Mass baneling drops , a ZvP Midgame

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 16 2011 21:53 GMT

Mass baneling carpet bombing, a midgame transition in ZvP.

Before you read this thread, please read these:

The Art of ZvP Part 2
Dying in the early game? Losing to 4gates? This is the guide to read. It helped me loads and it works great if your goal in ZvP is to learn to survive 1base plays ( which I suggest if you lose to them often ).

[D]Banelings – The solution to the weak Z 200/200 army?
The thread that made me try out baneling drops. An inspiration to me and without this post this guide would have never sprung to life. As such I can only give ChickenLips the credit to this idea.

This guide contains:


The What – Mass baneling carpet bomb transition in the midgame.
The Why – Why baneling drop his units?
The How – Different ways to do Mass Baneling Carpet Bombs.
Comparisons between MBCB and Corruptors.
My own experimental transitions.
Tips.
Numbers – When is this costeffective?
23 replays, both wins and losses. Including Units lost numbers before and after the drops
Readers poll.

For the sake of my laziness, Mass Baneling Carpet bombs will be refered to MBCB's in this guide.

The What – Mass baneling overlord drops transition in the midgame in Zerg versus Protoss

Now you're wondering, what is this transition he is talking about?
Basically it boils down to this:
After you have defended the first major push and/or you're on 2 base, get overlord speed and drop from both your hatchery and lair. When this is almost finished, build a banelings nest and a ton of zerglings/overlords.
As the banelings nest finishes, make banes and load up the overlords with your huge amount of banelings.
Wait for his next push and drone up/roach up. Make sure you are getting a third.
During his push, float the overlords above his army and drop them on top of the resource heavy clumped up protoss army. If done correctly, most of his units should have died and you will have army traded, except a handful ( often about 15 )of roaches will have survived.

The Why – Why baneling drop his units?

The reason I started doing this is because often you cannot predict when the protoss collosi-deathball push comes. I did hydra/roach/corruptor a lot, but the protoss was often able to walk right into my army with his forcefield/collosi attack. There's always a timing where the protoss army was stronger than a zerg one, and for some reason they always managed to hit that timing spot on.

When I started to experiment a bit, I tried baneling drops. For the heck of it I decided to just get a touch of roaches and then get a nice big cloud of overlords filled with banelings. From my experiments I could conclude that the timingwindow got smaller for protoss. I was able to army trade much easier than when I had to wait for my corruptors to spawn. Making banelings the brunt of my army for a short time in the midgame, gave me far more chances to survive than my suckish roach/hydra corruptor army.

This composition is solely used to survive the second major protoss push. This often occurs between the time where protoss has his collosi numbers up and is getting his third ( and fourth ) up.
It gets the strongest composition possible for 2 base zerg, just to make sure you can get your third up and can gear up for later stages of the game.

I quickly learned that MBCB's are hugely mineral heavy. As one overlord full of banelings cost 300 minerals and 100 gas, paired with some empty dud overlords worth 100 minerals each.
You cannont sustain continious bombardment on the protoss forces. One overlord fleet is good to make you survive the midgame, after that the returns diminish because you simply cannot drone up, get a bigger army quickly AND get another overlord fleet.

However, as this transition costs so much minerals, your gas will stock up. You can tech while you wait for his push to come. I will talk more about my thoughts about transitioning from this midgame army later in this guide.

Summary : Get one fleet of overlords ( around 21 , not all filled with banelings ) in the midgame, drop them on his units and TRANSITION into something else.

The How – Different ways to do MBCB

Now that you're interrested in this, I'll teach you the different ways that you can MBCB.

The “Planet cracker” ( also known as just dropping all your banelings in one spot ).
+ Show Spoiler +

This is the easiest way to drop your banelings. It focusses all your damage in one small spot, making the center of the bombardment the quickest part of the army to die. The longer the bombardment continiues, the less costeffective it becomes due to less units being clumped up.

Execution: Press D on the ground where the protoss army is, making sure you don't press D on an overlord with banelings inside.

Pros – Center dies quicker.
      – Gives you time to do a quick fist pump as you see their army melt.

Cons – Takes longer travel time for the outer overlords
      – Shows the protoss which overlords have banelings inside
      – Makes the overlords more susceptable to airsplash from archons and storms.

