EPTAdmittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they? Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese.
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
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SiarX
100 Posts
Admittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they? Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1524 Posts
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Indepen
4 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote: Do you think that best foreign players - like Mihu, Dewalt, Bonyth - will ever be able to compete realistically with Korean pros? Qualify for ASL and so on? Admittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they? Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese. Nope, the foreigner just surrendered to the chinese. And even they cant compete with the koreans. It took two chinese player to cause an ruckus in the foreigner scene. Btw, Mihu is not a foreigner. | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
 eOnzerg and  Dewalt both attempted to qualify a few years ago -- eOn even went to Korea to train for a month before the qualifiers.It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. There is also a language barrier issue that results in a literal wall preventing foreigner's access to the higher-level analysis and concepts. I think we'd all love to see it happen, but its just so damn competitive.  JYJ, a former champion, wasnt even able to qualify last season...same happened with Zero/Queen in ASL 17. I mean, over the course of the ASL Season 12, Rush played 10,000 (ten. thousand.) practice games, and he still lost... | ||
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SiarX
100 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:31 tankgirl wrote: It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. Why it is not the same game, could you clarify? On May 27 2025 03:30 Indepen wrote: Nope, the foreigner just surrendered to the chinese. And even they cant compete with the koreans. It took two chinese player to cause an ruckus in the foreigner scene. Btw, Mihu is not a foreigner. But Chinese are foreigners, too... Mihu included. | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
Because in any fast-paced game, playing with 150-250ms latency will never be the same as playing with 15ms. Imagine you are preparing for a boxing match. And you must do all your training submerged in a pool of molasses. But when you step into the ring, you discover that the competition takes place on a different battleground entirely: in thin air. No matter how hard you trained, you will always be too slow, and every single one of your opponents has been training in this new, fast-paced environment for decades. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7861 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:31 tankgirl wrote: Last I heard players in China mainland were unable to connect to any Blizzard games due to a legal battle with Tencent (?) eOnzerg and Dewalt both attempted to qualify a few years ago -- eOn even went to Korea to train for a month before the qualifiers.It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. There is also a language barrier issue that results in a literal wall preventing foreigner's access to the higher-level analysis and concepts. I think we'd all love to see it happen, but its just so damn competitive. JYJ, a former champion, wasnt even able to qualify last season...same happened with Zero/Queen in ASL 17. I mean, over the course of the ASL Season 12, Rush played 10,000 (ten. thousand.) practice games, and he still lost... 10000 games? If he played every day for the whole half year, and if a game is 20 minutes in average, counting lobby time, he would have had to play 18 hours a day every single day to reach 10000 games. Seems a bit of an exaggeration really. Where do you get that number from? | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
On May 27 2025 04:07 Biff The Understudy wrote: 10000 games? If he played every day for the whole half year, and if a game is 20 minutes in average, counting lobby time, he would have had to play 18 hours a day every single day to reach 10000 games. Seems a bit of an exaggeration really. Where do you get that number from? I mis-remembered. Actually it was 12,000: + Show Spoiler [source (ASL youtube)] + Kobe (RIP) did 1000 freethrows every day for years. Some people just seem to have that kind of drive? I guess thats why human beings feel its acceptable to valorize them above all others, to reward them so ludicrously (perhaps justly...or unjustly?), and to call them "Champions". If it didnt take real dedication to win, I think perhaps sports wouldnt be as significant to us as a species? | ||
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Gescom
Canada3355 Posts
1000 free throws would take about 90 mins to 2 hours and is realistic and makes sense. | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
On May 27 2025 04:50 Gescom wrote: That's 167 literal days of playtime if we assume a 20 minute game with zero breaks in between. Physically impossible. Why be weird about things? 1000 free throws would take about 90 mins to 2 hours and is realistic and makes sense. I dont know if this is too offtopic now, but: The practice season in question took place during peak COVID, so perhaps that played a role in the amount of time available? In addition, there is some data that might change people's assumptions about average length of a game here: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games I dont have a magic crystal ball or the gods-eye view. The source for this "10,000 games" number I posted above. Maybe Rush lied about it, but I can't see what would be Rush's motivation for lying about it? I dont think its an unrealistic number at all. Id rather believe he did really work that hard. Poor Rush. Just look at his eyes =( ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yB0Kdpp.gif) | ||
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Siz)Beggar
United States339 Posts
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Siz)Beggar
