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ZvZ at the speed of 3.75
Hello everyone, I am back with a new guide. Just in time for Christmas! The link is here:
http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvz-glaive .
This time I'm explaining the ways of a fast moving harassment focussed Zerg versus Zerg style relying on Mutalisks. Lately on the ladder and in tournaments there has been a lot of stir up from the sudden re-emergence of 2 base Mutalisk. But not as a one off, but more as a standard way to transition.
Mutalisks have become a lot safer lately due to the Infestor nerfs. And because they give you some nice mapcontrol, you can drone up way fast behind it. It is the unit that embodies everything that Zerg wants, getting more drones and twisting the opponents ankles over and over by harassment. While Roaches are great units to trade with, Mutalisks are great even in relatively small numbers.
This macro advantage gives you an edge over +1 Roach pushes or other varients of Hatch or late lair type plays. Turning the tables on your opponent quickly and making their life just a little tougher.
Here's a small excerpt out of it
Defending versus Hydralisk Pushes![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RrxiT.png) The most common follow up to this sudden need of anti-air is the Hydralisk. Here I will explain how to deal with that option. Now this is one of the money decisions you can force your opponent to make. Everybody loves to make fun of the Hydralisk and this guide won't skimp on that. It would be better to train a dolphin to swim in creep and suddenly pounce up in the air to slap the Mutalisks and die when it hits the ground than to make Hydralisks. The largest strength of our army is mobility. Hydralisks are really immobile compared to the rest of the Zerg army. This stark contrast with the blazingly fast Mutalisk ups our chances to harass and keep his push back. The longer you delay his push and delay his third, the more you will get ahead simply by having an economic advantage. Unlike you, he HAS to attack to even out the score. You can actually just stall for a long time because his push will eventually become weaker and more all inish by every passing second. The Hydralisk has a couple of unfavourable traits to it that I would like to dub the “Hydra-effect”. What this simply entails is this: - Hydralisks need to be in a large group to be effective, a single Hydra won't throw the battle around in your favour.
- Hydralisks cost a lot of gas, so you can't tech and get a large group of Hydralisks at the same time.
The Stalker suffers from the same kind of traits but it has other advantages in return. Because Hydralisks delay tech, you are basically safe knowing that he won't have Mutalisks or Infestors out of his own. Knowing that Infestors can't be out fast, you can be sure that our Banelings will not get stopped from rolling. Double awesome is that Hydralisks aren't really on good terms with Banelings. It takes only 3 Banelings to one-shot a Hydralisk pack even if they are upgraded to 3/3. So you can effectively trade your opponent's gas with yours almost instantly. Unupgraded Roaches take 8 Baneling hits to die, so it isn't all that cost effective unless you hit a large pack with Hydralisks mixed in. Regardless, the extremely fast weakening of the opponents force will balance out the upgrade advantages he has. Stopping at the golden 12 to 14 Mutalisk number will give you enough money to tech towards Baneling Speed, which allows us to close in towards the squishy underbelly of the opponents force much faster. It doesn't matter if you overproduce on Banelings because all you have to do is kill off his attack once to get an insurmountable advantage. Transitioning into your own Roach warren and just pumping out Roaches before the opponent moves out will give you a nice buffer that the opponents Roaches can't cut through quickly. The longer the fight goes on, the more it goes in your favour due to the Mutalisks. You just produce more Banelings after he pushes out of his base, they will be done in time for his push to hit. Even if he still has a large force of Roaches left after all the Hydralisks have evaporated, they can't shoot up. Keeping them still with your Roaches while bombarding them with Mutalisk glaives will whither his push considerably disallowing him from inflicting major economic and structural damage. The Push "All those things seem nice, but eventually he will knock on my door. How do I engage in the right way?" Well this actually isn't all that hard to perform really. Your main objective here is to move your Banelings into the Hydralisks and let them have a hay-day with 'em. Because the Roaches can't surround the Hydralisks fully, you can set up some Baneling flanks and obliterate him by attacking from the back. Hydralisks tend to stay at the back of the army due to the unitspeeds anyway, but good players actually put the Roaches in front of the Hydralisks to tank damage. Putting up a flank with Banelings will help a lot, but choosing where to engage