Carpet bombing
+ Show Spoiler +

This is the hard way. You individually drop the banelings from the overlords onto the protoss army. Making sure the overlords don't clump up and having more controll, as you can move your overlords while they are dropping. You're making sure their air splash has less effect on you.

Execution: Spam D and individually click the overlords with banelings inside.

Pros – Less susceptable to protoss air splash
      – Protoss doesn't know which overlord to focus down.
      – More splash on the overall army.

Cons – Much harder to do than the previous method. Requires a LOT of APM to execute propperly.
      – Their army numbers won't drop as fast.

Comparisons between Corruptors and MBCB

If you're able to defeat protoss armies with hydra roach corruptor consistantly, you obviously shouldn't want to consider getting this tech, as you're used to doing that which works for you. However, for the majority that has problems with the right timing of getting corruptors, this comes as a great solution.

Corruptors also only deal damage to air units such as the collosi. Banelings deal damage to the whole protoss army and best of all, they deal the damage FAST. It makes sure the combination of collosi and forcefields deals the minimum amount of damage on your army by simply taking it out quicker.

You can also already have the units available before you have the tech ready. Making the tech 10 ingame seconds faster(overlord drop 130 ) than going spire-corruptor ( 140 ).

On top of it all, Overlord speed and drop adds to your ground army. You can drop your units into the protoss base with the tech you got. Whereas spire tech only gets you corruptors, which do great versus collosi, but don't make your army more mobile.

Finally, Baneling drops on the mineral line are about as annoying as hellion drops. It gives you the ability to harrass the mineral line, whereas corruptors can only make probes uglier with their corruption spell.

My own experimental transitions from MBCB

These are my own personal approaches to the time after the MBCB. Feel free to do the thing you like most.

The protoss won't attack!
So you have your overlords armed and you're waiting for his push, but he won't push? Well there are two types of responses you can do.
+ Show Spoiler +

Teching to infestors.

Fungal growth makes sure his army stays in one place. Making him unable to retreat from the drops. After he is immobilized, drop the banelings ontop of this units and keep your roach/hydra force away from his army. This way your army will only need to attack the remnants of the protoss forces, rather than having to endure the lasers of the entire deathball.

Harrassing.

Your protoss opponent is smart enough to sit around on his macro advantage? Don't panic, you have banelings inside overlords. Drop them on top of his probes ( 2 banelings kill a probe, +2 melee banes oneshot them ).

The best way of doing this is by dropping on multiple mineral lines at the same time. He won't have the attention span to retreat both of the probes quickly. If you have the apm, try and drop 3 mineral lines at the same time.

The protoss forces have died, and he is only on two bases!
This is the most fortunate situation you can be in. Seeing as his army he build all game long as died, you can simply transition into the trusty hydra/roach/corruptor on 3 base and walk right over him. Make sure he won't take a third and you should be golden.

The protoss forces have died, and he is on 3 or 4 bases
Ah, you have a worthy opponent. You're even on bases and on macro, and he will be able to quickly churn his army back out again. Using double robos or gatewaynumbers that exceed the number of fingers on your hands. This will be a bumpy road, but here are the responses I have tried.
+ Show Spoiler +

Mobility attacks

This is a hard path. It requires a lot of planning and attention.
The plan is, because your opponent is low on units, and he will most likely be at his front line, to drop in the back of his base. Take 3 or 4 overlords full of hydra/roach and drop it. But wait! There's more!

This actually really benefits of having nydus as a retreat route. The last thing you want to have happen is the protoss sacking his base and just picking off your third. Nydus worms provide a quick and easy transportation back to your base. Letting you get ready to defend.

If you make a nydus worm while you are dropping, you have it defended. You are making a quick retreat route that, when entered, has the units secured. Unlike overlords which can be picked off by blink stalkers

On top of being a great retreat, it is a good offense if your opponent has his attention distracted. Once your nydus worm finishes, make another one on the other side of his bases ( his fourth or his third ). Now when you retreat, you can pick off the third or fourth while his army is still moving back from his main base.

Deploy the nydus with your vision

Drop the units and start wrecking his base

Retreat and giggle

This is mostly to buy time. You do not want him to concentrate on pushing you, and while he is busy, you can get a hive and greater spire up. After that, you can transition into a different approach.

The Broodlord fleet

The ultimate anti-protoss unit. If you can buy enough time, you can build up to 13 broodlords and attack one base. He will be too busy trying to destroy that army, so your roach force can attack a different location. The only unit on the ground for protoss that is OK against broodlords are blink stalkers, however, in such great numbers even blink stalkers have trouble with broodlords.

