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On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote:
Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner.
Maybe you weren't around but foreigners used to have a much better chance, imo. Players like bonyth and dewalt are definitely respectable but back in the day we had some real legends. Mondragon who for whatever reason was always near the level of the koreans. Draco who literally was on a korean pro team, along with LX and PJ. Later NonY, ret, and IdrA. Even guys like G5, who's still around, would from time to time lay some smack down on a well known korean. Everyone knows he beat boxer on a stage, but i remember watching him beat GoRush who was on skt1, with fucking scouts.
The player pool for non koreans used to be much stronger.
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Northern Ireland26510 Posts
Much less a factor in SC2 but there’s a huge gap to cover
You’ve got pros who’ve played for well over a decade. A lot of educational content is in Korean, the guys you need to regularly practice with to get to that level are also all Korean.
I think it’s doable to get an ASL regular foreigner personally.
But what I think it would take requires quite a bit of work.
Rather than SC University content which generally involves getting people bad at the game to be quite decent, get a cadre of top pros, get a translator and make it your project to get a foreigner to qualify for ASL.
You get that setup, I think the latent talent in the foreign scene could do it.
I think that would be pretty interesting and hyped myself. Can we coach a foreigner to the ASL? Good content no?
I think without something like that the gap is just too huge. It’s not a pure talent thing it’s just unbelievably hard to break into the top level in a scene where you’ve veterans who’ve got a decade+ on the clock, historically they benefitted from in-house practice and even now that it’s more open you need Korean language skills to grab what is more transparent .
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Most likely, no foreigner will truly compete with the top Koreans. It's likely that someone gets through ASL qualifiers on a lucky run. Most likely a Chinese player that plays with some risk. Beyond that though, probably not. The top Koreans are just far better than any foreigner. You'll see foreigners take games here and there but making a serious ASL run or something like that... I just dont see it happening. The understanding of the game down to the smallest of things truly separates them from the rest. They constantly play against the best, they are used to high stakes scenarios, and they are the ones that truly develop the modern meta that everyone else tries to emulate. I give absolute props to anyone that truly tries to compete at the highest level of SC:BW though, because it's probably the hardest thing in gaming to do. Anyone going after that, even if they fail, should be admired for their effort. I hope I'm wrong and some foreigner starts bashing everyone but I just don't see it happening.
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Yesterday I had a game against Korean on ladder. The starting turn rate was TR20 low, but it was somewhat slow (thank you Blizzard for not implementing starting turn rates correctly), so I changed it to high latency, expecting it to go to TR24 high lat. It changed to TR24 high, however, the angry Korean switched it to low latency, and so it stayed at TR 24 low and we continued to play the game like that. In that somewhat slower game I could do everything I wanted. After the game I thought: maybe this is how the best players feel like. Able to do anything, rather than trying to just catch up to the game. My message is, I may have my own strong and unique sides, but I am too slow. Why are people slow? That's for another debate.
To answer the original question, as someone mentioned above, I can easily picture Dewalt or some chineese get into RO32 of ASL. If u think about what kind of names are below top32, it should be obvious. However, for that, you need to not have in your tournament bracket the top32, and even then the chances would be around 50%
I personally don't really enjoy traveling around the globe, as as comfy as I am, I have no drive to fly to Korea (not to mention tons of $, temporarily leaving job and family).
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On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote:
Do you think that best foreign players - like Mihu, Dewalt, Bonyth - will ever be able to compete realistically with Korean pros? Qualify for ASL, be a challenge for top Korean pros, and so on?
The closest anyone has come (twitch.tv)
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theres levels to this shit in my opinion it goes like this from top to bottom...
LEVELS:
FlaSh - just god
Bonjwa - too good to be human...
S class progamer - favorite to win asl
A class progamer - can win asl if shit goes right
A- class progamer - not winning asl, but decent run top4 top8
B+ class progamer - mb top 16?
B class progamer - can not get out of group stage
B- class progamer - he may or may not qualify to asl
semi-pro - most likely not getting into asl
super gosu amateur - needs a miracle + Show Spoiler +(ez bracket + good matchups kinda miracle)
top foreigner (best chinese user) - why even try? + Show Spoiler +AND THIS MOTHER FUCKER IS 2700++ MMR...
so... if i have to guess, i'd say foreigner can get into asl if his skill level increases to at least super gosu amateur, but said foreigner is not challenging koreans at all...
getting into asl is not challenging anyone is just a proof of how gosu you really are... i would love to see dewalt on asl, but even if he qualifies it would take much more than a miracle to advance into brackets..
