EPTAdmittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they? Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese.
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
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SiarX
100 Posts
Admittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they? Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
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Indepen
4 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote: Do you think that best foreign players - like Mihu, Dewalt, Bonyth - will ever be able to compete realistically with Korean pros? Qualify for ASL and so on? Admittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they? Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese. Nope, the foreigner just surrendered to the chinese. And even they cant compete with the koreans. It took two chinese player to cause an ruckus in the foreigner scene. Btw, Mihu is not a foreigner. | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
 eOnzerg and  Dewalt both attempted to qualify a few years ago -- eOn even went to Korea to train for a month before the qualifiers.It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. There is also a language barrier issue that results in a literal wall preventing foreigner's access to the higher-level analysis and concepts. I think we'd all love to see it happen, but its just so damn competitive.  JYJ, a former champion, wasnt even able to qualify last season...same happened with Zero/Queen in ASL 17. I mean, over the course of the ASL Season 12, Rush played 10,000 (ten. thousand.) practice games, and he still lost... | ||
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SiarX
100 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:31 tankgirl wrote: It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. Why it is not the same game, could you clarify? On May 27 2025 03:30 Indepen wrote: Nope, the foreigner just surrendered to the chinese. And even they cant compete with the koreans. It took two chinese player to cause an ruckus in the foreigner scene. Btw, Mihu is not a foreigner. But Chinese are foreigners, too... Mihu included. | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
Because in any fast-paced game, playing with 150-250ms latency will never be the same as playing with 15ms. Imagine you are preparing for a boxing match. And you must do all your training submerged in a pool of molasses. But when you step into the ring, you discover that the competition takes place on a different battleground entirely: in thin air. No matter how hard you trained, you will always be too slow, and every single one of your opponents has been training in this new, fast-paced environment for decades. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7861 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:31 tankgirl wrote: Last I heard players in China mainland were unable to connect to any Blizzard games due to a legal battle with Tencent (?) eOnzerg and Dewalt both attempted to qualify a few years ago -- eOn even went to Korea to train for a month before the qualifiers.It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. There is also a language barrier issue that results in a literal wall preventing foreigner's access to the higher-level analysis and concepts. I think we'd all love to see it happen, but its just so damn competitive. JYJ, a former champion, wasnt even able to qualify last season...same happened with Zero/Queen in ASL 17. I mean, over the course of the ASL Season 12, Rush played 10,000 (ten. thousand.) practice games, and he still lost... 10000 games? If he played every day for the whole half year, and if a game is 20 minutes in average, counting lobby time, he would have had to play 18 hours a day every single day to reach 10000 games. Seems a bit of an exaggeration really. Where do you get that number from? | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
On May 27 2025 04:07 Biff The Understudy wrote: 10000 games? If he played every day for the whole half year, and if a game is 20 minutes in average, counting lobby time, he would have had to play 18 hours a day every single day to reach 10000 games. Seems a bit of an exaggeration really. Where do you get that number from? I mis-remembered. Actually it was 12,000: + Show Spoiler [source (ASL youtube)] + Kobe (RIP) did 1000 freethrows every day for years. Some people just seem to have that kind of drive? I guess thats why human beings feel its acceptable to valorize them above all others, to reward them so ludicrously (perhaps justly...or unjustly?), and to call them "Champions". If it didnt take real dedication to win, I think perhaps sports wouldnt be as significant to us as a species? | ||
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Gescom
Canada3354 Posts
1000 free throws would take about 90 mins to 2 hours and is realistic and makes sense. | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
On May 27 2025 04:50 Gescom wrote: That's 167 literal days of playtime if we assume a 20 minute game with zero breaks in between. Physically impossible. Why be weird about things? 1000 free throws would take about 90 mins to 2 hours and is realistic and makes sense. I dont know if this is too offtopic now, but: The practice season in question took place during peak COVID, so perhaps that played a role in the amount of time available? In addition, there is some data that might change people's assumptions about average length of a game here: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games I dont have a magic crystal ball or the gods-eye view. The source for this "10,000 games" number I posted above. Maybe Rush lied about it, but I can't see what would be Rush's motivation for lying about it? I dont think its an unrealistic number at all. Id rather believe he did really work that hard. Poor Rush. Just look at his eyes =( ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yB0Kdpp.gif) | ||
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Siz)Beggar
United States339 Posts
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Siz)Beggar
United States339 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:31 tankgirl wrote: Last I heard players in China mainland were unable to connect to any Blizzard games due to a legal battle with Tencent (?) eOnzerg and Dewalt both attempted to qualify a few years ago -- eOn even went to Korea to train for a month before the qualifiers.It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. There is also a language barrier issue that results in a literal wall preventing foreigner's access to the higher-level analysis and concepts. I think we'd all love to see it happen, but its just so damn competitive. JYJ, a former champion, wasnt even able to qualify last season...same happened with Zero/Queen in ASL 17. I mean, over the course of the ASL Season 12, Rush played 10,000 (ten. thousand.) practice games, and he still lost... pretty sure all the top foreirgners can agree eon isnt close to the top hes just all thats left | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6517 Posts