If the protoss user does not have carriers or voidrays, this simply ends the game. Even if he destroys the army, you can easily tech switch into any other tech you want.

Tips

+ Show Spoiler +

Getting melee upgrades will make your banelings more costeffective. In addition, they will make your lategame units ( broodlords and ultralisks ) more effective.

Getting air carapace will make your overlords more durable, but more importantly make your broodlord fleet stronger.

Don'ts
If you see archons in his composition, don't do the planet cracker method to drop banelings. The overlords all clump up in a tiny dot, perfect for the archon splash. Even if they manage to drop, the archons are so strong they will simply shrug off the acid.

If your opponent retreats while storming your army, don't just keep on floating them towards the opponent. Remember, your banelingfilled-overlords cost 300 minerals and 100 gas, thats almost the cost of a collosus. If your overlords get too low overall, retreat and reload the banelings into a more healthy overlord.

Numbers

The numbers below are calculated without any upgrades on either side. I have also not tested these within starcraft 2. I've calculated the shields of the protoss units as always getting 20 damage, regardless of the units characteristics. I do not know if this displays the correct numbers or not. If these are wrong please post the correct amount of baneling hits below and I will correct them here.

Banelings: 50 minerals, 25 gas

Zealots: 100 minerals
Zealots will take 5 banelings to die. It takes 3 zealots to make the banelings cost effective mineralwise.

Stalkers: 125 minerals, 50 gas
Stalkers take 8 banelings to die. It takes 4 stalkers to make the banelings even in gas cost, and make it costeffective mineralwise.

Sentries: 50 minerals, 100 gas
Sentries will cost 3 banelings to die. It only takes one sentry to make banelings gas costeffective, and 2 will make it both gas and mineral costeffective.

High templar: 50 minerals, 150 gas
HT's take 3 baneling hits before they float off into the air, making them already hugely gas costeffective even if the banelings hit one high templar. Let alone 2 or more.

Dark templar: 125 minerals, 125 gas
DT's will gobble up 6 banelings. It takes 3 DT's to make the banelings both mineral and gas costeffective.

Collosi: 300 minerals, 200 gas
Collosi are interresting. If they are alone, they aren't costeffective for banelings. However, when they are above the usual army ( stalkers, sentries , zealots ) they will take the same splash damage as those units. Making them costeffective if they are mixed in with the protoss army.

Immortals and archons are always uncosteffective for banelings. No matter how many upgrades the baneling has.

REPLAYS

The numbers below the replay are the numbers of the units lost tab. Before is before the MBCB landed, after is after the MBCB has done damage.

pre 1.2
Amount of replays : 17 – W 8 – L 9
+ Show Spoiler +

WIN -1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125194-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station

WIN -2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125193-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

WIN -3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125189-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
Before – Protoss lost:3550 Zerg lost:3150
After – Protoss lost:6825 Zerg lost:5100

WIN -4
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125191-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
Before – Protoss lost:450 Zerg lost: 1300
After – Protoss lost:2450 Zerg lost:2350

WIN -5
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125559-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Before – Protoss lost:4600 Zerg lost: 2200
After – Protoss lost:8125 Zerg lost:5100

WIN -6
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125526-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Before – Protoss lost:4050 Zerg lost: 7050
After – Protoss lost

975 Zerg lost

800

WIN -7
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127320-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Before – Protoss lost:550 Zerg lost: 400
After – Protoss lost:5125 Zerg lost:2250

WIN -8
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127317-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
Before – Protoss lost:2325 Zerg lost: 800
After – Protoss lost:11050 Zerg lost:6875

LOSS -1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127321-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Before – Protoss lost:0 Zerg lost: 1050
After – Protoss lost:2375 Zerg lost:3525

LOSS -2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127319-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
Before – Protoss lost:1000 Zerg lost: 2450
After – Protoss lost:4750 Zerg lost:5000

LOSS -3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127318-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Before – Protoss lost:1750 Zerg lost: 1750
After – Protoss lost:3775 Zerg lost:3600

LOSS -4
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127316-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
Before – Protoss lost:3125 Zerg lost: 2050
After – Protoss lost:7775 Zerg lost:4850

LOSS -5
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125724-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
Before – Protoss lost:300 Zerg lost: 875
After – Protoss lost:5225 Zerg lost:4450