United States339 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:31 tankgirl wrote: Last I heard players in China mainland were unable to connect to any Blizzard games due to a legal battle with Tencent (?) eOnzerg and Dewalt both attempted to qualify a few years ago -- eOn even went to Korea to train for a month before the qualifiers.It turns out that playing high-level koreans on TR12-TR16 is one thing...but playing TR24 / lan latency is just a different beast altogether, and the result is that most foreign players simply cant compete. It just isnt the same game. There is also a language barrier issue that results in a literal wall preventing foreigner's access to the higher-level analysis and concepts. I think we'd all love to see it happen, but its just so damn competitive. JYJ, a former champion, wasnt even able to qualify last season...same happened with Zero/Queen in ASL 17. I mean, over the course of the ASL Season 12, Rush played 10,000 (ten. thousand.) practice games, and he still lost... pretty sure all the top foreirgners can agree eon isnt close to the top hes just all thats left | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6524 Posts
Foreigners realistic aiming to compete are the koreans that play ladder regularly. But the players that qualify for ASL are usually people that played in the Kespa bubble for years. That to this day are still playing in that bubble. Then there is Soma who break all those walls. That we dont really know why top progamers welcomed him to practise with them etc. And obviously the crazy amount of talent that the kid has. Rather than bashing foreigners for not competing with those top koreans. Lets ask more practical questions why all those semipros and koreans that play hardcore are not reaching that level. Lack of talent ? Not being part of the pro circle and not getting the quality practise ? Look for example at the Chinese top players. They are training consistently with koreans but most of the time with lower tier skill koreans not really the top of the top to really commit a daily practise and get more refined. If chineses start to sponsoring games with top koreans vs their chinese players for a year im positive that we will see a Chinese having a real shot qualifying for ASL. But i doubt Top koreans will commit to do something like that having proleagues and their university leagues commitments. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6524 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:16 Siz)Beggar wrote: pretty sure all the top foreirgners can agree eon isnt close to the top hes just all thats left I dont even play this game for years but i promess i will shit on you with all thats left lol And tankgirl is proly talking about 2019 when i went to Korea to play KSL and ASL qualifiers. I have a funny story about that tho. I remember before going to Korea i used to play vs progamer Beast and he will always complain about latency when loss. While i was in Korea i will match him on ladder and still beat him all the time. Latency is just an another aspect that people wronly focus to excuse their misses. | ||
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TMNT
2608 Posts
On May 27 2025 05:46 tankgirl wrote: I dont have a magic crystal ball or the gods-eye view. The source for this "10,000 games" number I posted above. Maybe Rush lied about it, but I can't see what would be Rush's motivation for lying about it? I dont think its an unrealistic number at all. It's not just unrealistic. It's technically not possible. Remember he also needs a practice partner. No one is gonna sit down 10+ hours per day for him. And if he uses ladder there's the waiting time. Also take into account replay watching and analysis time, unless you're saying he was just playing like a fool. And it's not like he completely went into retreat for those 5-6 months. Dude literally streamed almost everyday. What he did was all there for everyone to see. Offstream practice? There's not much time left. He still has to eat, sleep, and do other basic human stuff. On top of that, dude has a daughter. 12000 games are probably a figure for a much longer period, not that season only. Something got misconveyed for sure. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1524 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:16 Siz)Beggar wrote: pretty sure all the top foreirgners can agree eon isnt close to the top hes just all thats left Ha! I remember you, old bear. I can assure you the foreigners you are referencing to, I guess Mondragon and shit, would have been eventually outclassed by current ones. Easy peazy. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1524 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:56 TMNT wrote: It's not just unrealistic. It's technically not possible. Remember he also needs a practice partner. No one is gonna sit down 10+ hours per day for him. And if he uses ladder there's the waiting time. Also take into account replay watching and analysis time, unless you're saying he was just playing like a fool. And it's not like he completely went into retreat for those 5-6 months. Dude literally streamed almost everyday. What he did was all there for everyone to see. Offstream practice? There's not much time left. He still has to eat, sleep, and do other basic human stuff. On top of that, dude has a daughter. 12000 games are probably a figure for a much longer period, not that season only. Something got misconveyed for sure. I already did 100 games in a week with like 20 games a day recently on ladder. So 10k games would be about almost one year and a half, five days a week, I guess that would be normal training during kespa era, but this in 1/3 of the time, then that would average 60 games a day, 5 days a week, I guess it's possible if you play everyday but that's pretty hardcore especially when playing terran, but then this guy is always doing rush bunker so.. It could be possible. | ||
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iFU.spx
Russian Federation368 Posts
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ScarletAerie
40 Posts
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TMNT
2608 Posts
