EPTHaven't been able to get much success out of mtuas in ZvZ; I seem to be completely unable to win with anything besides roach/infestor. Hopefully this can help shed some light to Nestea's beautiful muta ZvZ; mutas are pretty much the coolest unit in the entire game.
[G] Zerg versus Zerg: Glaive Guillotine - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
cosineInfinity
United States178 Posts
Haven't been able to get much success out of mtuas in ZvZ; I seem to be completely unable to win with anything besides roach/infestor. Hopefully this can help shed some light to Nestea's beautiful muta ZvZ; mutas are pretty much the coolest unit in the entire game. | ||
|
babysimba
10466 Posts
The idea is that your anti-air will be more cost effective, thus you can invest more gas into banelings to win the ground battle as well. Pressure heavily with ground forces to force their mutas to engage. Add mutas once you have the air dominance. If you kill enough mutas, they will be forced into an uncomfortable position where they need to switch back to infestor&hydra tech. If you reach this stage, it will be similar to mutas vs 2 base roach situation. Either pressure lightly and grab your own fourth or just simply go kill their third. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The muta response to roach with a fast 3rd should be taking very fast 3rd and 4th and denying the roach player's 4th, right? Same deal but up a base, which means he can get roach hydra infestor sooner, which means you need to switch out of mutas back to ground earlier, and you're less likely to defend with speed banelings. You can't take that fast third if someone has 10 roaches with baneling support if you are going mutas though. On larger maps, it is possible to take a faraway third when going 2 base muta against a fast third roacher, and I do think on larger maps it's actually better to play that as opposed to fast third roach/hydra, but I think that fast third roach/hydra is better than going 2 base muta against someone going 2 base lair roach. If both of you go fast third before lair, then the game can go either way, mutas or roaches, and I think the safer option depends on how many roaches you see the opponent make, or in other words, if they go for macro play or aggressive play. Regarding spire vs spire games, do explore the possibility of going corruptors, especially when going up against someone who have an economic advantage (can't get fast 3rd nor mutas as response). Have an overseer scout to confirm they are indeed going spire. I really disagree about corruptors. They give up all map control, and corruptors start to do really, really badly against mutas once the muta count goes over about 15. If you are losing the muta battle, 90% of the time you've pretty much lost, but just spore it up and try to get that muta count to around at least 15, and then go infestors. With lots of spores, hopefully, you can push back the mutas once you have infestors and force the opponent back so you can get another base up, but muta vs muta is pretty damn unforgiving. Generally, if you go infestors against someone constantly making mutas, you will just die as he will overrun you when his muta count gets much larger than yours, but with heavy spore spread, you can maybe make it back if you get the tech advantage with infestors + muta. Really, it just makes it so whoever is winning the macro game, wins immediately, which is kind of how the game should be, but it's quite unforgiving in muta vs muta. I don't think you should be really spending anything at all into banelings in muta vs muta games, you need to put it into more mutas, or at least towards infestors. You can make a shitton of lings though and hopefully come back with ling counter-attacks, but gas is too important to put into banes at that stage of the game. Once the muta count is above 20, ground control doesn't matter much. You just have to make it so air control isn't an issue anymore by going infestors, and then forcing the opponent to go infestors, to force the game into ground vs ground focused again with ultra/infestor. Hydras, is a horrible response though, banelings just rape them, as do infestor+muta. Hydras are too gas costly. | ||
|
Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
You can't take that fast third if someone has 10 roaches with baneling support if you are going mutas though I don't really think your small ground army with a few banelings can defend your own 3rd and deny your opponent's 3rd simultaneously, not after investing in the hatchery. I'm pretty sure the muta player would happily counterattack to trade 3rds with you, bringing it back to 2 base muta vs 2 base roach. | ||
|
babysimba
10466 Posts
I'm not talking about adding in corruptors after knowing you are losing in muta count. That's way too late, with the only option left is to turtle while getting infestor support. I'm talking about when both players are making their first batch of air units, you commit fully to corruptors production (not half-assed mutas+corruptors production). While both players are still struggling to get their third up + saturate it, that's when you take advantage of both your air and ground raw firepower to force them to engage or risk economic damage. In fact, you will be the one having full map control. Assuming both come out even in the early game, fast third will always have an advantage (upgrades+ econmoy) over muta builds. Though i have been saying for ages in previous mutas zvz threads that going mutas is never a pre-game decision. You can only choose to go mutas if you come out at least even in the early game. Of course, longer rush distance = more leeway. However, muta is a very good build to have as it is one of the safest builds going into mid-game while protecting the macro lead you gain from the early game. | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + You really can't really tell me that Muta vs Muta isn't more exciting than RoachHydra, because with all these attacks and risky engagements, I feel its much better than Roach games. | ||
