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On December 27 2011 00:04 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote + Infestors are up at the same as muta does. He take his third after the first spawn of muta, so do I with my infestors. So thatt he has, in the worst case, an expo something like a minute before me. Which is no big deal given that infestors are so much more cost efficient.
Not really. You need to build up energy on the infestors too. I pop out 10 mutas the same time you get out 6 infestors. You only have 6 FG, and you have to walk slow-ass infestors. Also, if you are going infestors, it means no ground army. It means I just take my third. You, on the other hand, can't really take your third - sure you can try, but then the mutas pop and just kill it. It would be half okay if you massed roaches, but if you are going infestors, you can't get any roaches. There's a reason no one goes 2 base infestor anymore in ZvZ. It's why you'll never see Nestea or Losira go 2 base infestor, or any korean for that matter, in ZvZ. You sound like you are venting more than keeping on the discussion. You can PM me, I'm well aware some masters players disagree with me. A lot of masters disagree. I just try to understand what the best players seem to do, like Nestea and Losira, and the rest of the koreans. It's also part personal experience. This conversation we're having Natalya, is ridiculous anyways, because 2 base muta is a bad build, it's kind of what I was arguing with the OP about, although it's not as bad as 2 base infestor. I was just arguing in defense of the OP, that his 2 base muta build is better than 2 base infestor, so no, you make no sense, but this whole thread is about the OP's 2 base muta build. You are the one that is disagreeing by saying the OP's 2 base muta build is wrong. If I saw someone go 2 base infestor, I wouldn't go 2 base muta. I never go 2 base muta. I'm simply saying it's the 'better' 2 base build, but I never go lair before third in ZvZ (except against roach/ling hatch tech all-ins). If I see someone going 2 base infestor, I would just take a fast third as you will have zero ground army due to teching to infestors, and then I would mass roaches and just roll over you. That's why at the top level you don't see mass infestors, you see people go 200/200 roaches or roach/hydra before getting infestors, because you can max out on roach way much quicker than getting infestors, while the roaches allow you map control vs infestor play. If you go 2 base roach, I just go 3 base roach/hydra, and hold your all-in basically.
Here another example. How could 2 base muta be a bad build when a few weeks ago 90% of high master Z would go for it and still many Z are playing it? You really think you can be right while 90% of the ladder is wrong? Common, if people do a build, there must be a reason for it. You should aim at finding that reason instead of sticking to "the ladder is wrong". And i've seen some koreans go 2 base muta in gsl this week and I wonder if I didnt see it also during bliz cup.
Other things proving you do not really try to find the point in my arguments. You say you'll be countering my 2 base infestor by not going muta and going a fast third. But if you take a third after you saw infestor tech it is not a fast third anymore. You cant know if I'm going muta or infestor before u got a lair urself (cant ov scout that late in the game i guess). So how could you counter my build by not going muta or by going fast 3rd? You simply cant.
So I had little to no trouble getting a third vs mutas player, but well, you wont believe me anyway. You say I dont have ground army. If u take a third and go muta, how do you have a ground army of your own?
And well, I can agree on your point that 3 base before lair is good most of the time. About the "it's easier to max on raoches" idea, I'll hapilly wait for your mass of roaches to attack into my spines + fungal. I could have 10 or 15 less roaches at the time you attack and still hold it imo. Imo 3 bases infestors > 3 bases roaches but if you go 3 bases before lair, you will want to be quite mineral heavy and have late gas (due to the fact you need minerals for hatch, queens and drones), and then once you've good saturation it is very tempting to spam roaches (getting three bases then wait for infestors would be too greedy). And if you start making roaches before infestors, you're going to have very few infestors, and too late to build a good energy pool. I think that's why you'll see mass roaches games out of quick 3 bases.
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On ladder you can do any build with decent macro and be fine, I don't know what you are trying to argue. I'm only basing my argument on personal experience, solid analysis, and perhaps mmost influentially, on what nestea and losira always do.
And I would lose 10 times out of 10 playing nestea - not even, destiny, crazymoving, tlo - going fast third vs them, or 2 base muta vs their 2 base r/h.
If you watch koreans though, especially macro players llike losira and nestea, you'll see that fast third is the future of ZvZ.
I'm not saying that 2 base muta is such a bad build you'll autolose. I'm saying when played correctly, against someone of similar skill, its better than any other 2 base build (despite july losing, his build got him ahead of yugioh before yugioh out multitasked him), and that fast third is better than any 2 base lair build, including 2 base muta.