On May 27 2025 07:08 iFU.pauline wrote: I already did 100 games in a week with like 20 games a day recently on ladder. So 10k games would be about almost one year and a half, five days a week, I guess that would be normal training during kespa era, but this in 1/3 of the time, then that would average 60 games a day, 5 days a week, I guess it's possible if you play everyday but that's pretty hardcore especially when playing terran, but then this guy is always doing rush bunker so.. It could be possible. 60 games a day and 5 days a week for 6 months only gets you to 7800 games. 7 days a week get you to 10900 games. For 12000 games you need 66 per day, every day for 6 months. Rush himself has an average game duration of 15 min (ASL data), but you have to add 1 min between games, so it would take him almost 18 hours a day to complete that task. That means he has 6 hours left for basic human needs just to survive, and does nothing else. And when you look at his VODs during the ASL12 period, he streamed almost every day for 8 hours and definitely didn't do any of the above (majority of the stream is Proleague, where you play 1-3 games and watch the rest), while occasionally holding his 1year old daughter.... | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5496 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote: Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Maybe you weren't around but foreigners used to have a much better chance, imo. Players like bonyth and dewalt are definitely respectable but back in the day we had some real legends. Mondragon who for whatever reason was always near the level of the koreans. Draco who literally was on a korean pro team, along with LX and PJ. Later NonY, ret, and IdrA. Even guys like G5, who's still around, would from time to time lay some smack down on a well known korean. Everyone knows he beat boxer on a stage, but i remember watching him beat GoRush who was on skt1, with fucking scouts. The player pool for non koreans used to be much stronger. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
You’ve got pros who’ve played for well over a decade. A lot of educational content is in Korean, the guys you need to regularly practice with to get to that level are also all Korean. I think it’s doable to get an ASL regular foreigner personally. But what I think it would take requires quite a bit of work. Rather than SC University content which generally involves getting people bad at the game to be quite decent, get a cadre of top pros, get a translator and make it your project to get a foreigner to qualify for ASL. You get that setup, I think the latent talent in the foreign scene could do it. I think that would be pretty interesting and hyped myself. Can we coach a foreigner to the ASL? Good content no? I think without something like that the gap is just too huge. It’s not a pure talent thing it’s just unbelievably hard to break into the top level in a scene where you’ve veterans who’ve got a decade+ on the clock, historically they benefitted from in-house practice and even now that it’s more open you need Korean language skills to grab what is more transparent . | ||
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G5
United States2895 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland547 Posts
To answer the original question, as someone mentioned above, I can easily picture Dewalt or some chineese get into RO32 of ASL. If u think about what kind of names are below top32, it should be obvious. However, for that, you need to not have in your tournament bracket the top32, and even then the chances would be around 50% I personally don't really enjoy traveling around the globe, as as comfy as I am, I have no drive to fly to Korea (not to mention tons of $, temporarily leaving job and family). | ||
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tankgirl
367 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote: Do you think that best foreign players - like Mihu, Dewalt, Bonyth - will ever be able to compete realistically with Korean pros? Qualify for ASL, be a challenge for top Korean pros, and so on? The closest anyone has come (twitch.tv) | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2241 Posts
LEVELS: FlaSh - just god Bonjwa - too good to be human... S class progamer - favorite to win asl A class progamer - can win asl if shit goes right A- class progamer - not winning asl, but decent run top4 top8 B+ class progamer - mb top 16? B class progamer - can not get out of group stage B- class progamer - he may or may not qualify to asl semi-pro - most likely not getting into asl super gosu amateur - needs a miracle + Show Spoiler + (ez bracket + good matchups kinda miracle) top foreigner (best chinese user) - why even try? + Show Spoiler + AND THIS MOTHER FUCKER IS 2700++ MMR... so... if i have to guess, i'd say foreigner can get into asl if his skill level increases to at least super gosu amateur, but said foreigner is not challenging koreans at all... getting into asl is not challenging anyone is just a proof of how gosu you really are... i would love to see dewalt on asl, but even if he qualifies it would take much more than a miracle to advance into brackets.. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
70 Posts
similar to: can foreigners be successful at sumo | ||
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spets1
55 Posts
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sas.Sziky
Hungary282 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7886 Posts
On May 27 2025 16:10 XenOsky wrote: theres levels to this shit in my opinion it goes like this from top to bottom... LEVELS: FlaSh - just god Bonjwa - too good to be human... S class progamer - favorite to win asl A class progamer - can win asl if shit goes right A- class progamer - not winning asl, but decent run top4 top8 B+ class progamer - mb top 16? B class progamer - can not get out of group stage B- class progamer - he may or may not qualify to asl semi-pro - most likely not getting into asl super gosu amateur - needs a miracle + Show Spoiler + (ez bracket + good matchups kinda miracle) top foreigner (best chinese user) - why even try? + Show Spoiler + AND THIS MOTHER FUCKER IS 2700++ MMR... so... if i have to guess, i'd say foreigner can get into asl if his skill level increases to at least super gosu amateur, but said foreigner is not challenging koreans at all... getting into asl is not challenging anyone is just a proof of how gosu you really are... i would love to see dewalt on asl, but even if he qualifies it would take much more than a miracle to advance into brackets.. Good post XenOsky !!  | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands774 Posts
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TMNT
2608 Posts