|
NeonFox
2373 Posts
Some things I noticed while playing and might help some people : One thing I noticed works vs most opponents when you have a superior muta count but they turtle on 3 bases until they catch up is to make a round of lings and send them into his third. Then position your mutas in the path his mutas will have to take coming from your main and intercept his own. Also on some maps like Taldarim it's better to actually wall your expansions in. For example the third covered by rocks can be walled in with some evos and spines, making you safe from ling runbys to try and snipe your extractors. Which brings me to say your advice about the extractors is perfect, a lost extractor is a huge problem when every muta counts. Against a roach hydra or roach infestor player, it may sound weird but it's sometimes better to attack yourself. Some of them will try to tech to hydra and infestors before pushing out, meaning you'll have a big eco advantage for a while. Just transitioning into roaches after your third and maxing on them allows you to have a big army very, very fast. Your unit composition will suck, your upgrades will be inferior to his, but you can force the engagement where you want by attacking his expansion, and you'll just flood him with cheap roaches. | ||
|
Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
| ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 26 2011 20:01 Bswhunter wrote: What is your opinion on corrupters in the ZvZ matchup, especially with muta transitions? As I said in the guide, I think they have a limited role as a timing attack unit versus a mirror Mutalisk build. If you are ahead on the spire timing ( and you KNOW he's going spire for sure ) then you can mass up a lot of Corruptors and camp over the hatcheries sniping off Mutalisks as they hatch. But they are not good combat units versus the Mutalisks because they deal similar damage but are much much slower. Corruptors can be used to snipe off a ton of Overlords if the opponent isn't going Mutalisks, but you will get screwed over hard if the opponent went Hydralisks randomly. You can't mix in corruptors either because they will drag your own Mutalisks down and allow the opponent to harass whereas you have to defend because of the slow movement speed. In straight up fights, Corruptors are amazing against Mutalisks. Except that's the crutch, if they fight head on. If anything the Mutalisks almost never attack head on unless they have an advantage, else they just fly away in the safety of Sporecrawlers. So their limited use as an anti-overlord and anti-Muta unit that can only be good in straight up fights, that don't happen, make it a unit that isn't really all that amazing compared to just getting up a lot of Mutalisks yourself for harassment and teching into Infestors later. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't really think your small ground army with a few banelings can defend your own 3rd and deny your opponent's 3rd simultaneously, not after investing in the hatchery. I'm pretty sure the muta player would happily counterattack to trade 3rds with you, bringing it back to 2 base muta vs 2 base roach. Someone going 2 base lair isn't going to have much ground army. It's possible you can have enough roaches to defend a small army if going 2 base lair, but if you are going muta without roaches, then you won't have roaches to do that. The muta player won't have enough lings to counterattack in a way that a few at-home banes can't deal with. I won't say that the muta player couldn't try to do that though. While both players are still struggling to get their third up + saturate it, that's when you take advantage of both your air and ground raw firepower to force them to engage or risk economic damage. In fact, you will be the one having full map control. The muta player can simply harass way more effectively. Once you end up behind, the other player gets enough of a lead to simply get more mutas and overwhelm those corruptors. Corruptors become pretty deadweight once enough mutas are out. | ||
|
Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 26 2011 04:48 Belial88 wrote: Natalya, you can only secure your third after infestors come out... that's a really long time. If I saw someone doing 2 base roach infestor though, id go fast third, then pure rooach, and overrun you. I don't know what level you play at but 2 base infestor is a horrible build noww. Lol. I think i'm not going to answer anymore since you dont even read what i posted. Infestors are up at the same as muta does. He take his third after the first spawn of muta, so do I with my infestors. So thatt he has, in the worst case, an expo something like a minute before me. Which is no big deal given that infestors are so much more cost efficient. And I play at least at the same level as you do given that I'm high master and according to the last replay I saw from you. Basically, the way you react nearly every time to a post is the following : calling people big names (you're so much of a fool if you never heard