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[G] Zerg versus Protoss: Aiurs Armageddon

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 14:34:21
September 16 2011 14:23 GMT
#1
Hey all, it's me again with another match up guide. The last one I can actually produce ( not because I don't have time anymore or something ) because I don't have any authority over the Tv* of Pv* match ups, I don't play them.

Link: http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvp-aiurs-armageddon

This one took me one week to write up ( sucked up most of my free time T_T 43 pages of stuff is quite tough to pump out quickly ) and another week to finish the styling and images. But still, it's here at long last and I can finally fully focus on school stuff again, but more importantly have time to play starcraft.

A quick excerpt out of it


Regular Four gate

[image loading]

This is the most common kind of Four gate rush there is. It is not as all in as the previous and with a reasonable damage done and a well timed expansion, the Protoss can transition out of it relatively well. Never the less, it does hurt his standard play because midgame tech like the blink, robotics facility or stargate are all delayed.

This variation of the build has more than one gas geyser, but it has a few more probes. It doesn't save up as much Chronoboost as the Zealot Stalker 4 gate. The biggest call whether or not he will one base you is the expansion timing. If he isn't going for an expansion around the 6:30 to 6:45 mark, he will most likely go for a one base all in.

Now this is the best place to train your gasematics. As I said earlier, one gas gives you 120 per ingame minute. Four gateways allow the Protoss to build waves of four units at a time, with different build times and gas costs. In our 12 gate-15 assimilator example where the Cybernetics core finishes around 3:41, we can make a little table of how much gas the Protoss has when the warp gate research finishes in terms of Chronoboost usage.

If one Chronoboost is used, the Protoss will have mined for 2 and a half minutes which gives him 340 gas when the warp gate is finished. If he has made a Sentry during that time he will have 240 gas to his disposal and with a Stalker they will have 290. That means with their first wave of warp ins they can make all Stalkers.

If two Chronoboosts are used, the Protoss will have roughly 320 gas to spend, so that gives the Protoss the same abilities warp in wise. They can warp in a Sentry earlier and still have enough for one huge wave of Stalkers at the start. At four Chronoboosts though, 280 gas is mined. Which means that at the first warp in can only be three Stalkers and a Zealot if he has gotten a Sentry beforehand. An extra Stalker will give the Protoss a regular full Stalker warp in. With a full round of Zealots warped in first, the Protoss saves the 300 gas for future warp ins, which means the Protoss can warp in two round of Stalkers behind eachother.

Looking at the build times, the regular unchronoboosted Zealot builds in 28 ingame seconds. The Sentries and Stalkers have the same build time at 32. That way we can take every half minute as a benchmark for warp ins. If we notice a faster warp in we know he is chronoboosting, if we notice a slower warp in, we know he SUCKS at warp ins . The other big weakness to a Four gate rush is that the Protoss cannot sustain constant production from it if he does good warp ins, so the warp ins will continiue to be further apart and the reinforcements will weaken in numbers.

Every 30 seconds, a one gas Protoss will mine 60 gas. So with every warp in they can only build Zealots and perhaps one Stalker. If he has two gasses up, he mines 120 gas with every 30 second. This means that if you notice two warp ins, both with two Stalkers or one Sentry warped in, you can safely say that he is on two gas.

Stopping a Protoss Four gate attack is hard for a new Zerg, but it will get gradually easier when your injections get more well timed. You have some leaway of tech in this four gate because it doesn't come so quick nor is it so all in that the Protoss feels urged to attack right away. This way you can get out an evolution chamber and get the +1 Melee upgrade. It will not finish the second the attack starts, but over time you can delay the Protoss advancement and get your 20% stronger Zerglings up to crush the attack. You can also drone up to around 25 or 26.

Now that we can calculate the amount of units and what kind of units he can warp in, we know what to expect from the Protoss. You know that the Protoss cannot warp in a full round of Stalkers unless he sucks at constant warping in. You know he cannot possibly warp in two Sentries in a later warp in on one base. So now we'll look at our defensive arsenal; Queens, Spine crawlers and Zerglings.

As I said before, Spine crawlers take a lot of hits from a Zealot at 21. It takes 25 shots from a Stalker and Sentries really don't do any damage at 4 damage every ingame second. These guys can take a lot of shots, and not only that, they deal a lot of damage too. It kills a Sentry in 4 whacks and Stalkers and Zealots in 6. Queens also take a lot of beating so these two options give you a great defensive entrenchment. Zerglings are great for defense as they are fairly cheap and gateway units can't attack multiple targets at once. Double spawn larva on two hatcheries gives you an extra 16 larvae per one and a half minute. That means with ever 3 minutes you can make 64 Zerglings with just the Spawn larva abilities. The regular larva spawned from hatcheries give you 8 larva every minute with two hatcheries every ingame minute. That's another 16 lings.

