EPT[G] Zerg versus Protoss: Aiurs Armageddon - Page 2
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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Korinai
Canada413 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1154 Posts
However, since Blade approved the guide, I'm gonna read and enjoy it, many thanks! | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On September 17 2011 05:15 blade55555 wrote: Did you know templar actually roll infestors? feedback? very good ^_^. Also voidrays do very well vs broodlords as well. When its late game and toss is going colossi/templar/archon/voidray not easy to beat at all even with infestors. Tosses lategame army is way stronger then any of the other races there is no real disputing that. Great guide op enjoyed the read ^_^ Blade has spoken! Quiet little ones and listen. :-) Good job OP. I think your builds are fine, not thoroughly excited by most of it, but I think it is a thorough fair analysis. You could definitely add more to it and discuss the relative merits of the 3 big builds, Hatch first vs Economic Pool vs Early Pool with more attention to what they mean for the Protoss. | ||
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dslyecix
Canada37 Posts
Great guides IMO! | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
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KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
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Bismillah
69 Posts
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VSEJX.png) Also, nice guide. But, I would argue for a few differences. 1. For the speedling expand build, you said that to only make two sets of lings if he tries to pylon block you. I disagree, and think you should always get 2 pairs. 1 Pair for XNTs, and the other pair for scouting his expo time/ tech 2. For the Roach/ling/infestor section, you forgot to mention how effective HT/Coli/Stalker is against it. Especially if he has more than four coli. Carpet storms are extremely effective against roaches and zerglings, and it is surprisingly difficult to stop your infestors from being feedback'd when you are spending all of your APM is devoted to focus firing down the coli and dropping down fungals and parasites. 3. You said that in the midgame both protoss and zerg are on two bases. This is largely wrong, because most zergs see midgame as being the phase between hatch tech and hive tech, from the time their lair pops until their hive tech buildings pop. You should have said that the zerg should be on three to the protoss two bases. Besides that, it's a really nice guide. Thnx, looking forward to the ZvT and ZvZ versions. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On September 19 2011 10:05 Conquerer67 wrote: I lol'd at this pic. Also, nice guide. But, I would argue for a few differences. 1. For the speedling expand build, you said that to only make two sets of lings if he tries to pylon block you. I disagree, and think you should always get 2 pairs. 1 Pair for XNTs, and the other pair for scouting his expo time/ tech 2. For the Roach/ling/infestor section, you forgot to mention how effective HT/Coli/Stalker is against it. Especially if he has more than four coli. Carpet storms are extremely effective against roaches and zerglings, and it is surprisingly difficult to stop your infestors from being feedback'd when you are spending all of your APM is devoted to focus firing down the coli and dropping down fungals and parasites. 3. You said that in the midgame both protoss and zerg are on two bases. This is largely wrong, because most zergs see midgame as being the phase between hatch tech and hive tech, from the time their lair pops until their hive tech buildings pop. You should have said that the zerg should be on three to the protoss two bases. Besides that, it's a really nice guide. Thnx, looking forward to the ZvT and ZvZ versions. There already are ZvZ and ZvT guides... I really should make that blog button in the top navigation shouldnt I T_T http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvz-alpha-omega and http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvt-survival-of-patient I will say that even I haven't thoroughly learned the midgame responses for all the different styles yet. It is a lot of games to play just to understand how each and every one holds up to a 5 gate push, a 6 gate push, a 6gate robo push, a collosus 5gate push, a blink +2 6gate push and a sentry warpprism blockade 6 gate push. That is why I deliberately left out the responses to each of these pushes , because if I said anything I would probably not be 100% correct about it. I gave you all the different styles and when you can go each and every one ( like a mutalisk style after a delayed cybercore ). But I will leave winning the game to the readers, to respond correctly and build drones at the same time. And yes, in a lot of cases a midgame zerg will have a 3rd rather quickly. But in the Roach/Banelingbomb/Ling style you are kept on a largely 2 base economy and having the third as a bait to lure the Protoss out like a mouse. And the Destiny Infestor ling style without contaminates does not take a third fast. And on your HT/STalker/Collosus comment, isn't everything bad against that? Mutalisks will die to the storm, Infestors would die to feedback and Overlords would be stormed to be withered down. Collosi are good against anything on the ground anyway, I think that is a given. So I don't really see the point in telling what engagements will be really hard, you should be able to pick them out anyway. Thanks for the reply  | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
