2-base robo openings quite strong due to the variations of 2-base timings possible. The initial warp prism gives you early scouting/map presence and allows you to apply some early pressure and can be varied with sentry drops, zealot drops, FF in the main, etc. so even if the zerg knows it's coming you can vary your points of attack, execution, unit comp, etc. to keep it viable. Then you can follow-up w/ a 3 Immortal timing which is ridic strong, or if zerg starts to catch on and makes fast hydras you can also switch it up on the fly and do a later 2 colossus timing. As long as you can kill the 3rd the game essentially resets econ-wise and you then have the option of grabbing your 3rd or going for the kill.
I've also been experimenting with this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275) 1-gate FE build a bit recently and IMO it shows a lot of promise, but whether that is because zerg players don't know how to react to it properly yet or not remains to be seen.
|
|
|
this build seems to be very solid. ive been looking for a flexible build that looks to stay even with zerg while being able to apply some pressure instead of the old 2 base all-in. nice post, im definitely gonna try it (~1000 pt master)
|
I'm going to have to try this build. Thanks
|
tried this vs hyun in playhem but he smashed me so hard with ling hydra with some roaches. i don't think it was the build, just that i've been playing vs zergs that weren't bw progamers :D
will keep practicing!
|
Your guides are always so damn good.
|
Canada13389 Posts
Ok Alej, I have two questions.
This has been doing quite well for me but there are 2 situations I need some help in
1-- On Antiga, when I FFE they take the gold, how should I respond? If I see it early vs. late
2 -- If they go for mutas anyway and I shut them down very hard, is there a particular way i should proceed or just proceed as normal? With someone on my CSL team he went mass roach after I shut down the mutas and he busted my third on Shakuras Plateau.
|
On March 22 2012 05:23 ZeromuS wrote:
Ok Alej, I have two questions.
This has been doing quite well for me but there are 2 situations I need some help in
1-- On Antiga, when I FFE they take the gold, how should I respond? If I see it early vs. late
2 -- If they go for mutas anyway and I shut them down very hard, is there a particular way i should proceed or just proceed as normal? With someone on my CSL team he went mass roach after I shut down the mutas and he busted my third on Shakuras Plateau.
1- need to know if he takes his nat behind it or not. if he doesn't, big ass roach or bling bust coming your way. if he does, i find a colo or immortal + 7gate timing does the trick... IDK if you can safely take your 3rd after that, as any 3 base bust will be that much stronger after he takes the gold.
2- in the past when i've shut down the mutas without taking much damage, 2 colossus + mass bstalker and the sentries you had anyway will do the trick. I usually get storm tech just in case, and cut colo earlier and switch into immortals for the transition--if he transitions into anything else (besides muta ling bling, in which case either hit with your colo before it gets out of hand or wait til you have some storm up), he's playing it pretty damn risky
|
On March 14 2012 04:49 kcdc wrote:(...)
I don't know how to beat the Stephano style, but I don't think SG into colossus with a 13 minute third is the solution. Too much tech, not enough meat on the army, too late on 3-base production if Z ever manages to trade units. This is exactly what I was going to say. I've been doing the "Stephano/DRG-style" 12 min 200/200 roach push well before people started calling it Stephano/DRG-style, and I rarely see protosses holding that even on 2 bases. So even at pro level (which I'm far from), I don't see how they could ever defend a 3rd. The army described in the OP at 12:30 (1 Void ray, 4-5 Phoenixes, 7-8 Sentries, m Some safety Stalkers, if needed, Some zealots, +1/+1 ground upgrades, 1 Colossus) will certainly not hold it.
Well, perhaps on Entombed Valley because that's a very easy to defend third, but on Antiga? Shakuras? Tal'Darim even? I don't think so.
|
On March 21 2012 08:15 Alejandrisha wrote:
tried this vs hyun in playhem but he smashed me so hard with ling hydra with some roaches. i don't think it was the build, just that i've been playing vs zergs that weren't bw progamers :D
will keep practicing!