is also a really important decision. Do you engage near the Spinecrawlers with Roaches or do you just move out? You really need to save your third in this play, so whenever he attacks your third you immediately need to spring into action to prevent him from taking it out. Don't let him get a favourable position though, with your faster units you can't let him get the better concave or a high ground position while you engage. The next question is his exact army composition. If it is pure Hydralisk or a high Hydra to Roach ratio you can easily roll through his force with Banelings. When he goes for more Roach focus with some Hydralisks mixed in, you just roll in and attack with all your forces including your Mutalisks to take him down. When his push is down to the size that it won't ever kill off your Spines and you are losing your Roaches, simply retreat with them and destroy him with the next wave of units. If he goes for some Banelings mixed in though, you need to be more careful with your engagement. Two stray Banelings can kill off a LOT of yours if you mismicroed them. So keep your Banelings back and see if they move forward into your Roach army. Just take out as many as you can ( within reason ofcourse, no need to use all your Roaches to snipe off retreating Banelings ) before you use your Banelings. If his push is delayed enough you can simply drone up and get more and more Roaches. He will probably go for a Roach/Hydra/Infestor composition but you can harass him a lot and get a much higher economy and unit count than him with your third, so you shouldn't really lose to this kind of all in desperation push. If it takes long enough just get out Infestors and a large Spinecrawler wall and win by starving your opponent out. If you follow these steps and don't overcommit in your counter attacks, you should win here as long as your transitions are crisp and well executed.
Again, the link is:
http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvz-glaive
Hopefully this guide will help you understand the underlying thoughts of opening in a 2 base Mutalisk fashion. And perhaps persuade you into trying it out for yourself to see what results you get. I have been loving this build the second I started to play it instead of rage at it about how 'all in' it was.
Thank you all for reading and Merry Christmas to the Strategy Forum people :D!
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Against muta my answer is to go infestors then hydras. Make 4-5 infestors that will be there in time to defend against the mutas. He cant kill any drones if you play well because he cant stack his mutas and he cant send them by two or something (queens and spores). Defend well and dont panick.
Take a third when you have a few hydras after your initial spawn of infestors and max out on 3 bases adding roaches then a-move. Mutas player usually cant defend it (3-4 infestors made early in the game will be at full energy, ready to rape mutas or banelings or roaches) unless they transition into something non standard like ultras or broodlords (you basically cant scout anything at all when he has the mutas). Of course when you leave ur base you make sure you are protected against zerglings counter attacks (spines, 1-2 bane every base).
You could eventually add burrowed banes in the guide if you see no overseer. They kill infestors and hydras easily. Works better then speedbanes if there are infestors on the field.
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Please please please dont stop these guides, I love them so much and even as a masters Zerg, they help me tons.
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On December 25 2011 00:37 Natalya wrote: Against muta my answer is to go infestors then hydras. Make 4-5 infestors that will be there in time to defend against the mutas. He cant kill any drones if you play well because he cant stack his mutas and he cant send them by two or something (queens and spores). Defend well and dont panick.
Take a third when you have a few hydras after your initial spawn of infestors and max out on 3 bases adding roaches then a-move. Mutas player usually cant defend it (3-4 infestors made early in the game will be at full energy, ready to rape mutas or banelings or roaches) unless they transition into something non standard like ultras or broodlords (you basically cant scout anything at all when he has the mutas). Of course when you leave ur base you make sure you are protected against zerglings counter attacks (spines, 1-2 bane every base).
You could eventually add burrowed banes in the guide if you see no overseer. They kill infestors and hydras easily. Works better then speedbanes if there are infestors on the field.
The problem with that style is that your third will be super delayed. I can basically camp over your third with a bunch of Mutalisks while getting my own up much faster and saturate it really quickly. By the time your Hydralisks come out to claim the third the Mutalisk player should have upgrades for the ground on the way and the ability to mass Roaches a lot.