Foreigners realistic aiming to compete are the koreans that play ladder regularly. But the players that qualify for ASL are usually people that played in the Kespa bubble for years. That to this day are still playing in that bubble. Then there is Soma who break all those walls. That we dont really know why top progamers welcomed him to practise with them etc. And obviously the crazy amount of talent that the kid has. Rather than bashing foreigners for not competing with those top koreans. Lets ask more practical questions why all those semipros and koreans that play hardcore are not reaching that level. Lack of talent ? Not being part of the pro circle and not getting the quality practise ? Look for example at the Chinese top players. They are training consistently with koreans but most of the time with lower tier skill koreans not really the top of the top to really commit a daily practise and get more refined. If chineses start to sponsoring games with top koreans vs their chinese players for a year im positive that we will see a Chinese having a real shot qualifying for ASL. But i doubt Top koreans will commit to do something like that having proleagues and their university leagues commitments. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6517 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:16 Siz)Beggar wrote: pretty sure all the top foreirgners can agree eon isnt close to the top hes just all thats left I dont even play this game for years but i promess i will shit on you with all thats left lol And tankgirl is proly talking about 2019 when i went to Korea to play KSL and ASL qualifiers. I have a funny story about that tho. I remember before going to Korea i used to play vs progamer Beast and he will always complain about latency when loss. While i was in Korea i will match him on ladder and still beat him all the time. Latency is just an another aspect that people wronly focus to excuse their misses. | ||
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TMNT
2596 Posts
On May 27 2025 05:46 tankgirl wrote: I dont have a magic crystal ball or the gods-eye view. The source for this "10,000 games" number I posted above. Maybe Rush lied about it, but I can't see what would be Rush's motivation for lying about it? I dont think its an unrealistic number at all. It's not just unrealistic. It's technically not possible. Remember he also needs a practice partner. No one is gonna sit down 10+ hours per day for him. And if he uses ladder there's the waiting time. Also take into account replay watching and analysis time, unless you're saying he was just playing like a fool. And it's not like he completely went into retreat for those 5-6 months. Dude literally streamed almost everyday. What he did was all there for everyone to see. Offstream practice? There's not much time left. He still has to eat, sleep, and do other basic human stuff. On top of that, dude has a daughter. 12000 games are probably a figure for a much longer period, not that season only. Something got misconveyed for sure. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:16 Siz)Beggar wrote: pretty sure all the top foreirgners can agree eon isnt close to the top hes just all thats left Ha! I remember you, old bear. I can assure you the foreigners you are referencing to, I guess Mondragon and shit, would have been eventually outclassed by current ones. Easy peazy. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1522 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:56 TMNT wrote: It's not just unrealistic. It's technically not possible. Remember he also needs a practice partner. No one is gonna sit down 10+ hours per day for him. And if he uses ladder there's the waiting time. Also take into account replay watching and analysis time, unless you're saying he was just playing like a fool. And it's not like he completely went into retreat for those 5-6 months. Dude literally streamed almost everyday. What he did was all there for everyone to see. Offstream practice? There's not much time left. He still has to eat, sleep, and do other basic human stuff. On top of that, dude has a daughter. 12000 games are probably a figure for a much longer period, not that season only. Something got misconveyed for sure. I already did 100 games in a week with like 20 games a day recently on ladder. So 10k games would be about almost one year and a half, five days a week, I guess that would be normal training during kespa era, but this in 1/3 of the time, then that would average 60 games a day, 5 days a week, I guess it's possible if you play everyday but that's pretty hardcore especially when playing terran, but then this guy is always doing rush bunker so.. It could be possible. | ||
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iFU.spx
Russian Federation368 Posts
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ScarletAerie
40 Posts
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TMNT
2596 Posts
On May 27 2025 07:08 iFU.pauline wrote: I already did 100 games in a week with like 20 games a day recently on ladder. So 10k games would be about almost one year and a half, five days a week, I guess that would be normal training during kespa era, but this in 1/3 of the time, then that would average 60 games a day, 5 days a week, I guess it's possible if you play everyday but that's pretty hardcore especially when playing terran, but then this guy is always doing rush bunker so.. It could be possible. 60 games a day and 5 days a week for 6 months only gets you to 7800 games. 7 days a week get you to 10900 games. For 12000 games you need 66 per day, every day for 6 months. Rush himself has an average game duration of 15 min (ASL data), but you have to add 1 min between games, so it would take him almost 18 hours a day to complete that task. That means he has 6 hours left for basic human needs just to survive, and does nothing else. And when you look at his VODs during the ASL12 period, he streamed almost every day for 8 hours and definitely didn't do any of the above (majority of the stream is Proleague, where you play 1-3 games and watch the rest), while occasionally holding his 1year old daughter.... | ||
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