Alej, I've been practicing this build against my friend who plays a lot on the Korean server. He says that Protosses on KR do a similar build but instead of making phoenix behind 1 void, they chrono out 3 void rays and do a +1 zealot/voidray timing(off of 4 gates) against the zerg's third before taking a 3rd nexus and transitioning to colossus(the expo timing is slightly later but still before 10 minutes). It feels a lot safer and more powerful against a fast 3 hatch opener.
We feel phoenixes don't apply enough pressure against a strong zerg who can defend against phoenix (making enough spores, keeping ovies alive) and they can still drone freely and do whatever the hell they want. Additionally, 3 void rays have a lot more staying power against the Stephano/DRG 12 minute roach max timing attack. Ideally you keep them alive after your timing and fly around the edge of their main/creep and contain them until they get some sort of lair tech to deal with them.
What do you think about incorporating the zealot/voidray timing into the build instead of a phoenix followup? I wish I had some replays of our practice games but I didn't save any. T.T
edit-Derp. I should have read the previous comments more carefully. this has already been brought up but not addressed. T.T
On March 09 2012 17:50 CuHz wrote:
i sometimes do a simliar build / style; but i pump out voids pretty much constantly to deal with corruptors or overlord drops
whats your opinion on keepin the SG pumpin voids. vs mass'ing gateway stalkers instead.
On March 09 2012 05:25 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:16 Belha wrote:On March 09 2012 05:07 kcdc wrote:
Belha, what exactly is the drg roach style? I'm imagining 3-base speed roach timing at ~12 min off of ~65 drones. Exactly. Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas. Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it. Yeah, that attack is why I favor doing a strong zealot+void timing at 8:20 rather than vanilla void+phoenix harass. A well-executed zealot+void pressure makes the speed roach timing much smaller.
|
Thanks alej, I love your builds and will definitely try this out when I get home next week ^_^
|
What time do brood lords normally get out by- (i know there will be variance...)
Most zergs will not attempt BL production unless they have 4 bases, correct? Shouldn't a Zerg be on 4 bases if we are on three? (yes I watched replays)
|
|
|
On March 23 2012 00:08 Borkbokbork wrote:
What time do brood lords normally get out by- (i know there will be variance...)
Most zergs will not attempt BL production unless they have 4 bases, correct? Shouldn't a Zerg be on 4 bases if we are on three? (yes I watched replays)
I really can vary too much, if a zerg rushes straight to them of only a few roaches i think 15 minutes isnt unreasonable but if they do heavy roach agro it can be pushed to 18 and if they go heavy muta ling counterattacking it can be as late as 20-22.
You really just need to be checking for infestation pit/hive timings and formulate the timing from there.
|
Want to smash some Zerg face before he gets up in yours with that hellish Brood Lord Infestor ball and plants 40 spine crawlers at every expansion?
You caught my eye with this line. YES YES YES! Tired of confronting that and forced to engage time and time again Maxed vs Maxed with perfect micro against fungals and brood lords. Tired of speed roaches denying my 2base allin, tired of speed roaches killing my thirds (this isn't a complete solution but it's close enough for my play level).
5 wins and counting using this. Most recent time, the Zerg took out the chat shotgun, loaded it with whine-mo (Its like ammo, but in chat), and spewed it out before GG. If the prospect looked hopeless to defeat the style, you know you're doing something right. Thanks, Alej. I'll save the fungal dodging, brood blinking, and spine wading for Korhal Compound and Metalopolis.
Antiguua Shipyard
Yeah, Antig-goo-a does turn really purple in PvZ. Goo everywhere!
|
Noob questions here: do you ever 16 nex against z? I was under the impression that if you get to their base first try and see pool >14, you are safe to 16 nex.
Would the early game build order be changed at all by a 16 nex?
Also, on some maps like antiga and entombed, I like to get a 2nd cannon at the front just to be safe, but I noticed that with this build it delays my gases and messes things up. Should I not get that 2nd cannon, since this build is vs non gas openers by zerg? It just seems like one cannon can't quite cover the whole front, and I hate when those 4 zerglings are attacking the pylon on the very edge because the cannon can't reach them.
Thanks, Charlie
|
Impressive!!! Helps me alot thank you. Was hitting a wall with Double Stargate into double Robo.