If played correctly, the Mutalisk player will still win. Of course if the Mutalisk player is bad you will win with that attack, otherwise you will have a tough time dealing with that macro disadvantage you had during the time I had a third and you didn't. Not saying that your style can't deal with Mutalisks, just that there is no definitive hard counter build to a reactive Mutalisk player.
On December 25 2011 00:44 Lebzetu wrote: Please please please dont stop these guides, I love them so much and even as a masters Zerg, they help me tons.
I don't really have anything to write about as of yet though, I might make one about playing against Mech but otherwise I have no clue what specialized guide I could make from my own experience. Thanks for liking them though!
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On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 00:44 Lebzetu wrote: Please please please dont stop these guides, I love them so much and even as a masters Zerg, they help me tons. I don't really have anything to write about as of yet though, I might make one about playing against Mech but otherwise I have no clue what specialized guide I could make from my own experience. Thanks for liking them though! ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif) Yeah I really like what you do, just making guides as the metagame changes. Though one question... In ZvZ, what if he goes Hydra AND infestor when you go mutalisks? I know its gas dependant but I have seen it been used and its really effective.
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On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote: If played correctly, the Mutalisk player will still win.
i agree. imo preventing mutas is always more expensive in terms of pure costs than going mutas on your own in zvz. preventing mutas as well requests a higher apm; like moving overlords or drones from/to mineral line/gas, split your army, arrange your queens/spores for defense...=more apm for restructuring the mess the mutas cause
you dont have to overcommit to mutas, just around 2 hands full for mapcontrol and safety....take one more base, saturate it, upgrade and tech to roach-inf-broodlord or just kill your opponent if you killed enough drones during harrasment. pretty safe win.
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On December 25 2011 01:07 Lebzetu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote:On December 25 2011 00:44 Lebzetu wrote: Please please please dont stop these guides, I love them so much and even as a masters Zerg, they help me tons. I don't really have anything to write about as of yet though, I might make one about playing against Mech but otherwise I have no clue what specialized guide I could make from my own experience. Thanks for liking them though! ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif) Yeah I really like what you do, just making guides as the metagame changes. Though one question... In ZvZ, what if he goes Hydra AND infestor when you go mutalisks? I know its gas dependant but I have seen it been used and its really effective.
If he goes Hydralisk AND Infestor at the same time, you go ahead and macro up like a madman because he can't attack you any time soon. You stop Mutalisk production when you get around 12 and don't get any upgrades for them, while double upgrading your ground army and getting up means to go mass mass roach, while transitioning into Infestor yourself.
If he attacks before he is maxed, you win because you can simply build a lot of Roaches and Spinecrawlers and defend his push regardless. If he attacks when he's maxed you should already have Infestors of your own up and should have maxed with a better economy way before him.
This happens all the while you deny his third and harass him everywhere you want.
Roach/Hydra/Infestor is very strong, but extremly slow and rigid. It's a deathball that has to kill outright, but that doesn't really happen if you have good reinforcements and injects off of a macro hatchery. Roach/Hydra player loses all control over the game and has to rely on one big push, while the Muta player just calmly transitions into what works best.
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Great guide 5/5. Always look forward to you stuff :D
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Wow, so it really does seem like Mutalisks are the way to go in ZvZ.
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On December 25 2011 01:26 Lebzetu wrote: Wow, so it really does seem like Mutalisks are the way to go in ZvZ.
...which is a real shame because Roach/Hydra/Infestor had so much more of a dynamic to it than Muta/Ling/Bling. The unfortunate side-effect of Mutas being so powerful now is that either the metagame has to shift somehow to make Roach/Hydra/Infestor more viable... or everyone and their mother does the 1-a-ez-train of ling/bling/muta until HotS where Hydra's get the speed upgrade.
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On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote:
The problem with that style is that your third will be super delayed. I can basically camp over your third with a bunch of Mutalisks while getting my own up much faster and saturate it really quickly. By the time your Hydralisks come out to claim the third the Mutalisk player should have upgrades for the ground on the way and the ability to mass Roaches a lot.