As of right now, getting into ASL is just a matter of bracket luck for some. Surely plenty of foreigners, mainly Chinese, can beat Sea. But challenging them, as in getting to their overall level, even Ro24 level. I don't think so. Because as they age, you age too, and they get to keep playing as it is their job, but you don't. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On May 27 2025 16:10 XenOsky wrote: theres levels to this shit in my opinion it goes like this from top to bottom... LEVELS: FlaSh - just god Bonjwa - too good to be human... S class progamer - favorite to win asl A class progamer - can win asl if shit goes right A- class progamer - not winning asl, but decent run top4 top8 B+ class progamer - mb top 16? B class progamer - can not get out of group stage B- class progamer - he may or may not qualify to asl semi-pro - most likely not getting into asl super gosu amateur - needs a miracle + Show Spoiler + (ez bracket + good matchups kinda miracle) top foreigner (best chinese user) - why even try? + Show Spoiler + AND THIS MOTHER FUCKER IS 2700++ MMR... so... if i have to guess, i'd say foreigner can get into asl if his skill level increases to at least super gosu amateur, but said foreigner is not challenging koreans at all... getting into asl is not challenging anyone is just a proof of how gosu you really are... i would love to see dewalt on asl, but even if he qualifies it would take much more than a miracle to advance into brackets.. May add that between each bracket, the likely outcome is a 3-1 or 4-1. So Flash in his prime may ez 9-1 an A tier (hero), 27-1 b-tier (scan?), 81-1 the best foreigner/amateur. I guess back then some foreigners could take a few games off the best koreans, androide, PJ did... but the quality of foreigners these days arent close to pre 2010 top foreigners, some who had the talent to be semi pro, or even pre 2004, some B tier pros (Elky prime, Leg maybe, I dont count Grrr lol) | ||
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Q~Bert
United States663 Posts
On May 27 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote: Yesterday I had a game against Korean on ladder. The starting turn rate was TR20 low, but it was somewhat slow (thank you Blizzard for not implementing starting turn rates correctly), so I changed it to high latency, expecting it to go to TR24 high lat. It changed to TR24 high, however, the angry Korean switched it to low latency, and so it stayed at TR 24 low and we continued to play the game like that. In that somewhat slower game I could do everything I wanted. After the game I thought: maybe this is how the best players feel like. Able to do anything, rather than trying to just catch up to the game. My message is, I may have my own strong and unique sides, but I am too slow. Why are people slow? That's for another debate. To answer the original question, as someone mentioned above, I can easily picture Dewalt or some chineese get into RO32 of ASL. If u think about what kind of names are below top32, it should be obvious. However, for that, you need to not have in your tournament bracket the top32, and even then the chances would be around 50% I personally don't really enjoy traveling around the globe, as as comfy as I am, I have no drive to fly to Korea (not to mention tons of $, temporarily leaving job and family). Funny you mention you're slow. Your APM is obviously below average and even when I watched your stream it does appear that you move sluggish and don't transition screens quickly enough. Yet, when playing vs you - your scouting probe is invincible, you flawlessly micro single/small groups of units in the early game and next thing I know it's 11:00 minute and you have 140 psi 2-1 upgrades with a 3rd base coming online. | ||
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jindi5
China165 Posts
On May 27 2025 06:19 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is not actually that difficult to answer. Foreigners challenging koreans. Yes they can. But what koreans are we talking about ? The top of the top ? the same ones that even the koreans that are tiers lowers cant challenge despite playing hardcore for years ? Foreigners realistic aiming to compete are the koreans that play ladder regularly. But the players that qualify for ASL are usually people that played in the Kespa bubble for years. That to this day are still playing in that bubble. Then there is Soma who break all those walls. That we dont really know why top progamers welcomed him to practise with them etc. And obviously the crazy amount of talent that the kid has. Rather than bashing foreigners for not competing with those top koreans. Lets ask more practical questions why all those semipros and koreans that play hardcore are not reaching that level. Lack of talent ? Not being part of the pro circle and not getting the quality practise ? Look for example at the Chinese top players. They are training consistently with koreans but most of the time with lower tier skill koreans not really the top of the top to really commit a daily practise and get more refined. If chineses start to sponsoring games with top koreans vs their chinese players for a year im positive that we will see a Chinese having a real shot qualifying for ASL. But i doubt Top koreans will commit to do something like that having proleagues and their university leagues commitments. We have tried many times, but the results have all been tragic. So we no longer waste money so unrealistically.  2018 Hangzhou StarCraft CarnivalStarCraft Master ShanghaiSanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/4Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/3Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/2Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/1StarClash 230919StarClash 230604There are still too many events that have not been recorded on the liquipedia Chinese sponsors even once invited South Korean players Speed and SsaL to Nanjing, China, to conduct systematic training for Chinese players. Players XiaoXiaoMa and DuGu were all beneficiaries. However, it still works effectively. | ||
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jindi5
China165 Posts