about the "belial's floral arrangement of death", and it could even be your first game on sc2 i'm gona keep calling you fool), not giving them any credit compared to the SO AMAZING BELIAL, and, worst of all, not even trying to find any logic or any points behind other peoples's argument. You are acting as if you holded the truth itself within your posts. So, after trying to discredit me ("I dont know what level you're playing at"), you simply affirm with no argumentation that my build is horrible. LoL. What you said about roaches is no argumentation since you do not take my other posts into account. I'm trying to help you on this one: I talked about 2 base infestor into 3 base as an answer to 2 base muta into 3+ base. How could it be horrible when you're safe against muta harass and when the macro advantage your opponent could have is not a big deal given that you are more cost efficient. Now I'm still trying to help you reading other people's post for real. I said that my build is weak against mass roaches. So, ask youself, if there is any logic in the way I play, if I'm not a fool as you may think, what does that mean? That maybe I wouldnt play 2 base infestors vs an pre-lair third from my opponent? UNCREDIBLE, my build can makes sens again. As I said in another post, if I see a fast third I can take one myself. Many people do not like the way you are posting on TL. Maybe it's time to ask yourself why and to work on it. Hope I helped. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Infestors are up at the same as muta does. He take his third after the first spawn of muta, so do I with my infestors. So thatt he has, in the worst case, an expo something like a minute before me. Which is no big deal given that infestors are so much more cost efficient. Not really. You need to build up energy on the infestors too. I pop out 10 mutas the same time you get out 6 infestors. You only have 6 FG, and you have to walk slow-ass infestors. Also, if you are going infestors, it means no ground army. It means I just take my third. You, on the other hand, can't really take your third - sure you can try, but then the mutas pop and just kill it. It would be half okay if you massed roaches, but if you are going infestors, you can't get any roaches. There's a reason no one goes 2 base infestor anymore in ZvZ. It's why you'll never see Nestea or Losira go 2 base infestor, or any korean for that matter, in ZvZ. You sound like you are venting more than keeping on the discussion. You can PM me, I'm well aware some masters players disagree with me. A lot of masters disagree. I just try to understand what the best players seem to do, like Nestea and Losira, and the rest of the koreans. It's also part personal experience. This conversation we're having Natalya, is ridiculous anyways, because 2 base muta is a bad build, it's kind of what I was arguing with the OP about, although it's not as bad as 2 base infestor. I was just arguing in defense of the OP, that his 2 base muta build is better than 2 base infestor, so no, you make no sense, but this whole thread is about the OP's 2 base muta build. You are the one that is disagreeing by saying the OP's 2 base muta build is wrong. If I saw someone go 2 base infestor, I wouldn't go 2 base muta. I never go 2 base muta. I'm simply saying it's the 'better' 2 base build, but I never go lair before third in ZvZ (except against roach/ling hatch tech all-ins). If I see someone going 2 base infestor, I would just take a fast third as you will have zero ground army due to teching to infestors, and then I would mass roaches and just roll over you. That's why at the top level you don't see mass infestors, you see people go 200/200 roaches or roach/hydra before getting infestors, because you can max out on roach way much quicker than getting infestors, while the roaches allow you map control vs infestor play. If you go 2 base roach, I just go 3 base roach/hydra, and hold your all-in basically. | ||
|
T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Chaos, you can't say this guide isn't meant for 2 vs. 3 base situations, because you can't stop him from taking a 3rd on certain maps. When I wake up, I will upload a great replay against VIBE that demonstrates this. Once zerg gets 3 base roach/hydra, his max will beat a muta player's max so bad that it doesn't matter how many bases you have. I would suggest adding baneling landmines as part of your guide. They are really effective vs bad zerg players. Anyone good would get a overseer to detect landmines and look at baneling count. A good roach hydra user would also add infestors if he sees mass baneling. Btw, Hydras are not bad units. | ||
|
Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
| ||
|
Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On December 27 2011 00:55 T.O.P. wrote: No, 2 base muta is not a bad build. It's a great build unless that map allows a roach hydra user to take an 3rd. I believe that 2 base muta is superior to all 2 base builds because you can take a 3rd and drone up so much faster than the other player. Chaos, you can't say this guide isn't meant for 2 vs. 3 base situations, because you can't stop him from taking a 3rd on certain maps. When I wake up, I will upload a great replay against VIBE that demonstrates this. Once zerg gets 3 base roach/hydra, his max will beat a muta player's max so bad that it doesn't matter how many bases you have. I would suggest adding baneling landmines as part of your guide. They are really effective vs bad zerg players. Anyone good would get a overseer to