EPT[G] Zerg versus Zerg: Glaive Guillotine - Page 2
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Anyway who fears muta harass forgot that there is the perfect muta conter available at lair for the cost of one muta. If you don't know what i mean, watch broodwar zvz. And seeing no creepspread from hydra going players is just .... I wonder if people know that you can kill your own tumors, but people don't really like to use creep to their advantage alot, especially when going hydras where creep is important for the attack. Well 2012 is near, maybe then. But the guide is really impressive and well written i am amazed ! | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 25 2011 04:30 Skwid1g wrote: If someone stops harassing because you have a few infestors they are bad with mutas. Period. You split them up and have a spotting muta so that 1 fungal is NOT gg. That + bringing an overseer to kill creep tumors (thus making hydras l0l slow to defend 3 bases) and you can definitely keep them in their base longer. If a muta player plays the style correctly on a good muta map he'll only lose to a really strong (and well-controlled) push pre-ultra (usually while the hive is morphing). At least with the builds we're seeing today, obviously everything is subject to change, especially with the coming expansions. How are your splitted mutas going to do damage when i have a few queens, some spores and a few hydras? 2-4 mutas are not going to do it against a single spore well placed in my mineral line, my overlords are well positionned if i play right (which is not always the case ofcourse) and so what do you have left to attack given that i play defensively? Remember, you cant attack with more than a few mutalisk at a time (or else you need some crazy ass micro that you could still show but that i didnt see at my high master level). Like if I move back my hydras, mutas are going to clump to attack them if your micro is not godly. And you do not want anyway to attack hydras with mutas. I honestly do not see your mutalisk doing much damage before a big fight happens, and they shouldnt deny my third either. Also I'm not saying a better muta player couldnt kill me, I'm just saying his mutas dont gives him any advantage over my infestors play. That being said, you can agree or not with them but I remember during the gsl this week one of the casters quoted Day9 saying that fast infestors bo are the hard counters to muta bo and that we start to see more infestors rush on the ladder. And as someone else said, yes infestor rush is vulnerable to a fat roach all in pre-lair. But I see it as the only counter, personnaly. Also, about mutalisk transition: I used to transition out of muta after 5 (not 12) of them. It's enough to kill ov, to force spores, to, most of the time, make your opponent overreact and make a ton of hydras. Then you come with mass roaches and eat his hydra for free :D | ||
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Promethium
Australia32 Posts
On December 25 2011 04:30 Skwid1g wrote: This is sarcasm, right? Roach/hydra was REALLY 1a, and infestor usage isn't hard in the slightest. If you 1a muta ling bling you'll lose against a decent player that targets the banelings with tanks in TvZ, and in ZvZ it's 10x as bad. You have to make sure that you get his hydras with your banelings, that you split your mutas/banes vs. fungal, etc. And if it ends up being muta/ling/bling vs. muta/ling/bling its about as micro intensive as Zerg gets, so I don't see how you could say it's 1a. With that being said, I'm glad you mentioned getting carapace/melee upgrades and then transitioning into ultras, it's honestly the reason I feel the ling/muta/bling style is so strong. They want to get roaches to absorb the blings for the hydras and infestors for fungal, but both units are awful against ultras. It's like you didn't even read my post, or read it in a way that makes you seem like you know what you're talking about. Roach/Hydra/Infestor is much more micro intensive in an actual battle than Muta/Ling/Bling. Yes, you 1a the roaches. Then you micro your hydras either back away from banes or to attack the incoming mutas. You have to fungal the banes with your infestors, you have to fungal the Mutas with your infestors. What does the Muta/Ling/Bling player have to do? 1a your lings. 1a the mutas and spread them a bit. Move command your banes. The Roach/Hydra/Infestor player is the Terran microing his marines away from the banes and target firing with his tanks if you want a comparison. As for Muta vs Muta. It's a bunch of clicking and making sure you can get potshots. That's nothing very micro intensive about that because the ling/bling never actually comes into play. One player tries to attack a hatch or a flank and gets instantly dissolved by the defensive banes. Once one player gets too many mutas, he wins. Hardly a very big micro heavy play. With that being said, I never mentioned Ultralisks. You should really proofread your posts. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 25 2011 07:49 NrGmonk wrote: There was a very recent game in the GSL where two zergs mirrored each other for the first 6-7 minutes, camping on 2 base each with 2 spines and a few banelings for a super fast lair. They diverged when one player put up an infestation pit and the other put up a spire. Now, I know 2 base fast lair infestors isn't standard by any means, but the infestor play seemed to do pretty well against this 2 base muta, taking a third by relying on creep spread with queens plus his infestors. This doesn't mean I think standard 2 base infestor against muta is any good, because you usually get your lair much later than your opponent with infestors vs muta. But anyways, I think the game was yugioh vs july on belshir beach, group E of up/down, if you're interested in checking that out. I think I have seen that game actually, although I didn't take notes on it and I don't have a GSL pass so I'm unable to watch the VODs ( yes, even the up and down ones, sadly ). On December 25 2011 09:58 Natalya wrote: That being said, you can agree or not with them but I remember during the gsl this week one of the casters quoted Day9 saying that fast infestors bo are the hard counters to muta bo and that we start to see more infestors rush on the ladder. And as someone else said, yes infestor rush is vulnerable to a fat roach all in pre-lair. But I see it as the only counter, personnaly. Also, about mutalisk transition: I used to transition out of muta after 5 (not 12) of them. It's enough to kill ov, to force spores, to, most of the time, make your opponent overreact and make a ton of hydras. Then you come with mass roaches and eat his hydra for free :D Don't believe anything casters say simply because they are famous. Artosis says Mech is the way to go in TvP, and I can't say many terrans bar the fanboys of artosis believe it is. I mean ask Goody, the actual mech god, and HE will tell you that mech doesn't work in TvP. Also I wouldn't believe D9 to say the word 'hard counter' in any way shape or form unless he is joking due to him believing it is a bad word. As for the Mutalisk transition, maybe against a fast Infestor player you have to transition out of them faster, like at 5 or 7. But it certainly doesn't impede the Mutalisking player from getting map control and an uncontested third and maybe even a fourth. While the Infestoring player will have to fight for his third to get up while staying at home. I mean think of the things I can do to annoy your Infestors for a minute:
And I could go on and combine all of these just for the heck of it. I'm saying that while it might be possible to hold your third against a good Mutalisk player, it takes far, far more skill to pull it off than the Mutalisk player has to pull off. You need to have good fungals, you need to not have your Queens sniped, you can get your Infestors intercepted, you need to worry about counter attacks while I harass the third, you need to spread creep for your queens and protect it otherwise they will be slow as hell... It is far, far easier to mess with the Infestoring player as a Mutalisk player than it is the other way around where you fungal some of my Mutalisks and kill them. Plus the thing you can lose as the Infestor player can be Infestors, your third and stray Queens. These are far more important and gamechanging than a couple of Mutalisks could ever be. Fast Infestor styles do have these troubles, because any aggressive opponent, either with a lot of Roaches, Zerglings or Mutalisks, will get the third up faster. It takes a lot of fungals to kill off Roaches, and you can't really be certain that they will clump up. The only advantage I see from a fast Infestor player is that he can have a large Infestor ball up faster for sniping bases and the like. It doesn't give economic safety that Roach based or Mutalisk based styles do provide, while still hinging everything on the control of the Infestor player. It's not forgiving in the least. I use this midgame Spire style simply because I want to get a third up safely and without much unit making beforehand. Mutalisks are the perfect unit for that as they are amazing against pretty much everything Zerg uses in the early game, aside from mass Queens. Getting the third up and saturated fast is the only reason I even left my old timingattack based Roach style behind in favour of this. Mutalisks simply allow you to freely saturate your base within reason without having to worry about balancing unit vs drone all that much. I'm not a firm believer that there is such a thing as a hard counter for someone that goes Spire in the midgame of ZvZ where people have droned up almost equally. That includes Infestors, if played correctly and transitioned fast enough. Perhaps if I go for 12 Mutalisks as my style against Infestors, I will lose painfully to a push coming later. But I refuse to believe that if a Spire player is smart and transitions well, that he would still lose because the other player went 2 base Infestor. And even then I feel that the 2 base Infestor player relies more on the opponent going for Mutalisks than the Mutalisk player relying on the opponent to do anything. On December 25 2011 09:58 Promethium wrote: It's like you didn't even read my post, or read it in a way that makes you seem like you know what you're talking about. Roach/Hydra/Infestor is much more micro intensive in an actual battle than Muta/Ling/Bling. Yes, you 1a the roaches. Then you micro your hydras either back away from banes or to attack the incoming mutas. You have to fungal the banes with your infestors, you have to fungal the Mutas with your infestors. What does the Muta/Ling/Bling player have to do? 1a your lings. 