On February 3rd, 2024, Zhanhun advanced to the final round of group D in ASL 17 qualifier day 1, beating IrOn and Sea along the way. It set a new record, and was the highest achievement in ASL among all non-Korean players in history. ASL Season 17: Online Qualifier Day 1 -Group D AfreecaTV/StarCraft League Remastered/17/Qualifiers/Online 1As China's top players grow older, some estimate that there will only be a chance for them to qualify for the ASL main event in the next 1-2 years. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3351 Posts
On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote: Do you think that best foreign players - like Mihu, Dewalt, Bonyth - will ever be able to compete realistically with Korean pros? Qualify for ASL, be a challenge for top Korean pros, and so on? Admittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they?Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese. I know you constantly make threads with 0 research like you re on reddit but please at least refrain from blatantly stupid statements... Just look at WCG history. The foreign scene years (decades really) ago was extremely dynamic and varied with a lot of really solid players and playstyles. Beating korean pros was a major achievement but it did happen. And we re not talking beating b teamers, we re talking wins over osl/msl champions or finalists | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway651 Posts
On May 27 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote: Yesterday I had a game against Korean on ladder. The starting turn rate was TR20 low, but it was somewhat slow (thank you Blizzard for not implementing starting turn rates correctly), so I changed it to high latency, expecting it to go to TR24 high lat. It changed to TR24 high, however, the angry Korean switched it to low latency, and so it stayed at TR 24 low and we continued to play the game like that. In that somewhat slower game I could do everything I wanted. After the game I thought: maybe this is how the best players feel like. Able to do anything, rather than trying to just catch up to the game. My message is, I may have my own strong and unique sides, but I am too slow. Why are people slow? That's for another debate. To answer the original question, as someone mentioned above, I can easily picture Dewalt or some chineese get into RO32 of ASL. If u think about what kind of names are below top32, it should be obvious. However, for that, you need to not have in your tournament bracket the top32, and even then the chances would be around 50% I personally don't really enjoy traveling around the globe, as as comfy as I am, I have no drive to fly to Korea (not to mention tons of $, temporarily leaving job and family). Good points. The Korean team houses wanted fast players rather than smart players, since it’s easier to train strategy than speed. Watching the old Bisu FPVODS I literally knew that I would NEVER be that good. If he had maintained his speed, I’m almost convinced he’d win ASL today. But the strategic insights to bw doesn’t seem impossible to understand. Not easy by any means, but not out of reach. So with that in mind, I really don’t think it would be impossible for foreigners to compete let alone win an asl today, but the interest simply isn’t there to dedicate your entire life to a 30 year old video game. | ||
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Piste
6172 Posts
And travelling is taxing. It's hard to perform your best after a travel. | ||
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iopq
United States892 Posts
On May 27 2025 17:25 Soft_General_5023 wrote: you have to speak korean and live in korea i guess, just to have a chance to be accepted to play proleagues and sponmatches, only that way you can get skill to compete vs top. similar to: can foreigners be successful at sumo The best rikishi right now is literally from Mongolia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hōshōryū_Tomokatsu | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands774 Posts
On May 28 2025 01:02 iopq wrote: The best rikishi right now is literally from Mongolia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hōshōryū_Tomokatsu Mongolia already had a strong wrestling environment. Its a national sport of sorts. The best Sumo wrestlers have been from Mongolia for a while now. They also have much better training that's more modern than Japanese Sumo training is in the present day. Much less bound by traditionalism and much more progressive. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 28 2025 05:52 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Mongolia already had a strong wrestling environment. Its a national sport of sorts. The best Sumo wrestlers have been from Mongolia for a while now. They also have much better training that's more modern than Japanese Sumo training is in the present day. Much less bound by traditionalism and much more progressive. I didn’t have learning a bit about Mongolians being good at sumo wrestling on my bingo card for the day, but I’m happy I did | ||
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Grouhh
56 Posts
Sure, foreign wrestlers have been dominating the sport for decades, but they live in Japan, and train 24/7 in a Japanese sumo stable. This is a requirement to be allowed to compete in Japanese pro sumo. They join at a young age, and endure crazy training for years. Their situation is very similar to pros in Korean houses back in the day. "Real" foreign wrestlers, however, who take part in international sumo championships, fight in a plastic ring, and wear stuff under their belt, have no access whatsoever to Japanese wrestlers and tournaments. Completely separate worlds. They also hardly ever practice sumo as a full time job. Their situation is very similar to BW foreign scene. And, as you can imagine, the skill gap between international sumo and Japanese pro sumo is abysmal, maybe even worse than in BW. I don't see how you could become as good as the champions if you don't train nearly as much, play with slightly different rules, and don't have access to the strongest opposition on a regular basis. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway651 Posts
I think what you say is 100% true back in the KESPA days where you didn’t have streamers publicly displaying build orders and strategies in first person, like they do now. In my opinion (which really isn’t worth much tbh) BW mechanics is so ridiculously difficult, so if you have optimal speed and mechanics (around Bisu peak levels) you can get away with a lot. | ||