The biggest call whether or not he will one base you is the expansion timing. If he isn't going for an expansion around the 6:30 to 6:45 mark, he will most likely go for a one base all in. This timing is incorrect. If you rely on this to spot 4 gates, you would have a 0% win rate against 4 gate. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On September 19 2011 16:14 arbitrageur wrote: This timing is incorrect. If you rely on this to spot 4 gates, you would have a 0% win rate against 4 gate. I wonder why my winpercentage is roughly 90 % against 4 gates then. If I see no base after 6:45, I'll just make some Zerglings. If he doesn't expand I'll have some Zerglings out to start off with and if he does expand I have some lings to poke at his natural a bit, forcing some forcefields. 0% winrate is quite an exageration. | ||
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k3m4
Germany94 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
I remember you warning us there wouln't be a z v p guide, cause you had to work.... but finally it comes! Thanks, I am eager to read that Macpo | ||
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:08 Sated wrote: Your "fact": Protoss have the "undisputed", strongest late-game army. Actual fact: Protoss can't seem to win anything at the moment. + Show Spoiler [GSL Spoiler!] + MC is in Code B now, for example. Something doesn't add up. This guide is just a massive balance whine, which is pretty freakin' ironic considering Protoss is doing the worst in pro-games at the moment. If Protoss is so strong, how come no one is doing any good with them? :S EDIT: A good guide doesn't reinforce the insecurities that players have built up in their minds. If I read a Protoss guide that reinforced my idea that Unit X is overpowered then that wouldn't help me, it would just make me feel even more disheartened every time I saw Unit X take to the field. What people need from a guide is to feel like they can beat certain compositions if they play it correctly, what they don't need is to feel like they have to be 10x better than their opponent to win - the latter reduces the number of opportunities people have to learn and it is a mindset a guide should seek to avoid reinforcing. (Now... If only I could look past the insecurities I have regarding my own race...) Stop overexaggerating. It isn't just a massive balance whine. Zerg versus Protoss to me is still my hardest match up, so forgive me that I put some of my own personal thoughts in it. I could have made a clinical fact sheet too. People seem to dislike any negative emotion regarding X so I doubt I will do a major guide again regardless of the large positive feedback that I also get. To me, knowing that I have to outplay my opponent will only make me play faster and focus more. I can see that some people will just be disheartened by the idea, but its just how I feel. Protoss might be doing bad in the GSL and the other high end tournaments, but the win-loss rates are fairly even on the ladder. We aren't all GSL players and everyone has problems with certain match ups. I feel that ZvT is favoured for Zerg right now, especially Ultralisk/Speedbaneling. I also noted this in my ZvT guide, but nobody whined about that 'balance whine'. I'll be the first to say that I definitely need to improve my ZvP a lot, I need to improve my mechanics and my overall decision making. Still, people showed a lot of interrest to have a ZvP guide made by me much like the ZvZ and ZvT guides. That's why I made it, not to make a point about balance AT ALL. I am collecting a large replay pack for ZvZ, ZvT and ZvP right now. And I'll say this to warn everyone about the dialogue that might be in those replays. Don't watch them if you don't expect some frustration in some of them. Any point made about 'just a balance whine' will be ignored. I get it, you don't like my writing. Get on with your day and don't waste your time posting what tons of other people already have. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:08 Sated wrote: Your "fact": Protoss have the "undisputed", strongest late-game army. Actual fact: Protoss can't seem to win anything at the moment. + Show Spoiler [GSL Spoiler!] + MC is in Code B now, for example. Something doesn't add up. This guide is just a massive balance whine, which is pretty freakin' ironic considering Protoss is doing the worst in pro-games at the moment. If Protoss is so strong, how come no one is doing any good with them? :S EDIT: A good guide doesn't reinforce the insecurities that players have built up in their minds. If I read a Protoss guide that reinforced my idea that Unit X is overpowered then that wouldn't help me, it would just make me feel even more disheartened every time I saw Unit X take to the field. What people need from a guide is to feel like they can beat certain compositions if they play it correctly, what they don't need is to feel like they have to be 10x better than their opponent to win - the latter reduces the number of opportunities people have to learn and it is a mindset a guide should seek to avoid reinforcing. (Now... If only I could look past the insecurities I have regarding my own race...) Bro, every human being is biased, why do you expect 100% unbiasedness in anyone's work? If you don't like it, don't whine about it. To OP: Great great guide, it reminded me i can actually still make roach hydra against protoss! | ||
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DustyShelf
United Kingdom111 Posts
As a mere platinoob fool that has always had _serious_ issues with my ZvP, I really appreciate the thorough write up! For us lower level idiots who have the micromanagement abilities of a sausage fingered giant ZvP can be really hard, I appreciate that at higher levels of micro it seems that infestor ling can just roll over protoss but man.... I can never pull that shit off :D :D :D But yea, this guide really helps, makes me feel excited about the match up again! No speed nydus is hilarious. I HAVE to try that out! :D In terms of cheese you did miss out the La Wzpinha build, ovie speed spine crawler push and hatch at foot of ramp spine crawler push but that's not taking anything away from the guide. It is _super_ thorough! <3 you! | ||
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