Greetings.
|
Hey Alej,
I started trying this nice build just recently, and I am doing fine if the Zerg lets my third uncontested, or puts just a little pressure. However, I have a hard time dealing with dedicated attacks, like in this game I played with a friend.
http://drop.sc/150317
Is it macro/micro/scouting/timings related?
Could you help me with some pointers, what to do better to not die to this?
thanks
|
Hi, thanks for this great guide.
Would you recommend this build to a Platinum player trying to improve his macro?
If not can you think of an alternative?
|
I played this build now 25 times in ladder and I can say that it´s really good vs everything beside the mass Roach style. Even if I scout it. I held it one time because I was able to trap half of his army in range of the 4 Cannons at the Third.
But in other games I lost horribly.
At the moment I am playing another build I saw TITAN do vs Stephano.
It´s the 4 Gate +1GroundAttack Push with fast Third (~8min) With mass/nonstop Immortal production into double Robo Colossus. This build also has Blink ready at the time the push comes.
~Timings:
FFE
4 Gates +1 start at 6.15min
2.-3. Gas ~7min
Then you take your third ~8min (at this time you only have 3 sentrys and 1 Zealot) So scout properly and place Cannons in time!
With constant Immortal production and smart ff placement you should be able to fend of the push!!
Greetings.
|
can this hold the stephano push?
|
Canada13389 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:33 -MoOsE- wrote:
can this hold the stephano push?
I think something needs to be clarified with regards to the many roach thing
If your opponent isn't actually maxed at 12 minutes in the replay then roach spam isn't the issue, instead its your build not being done optimally.
Kill as many queens as you can with the 5 pheonix, by reducing larva counts and disrupting the Zerg's injection timing you can reduce the number of roaches they can have really quickly which is often enough to provide you a chance to hold the third.
Practice your forcefields and work on sim city. If you have decent sim city and you can force field well you have the opportunity to cut the roach army into sections you can handle.
Keep in mind the third timing as well. I was having a hard time taking my third then when I tried to take it earlier, I ended up doing much better. There is a point in PvZ when doing this kind of build provided here where your minerals go way up and your gas is crazy low. If this happens, you didn't expand to your third early enough. If you have 1000 minerals and zero gas when your third is going down thats ok, if you can't take the third because of ground pressure and you have 2k min and 0 gas you did something really wrong.
Having 1k minerals when taking the third is ok because you end up with a nexus (down to 600 minerals) a couple pylons and some cannons.
Also something to think about for simcity: on Entombed, wall in at the ramp closes the nat after taking your third and wall at the third so the only entrance to your base is the ramp. If they want to attack the wall at the side of the third they will need to leave, walk the long way around and then try and break the wall. This takes a while giving you time to get an extra collossus out or build more energy and get more units which goes a really long way.
|
On April 12 2012 09:33 -MoOsE- wrote:
can this hold the stephano push?
It has the potential to hold it, but it always comes down to your micro when his push comes, regardless of what specific build you do. Shitty forcefields = you're dead. Fight in a wide open area = you're dead. A lot of players cry that mass roach is imba, but I'm quite sure that 9 times out of 10, they lost because they engaged the zerg army in a really bad position or they didn't have enough (or good) forcefields. Range 4 roaches will never beat your protoss army with range 6 stalkers/immortals and range 9 colossi, IF you block him from getting right in your face.
|
Thanks for the guide Alej, fantastic as always! can't wait to try it out a few games :p. I feel as if there are lots of interesting things Protosses are figuring out nowadays, good time for P users and innovation
Edit: Oh wow never realized you were Chrono. I think we've played once or twice :p
|
@soLremark - @ your edit. Holy crap, your chrono Alej? We've played a few times as well haha.
|
Sorry for double post
Alej,
First off i know this is an older guide but this style literally saved my PvZ so first off, THANK YOU. I'm currently a high level Protoss but I'm still having trouble with the 12 min max out roaches. Even with a good sim-city it still feels like when they are hitting, its almost like i'm in transition mode. I have 7-8 sentries, maybe an immortal, a VR, 3-4 phoenix, and then gates transforming and a colosus on the way. This doesn't seem adequate to stop the roaches at all. Any tips on how to beat it once scouted thats what they are doing?