I totally disagree. Once infestors are out, you cant camp anywhere on the map, because one fungal is GG. Since my ennemy dont know where my infestors are, most of the time he'll stop harassing, preferring not to eat a letal fungal. Sometimes when my tech didnt get scouted, the first mutas eat a fungal and the game looks really bad for my opponent. I make hydra den while making infestors. Infestors will spawn at the same time muta does, so that your third will be like max 1 minute before mine (unless you take a third before lair or something, but then I can do the same). Not that much of a big deal considering how better my composition is. In order to deny my third you would need lings together with your mutas, you have few chances to win that engagement given that you already took an expo and maybe droned behind mutas.
You are talking about maxing on roaches. My point here is that a low eco infestor play can beat a high eco play (unless the high eco player also start with infestors) because my infestors will be early, stacking up energy and totally shuting down muta harass. Since you started by throwing so much ressources in muta, you kinda cant catch up unless I let you take 4 bases or something.
For instance 4 infestors at full energy can kill 20 roaches with fungal/infested terrans. I'll be ahead on upgrades since I started them earlier. And well, you will be playing SO risky if you take a third while stopping muta production and transition to roaches and upgrades or even infestors. If u want to go infestors you are still behind my fungal count given that i made them earlier (those early infestors are really a super big deal) and can decide to keep making infestors (you could have an earlier third but you invested 1400 gas in 12 mutas...). If you let me max out, you've lost the game since i have better upgrades, better infestor count (in most of those games vs mutas I end up with 16 infestors), and you basically have your super expensive and super useless mutas in a straight up fight. Unless, of course, you decide to go for the base trade.
If I see at any point that you are stopping muta production, I can make a handfull of raoches and go kill you because I'll be suspecting that you are droning and transitioning at the same time, which is a super greedy play. Spines are useless unless you make 5+ spines at both your natural and your third. On most maps, spines cant defend both expos unless you make spines in the middle of the map, where i can still fight them one at a time because they will ahve to be spread out unless you have like 20.
To say it shortly, mutas are great if you can make your opponent feel like he cant leave his base. But once i have 4 infestors and 5 hydras i feel free to move our personnaly. It comes down to who plays it the better, but i really dont think mutas themselves gives you an advantage.
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On December 25 2011 02:13 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote:
The problem with that style is that your third will be super delayed. I can basically camp over your third with a bunch of Mutalisks while getting my own up much faster and saturate it really quickly. By the time your Hydralisks come out to claim the third the Mutalisk player should have upgrades for the ground on the way and the ability to mass Roaches a lot. I totally disagree. Once infestors are out, you cant camp anywhere on the map, because one fungal is GG. Since my ennemy dont know where my infestors are, most of the time he'll stop harassing, preferring not to eat a letal fungal. Sometimes when my tech didnt get scouted, the first mutas eat a fungal and the game looks really bad for my opponent. I make hydra den while making infestors. Infestors will spawn at the same time muta does, so that your third will be like max 1 minute before mine (unless you take a third before lair or something, but then I can do the same). Not that much of a big deal considering how better my composition is. In order to deny my third you would need lings together with your mutas, you have few chances to win that engagement given that you already took an expo and maybe droned behind mutas. You are talking about maxing on roaches. My point here is that a low eco infestor play can beat a high eco play (unless the high eco player also start with infestors) because my infestors will be early, stacking up energy and totally shuting down muta harass. Since you started by throwing so much ressources in muta, you kinda cant catch up unless I let you take 4 bases or something. For instance 4 infestors at full energy can kill 20 roaches with fungal/infested terrans. I'll be ahead on upgrades since I started them earlier. And well, you will be playing SO risky if you take a third while stopping muta production and transition to roaches and upgrades or even infestors. If u want to go infestors you are still behind my fungal count given that i made them earlier (those early infestors are really a super big deal) and can decide to keep making infestors (you could have an earlier third but you invested 1400 gas in 12 mutas...). If you let me max out, you've lost the game since i have better upgrades, better infestor count (in most of those games vs mutas I end up with 16 infestors), and you basically have your super expensive and super useless mutas in a straight up fight. Unless, of course, you decide to go for the base trade. If I see at any point that you are stopping muta production, I can make a handfull of raoches and go kill you because I'll be suspecting that you are droning and transitioning at the same time, which is a super greedy play. Spines are useless unless you make 5+ spines at both your natural and your third. On most maps, spines cant defend both expos unless you make spines in the middle of the map, where i can still fight them one at a time because they will ahve to be spread out unless you have like 20. To say it shortly, mutas are great if you can make your opponent feel like he cant leave his base. But once i have 4 infestors and 5 hydras i feel free to move our personnaly. It comes down to who plays it the better, but i really dont think mutas themselves gives you an advantage.