This huge surge of units makes Zerglings, Spine crawlers and Queens the best way to respond to a Four gate rush. If you make the Zerglings just before the first warp in of the Protoss, you can have an overwhelming force that can surround the warp ins. With these early Zerglings you should take the Xel'Naga towers and scout for hidden back doors with Zerglings for proxy pylons and probes. Taking out the probe or the pylon will delay the whole rush by a lot and give you a lot of time to get the Spine crawlers up. You should always have the Zerglings out on the map scouting for the reinforcement pylon to put pressure back onto the Protoss in a small way.

Three Spine crawlers will stop the Protoss from advancing into your natural for a long long time, especially when a large body of Zerglings is on the map. This delay will give you the time needed to get the upgrade or roaches out. With good injections and macro, you will overwhelm him easily and delay his expansion with this large mass of Zerglings and thus win the game.


Let me know what you guys think
Maxie
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden2653 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 14:33:49
September 16 2011 14:32 GMT
#2
Link doesn't work, one http too much ;P

http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvp-aiurs-armageddon

I'll definetely shove this into my friend's face, since he's been complaining that toss is OP for weeks now... thanks, it might stop the QQ!
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
September 16 2011 14:35 GMT
#3
Thanks for the correction!

And don't worry, I'm complaining about toss OP too. I just deal with it through other ways than whining ( well... I still whine rationally sometimes, just don't look my name up in any thread regarding ZvP balance >.> )
Vond
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Sweden145 Posts
September 16 2011 14:43 GMT
#4
Thank you sir! I've read, and loved, your ZvT and ZvZ guides and was hoping you'd make one for ZvP aswell. Now off to actually read it..
FenneK
Profile Joined November 2010
France1231 Posts
September 16 2011 14:45 GMT
#5
even as a protoss player, this is awesome

great job!
good luck have batman
ExquisiteRed
Profile Joined February 2011
396 Posts
September 16 2011 14:50 GMT
#6
love these guides, thank you!
JoeAWESOME
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden1080 Posts
September 16 2011 14:57 GMT
#7
Awesome man. Gonna read it through and find things that I can improve in my play.
Most if it is very basic for Zerg but that is a good thing. I think everyone can benefit from reading this and hopefully a lot of will read this!

AWESOME job!
Simply Awesome! - Liquid'Ret - NSHoSeo_Seal - coLMVP_DRG - EG_Idra - Fnatic.NightEnd
Vandroy
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Sweden155 Posts
September 16 2011 16:05 GMT
#8
Great work! That's one hell of a guide, the effort you've put in your guides is really impressive.
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
September 16 2011 16:24 GMT
#9
Alright, I have gotten quite some flack from Protosses on reddit about my rather biased comments in the guide ( and on reddit ).

I sincerely apoligize to anyone that is offended by them ( which people clearly are according to the comments and downvotes ) and added a warning to the description of the post on my blog.
Cibron
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden253 Posts
September 16 2011 16:32 GMT
#10
On September 17 2011 01:24 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Alright, I have gotten quite some flack from Protosses on reddit about my rather biased comments in the guide ( and on reddit ).

I sincerely apoligize to anyone that is offended by them ( which people clearly are according to the comments and downvotes ) and added a warning to the description of the post on my blog.


'rather biased' is the mother of understatements, but a nice read anyway.
ZOMGY (¬O_o)¬ || BeastyQQ FTW!! ||
Zarent
Profile Joined February 2011
109 Posts
September 16 2011 16:42 GMT
#11
This is, in fact, just a balance whine which is ridiculous, as well as a horrible guide. You make tons of blanket statements about the protoss lategame being better overall (although give no concrete reasons as to why), and completely ignore Infestor/Broodlord until extremely, extremely late in the guide.

Crappy guide.
tmzu
Profile Joined August 2010
58 Posts
September 16 2011 16:48 GMT
#12
On September 17 2011 01:42 Zarent wrote:
This is, in fact, just a balance whine which is ridiculous, as well as a horrible guide. You make tons of blanket statements about the protoss lategame being better overall (although give no concrete reasons as to why), and completely ignore Infestor/Broodlord until extremely, extremely late in the guide.

Crappy guide.



Shut up

User was warned for this post
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 16:56:41
September 16 2011 16:53 GMT
#13
On September 17 2011 01:42 Zarent wrote:
This is, in fact, just a balance whine which is ridiculous, as well as a horrible guide. You make tons of blanket statements about the protoss lategame being better overall (although give no concrete reasons as to why), and completely ignore Infestor/Broodlord until extremely, extremely late in the guide.

Crappy guide.

Wow wow wow there.

The only really balance whine part is the Dissecting protoss lategame part and I have supported that with the things I find too strong ( warpgate shotgun warp ins, Protoss AOE and Voidrays that kill both my tier 3 units ).