Besides that I have a ridiculously high win rate with this build and I ♥ you
|
Thank you for the excellent guide! I was struggling so hard in PvZ until I forced myself to run this build over, and over again. It almost feels like I am getting a free third when the SG harass works well; five minutes later - GG.
|
On April 16 2012 05:18 -VoidRay- wrote:Sorry for double post Alej, First off i know this is an older guide but this style literally saved my PvZ so first off, THANK YOU. I'm currently a high level Protoss but I'm still having trouble with the 12 min max out roaches. Even with a good sim-city it still feels like when they are hitting, its almost like i'm in transition mode. I have 7-8 sentries, maybe an immortal, a VR, 3-4 phoenix, and then gates transforming and a colosus on the way. This doesn't seem adequate to stop the roaches at all. Any tips on how to beat it once scouted thats what they are doing? Besides that I have a ridiculously high win rate with this build and I ♥ you
hey-
thanks for the nice note
lately I have been going up to 4 immortals if eggs are hatching and all that are coming are roaches. With this, I've been delaying the twilight council and +2 just slightly and opting for a faster +1 armor.. I'm not sure if the +1 armor is very helpful, but it feels nice to keep the forge active when +2 isn't accessible. A much later robo bay is also what I've been going for lately, though I do feel they are pretty essential at some point, regardless of hive tech choices or how long the zerg stays on lair tech.
Going double robo is not something I am a big fan of, but if you make the switch into colo much later than you normally do, it is very important to go double robo when you are safe, even if you only plan on making 4 colossus in the short term. If you go into colossus and want to use it as a core part of your army, you don't want single robo production because at that point the zerg has the tools to react very quickly.
That being said, I am big on staying on 1 robo colossus if you start the first one quite early on, as the sprinkling in of colossus puts zerg in a very weird place--this of course can only be achieved early on before he has the infrastructure to suddenly go in to a massive wave of corruptors, and doing so is not beneficial for him because I am absolutely fine trading my 2-3 colossus for him having invested so much in corruptors. Upgrades stalkers will do just fine without any aoe if he has made such an investment.
|
How does this hold stephano's 12 minute maxout?
|
On April 16 2012 07:47 Depravity wrote:
How does this hold stephano's 12 minute maxout?
Seriously is this the PvZ-version of "Adelscott no gas" where it has to be asked 50x in every guide thread?
|
United States8476 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:57 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 07:47 Depravity wrote:
How does this hold stephano's 12 minute maxout? Seriously is this the PvZ-version of "Adelscott no gas" where it has to be asked 50x in every guide thread?
At least it's relevant whereas that question isn't relevant to any PvP guide.
|
@Alej,
Thanks for the quick response! One, I would ask, you must have some replays of you using this build defending that style. Would it be possible for you to post some? 2. For clarification purposes, you get your robo, and build 4 immortals and build your bay maybe after the 3rd pops?
Thanks again,
VoidRay
|
How do you handle the 3 base 12 min 200 supply speed roach build? Does this work against it at all?
|
United States8476 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:59 Masvidal wrote:
How do you handle the 3 base 12 min 200 supply speed roach build? Does this work against it at all?
Read the post both 3 and 7 posts above yours.
|
MC vs DRG game 2, MC uses this build.
+ Show Spoiler +
Executed the build perfectly, while losing his third, he manages to hold the relentless aggression from DRG, even from losing all his sentries. NOTE: doesnt lose SG units and switches to phoenix upgrade, Pushes after constantly defending with 2 colossus and tons of blink stalkers.
|
just here to thank you for this build, Alej ! low-master zerg who is in the state of switching cause zerg bores me nowadays. never thought it would be so tough as P, the grass really isnt greener on the other side. although this build is "kinda" old, it still works perfectly and my "alrightish"-scrubby mechanics and multitasking which i took over, can shine with this build ! big thx!!
just 2 small Qs: why only 1 VR and not 2? the micro possibilities to pull one back and still attack with a charged one, seem worthy, or is the 2nd one too much delaying the build? and do you wait for the 1st
phoenix before you move out or do you already go out with only one void?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