It's your logic against mine, I personally feel that I can deny your third for way logner as long as I spread my Mutalisks out. I'll be willing to go for a Bo5 to set aside our views that way however.
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On December 25 2011 01:26 Lebzetu wrote: Wow, so it really does seem like Mutalisks are the way to go in ZvZ.
Not necessarily. You can play whatever way you feel better suits your style and personal enjoyment.
Mutas are hitting a heyday it seems. They were always present in pro ZvT, hit the scene in ZvP in the fall, and seem to take over ZvZ. Like every metagame shift there is a gap where everyone loses to it because they don't know how to react. If you want to see alternative styles of play then go to drop.sc, download masters and gm zvz's, filter out the replays without a spire using sc2gears, and watch. Most will be muta replays, but you start to see elements that work.
I've seen pros successfully go hydra and infestor (ret at mlg orlando vs slush and spanishiwa on his stream), but the common elements are delayed expansions and forced tech. I've been having a lot of success recently with the delayed third, maxing on roaches, a few hydra, and a handful of infestors, getting 2-1 quickly, and outright attacking. My opponent will have more supply tied up in workers and mutas, so their army will be weaker, less upgraded, and the gas advantage from the third base hasn't yielded a million infestors. This is all assuming they went roach/infestor after the muta harass, but if they keep going zergling/baneling/muta then they have to be careful with how much gas they're spending on what (since banelings and muta are so gas-heavy). If they're going all-out muta then roaches and infestors will do a lot given fungals and a lower ling count. The roach army won't survive, but it will take out at least one base.
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Why dont you just post that guide straight up using the TL forums? For some reason I'm unable to view the guide.
Edit: The guide loaded(after quite a while...). Splendid guide!
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On December 25 2011 03:27 Corridor wrote: Why dont you just post that guide straight up using the TL forums? For some reason I'm unable to view the guide.
For formattting and table of content reasons, it wouldn't look good to have a guide that long in a TL post. Also I have more control over how the mobile version looks. Which is why I prefer to host my guides my own server rather than spam you with quote and spoiler tags.
Maybe try again later, there don't seem to be any problems on the server side of things.
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On December 25 2011 02:17 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 02:13 Natalya wrote:On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote:
The problem with that style is that your third will be super delayed. I can basically camp over your third with a bunch of Mutalisks while getting my own up much faster and saturate it really quickly. By the time your Hydralisks come out to claim the third the Mutalisk player should have upgrades for the ground on the way and the ability to mass Roaches a lot. I totally disagree. Once infestors are out, you cant camp anywhere on the map, because one fungal is GG. Since my ennemy dont know where my infestors are, most of the time he'll stop harassing, preferring not to eat a letal fungal. Sometimes when my tech didnt get scouted, the first mutas eat a fungal and the game looks really bad for my opponent. I make hydra den while making infestors. Infestors will spawn at the same time muta does, so that your third will be like max 1 minute before mine (unless you take a third before lair or something, but then I can do the same). Not that much of a big deal considering how better my composition is. In order to deny my third you would need lings together with your mutas, you have few chances to win that engagement given that you already took an expo and maybe droned behind mutas. You are talking about maxing on roaches. My point here is that a low eco infestor play can beat a high eco play (unless the high eco