LOSS -6
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125558-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Before – Protoss lost:1475 Zerg lost: 2000
After – Protoss lost:7075 Zerg lost:5400

LOSS -7
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127357-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
Before – Protoss lost:250 Zerg lost: 1200
After – Protoss lost:5025 Zerg lost:3750

LOSS -8
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127358-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Before – Protoss lost:600 Zerg lost: 1025
After – Protoss lost:2475 Zerg lost:2450

LOSS -9
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127356-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Before – Protoss lost:5750 Zerg lost: 7050
After – Protoss lost:6625 Zerg lost:7400

Post 1.2
Amount of replays: 6 – W 1 – L 5 T_T
NOTE: Because sc2replayed doesn't have 1.2 compatibility yet, this will remain replay less for a bit. I will upload them as soon as they get the support up.
+ Show Spoiler +

WIN -1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127872-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Before – Protoss lost:1275 Zerg lost:1575
After – Protoss lost:7025 Zerg lost:7125

LOSS -1
<1st craftcup match>
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127873-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
Before – Protoss lost:3100 Zerg lost:3225
After – Protoss lost:6225 Zerg lost:6225

LOSS - 2
<ZvP MBCB vs immortal push> <dropnydus play
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127874-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Before – Protoss lost:150 Zerg lost:850
After – Protoss lost:3250 Zerg lost: 2875

LOSS – 3
<ZvP MBCB loss vs 4base>
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127875-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
Before – Protoss lost:2250 Zerg lost:2100
After – Protoss lost:6200 Zerg lost:4050

LOSS -4
<ZvP MBCB phoenix death>
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127876-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
Before – Protoss lost:3325 Zerg lost:3250
After – Protoss lost:4200 Zerg lost:6350

LOSS – 5
<ZvP MBCB vs immortal push into outmacroed>
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127877-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Before – Protoss lost:0 Zerg lost:575
After – Protoss lost:2675 Zerg lost:2925

Readers poll

Poll: Have you tried MBCB's in ZvP?

No, but I might in the future (62)

46%

Yes, and I prefer them over corruptors (33)

24%

I don't know what the hell I'm doing in ZvP (27)

20%

Yes, but I prefer corruptors (11)

8%

No, but I'm sure I prefer corruptors (3)

2%

136 total votes

Your vote: Have you tried MBCB's in ZvP?

(Vote): Yes, and I prefer them over corruptors
(Vote): Yes, but I prefer corruptors
(Vote): No, but I'm sure I prefer corruptors
(Vote): No, but I might in the future
(Vote): I don't know what the hell I'm doing in ZvP

EDIT : Should've put [G] in the title, I'm stupid -.-

Herculix

United States946 Posts

January 16 2011 23:33 GMT

really great thread, thought provoking and informative. i have a few requests though.

one, do you think you could add a small notation to your replays to summarize? you did that for 1.2 sorta, but you haven't posted reps for those yet, so... yea. normally i don't mind but i'll probably come back to this thread to rewatch reps, and since you have over 10, it would be most convenient.

and two, could you say a little bit about what gives you problems with this style in terms of the opponent's tech decisions? the focus is on fighting the deathball, and my assumptions when reading the title was that it was vs. colossus which is indeed what it mostly ended up being about, but you kind of imply that you will still try it against templar tech but not archons since it's "cost effective." is that correct? and do you just play normal if you see neither a robo bay or a council?

also, what's your decision making like when you see phoenixes/voidrays or blink in response to your drop when he's got the 3 base macro to back him up and not die? basically what i'm asking is, when do you continue with this style and simply build on it with things like infestors, doom drops and nydus as you suggested, and when do you fall back and play more the way people do now? and when i say you, i mean you specifically, not really asking for an "if he, then i" for certain type of thing. i just wanna know what works for you right now, since i imagine you probably don't have this thing completely refined yet.

if any of those questions are answered by the replays that i'm about to watch, then just note which ones. k time to watch~

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 16 2011 23:53 GMT

Good questions.

I did have the notations written down, but my word file crashed out. I couldn't be bothered watching the games over and over again. There should be a little notation on the sc2replayed site.