Its not hard to fathom. Take a third and defend with hydras against 2 base roach. Take a third a defend with spores against 2 base muta. Take a third and mass roaches and drones against 2 base infestor.
No, I don't take a third as a response to your infestors. I took the third as a response to you getting 2 base lair - I don't make hydras or mutas but rather mass roaches when I scout you going infestors, and contain you. Even 2 base pure roach is better than 2 base infestor, that's why koreans go roach/hydra instead of quick infestors, and onky get infestors after taking their third.
Your arguing with the wrong person. I'm not the guy who wrote the original post. You should talk to the OP. I just think 2 base muta is the best 2 base build, and I agree with you that its not optimal. I suppose we disagree about 2 base infesot vs 2 base muta, and I don't care to argue it (it would be like arguing 3 rax vs 1 base roach opening as a better macro opener), but in such a case, neither player has a third or ground army, but the muta player gets total map control and get his third much quicker. With decent micro, the muta player will win a fight, but he could just go his own roach infestor with better econ.
When I go fast third vs your 2 base infestor, why would I ever attack you? I contai. You, grab a fourth, and then get my own infestors. Ill get broodlords eventually. The advantage is that. I see you are going infestors instead of a third or mass roach, so I just completely drone up while denying your third. Your 2 base infestor will no way beat 3 base pure roach, particualrly because even if you win the battle, I just remax instantly and trade more with your dying economy. Once I've contained you, or even just significantly denied your third, I get my own infestors, and win.
Hell, its just a matter of I get my third before you, and because you can't kill me for doing so, I'm ahead. That's it, that's all I'm saying, the build ends up ahead. Anything vcan still happen and you can still win, I'm just saying going 3 base before lair is better than 2 base lair.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Here's the replay of VIBE doing a 3 base roach/hydra build. Once he gets 3rd base up I feel like I have to kill that 3rd base or lose. You can't get enough gas to make enough banelings to kill hydras and have enough mutas to stop roaches.
http://drop.sc/79899
On December 27 2011 03:38 Kinshuk wrote:
SO i have a question - would you recommend going mutas to deal with mutas or is sticking with roach hydra infestor still fine... lately i've been having tons of problems against mutas especially because i cannot get my third or fourth up more so on large maps due to lack of mobility. This also forces me to just all in on 2 or 3 base and hope for the best.
If you have 2 base vs a muta user. You should have lost the game. I would do a 2 base roach/hydra or roach/ queen infestor timing attack and get it over with.
On December 27 2011 03:27 Iksf wrote:
Please correct me if im wrong but iv always opened with a pretty roach centric style and have really never had a problem with an equally skilled 2 base muta user.
The way I go about dealing with it is applying a lot of pressure with roaches and speedlings at around 7-8 mins. This forces a lot of spine crawlers generally as mutalisks will not be out in time (or if they are he will just die for obvious reasons). It is ofc perfectly possible for the muta user to hold the aggression if they are willing to delay their spire a bit (though quite commonly they just straight up die, but you discussed dealing with things like this in your guide.)
However I ensure all my roaches survive the push, not committing at all if there are too many spines. With my roaches I will not let you get a third until you have a substantial flock of mutas, honestly under 10 mutas my roaches simply do not care about, above that i can extend their life by use of burrow etc before finally retreating. Additionally if the mutas are attacking my roaches I can skimp on turrets just that bit longer to pump more drones/units and if they go for straight for my base their third will be even further delayed.
Using these roaches I can almost always guarantee a MUCH faster third, sometimes even 4th and hold off with spores and queens until my own spire completes. Then a switch into mutas myself, as well as considering I also have useful roach tech, (generally warren+speed+burrow, maybe +1) leaves me way ahead.
Is there something im missing, am i just playing bad people/inexperianced ML users or is this something you just don't really see?
I can't see how you can take a 3rd with mutas on the map. If you don't make much roaches, spines will easily take care of the threat. If you make a lot of roaches, then they're no way you can afford a 3rd, plus the money it takes to cover your bases with spores. Making spines doesn't hurt the muta user, it doesn't cost any gas.