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you have to speak korean and live in korea i guess, just to have a chance to be accepted to play proleagues and sponmatches, only that way you can get skill to compete vs top.
similar to: can foreigners be successful at sumo
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Do foreigners try to qualify every asl?
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XiaoShuai almost did it. Mihu,Dewalt also has a good chance i am sure with some lucky
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On May 27 2025 16:10 XenOsky wrote:theres levels to this shit in my opinion it goes like this from top to bottom... LEVELS: FlaSh - just god Bonjwa - too good to be human... S class progamer - favorite to win asl A class progamer - can win asl if shit goes right A- class progamer - not winning asl, but decent run top4 top8 B+ class progamer - mb top 16? B class progamer - can not get out of group stage B- class progamer - he may or may not qualify to asl semi-pro - most likely not getting into asl super gosu amateur - needs a miracle + Show Spoiler +(ez bracket + good matchups kinda miracle)
top foreigner (best chinese user) - why even try? + Show Spoiler +AND THIS MOTHER FUCKER IS 2700++ MMR... so... if i have to guess, i'd say foreigner can get into asl if his skill level increases to at least super gosu amateur, but said foreigner is not challenging koreans at all... getting into asl is not challenging anyone is just a proof of how gosu you really are... i would love to see dewalt on asl, but even if he qualifies it would take much more than a miracle to advance into brackets..
Good post XenOsky !! 
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xiaoshuai is closest at this point in time. he has strong early games that carry him. but mid and late game he falls apart even against the likes of HBQ or Airfou. neither of these two will qualify for ASL ever at this rate. actually hbq might qualify next season.
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I mean, it's two different questions isn't it? Challenging Koreans and getting into ASL.
As of right now, getting into ASL is just a matter of bracket luck for some. Surely plenty of foreigners, mainly Chinese, can beat Sea.
But challenging them, as in getting to their overall level, even Ro24 level. I don't think so. Because as they age, you age too, and they get to keep playing as it is their job, but you don't.
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On May 27 2025 16:10 XenOsky wrote:theres levels to this shit in my opinion it goes like this from top to bottom... LEVELS: FlaSh - just god Bonjwa - too good to be human... S class progamer - favorite to win asl A class progamer - can win asl if shit goes right A- class progamer - not winning asl, but decent run top4 top8 B+ class progamer - mb top 16? B class progamer - can not get out of group stage B- class progamer - he may or may not qualify to asl semi-pro - most likely not getting into asl super gosu amateur - needs a miracle + Show Spoiler +(ez bracket + good matchups kinda miracle)
top foreigner (best chinese user) - why even try? + Show Spoiler +AND THIS MOTHER FUCKER IS 2700++ MMR... so... if i have to guess, i'd say foreigner can get into asl if his skill level increases to at least super gosu amateur, but said foreigner is not challenging koreans at all... getting into asl is not challenging anyone is just a proof of how gosu you really are... i would love to see dewalt on asl, but even if he qualifies it would take much more than a miracle to advance into brackets..
May add that between each bracket, the likely outcome is a 3-1 or 4-1. So Flash in his prime may ez 9-1 an A tier (hero), 27-1 b-tier (scan?), 81-1 the best foreigner/amateur. I guess back then some foreigners could take a few games off the best koreans, androide, PJ did... but the quality of foreigners these days arent close to pre 2010 top foreigners, some who had the talent to be semi pro, or even pre 2004, some B tier pros (Elky prime, Leg maybe, I dont count Grrr lol)
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On May 27 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Yesterday I had a game against Korean on ladder. The starting turn rate was TR20 low, but it was somewhat slow (thank you Blizzard for not implementing starting turn rates correctly), so I changed it to high latency, expecting it to go to TR24 high lat. It changed to TR24 high, however, the angry Korean switched it to low latency, and so it stayed at TR 24 low and we continued to play the game like that. In that somewhat slower game I could do everything I wanted. After the game I thought: maybe this is how the best players feel like. Able to do anything, rather than trying to just catch up to the game. My message is, I may have my own strong and unique sides, but I am too slow. Why are people slow? That's for another debate.