1a the mutas and spread them a bit. Move command your banes. The Roach/Hydra/Infestor player is the Terran microing his marines away from the banes and target firing with his tanks if you want a comparison. As for Muta vs Muta. It's a bunch of clicking and making sure you can get potshots. That's nothing very micro intensive about that because the ling/bling never actually comes into play. One player tries to attack a hatch or a flank and gets instantly dissolved by the defensive banes. Once one player gets too many mutas, he wins. Hardly a very big micro heavy play. With that being said, I never mentioned Ultralisks. You should really proofread your posts. Roach/Hydra/Infestor might be more micro intensive if it is pitted against Muta/Ling/Bling, but there really isn't any micro aside from pre-battle positioning and fungalling against one another. It is boring in the way that there is almost no harassment, counter attacks or in-battle micro going on at all. It's just unit trading and postiioning and large army clashes until one player succumbs from economic disadvantage. Boring for spectators that don't understand ZvZ and slow for players that want to micro a lot. Now imagine Mutalisk versus Mutalisk, now there is nothing but harassment, counter attacks and defences going on. Once Infestors are transitioned into, Mutalisks can't roam the map uncontrolled or they face getting fungalled hard. So now you can just go on double Muta harass to evade the large muta flock of your opponent while still being safe with Queens and Infestors at home. There are so many bases being taken and so many being taken out by counter attacks that there really shouldn't be a time in the midgame where there isn't any action going on. It relies far far less on deathball versus deathball than Roach/Hydra does which is why I prefer to watch and to play it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If I see someone spining up and no roaches, I just go fast third (like always in ZvZ, I go third before lair, but maybe a bit faster so I can get creep for spores quicker), then defend with spores and get my own spire and push back with a superior economy. Kind of like if 2 people both go 2 base muta, the person who went lair later generally wins (provided they don't get hurt too much and defend adequately with spores and get lair in reasonable time, about 10-15 supply after the 2 base muta player). But this is vulnerable to lair tech roach busts, so I think a lot of ZvZ's can turn into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra in such scenarios. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 25 2011 18:23 Belial88 wrote: I think that going fast third is superior to 2 base muta. While 2 base muta can fight with roach/hydra/infestor 3 base on larger maps (just take far third), on smaller maps it's questionable. If I see someone spining up and no roaches, I just go fast third (like always in ZvZ, I go third before lair, but maybe a bit faster so I can get creep for spores quicker), then defend with spores and get my own spire and push back with a superior economy. Kind of like if 2 people both go 2 base muta, the person who went lair later generally wins (provided they don't get hurt too much and defend adequately with spores and get lair in reasonable time, about 10-15 supply after the 2 base muta player). But this is vulnerable to lair tech roach busts, so I think a lot of ZvZ's can turn into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra in such scenarios. I have fought many fast third Zergs with my Mutalisk style, and as long as I stay active and disallow that third, we will be on even grounds again. But certainly the person that gets the third up sooner has a slight advantage. I will gladly play some games with anyone that wants to experiment versus this style a lot sometime in the new year though. And I don't really believe that later spire = being ahead. I believe that the person that saved up the most gas and has not expended it on Banelings or Roaches as much will be ahead of the opponent. As long as you mined more gas or conserved more gas you will be ahead of a muta-opponent. But the advantage will be a single mutalisk or 2 at most, not gamechanging anyway unless you are fighting a bad opponent that somehow has a 7 mutalisk disadvantage because of bad gas management. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'd play some games with you. Belial.869. And I don't really believe that later spire = being ahead. I believe that the person that saved up the most gas and has not expended it on Banelings or Roaches as much will be ahead of the opponent. As long as you mined more gas or conserved more gas you will be ahead of a muta-opponent. But the advantage will be a single mutalisk or 2 at most, not gamechanging anyway unless you are fighting a bad opponent that somehow has a 7 mutalisk disadvantage because of bad gas management. Later spire means more econ, but if you aren't mining the gas then you aren't macro'ing properly. Have to get that gas quickly obviously. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 25 2011 19:11 Belial88 wrote: ^ You can't possibly deny the third with 2 base muta, your mutas won't be out in time. I'm talking about a faster third, as soon as I see spines I put up the third. I'll have 3 spores in time. I'd play some games with you. Belial.869. Later spire means more econ, but if you aren't mining the gas then you aren't macro'ing properly. Have to get that gas quickly obviously. I'm not talking about Mutalisks attacking your fast third, that obviously won't happen in the least. I'm talking about hard Zergling counter attacks with Baneling support. But I'll add you once my gaming computer is back online, had a pretty severe crash last friday. But with Christmas and holidays coming up I'll delay the formatting and reinstalling to after the new years  . My handles are Eik.995 , but I only own an EU account. Judging from your country I think you have an NA client, but it would be great if you had an EU account to boot ^^! | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 25 