player also start with infestors) because my infestors will be early, stacking up energy and totally shuting down muta harass. Since you started by throwing so much ressources in muta, you kinda cant catch up unless I let you take 4 bases or something. For instance 4 infestors at full energy can kill 20 roaches with fungal/infested terrans. I'll be ahead on upgrades since I started them earlier. And well, you will be playing SO risky if you take a third while stopping muta production and transition to roaches and upgrades or even infestors. If u want to go infestors you are still behind my fungal count given that i made them earlier (those early infestors are really a super big deal) and can decide to keep making infestors (you could have an earlier third but you invested 1400 gas in 12 mutas...). If you let me max out, you've lost the game since i have better upgrades, better infestor count (in most of those games vs mutas I end up with 16 infestors), and you basically have your super expensive and super useless mutas in a straight up fight. Unless, of course, you decide to go for the base trade. If I see at any point that you are stopping muta production, I can make a handfull of raoches and go kill you because I'll be suspecting that you are droning and transitioning at the same time, which is a super greedy play. Spines are useless unless you make 5+ spines at both your natural and your third. On most maps, spines cant defend both expos unless you make spines in the middle of the map, where i can still fight them one at a time because they will ahve to be spread out unless you have like 20. To say it shortly, mutas are great if you can make your opponent feel like he cant leave his base. But once i have 4 infestors and 5 hydras i feel free to move our personnaly. It comes down to who plays it the better, but i really dont think mutas themselves gives you an advantage. It's your logic against mine, I personally feel that I can deny your third for way logner as long as I spread my Mutalisks out. I'll be willing to go for a Bo5 to set aside our views that way however.
Bo5 would not prove much seeing that there could still be discrepancy between your respective skill levels..
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in my experiences mutas are map dependent in zvz. they are great on maps like shattered and tal darim where the third is far away or harder to take. on maps like antiga, i believe roach/hydra/infestor is better because the third can be taken extremely early and easily.
mutas is NOT the only way to go zvz, and if you don't believe me go watch ret's stream for a couple hours and look for his zvz's; his roach/hydra is extremely strong and hard to play against even with mutas (i know from experience).
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On December 25 2011 01:37 Promethium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 01:26 Lebzetu wrote: Wow, so it really does seem like Mutalisks are the way to go in ZvZ. ...which is a real shame because Roach/Hydra/Infestor had so much more of a dynamic to it than Muta/Ling/Bling. The unfortunate side-effect of Mutas being so powerful now is that either the metagame has to shift somehow to make Roach/Hydra/Infestor more viable... or everyone and their mother does the 1-a-ez-train of ling/bling/muta until HotS where Hydra's get the speed upgrade. ![](/mirror/smilies/frown.gif)
This is sarcasm, right? Roach/hydra was REALLY 1a, and infestor usage isn't hard in the slightest.
If you 1a muta ling bling you'll lose against a decent player that targets the banelings with tanks in TvZ, and in ZvZ it's 10x as bad. You have to make sure that you get his hydras with your banelings, that you split your mutas/banes vs. fungal, etc.
And if it ends up being muta/ling/bling vs. muta/ling/bling its about as micro intensive as Zerg gets, so I don't see how you could say it's 1a.
With that being said, I'm glad you mentioned getting carapace/melee upgrades and then transitioning into ultras, it's honestly the reason I feel the ling/muta/bling style is so strong. They want to get roaches to absorb the blings for the hydras and infestors for fungal, but both units are awful against ultras.