After that I have about 40 pages of content that show you how many hits it takes to kill certain units with upgrades, various styles and answers to things like fourgates and other one base styles.

Just because Infestor broodlord is in the lategame part of the guide doesn't mean it doesn't deserve any focus. There's even a table of content so you can get to the part you need to read quickly. Don't call my entire FREE write up crappy because you were blinded by the protoss comments in between.

I'll take any personal comments right to the face with pride, but nobody disses the amount of work I put into these things with all my heart for the community. I want you to know that that comment is the only one that has truly made me angry in a long long time, congratulations.
Zarent
Profile Joined February 2011
109 Posts
September 16 2011 17:14 GMT
#14
I'm actually decently happy about that.

There's a distinct bias, and the fact that you completely disregard a -core- unit to your race is not only silly but downright bad advice for the majority of players. For example, in your section for 2 Base Colossus - Voidray, also known as the midgame Protoss deathball, AGAIN, you neglect to even mention the word infestor despite it being widely considered the usual response.

Additionally, you very rarely look at things that Protoss players can do and how to respond to them as Zerg besides the early game and cheesy bullshit. What to look out for and the differences between 6gate expands, 7gate blink +2 allins, Warp Prism harass, etc. - for a comprehensive guide, it's very helpful for a very small group of people, and otherwise misleads the readers because You, the author, can't get your biased play out of your head. Taking from your reddit comment, you say that you try to end the game around the midgame because you're afraid of the Protoss deathball - a style which is incredibly outdated at this point. Pushing would be 'students' to favor this flawed style is not a good service to the community.
Sweeper8
Profile Joined February 2011
United States25 Posts
September 16 2011 18:03 GMT
#15
"If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"




LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS

Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.


Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss.
Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 18:56:09
September 16 2011 18:55 GMT
#16
People complaining about the Protoss comments probably haven't actually read the thing...

I might have offended you if you are reading this as Protoss, if you have, I sincerely apoligise. It was all in good fun and it was just to put a pat on the shoulders of all the Zerg players that have to cry out their tears before they can improve their game.


Edit: Also it was a really good read, thank you.
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
Ventil
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Sweden414 Posts
September 16 2011 19:57 GMT
#17
wow. I just read though the whole thing, and I at least found it to be fantastic. As a platinum player, I'll try to take everything that was written into account when trying to polish my own gameplay.
Twitter: @VeNtiLSC
Cosmology
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada360 Posts
September 16 2011 20:01 GMT
#18
Awesome guide man, really really awesome!
Somewhere, something amazing is waiting to be known.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
September 16 2011 20:15 GMT
#19
On September 17 2011 03:03 Sweeper8 wrote:
"If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it"




LOL did you even think before you wrote this? Protoss having a 300 food push. That would take at least 50 gateways, which is 7,500 minerals. Whereas Zerg doesn't need to spend resources on production facilities, just maintain injects. Protoss units aren't cost efficient at all. The only unit that is cost effective would be the blink stalker, but that is completely negated by infestors. Protoss units may be supply efficient, but Zerg definately beats Protoss in cost efficiency. I don't understand what makes you think the void ray is so good. Yes it beats pretty much everything in a 200/200 battle, but not anywhere near cost effectively. Not to mention how impractical it would be to literally get 200/200 void rays in a game. Protoss has more AOE users, but that's because the rest of our units have low DPS. Zerglings, ultras, broodlords, hydras, and infestors all do sick DPS

Also, quit refering to Protoss late game as a deathball. 12+ broodlords can destroy all the protoss ground, while infestors easily counter every protoss air unit. The only times I've seen a Protoss beat a non roach/hydra/corruptor Zerg in a 200/200 battle was when they Zerg engaged very poorly or had his broods way way way out of position and allowed them to get sniped.


Don't try to QQ in a writeup when current statistics and results clearly show Zerg superior to Protoss.


Did you know templar actually roll infestors? feedback? very good ^_^. Also voidrays do very well vs broodlords as well. When its late game and toss is going colossi/templar/archon/voidray not easy to beat at all even with infestors. Tosses lategame army is way stronger then any of the other races there is no real disputing that.

Great guide op enjoyed the read ^_^
When I think of something else, something will go here
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
September 16 2011 20:15 GMT
#20
Very very cool guide, 90% of it is amazing, but yeah the balance whine is annoying.
If we read through all of this, we can essentially note that the Protoss as a whole is better in EVERY ASPECT in the lategame. Their 300 food push is better, their units are more cost-effective and they have more strong Area of Effect dealers than Zerg has. Basically, lategame Protoss is bullshit. Accept the reality and deal with it.

This part was just silly.
BUT, overall, this is really useful and a fantastic guide for up and coming player.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
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