detect landmines and look at baneling count. A good roach hydra user would also add infestors if he sees mass baneling. Btw, Hydras are not bad units. Yeah but by the time he's max, your goal is to have bl or ultra ! Ofc that if you stay all game long with banelings/lings/muta you're gonna get crushed because your army is less effective than his. But you have map control to get more bases. | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 27 2011 00:55 T.O.P. wrote: No, 2 base muta is not a bad build. It's a great build unless that map allows a roach hydra user to take an 3rd. I believe that 2 base muta is superior to all 2 base builds because you can take a 3rd and drone up so much faster than the other player. Chaos, you can't say this guide isn't meant for 2 vs. 3 base situations, because you can't stop him from taking a 3rd on certain maps. When I wake up, I will upload a great replay against VIBE that demonstrates this. Once zerg gets 3 base roach/hydra, his max will beat a muta player's max so bad that it doesn't matter how many bases you have. I would suggest adding baneling landmines as part of your guide. They are really effective vs bad zerg players. Anyone good would get a overseer to detect landmines and look at baneling count. A good roach hydra user would also add infestors if he sees mass baneling. Btw, Hydras are not bad units. I gladly recieve feedback and replays so that I can improve, but yes if you allow ( or the map layout is good ) the opposing zerg to get 3 bases up, his third will be saturated before yours and his standing army will be stronger in a stand up fight while I'm probably behind on upgrades. I myself have lost to 3 base RoachHydra simply because I didn't deny the third enough a few times. I think I noted the weakness of a fast third Roach/Hydra in the Concept part of the guide, I might be wrong though. About the Baneling land mines, I'm not sure about those as I haven't experimented with them myself. But I could see them working in high pressure situations or large flanks. Plenty of Zergs don't get an Overseer out with a Roach/Hydra push, but I just never really needed to try stuff like that against a 2 base Roach Hydra opponent. Perhaps against a 3base Roach/Hydra opponent they could give you a comeback. Personally I will favour Queens over Hydralisks, but yes with proper support Hydralisks can give you that extra boost. Like in Fungal situations. But I still think that the gas is better spent on an extra Infestor, while reserving the overminerals for a macro hatchery and Queens. I'll have to experiment with that as I haven't felt the need to switch to GtA anti-air in a Muta v Muta situation, I do keep them defensively at home in a larger than normal number, but never used them in offense before. Thanks for the feedback again, and I'll wait for the replay like a late christmas present  | ||
|
Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
The way I go about dealing with it is applying a lot of pressure with roaches and speedlings at around 7-8 mins. This forces a lot of spine crawlers generally as mutalisks will not be out in time (or if they are he will just die for obvious reasons). It is ofc perfectly possible for the muta user to hold the aggression if they are willing to delay their spire a bit (though quite commonly they just straight up die, but you discussed dealing with things like this in your guide.) However I ensure all my roaches survive the push, not committing at all if there are too many spines. With my roaches I will not let you get a third until you have a substantial flock of mutas, honestly under 10 mutas my roaches simply do not care about, above that i can extend their life by use of burrow etc before finally retreating. Additionally if the mutas are attacking my roaches I can skimp on turrets just that bit longer to pump more drones/units and if they go for straight for my base their third will be even further delayed. Using these roaches I can almost always guarantee a MUCH faster third, sometimes even 4th and hold off with spores and queens until my own spire completes. Then a switch into mutas myself, as well as considering I also have useful roach tech, (generally warren+speed+burrow, maybe +1) leaves me way ahead. Is there something im missing, am i just playing bad people/inexperianced ML users or is this something you just don't really see? | ||
|
Kinshuk
India116 Posts
Haven't read the guide yet just asking this question before hand. (reading right now). | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 27 2011 03:38 Kinshuk wrote: SO i have a question - would you recommend going mutas to deal with mutas or is sticking with roach hydra infestor still fine... lately i've been having tons of problems against mutas especially because i cannot get my third or fourth up more so on large maps due to lack of mobility. This also forces me to just all in on 2 or 3 base and hope for the best. Haven't read the guide yet just asking this question before hand. (reading right now). Yes, I would say that if you have the same trouble as I had ( keep having my third denied ect. ) you should try a Mutalisk build out versus Mutalisk styles. There are other Infestor+Queen+Nydus worm pushes off of 2 base, but I have only seen those work after a large roach push has crippled the Mutalisker. On December 27 2011 03:27 Iksf wrote: Please correct me if im wrong but iv always opened with a pretty roach centric style and have really never had a problem with an equally skilled 2 base muta user. The way I go about dealing with it is