I do mean gateway + collosi as the death ball. Collosi + gateway units + high templars aren't a problem, the high templar just cost more gas and therefore make the banelings a lot more costeffective. You can simply go hydra roach versus gateway only and immortals. Archons are only the 'anti' overlord drop unit. Because overlords clump up in a tight ball as tiny as possible if you let them all drop on one point. However if you drop them in a carpet style, they should not pose a threat.
Again I would like to state that this is used for the midgame. If they have a high templar gateway force, this will crap right over it. As high templar and sentries are so gas intensive, having them blown up by 3 banelings gets them really bad. Archons are generally not seen in the midgame, and if they are, it means my hydra roach force will be able to kite and kill them off regardless.

I have not refined the transition quite as much. Most protosses nowadays go 1 base ( thanks art of ZvP for letting me never die to them ) and thus don't allow me to get to that stage.
But if they transition into something like phoenixes, voidrays or blink stalkers ( aka NOT collosi ) I can simply transition into my regular hydra/roach mix.
Even with the build time reduction, phoenixes won't be out soon enough to defend versus the small push that comes after the drop. On top of that, phoenixes are good at overlord harrass, but they don't kill them off fast at all. Voidray's are better at that, but hydra's just shred them to pieces.

Versus blink stalkers, I would transition into a regular hydra/roach/ corruptor army. Since the bomb killed off the collosus numbers, he will have mostly stalkers and a lot less collossus. This way you can power through their stalker numbers easily if your corruptors are able to kill off the collosus. I haven't been able to test this transition yet though.

OzkanTheFlip

United States246 Posts

January 17 2011 01:01 GMT

watch hd play this is like his signature move he loves doin it

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 17 2011 22:09 GMT

I have updated the OP with Images from the replays I've collected.

I've played some more games with MBCB, but I had a hard time trying to defeat collosi voidray. I'll add those when the 1.2 support comes

P00RKID

United States424 Posts

January 17 2011 22:51 GMT

Since your getting drop anyways, do you ever use your 3rd queen in an overlord and go tumor block expansions? Say the map is LT and you are close by air, you can fly your queen and creep the cross map main and natural. Would work well on most maps if you are already getting drop that early.

Its not only a great way to slow down protoss while doing the baneling drop build, but will allow you to see when they are going for their expos.

Edit: Also since you're having trouble with collosus voidray, you might be making more queens anyway.

Squirrelly.Zerg

United States20 Posts

January 17 2011 23:10 GMT

The most important thing about the BL fleet is that you follow it up with Hydras, He gets, Carriers or VR's to drop the BL's and a metric ton of Hydra's will smack him arround.

TearDrop

63 Posts

January 17 2011 23:24 GMT

I am able to defend most two base pushed with roach/hydra/corrupter but after watching MrBitter getting coached by Machine I tried doing some baneling drops. However, Machine's way is a bit different. He gets overlord drop and drops the main of the toss to buy time to tech to tier 3. Then later on he incorporates baneling drops into his lategame army if I understood correctly.

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 18 2011 08:02 GMT

On January 18 2011 07:51 P00RKID wrote:
Since your getting drop anyways, do you ever use your 3rd queen in an overlord and go tumor block expansions? Say the map is LT and you are close by air, you can fly your queen and creep the cross map main and natural. Would work well on most maps if you are already getting drop that early.

Its not only a great way to slow down protoss while doing the baneling drop build, but will allow you to see when they are going for their expos.

Edit: Also since your having trouble with collosus voidray, you might be making more queens anyway.

I've incorporated some more queens in my last ZvP. Have to say I'm delighted on how good they are.
I might start queendropping some, thanks for the idea!

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 18 2011 17:12 GMT

#10

1.2 support has come! I've added the replays for the recent patch.

My ZvP has really been evolving the last couple of days. I'm adding queens in my composition and they help tremendously. I suggest everyone to try them out. And check the Zv* Queens rock thread, that got me the idea to experiment with them.

I'll add a couple more replays tomorrow.

OmNomSpy

United States68 Posts

January 19 2011 15:19 GMT

#11

The first of these two replays shows a Hydra timing drop into baneling bomb; it's a modified version of Nestea's build against ChoyaFou from the GSL a few days ago. The second replay shows some good old baneling carpet bombing and how cost efficient it can be against templar. The first guy is somewhere in diamond, and to my surprise the second guy was #1 in his master league.

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 19 2011 16:36 GMT

#12

On January 20 2011 00:19 OmNomSpy wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

The first of these two replays shows a Hydra timing drop into baneling bomb; it's a modified version of Nestea's build against HongUnPrime from the GSL a few days ago. The second replay shows some good old baneling carpet bombing and how cost efficient it can be against templar. The first guy is somewhere in diamond, and to my surprise the second guy was #1 in his master league.