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vTv.Marine
Canada144 Posts
On May 27 2025 09:00 jimminy_kriket wrote: No Maybe you weren't around but foreigners used to have a much better chance, imo. Players like bonyth and dewalt are definitely respectable but back in the day we had some real legends. Mondragon who for whatever reason was always near the level of the koreans. Draco who literally was on a korean pro team, along with LX and PJ. Later NonY, ret, and IdrA. Even guys like G5, who's still around, would from time to time lay some smack down on a well known korean. Everyone knows he beat boxer on a stage, but i remember watching him beat GoRush who was on skt1, with fucking scouts. The player pool for non koreans used to be much stronger. Pretty much this. I would’ve given more of a chance to guys back in the day like Mondragon, Sen, Testie, Nony, Draco, Idra, etc. Testie actually had an offer early on to join a Korean progaming team (Mondragon did too if I remember correctly) but they both turned it down. It was around the time Draco went to Korea in 2006. As a matter of fact, I remember Testie giving Bisu a hard time at that Blizzard tournament in 2007, only to find out near the end of the game that he had forgotten Dragoon range — LOL. Good old times. But yeah, it’s kind of like asking an amateur Muay Thai fighter who’s been training for 5–10 years to go fight Saenchai or Buakaw. Jean-Charles Skarbowsky is a good example. He was at that time by far the best Muay Thai foreigner fighter and he fought Buakaew at Lumpinee and it wasnt even close despite Jean-Charles being a beast. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7796 Posts
Hypothetically those things are possible, just like hypothetically foreigners might one day pose a challenge to Korean pros… but I’m not expecting a new era of TvP ghost usage and until it happens it’s just theory-crafting. Both questions seem interesting at first glance but… | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway651 Posts
On May 28 2025 22:55 Vasoline73 wrote: This question is similar to questions like, “why isn’t ghost used more often in TvP?” or, “why don’t we see more DA usage in late game PvZ?” Hypothetically those things are possible, just like hypothetically foreigners might one day pose a challenge to Korean pros… but I’m not expecting a new era of TvP ghost usage and until it happens it’s just theory-crafting. Both questions seem interesting at first glance but… Yup, pretty much. Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. Nevertheless an interesting topic to discuss. Edit: What if Serral really applied himself to BW for a year? What chances would you give him? It might actually happen, since SC2 is pretty much going down the shitter at this point. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1524 Posts
On May 28 2025 21:19 vTv.Marine wrote: Pretty much this. I would’ve given more of a chance to guys back in the day like Mondragon, Sen, Testie, Nony, Draco, Idra, etc. Testie actually had an offer early on to join a Korean progaming team (Mondragon did too if I remember correctly) but they both turned it down. It was around the time Draco went to Korea in 2006. As a matter of fact, I remember Testie giving Bisu a hard time at that Blizzard tournament in 2007, only to find out near the end of the game that he had forgotten Dragoon range — LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iMy3y00WJY Good old times. But yeah, it’s kind of like asking an amateur Muay Thai fighter who’s been training for 5–10 years to go fight Saenchai or Buakaw. Jean-Charles Skarbowsky is a good example. He was at that time by far the best Muay Thai foreigner fighter and he fought Buakaew at Lumpinee and it wasnt even close despite Jean-Charles being a beast. As you go back in time, foreigners had more chance to succeed since the pro scene in korea and game meta were still in its early age. As time passes the gap got wider because korean players evolved much faster. It has nothing to do with the foreign scene being less good. In fact, our foreigners have never been so strong, all these guys you mentioned were playing the game in times protoss were discovering fast expand vs zerg come on. | ||
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vTv.Marine
Canada144 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:17 iFU.pauline wrote: As you go back in time, foreigners had more chance to succeed since the pro scene in korea and game meta were still in its early age. As time passes the gap got wider because korean players evolved much faster. It has nothing to do with the foreign scene being less good. In fact, our foreigners have never been so strong, all these guys you mentioned were playing the game in times protoss were discovering fast expand vs zerg come on. I mean, I agree with everything you said, lol. And back then, the Koreans were given a salary and a team house to play and practice 12+ hours a day. The first time I saw that in e-sports in North America was when Jason Lake bought Complexity and hired players, paying them back in 2004. The whole Counter-Strike scene in NA were shitting on them because people didnt understand that concept. Also, we didn’t have the resources they had in Korea. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:05 Timebon3s wrote: Yup, pretty much. Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. Nevertheless an interesting topic to discuss. Edit: What if Serral really applied himself to BW for a year? What chances would you give him? It might actually happen, since SC2 is pretty much going down the shitter at this point. If he’s doing it on his own, not much. If he’s being actively coached and helped, has consistent practice partners, maybe he does something. The mechanical skill is clearly there, the brain is there. But you have to circumvent and speed up the learning of the idiosyncrasies, if you don’t, a huge amount of that year is just figuring out all that knowledge and tricks your competition already know. It’s not in grinding to get to a certain level. I played WC3 to a not horrific standard in and around release for a few years. I had no aspirations of being high level coming back, but even for me I found I spent a hell of a lot of time just finding and learning the info, the