EPT[G] PvZ - 3 Base 3 Col vs 3 Hatch - Page 2
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On March 09 2012 05:07 kcdc wrote: Belha, what exactly is the drg roach style? I'm imagining 3-base speed roach timing at ~12 min off of ~65 drones. Exactly. Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas. Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it. I fact is more like +65 lol. | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 09 2012 05:16 Belha wrote: Exactly. Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas. Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it. Yeah, that attack is why I favor doing a strong zealot+void timing at 8:20 rather than vanilla void+phoenix harass. A well-executed zealot+void pressure makes the speed roach timing much smaller. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On March 09 2012 05:25 kcdc wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 09 2012 05:16 Belha wrote: Exactly. Drg use it aganist any P that try to get a reasonable fast 3rd, and then transition to 4th, and infestor or mutas. Parting and Huk fell aganist this in MLG, and also reach +80% win rate in pvz in gsl with it. Yeah, that attack is why I favor doing a strong zealot+void timing at 8:20 rather than vanilla void+phoenix harass. A well-executed zealot+void pressure makes the speed roach timing much smaller. I used to do that too (rsvp fan as well ^^), but z's in general learned to deal with the void-zealot presure, to the point that sometimes i was getting in a bad position after a good defense in certain maps even hitting at 8:00! I was searching for a more solid, eco build, and imo the Genius one is better (fell in love with it after watching several times the series vs Nestea). I found it safer (little faster void, double sentry) and more eco oriented (big difference with void +1 pressure), more resilent to a roach/queen push too. Just a matter of preference i guess, and kinda dependant of the meta. edit: Also i apreciate sooo much how the build pushes multi tasking capabilities. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
I was going to sit down at try to copy Genius' opener, but you've done it for me :D Thanks! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/#/de/vod/view/23709/high i'd like to reiterate that i really do not see adding additional phoenixes and working on air upgrades as being worthwhile as a response to muta play. in total he added 6 phoenixes after scouting muta tech as well as the +1 air. that's 1000/700! And I don't think anyone would argue that 11 +1 phoenixes are going to have a significant impact as opposed to 5 + 0 phoenixes compared to that enormous opportunity cost. colo range, colo production, and forge upgrades are postponed to the tune of 2.5 game minutes to CB these bad boys out! And of course storm tech is forgone altogether. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 09 2012 08:02 sleepingdog wrote: Cool guide. Funny sidenote - this is EXACTLY the FFE-BO that...wait for it...Tester used pretty much right after release. well hell yeah tester is my boy. i don't recall him making a 3rd nexus too often though  | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 09 2012 09:04 NrGmonk wrote: Cool, this is somewhat similar to what I do. Do you mind posting some benchmarks, such as 3rd timing and first colossi timing? I use a modified Brown build and it gets a 3rd at 9:50 and first colossi at 12:20. Just want some comparisons. Also, what are your gateway timings; how many gateways do you have before you take a 3rd? It might already be in your guide, but I just skimmed it and I'm sorry if I missed it. heyo nexus wants to get up between 12-12:30 4 gates before 3rd unless something other than 3 base roach/3 base roach or ling infestor/2 base muta (i guess 3 base muta as well but that isn't so common without opening with some roaches) 4 gates after 3rd is started, and gates 9 and 10 added as money allows, usually as 3rd is finishing | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 09 2012 09:51 NrGmonk wrote: Based on your description, your opening(First 13 minutes) seems like MC's standard build about 1 year ago. I used to use that build quite a lot, but I found it to be too predictable, as pretty much everyone was using it. The final straw for me was in an MLG Raleigh game between Naniwa and Coca on shakruas plateau. On this map with a short rush distance to the 3rd, Coca scouted and recognized the build right away, reacting in as close to perfect a way as I'd ever seen at the time. He made 8 hydras and droned fully to 3 bases while taking a 4th but not saturating it. His spore placements were also perfect. Then, he maxed with 8 hydra and the rest all roach and corruptor. By the time he attacked, the supplies were around 200 to 130ish and I couldn't see a way for Naniwa to hold on that map. yeah i don't like shak at all for this style. probably the worst of the maps i originally deemed "ok." but really, the areas between both the nat and the pocket 3rd and the nat and the close nat are just too damn wide for this to hold any strong aggression reliably. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote: This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo? I actually prefer a really fast third off of one StarGate. The SG provides you with scouting info in order to know what sort of unit composition to make. I've won a lot of PvZ games scouting Hydra/Roach and going double Robo colo with a third under ten minutes. I'm pretty curious as to why Alej's third isn't faster as well. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 09 2012 09:59 iamke55 wrote: This seems pretty outdated. Why wouldn't you just take a much faster third base and then use the extra resources to catch up on colossus count with double robo? i personally hate going double robo in just about every circumstance. one wave of over-made corruptors and then suddenly any reinforcements clean up whatever is left. what i like about the sg opener is the scouting/denial of scouting that you simply don't get from any other opener. if you take a 3rd, it's much stronger if you can clean up the towers/overlords/loose roaming units with phoenixes rather than dragging your ground units to do it--as this is far more telling of the desire to take a fast 3rd--even if you start your 3rd a little bit later. it's true you will be oversaturated on 2 bases for a little bit before your 3rd finishes, but i find this much better than flaunting that 3rd and immediately quelling his fear of a strong 2 base play. this is obviously diminished if you cannot deny the scouting of your 3rd for any amount of time | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
I thought this was the most standardy standard ultrameganormal of PvZ: Expand using a forge, then tech while expanding to your third and do a pre-hive timing attack with an ungodly amount of stalkers with a few colossi / sentries sprinkled in. I watched the roach/hydra game, and it looked like he could have simply mashed out roach/ling reactively to deny the third instead of trying to get his desired drone count + hydralisks. A few sentries, a few stalkers, and cannons morphing in couldn't possibly hold, could it? | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
Alej! I was going to sit down at try to copy Genius' opener, but you've done it for me :D Thanks! this is not genius's build at all, he get's his third up very fast. | ||
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