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On December 27 2011 09:16 T.O.P. wrote:Here's the replay of VIBE doing a 3 base roach/hydra build. Once he gets 3rd base up I feel like I have to kill that 3rd base or lose. You can't get enough gas to make enough banelings to kill hydras and have enough mutas to stop roaches. http://drop.sc/79899
To me, that game shows exactly why knowing that the opponent doesn't have a third is so important. I tend to park a pair of Zerglings there just to intercept early drones, and if he takes a third I should scout it much sooner, before you did anyway. When you scouted it the third was already up and had a ton of creep there, I would've personally contested it harder, but ViBE just gained himself an eco advantage at the start that you had to catch up to and you had no choice but to drone. Which was a very good situation for him.
Once he gets Roaches up and his third is already up with a Sporecrawler, and Hydralisks on the way. Then yes, you will have to play extra hard even things up. I would think maybe harass the extractors for limiting his gas intake some, otherwise you will just get so far behind any frontal attack will just crush you. The third needs to be late or denied by a large Zergling force if it was going down before the lair finished, and perhaps you just needed to get a third at roughly the same time as he had to even things up because he sure wasn't aggressive towards you in the least.
Thanks for showing me a high level replay of 2base -> lateish third Muta versus quick 3 base Roach Hydra though. It really opens my eyes about how a good R/H player should play and how much more you have to defend in that scenario than you can be out there attacking the third with your Mutalisks. <3
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On December 27 2011 09:16 T.O.P. wrote:Here's the replay of VIBE doing a 3 base roach/hydra build. Once he gets 3rd base up I feel like I have to kill that 3rd base or lose. You can't get enough gas to make enough banelings to kill hydras and have enough mutas to stop roaches. http://drop.sc/79899Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 03:38 Kinshuk wrote:
SO i have a question - would you recommend going mutas to deal with mutas or is sticking with roach hydra infestor still fine... lately i've been having tons of problems against mutas especially because i cannot get my third or fourth up more so on large maps due to lack of mobility. This also forces me to just all in on 2 or 3 base and hope for the best. If you have 2 base vs a muta user. You should have lost the game. I would do a 2 base roach/hydra or roach/ queen infestor timing attack and get it over with. Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 03:27 Iksf wrote:
Please correct me if im wrong but iv always opened with a pretty roach centric style and have really never had a problem with an equally skilled 2 base muta user.
The way I go about dealing with it is applying a lot of pressure with roaches and speedlings at around 7-8 mins. This forces a lot of spine crawlers generally as mutalisks will not be out in time (or if they are he will just die for obvious reasons). It is ofc perfectly possible for the muta user to hold the aggression if they are willing to delay their spire a bit (though quite commonly they just straight up die, but you discussed dealing with things like this in your guide.)
However I ensure all my roaches survive the push, not committing at all if there are too many spines. With my roaches I will not let you get a third until you have a substantial flock of mutas, honestly under 10 mutas my roaches simply do not care about, above that i can extend their life by use of burrow etc before finally retreating. Additionally if the mutas are attacking my roaches I can skimp on turrets just that bit longer to pump more drones/units and if they go for straight for my base their third will be even further delayed.
Using these roaches I can almost always guarantee a MUCH faster third, sometimes even 4th and hold off with spores and queens until my own spire completes. Then a switch into mutas myself, as well as considering I also have useful roach tech, (generally warren+speed+burrow, maybe +1) leaves me way ahead.
Is there something im missing, am i just playing bad people/inexperianced ML users or is this something you just don't really see?
I can't see how you can take a 3rd with mutas on the map. If you don't make much roaches, spines will easily take care of the threat. If you make a lot of roaches, then they're no way you can afford a 3rd, plus the money it takes to cover your bases with spores. Making spines doesn't hurt the muta user, it doesn't cost any gas.
Mutas arnt out in time. I take my third at about 7:20 every single ZvZ unless there is a very good reason not too and then do a pressure to cover it. Taking a 3rd once mutas are out is very hard but theres little they can do if you take it before they have mutas out. Also mutas are surprisingly mineral heavy if you go for extremely quick mutas. If you go for a very fast spire you can definitely get mineral blocked if your forced to make spines and lings to hold a push. In addition they also lose a drone for each spine remember. It actually takes a lot of spines to hold off about 10-12 roaches and a pack of speedlings, especially on maps like metalopolis.
By pressuring the muta user like this you can gain an economic and map control (until mutas) advantage even without doing real damage. You also have an opportunity to kill the enemy zerg if they are unprepared for the aggression
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You can take a normally timed 50-60 third against 2 base muta and have spores up in time at the third. I don't like roach/hydra against mutas, I think mutas are the better composition in a straight up battle, but it's 3 base vs 2 base then and probably roach/hydra favored if he can deny the muta's third.
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EPT