On December 25 2011 02:13 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 00:47 Chaosvuistje wrote:
The problem with that style is that your third will be super delayed. I can basically camp over your third with a bunch of Mutalisks while getting my own up much faster and saturate it really quickly. By the time your Hydralisks come out to claim the third the Mutalisk player should have upgrades for the ground on the way and the ability to mass Roaches a lot. I totally disagree. Once infestors are out, you cant camp anywhere on the map, because one fungal is GG. Since my ennemy dont know where my infestors are, most of the time he'll stop harassing, preferring not to eat a letal fungal. Sometimes when my tech didnt get scouted, the first mutas eat a fungal and the game looks really bad for my opponent. I make hydra den while making infestors. Infestors will spawn at the same time muta does, so that your third will be like max 1 minute before mine (unless you take a third before lair or something, but then I can do the same). Not that much of a big deal considering how better my composition is. In order to deny my third you would need lings together with your mutas, you have few chances to win that engagement given that you already took an expo and maybe droned behind mutas. You are talking about maxing on roaches. My point here is that a low eco infestor play can beat a high eco play (unless the high eco player also start with infestors) because my infestors will be early, stacking up energy and totally shuting down muta harass. Since you started by throwing so much ressources in muta, you kinda cant catch up unless I let you take 4 bases or something. For instance 4 infestors at full energy can kill 20 roaches with fungal/infested terrans. I'll be ahead on upgrades since I started them earlier. And well, you will be playing SO risky if you take a third while stopping muta production and transition to roaches and upgrades or even infestors. If u want to go infestors you are still behind my fungal count given that i made them earlier (those early infestors are really a super big deal) and can decide to keep making infestors (you could have an earlier third but you invested 1400 gas in 12 mutas...). If you let me max out, you've lost the game since i have better upgrades, better infestor count (in most of those games vs mutas I end up with 16 infestors), and you basically have your super expensive and super useless mutas in a straight up fight. Unless, of course, you decide to go for the base trade. If I see at any point that you are stopping muta production, I can make a handfull of raoches and go kill you because I'll be suspecting that you are droning and transitioning at the same time, which is a super greedy play. Spines are useless unless you make 5+ spines at both your natural and your third. On most maps, spines cant defend both expos unless you make spines in the middle of the map, where i can still fight them one at a time because they will ahve to be spread out unless you have like 20. To say it shortly, mutas are great if you can make your opponent feel like he cant leave his base. But once i have 4 infestors and 5 hydras i feel free to move our personnaly. It comes down to who plays it the better, but i really dont think mutas themselves gives you an advantage.
If someone stops harassing because you have a few infestors they are bad with mutas. Period. You split them up and have a spotting muta so that 1 fungal is NOT gg. That + bringing an overseer to kill creep tumors (thus making hydras l0l slow to defend 3 bases) and you can definitely keep them in their base longer. If a muta player plays the style correctly on a good muta map he'll only lose to a really strong (and well-controlled) push pre-ultra (usually while the hive is morphing). At least with the builds we're seeing today, obviously everything is subject to change, especially with the coming expansions.
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On December 25 2011 04:15 Malstriks wrote: in my experiences mutas are map dependent in zvz. they are great on maps like shattered and tal darim where the third is far away or harder to take. on maps like antiga, i believe roach/hydra/infestor is better because the third can be taken extremely early and easily.
mutas is NOT the only way to go zvz, and if you don't believe me go watch ret's stream for a couple hours and look for his zvz's; his roach/hydra is extremely strong and hard to play against even with mutas (i know from experience).
Oh I'm definitely not calling it the absolute best way to go, just that it is not as 'all inish' as most people assume it is. In the cons of the style I've also noted that you should deny the third at all costs. If you let the Roach/Hydra opponent get the third up 2 base mutalisk is obviously not going to work. So on certain maps, Mutalisks are not a favoured style. Like on maps where the third is really easily taken and where the rush distances aren't all that far.
Both Roach based styles and Mutalisk based styles depend on the map to a certain extent. But the current map pool gives more advantages to a Mutalisk based style over a Roach/Hydra based style.
And in general I am not convinced about 2 base Infestors styles. If I spread out well enough that fungalling my Mutalisks won't be worth it, I can still do my damage. Sure if I clump up all my Mutalisks and you fungal them 5 times, I'm going to lose everything. But you should be able to spread them out far enough that Infestor players will have to wait until consistant anti air units like the Hydralisk or the Queen move to that area. If I delay your third long and not fly into Sporecrawlers in the main or natural, I would still enjoy my drone advantage.
There have been many instances where I had infestors and fungalled roach after roach, and then have an army of 40 30 health Roaches plow through my stuff anyway because he had better upgrades. I find that 2 base Infestor styles give up too much even against a regular 'roach spam' ZvZ and make your play much more inflexible.
If a Bo5 won't accomplish anything, I would greatly appreciate replays of a 2 base Infestor style beating a good expanding 2 base mutalisk style and post my thoughts on them here.
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Thanks Chaos great to see another guide of yours ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif) I am reading it asap, nice theme, we want adrenaline!!
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