applying a lot of pressure with roaches and speedlings at around 7-8 mins. This forces a lot of spine crawlers generally as mutalisks will not be out in time (or if they are he will just die for obvious reasons). It is ofc perfectly possible for the muta user to hold the aggression if they are willing to delay their spire a bit (though quite commonly they just straight up die, but you discussed dealing with things like this in your guide.) However I ensure all my roaches survive the push, not committing at all if there are too many spines. With my roaches I will not let you get a third until you have a substantial flock of mutas, honestly under 10 mutas my roaches simply do not care about, above that i can extend their life by use of burrow etc before finally retreating. Additionally if the mutas are attacking my roaches I can skimp on turrets just that bit longer to pump more drones/units and if they go for straight for my base their third will be even further delayed. Using these roaches I can almost always guarantee a MUCH faster third, sometimes even 4th and hold off with spores and queens until my own spire completes. Then a switch into mutas myself, as well as considering I also have useful roach tech, (generally warren+speed+burrow, maybe +1) leaves me way ahead. Is there something im missing, am i just playing bad people/inexperianced ML users or is this something you just don't really see? You see, Roaches have the terrible attribute that unless they come in a large enough pack, I'm not forced to build them. Infact, my Spinecrawlers can hold them off just fine with proper Baneling support if they come in small numbers. Roaches are also very mineral expensive compared to gas, and that cuts into drone production a ton. If you make a lot of Roaches and Zerglings, while I make a lot of Spinecrawlers and react with my own Roaches, I should hold with a better economy. I don't really mind if you stick around my third, as long as I delay yours ( which I should with my own Mutalisks, unless you go for some uber aggressive, almost all inish roach bust ) once so the creep doesn't go there, I know I will have more drones and can afford it. Hell, if you only have a few Roaches at my third denying it, I will gladly take those free kills before taking it, knowing that I can still drone up behind my spinecrawlers for a later maynard. I could possibly even take them out with a Zergling surround because I will just take my macro hatchery faster. I found that more often than I lost more Roaches on the way back and got my third denied to boot because my lair was delayed for Roach production, which eventually kept me behind and quickly being out-econed spirals out of control fast in ZvZ. It's all about the drones, and if I go Muta you can be damn sure that even if you do a Roach pressure and I have some spines, I will be ahead in drones or tech. | ||
|
Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On December 27 2011 03:44 Chaosvuistje wrote: Yes, I would say that if you have the same trouble as I had ( keep having my third denied ect. ) you should try a Mutalisk build out versus Mutalisk styles. There are other Infestor+Queen+Nydus worm pushes off of 2 base, but I have only seen those work after a large roach push has crippled the Mutalisker. You see, Roaches have the terrible attribute that unless they come in a large enough pack, I'm not forced to build them. Infact, my Spinecrawlers can hold them off just fine with proper Baneling support if they come in small numbers. Roaches are also very mineral expensive compared to gas, and that cuts into drone production a ton. If you make a lot of Roaches and Zerglings, while I make a lot of Spinecrawlers and react with my own Roaches, I should hold with a better economy. I don't really mind if you stick around my third, as long as I delay yours ( which I should with my own Mutalisks, unless you go for some uber aggressive, almost all inish roach bust ) once so the creep doesn't go there, I know I will have more drones and can afford it. Hell, if you only have a few Roaches at my third denying it, I will gladly take those free kills before taking it, knowing that I can still drone up behind my spinecrawlers for a later maynard. I could possibly even take them out with a Zergling surround because I will just take my macro hatchery faster. I found that more often than I lost more Roaches on the way back and got my third denied to boot because my lair was delayed for Roach production, which eventually kept me behind and quickly being out-econed spirals out of control fast in ZvZ. It's all about the drones, and if I go Muta you can be damn sure that even if you do a Roach pressure and I have some spines, I will be ahead in drones or tech. I see your point but I don't actually find this happens in reality. Spines are actually very expensive and you need a lot of them to hold a good pressure, then if i do not commit i have full map control until your mutas are out. In this timeframe i can easily get a third and enough spores to defend it before your third is even cleared. There will be a timing where you get map control but generally i find my lair finishes before the muta players spire or about equal. After i have secured 6 gas i can outproduce you on mutas pretty easily. Additionally the roaches honestly barely take damage from mutas, its not even worth retreating against a couple of mutas. Even with 6+ mutas most of my roaches will make it home fine, or stick around to delay your third for as long as possible. This is my experience anyway. | ||
| ||