meta, the optimisations that occurred in the preceding 15 years etc. Initially, a lot more than just playing the game. So ofc when I am just grinding games having that more knowledge, my mechanics, or that kind of instinctual knowledge of ‘here’s two armies, scan them, is this a good fight to take?’ were lacking. I’m 100% convinced if all parties were motivated, and you had a real handful of top pros on board to spread the load, translators you probably could do a StarCraft University project to get someone like Serral to at least qualify for ASL. As good as top BW foreigners are at the game, your best candidate probably is somebody like Serral. His mechanics are ridiculous, he’s a long, long span of dealing with the demands of being an actual progamer. SC2 isn’t quite as demanding, but given the structures were in place. look how quickly Kespa players got really, really fucking good. I think the reverse is absolutely possible, but I think it really needs to be a project that multiple people commit to. And maybe it’s not a year, maybe it’s a bit longer. Different game sure but Serral, Reynor, Clem are amongst the best RTS players to have ever lived. If all those factors lined up, they could pull off an ASL qualification at the least. They’ll not beat Flash anytime soon, but the competition to qualify for the ASL isn’t Flash, it’s some very, very good BW players. Some legit pros, some pros but never really did much, and some very gifted amateur players. Without wishing to ignite an SC2 versus BW debate, I think (my) SC2 GOAT, who’s younger than a lot of the competition, with a dedicated fast track training regime could at least get to ASL Ro24 level. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
You can argue with hypotheticals and skill levels (I don't seen any ridiculous skill with current SC2 pros, and even back then during its most competitive era, there wasn't much showcasing) We have had hundreds of foreigners that trained much harder than the current crop of SC2 pros pre 2010, and nobody even came close to that skill level. The closest may had been PJ or Idra, and they were barely even B-teamers. That is a fact. We have had dozens of foreigners even try out courage tournament, and nobody won it, and that would be even below b-teamer. If serral/clem/reynor would be in a korean team, they wouldn't even be skilled enough to wash their dishes. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 29 2025 03:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: I am sorry, but this constant glazing of white dudes that dominate a SC2 era which is by far the lowest competitive wise is ridiculous. Serral may challenge BSL if he trained for a year, but that's it. It is clear that Serral or whoever wouldn't even win a big title when Kespa team houses were still around in SC2 and they all trained 12 hours a day. You can argue with hypotheticals and skill levels (I don't seen any ridiculous skill with current SC2 pros, and even back then during its most competitive era, there wasn't much showcasing) We have had hundreds of foreigners that trained much harder than the current crop of SC2 pros pre 2010, and nobody even came close to that skill level. The closest may had been PJ or Idra, and they were barely even B-teamers. That is a fact. We have had dozens of foreigners even try out courage tournament, and nobody won it, and that would be even below b-teamer. If serral/clem/reynor would be in a korean team, they wouldn't even be skilled enough to wash their dishes. Ludicrous | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway651 Posts
Nobody said Serral would dominate the scene, it was just a question of how good he could get. So I don’t know where you get «constant glazing of white dudes» from. Sir, do you have some issues you need resolved? Thanks for your input Wombat  Artosis has taken games off of progamers in bw, and he lost pretty hard against Scarlett, so it’s not entirely impossible that Serral could at least qualify for ASL with enough time and practice. One of the key differences now and during KESPA era is the wast amount of knowledge available after people started streaming, so there’s that.. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6524 Posts
On May 29 2025 05:49 Timebon3s wrote: This entire thread is literally people saying Koreans are way better than everyone else. Nobody said Serral would dominate the scene, it was just a question of how good he could get. So I don’t know where you get «constant glazing of white dudes» from. Sir, do you have some issues you need resolved? Thanks for your input Wombat Artosis has taken games off of progamers in bw, and he lost pretty hard against Scarlett, so it’s not entirely impossible that Serral could at least qualify for ASL with enough time and practice. One of the key differences now and during KESPA era is the wast amount of knowledge available after people started streaming, so there’s that.. I lack SC2 knowledge. Would you say Serral is way stronger mechanically than Soo ? Im asking that question cuz Soo has comeback to BW but i have the feeling those SC2 mechanics not necessarily transfered to BW. Or atleast didnt show an impact i would say. (even if Soo had a BW background and a decent BW career before SC2). So Basically Serral would require to start from nothing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 29 2025 05:57 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I lack SC2 knowledge. Would you say Serral is way stronger mechanically than Soo ? Im asking that question cuz Soo has comeback to BW but i have the feeling those SC2 mechanics not necessarily transfered to BW. Or atleast didnt show an impact i would say. (even if Soo had a BW background and a decent BW career before SC2). So Basically Serral would require to start from nothing. In SC2 he was, soO was a monster, Serral’s lategame with technical armies, on another level. Peak soO, if he’s just macroing and pumping out midgame armies, at his best, possibly better than anyone. But Serral would be close to his main strength, soO wasn’t really close when it came to Serral’s strengths I’m trying to think of a BW equivalent to how soO played SC2, it’s maybe Best. Crazy midgame macro, if he can roll you, he often would. If not, maybe that’s gonna be a tough game for him. A stylistic Serral equivalent? I really don’t know. It’s probably Flash. Not comparing the two levels, but they’re both at worst 8/10, generally 9/10 thru 10/10 at basically every element of the game. And the smartest players going. Nobody else has that package. Someone might beat Flash in a specific area if we were to do Top Trumps. He wins every other part of the card. Serral’s pretty similar to those not familiar with SC2. He’s not just rounded, and balanced, he beats most in the scene in every category. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1524 Posts