To answer the original question, as someone mentioned above, I can easily picture Dewalt or some chineese get into RO32 of ASL. If u think about what kind of names are below top32, it should be obvious. However, for that, you need to not have in your tournament bracket the top32, and even then the chances would be around 50%
I personally don't really enjoy traveling around the globe, as as comfy as I am, I have no drive to fly to Korea (not to mention tons of $, temporarily leaving job and family).
Funny you mention you're slow. Your APM is obviously below average and even when I watched your stream it does appear that you move sluggish and don't transition screens quickly enough. Yet, when playing vs you - your scouting probe is invincible, you flawlessly micro single/small groups of units in the early game and next thing I know it's 11:00 minute and you have 140 psi 2-1 upgrades with a 3rd base coming online.
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This should be the closest a foreign player has come to the ASL main event
On February 3rd, 2024, Zhanhun advanced to the final round of group D in ASL 17 qualifier day 1, beating IrOn and Sea along the way. It set a new record, and was the highest achievement in ASL among all non-Korean players in history.
ASL Season 17: Online Qualifier Day 1 -Group D
 AfreecaTV/StarCraft League Remastered/17/Qualifiers/Online 1
As China's top players grow older, some estimate that there will only be a chance for them to qualify for the ASL main event in the next 1-2 years.
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On May 27 2025 03:16 SiarX wrote:
Do you think that best foreign players - like Mihu, Dewalt, Bonyth - will ever be able to compete realistically with Korean pros? Qualify for ASL, be a challenge for top Korean pros, and so on?
Admittedly foreigners lack any base compared to Korean players. But still, they have improved a lot in recent years, have not they?Years ago foreign scene was a total a joke, any serious Korean player would walk over any foreigner. Nowadays it is not so true, especially in case of Chinese.
I know you constantly make threads with 0 research like you re on reddit but please at least refrain from blatantly stupid statements...
Just look at WCG history. The foreign scene years (decades really) ago was extremely dynamic and varied with a lot of really solid players and playstyles.
Beating korean pros was a major achievement but it did happen.
And we re not talking beating b teamers, we re talking wins over osl/msl champions or finalists
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On May 27 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Yesterday I had a game against Korean on ladder. The starting turn rate was TR20 low, but it was somewhat slow (thank you Blizzard for not implementing starting turn rates correctly), so I changed it to high latency, expecting it to go to TR24 high lat. It changed to TR24 high, however, the angry Korean switched it to low latency, and so it stayed at TR 24 low and we continued to play the game like that. In that somewhat slower game I could do everything I wanted. After the game I thought: maybe this is how the best players feel like. Able to do anything, rather than trying to just catch up to the game. My message is, I may have my own strong and unique sides, but I am too slow. Why are people slow? That's for another debate.
To answer the original question, as someone mentioned above, I can easily picture Dewalt or some chineese get into RO32 of ASL. If u think about what kind of names are below top32, it should be obvious. However, for that, you need to not have in your tournament bracket the top32, and even then the chances would be around 50%
I personally don't really enjoy traveling around the globe, as as comfy as I am, I have no drive to fly to Korea (not to mention tons of $, temporarily leaving job and family).
Good points.
The Korean team houses wanted fast players rather than smart players, since it’s easier to train strategy than speed.
Watching the old Bisu FPVODS I literally knew that I would NEVER be that good. If he had maintained his speed, I’m almost convinced he’d win ASL today.
But the strategic insights to bw doesn’t seem impossible to understand. Not easy by any means, but not out of reach.
So with that in mind, I really don’t think it would be impossible for foreigners to compete let alone win an asl today, but the interest simply isn’t there to dedicate your entire life to a 30 year old video game.
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Some of the foreigners might have the talent, but not the training..
And travelling is taxing. It's hard to perform your best after a travel.
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On May 27 2025 17:25 Soft_General_5023 wrote:
you have to speak korean and live in korea i guess, just to have a chance to be accepted to play proleagues and sponmatches, only that way you can get skill to compete vs top.
similar to: can foreigners be successful at sumo
The best rikishi right now is literally from Mongolia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hōshōryū_Tomokatsu
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EPT