Amazing games, Especially liked the baneling drop harrass on 3 different bases, sure took that probecount way down

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

January 19 2011 17:25 GMT

#13

I think the best thing about this thread is it reminds us why banelings are good in the first place and why carpet bombs started gaining popularity around GSL 1 time-frame for ZvT.

Looking at the numbers, I definitely think ovie-bombs could be used more often in all MUs to devastating effect.

Even in ZvZ, when Roach numbers are starting to get big, having something as simple as 2 overlords full of banelings would devastate your opponents roach clump when he rams into you. The biggest problem here would be teching to that point, but once you get there you'd be able to hold roach back with ease.

2 overlords + 8 banelings = 600/200 for 160 damage in a 2.2 AoE. Basically it's Psy Storm on crack. Totally worth the cost of 8 Roaches, the big problem is researching it.

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 19 2011 17:43 GMT

#14

On January 20 2011 02:25 Jermstuddog wrote:
I think the best thing about this thread is it reminds us why banelings are good in the first place and why carpet bombs started gaining popularity around GSL 1 time-frame for ZvT.

Looking at the numbers, I definitely think ovie-bombs could be used more often in all MUs to devastating effect.

Even in ZvZ, when Roach numbers are starting to get big, having something as simple as 2 overlords full of banelings would devastate your opponents roach clump when he rams into you. The biggest problem here would be teching to that point, but once you get there you'd be able to hold roach back with ease.

2 overlords + 8 banelings = 600/200 for 160 damage in a 2.2 AoE. Basically it's Psy Storm on crack. Totally worth the cost of 8 Roaches, the big problem is researching it.

Actually, in ZvZ its a bit different.

You see... infestors. They immobilize your overlords, you can't drop on top of the army. Even then hydra's would absolutely shred baneling filled overlords.

The reason it works so well in ZvP is because protoss doesn't have an insane anti-air unit such as the hydralisk or the marine. The best they have to offer is the stalker, which fires a lot slower. I have met some good protosses who know whats up and blink away and focusfire the overlords, but I can still chase them with my roach army, dealing good damage.

And I basically started doing this because in the lategame, you NEED splash. EMP, Storm, fungal. You have 4 splash units as zerg, Banelings, infestor's fungal, mutalisks ( lol ) and ultralisks. Fungal is too expensive for the pityful damage it does to the protoss army. Mutalisks just aren't durable and ultralisks come out way too late.

This leaves us with banelings. Normally banelings just get annihilated by forcefield and everything that can shoot lasers ( aka the entire fricking protoss army ) but with overlords carrying them they can move to their destination and do the splash damage it needs to do.

Alejandrisha

United States6565 Posts

January 19 2011 17:55 GMT

#15

This is a pretty good tactic in the midgame, but when I have faced it, the zergs try to do it on even footing and I think that is can only be really effective if the zerg's 3rd base timing is substantially earlier than that of the protoss. On even footing, the protoss can forcefield off the roaches or whatever units you have on the ground and micro back with an army that is faster than overlords and pick them off. The banelings will do some damage but it most likely won't be killing every single sentry in the protoss ball. And if you don't do a whole lot of damage with it, you have 200/200 sunk into drops and 300/100 for each full overlord and 100 for each empty one which will have to replaced..

I think baneling drops work most effectively later in the game once you're both on 3 plus bases and you drop the banelings in the mineral lines as there is no good way to stop these drops other than having eyes and/or cannons all over the map and somehow suspecting that those overlords are in fact full of banelings. and even if the protoss has a few cannons at each mineral line, 200 hp is a decent amount of hp for a dropship and those banelings will most likely hit their mark.

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

January 19 2011 18:41 GMT

#16

If you place forcefields, why do my overlords have to drop if I know you're retreating? To me it just seems like some wasted forcefields.

Sentries are pretty weak and slow, you'd be surprised how easily they die to banelings. I won't engage if you put a ring of forcefields to prevent my ground army from attacking. Simple as that. I'll defend my third and get my eco up until I have the means ( infestors ) to stop you from running.

I don't really mind putting 200/200 into drops and 100/100 into overlord speed. I need the speed for scouting anyway and else I wouldve put 200/200 into a spire which makes 150/100 corruptors that can ALSO be kited, and which only target collosus. I simply want that big midgame force dead, then I can start manipulating the protoss instead of the protoss manipulating me.