So I gave up and went back to brood war where I could feel special lol. It was hilarious though seeing bronze terran microing your like they are fucking Flash haha. | ||
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castleeMg
Canada759 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 29 2025 05:49 Timebon3s wrote: This entire thread is literally people saying Koreans are way better than everyone else. Nobody said Serral would dominate the scene, it was just a question of how good he could get. So I don’t know where you get «constant glazing of white dudes» from. Sir, do you have some issues you need resolved? Thanks for your input Wombat Artosis has taken games off of progamers in bw, and he lost pretty hard against Scarlett, so it’s not entirely impossible that Serral could at least qualify for ASL with enough time and practice. One of the key differences now and during KESPA era is the wast amount of knowledge available after people started streaming, so there’s that.. If I was a rich man, which is a problem as I am not for this hypothetical. Assuming they’re actually interested and motivated, I think it’s borderline inconceivable that, with an actual coaching setup you couldn’t get Serral, or Clem, or Reynor to an ASL after a bit. The talent is obviously there, Clem was doing business after like a week versus people who’d been playing nothing but Stormgate. Serral streamed AoE4 for like a week to two and he was already up there on ladder. Give those guys a year+ with a coaching team, come on they’re making an ASL. Getting to a Ro8 or beyond, unless they’re actually prodigious at BW rather than ‘very good RTS player playing a new game’, I think probably takes a lot longer. You’re competing against programing legends with years of experience. No diss whatsoever, I miss his occasional casting these days, and he’s clearly fucking good. But really? In a hypothetical. Which this obviously is. Not just the greatest foreigner but arguably the greatest in SC2 history, with a coaching team couldn’t get to Scan’s level? | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 29 2025 07:15 CicadaSC wrote: "ever" means all of time, correct? well we already had that with IdrA... i heard when he was in estro he was regularly beating all the top koreans it was only when he joined cj did he have so struggles as a b teamer Never did it in a tournament setting. Even being a practice monster in a pro setup is in and of itself impressive, he didn’t push on though | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6524 Posts
On May 29 2025 06:28 WombaT wrote: In SC2 he was, soO was a monster, Serral’s lategame with technical armies, on another level. Peak soO, if he’s just macroing and pumping out midgame armies, at his best, possibly better than anyone. But Serral would be close to his main strength, soO wasn’t really close when it came to Serral’s strengths I’m trying to think of a BW equivalent to how soO played SC2, it’s maybe Best. Crazy midgame macro, if he can roll you, he often would. If not, maybe that’s gonna be a tough game for him. A stylistic Serral equivalent? I really don’t know. It’s probably Flash. Not comparing the two levels, but they’re both at worst 8/10, generally 9/10 thru 10/10 at basically every element of the game. And the smartest players going. Nobody else has that package. Someone might beat Flash in a specific area if we were to do Top Trumps. He wins every other part of the card. Serral’s pretty similar to those not familiar with SC2. He’s not just rounded, and balanced, he beats most in the scene in every category. This is interesting. Honestly i wasnt expecting you to compare Serral to FlaSh cuz he is more a build order optimizer. And i think Serral shines a lot with Multitasking while FlaSh is more a wrecking ball with a remote control. Overall like u said FlaSh is very solid in every area tho. And serral i would agree with that. But if he was to pick BW would be interesting what race he picks. Scarlett for example picked Protoss and i found She could use her multitask a lot while using shuttles and multitasking making units etc. Now i wonder If Serral is not a good fit for zerg then. And would need The Protoss or Terran aproach to really exploit his mechanics. Need to remember that zerg muta micro is by himself a thing to master and not easy by any means. Every matchup. Requires different muta micro. Sometimes attacking buildings or workers. Marines. Scourge all of them requires different techniques. I wonder if Terran would be a better fit to Serral tbh. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On May 29 2025 07:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: This is interesting. Honestly i wasnt expecting you to compare Serral to FlaSh cuz he is more a build order optimizer. And i think Serral shines a lot with Multitasking while FlaSh is more a wrecking ball with a remote control. Overall like u said FlaSh is very solid in every area tho. And serral i would agree with that. But if he was to pick BW would be interesting what race he picks. Scarlett for example picked Protoss and i found She could use her multitask a lot while using shuttles and multitasking making units etc. Now i wonder If Serral is not a good fit for zerg then. And would need The Protoss or Terran aproach to really exploit his mechanics. Need to remember that zerg muta micro is by himself a thing to master and not easy by any means. Every matchup. Requires different muta micro. Sometimes attacking buildings or workers. Marines. Scourge all of them requires different techniques. I wonder if Terran would be a better fit to Serral tbh. Yeah those kind of questions are super interesting. Hopefully we’ll see them answered sometime! I’m | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands774 Posts
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