DjayEl

France252 Posts

February 14 2011 13:16 GMT

#17

I didnt see this thread before today, but I came up with a similar strategy about two week ago while constantly loosing to my rank 1 diamond Protoss team mate, who loves to 3-gate expand into Colossi, and I crushed him with bane drops.

I tried baneling drops many times again until then and it worked incredibly well. I sincerly am starting to think that banelings are imbalanced as they are now, and that they will be nerfed eventually, when people discover how to use them, as they are so so much better than Corruptors against a Colossi-Stalker ball, and really too much cost effective against clumped, difficult to spread, armored protoss units.

And I just watched a game of RootCatz vs RootKiwikaky on Scrap where Catz just pwns his teammate with an interesting Speeding hydra bane strat (no drops, but baneling speed researched), and I really thing that banelings are the future of ZvP as the metagame is cluttered with roach attacks atm. I think people now are too much afraid of FF to try to abuse banes vs P but I might change (I remind the days of the beta where TLO was tinkering a lot with banes :p)

I read the other thread about banelings you posted in the OP, and I never really thought baneling have some interest because you dont have the gas to do the roach hydra corruptor thing, then mass banelings to try to be more supply effective. A Good P will push with 2-3 Colossi and a huge ball of stalkers/sentries at 14-15 minute mark and my corruptors are barely finished, or if I try to make them earlier, I am not maxed with roach/hydra.

I am not sure what is the best way to use them and I had not watched the replays yes, but I will just tell you what I personnally do, just to add my pov :

I always go Roach hydra with exactly the same BO SieGe describes in his Art of ZvP 2, because Roach Hydra defend so well before Colossi hit the field. Then, I scout and if I see that P go 2 base colossus, instead of throwing a spire for corruptors, I take my third and lauch the drop research. Then I drone up, mass roach hydra, prepare 20 zerglings and throw a baneling nest in a hidden location. Basically, drop + banes are the same price than 5 corruptors gas wise, but they spawn quicker as I just have to morph my banes (as my speedlings are ready) and load them. The good thing is it really hurts his ground like corruptors dont, it is incredibly cost effective as the game goes as P ball become more and more big and expensive, and I am able to reset food, take a 4rth while rebuilding roaches whithout being scared by a counter attack.

Then I can throw a spire and go corruptors, as I am on 4 bases and have the timing lead, it just plays fine. What is great is that I have drop researched, so I can maintain pressure with roach drops in his main, etc.

Here is a replay :

files.me.com/jeanlucmetz/57qvcp

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

February 14 2011 14:29 GMT

#18

Glad you found out about baneling drops on your own ^^.

I do not really think they are imbalanced in any way. You have to get atleast 300/300 invested in the drop tech, make the zerglings, make the banelings, fill the overlords up, and then on point blank range drop them over the army. If anything I find them to be more interresting than the equally powerful but controll lacking collosus.

The build I go nowadays gets a quick +1 melee attack. Extremely helpful against 4gates and early pressure. Followed by a +1 ranged attack and lair. The upgrades really do stack up versus 6gate pressure and the like.

When I've scouted my opponent I can decide if I want to go the baneling drop route ( +2 melee, super cost-effective banelings and they one-hit probes ) or go for a hydra/roach bust ( +2 ranged attack ). I find spire tech to be great versus forge first protosses, or versus mass voidray/collosus. But if I' m up against a 'normal' stalker collosus ball, I' ll always go for baneling drops.

You can decide to snipe the collosi with corruptors or to blow their cover to smithereens with baneling drops. Scouting should give you enough information which path is the best to take.

neoghaleon55

United States7435 Posts

February 14 2011 19:13 GMT

#19

I really have to thank Chickenlips who started thee "[D]Banelings – The solution to the weak Z 200/200 army?" thread, it really saved my sanity against protoss. And most likely proving Artosis and Idra wrong for calling imba :D.

Other than that I want to note that the baneling seems to be the solution to many of zerg's problems in mid-late game. There were a lot of things people couldn't beat earlier and then found out they didn't use banelings enough: MMM ball, mass ling/muta, collosi death ball, etc.

The meta game might evolve to the point that everyone needs a baneling nest regardless of matchup.
Has anyone tried baneling dropping Terran Mech play? That would be interesting.

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