2011 17:33 Chaosvuistje wrote: Don't believe anything casters say simply because they are famous. Artosis says Mech is the way to go in TvP, and I can't say many terrans bar the fanboys of artosis believe it is. I mean ask Goody, the actual mech god, and HE will tell you that mech doesn't work in TvP. Also I wouldn't believe D9 to say the word 'hard counter' in any way shape or form unless he is joking due to him believing it is a bad word. As for the Mutalisk transition, maybe against a fast Infestor player you have to transition out of them faster, like at 5 or 7. But it certainly doesn't impede the Mutalisking player from getting map control and an uncontested third and maybe even a fourth. While the Infestoring player will have to fight for his third to get up while staying at home. I mean think of the things I can do to annoy your Infestors for a minute: Send a small pack of Zerglings to intercept them and do damage to them. You have to protect them using your own lings or even waste a fungal. Send random Mutalisks out to attack your Infestors, which you have to back up with Queens or be forced to retreat back. Send Zerglings and Banelings to attack the third, have you fungal them or attack them with Zerglings and Banelings of your own, and later come in with Mutalisks once you expended some energy. Day9 may not have said "hard counter", but something like "in answer to the recent shift in zvz metagame, some players began to use some infestor build". I personnaly translate that into infestors being the hard counter. So that if you manage to get an edge over me, I think it comes from your better execution rather than from your build. Whatever. And well, about your harass possibilities, I feel confident they are not so dangerous because unlike, for instance, a terran going for push and drops at the same time, you cant face my army if it's positioned relatively well. I can answer everything you could be doing, at least in theory. It means, according to me, that going muta do not gives you any edge over me, it would rather be the other way around. It's like going 14-14 against hatch first. I take 14-14 to be weaker, still you can surely win with it. So I can have a spine or two at my natural, queen block my choke and have roaches at my third, so that zerglings should not be able to find a weak spot. And have a few hydras to deal with "random" infestors. My mindset in sc2 has always been to be as passive as possible, to make just enough defense against any frontal push or harass and drone as hard as possible, mainly focusing on improving my macro and the execution of my defense. For instance against terran I dont use mutalisk to defend against drops but I rather have two control groups of zerglings to defend double drops, freeing gas for fast infestors broods. I'm quite comfortable in that position of passive macro player. You said muta is your unit of choice to drone your third freely. I'd say i'm safer as the infestor player as you have to face the threat of me moving out at any point. If you transition to roaches you lose the mobility advantage. | ||
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Sebast1aan
Belgium163 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm not talking about Mutalisks attacking your fast third, that obviously won't happen in the least. I'm talking about hard Zergling counter attacks with Baneling support. Roaches, and my own banelings. This is just completely separate from mutas, it's basically about how to defend against early mid-game game ling/bane aggression, to which you use roach/bane, and win with higher cost efficiency. Obviously early roaches kill your econ, but you take the third around 40ish supply and if you try to attack it with ling/bane, I'll have roach/bane to stop you. This will just delay your mutas more, or your push will be weaker than my defense if you go lair sooner. I don't think it's that revolutionary to say after 50 supply you just use 5-10 roaches with baneling support to prevent ling/bane from killing your third, or just completely killing you for that matter. Ah, I'm only on NA, so I suppose we'll just have to stick to discussion ;/ Well, there is a reason that Nestea and all the pros go roach/hydra in ZvZ recently. You can't defend 2 base lair speedroach with mutas, obviously - you know you use spines to defend against such aggression when going 2 base muta. So, you need roach/hydra to defend against 2 base roach when going fast third, so then naturally the game turns into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. Fast third is just king in ZvZ though, so that's why all the koreans are going toward roach/hydra recently, since someone is usually aggressive. If both players take a fast third though, then yea, the game should go muta vs muta, but even then if one player is using roach aggression, it may be safer to just go roach/hydra. I mean, literally, all I'm arguing is I see you put up 3 spines, so I put up a hatchery. Then I simply do the exact same thing you do, except on 3 bases, and on 5 and eventually 6 gas, and just defend with a few spores. I then have a higher econ and gas amount to just push you back once I've defended. You can't make lings when going 2 base muta in any substantial amount, and if you don't put up the spines, you are vulnerable to roach aggression. As in Nestea vs Slush, we saw that just making 10 roaches to push a 2 base muta player who doesn't have any spines is enough to do a ton of damage, so you have to make those spines, and then those lings can't really come out. Then your drone count is even further behind, and it's perfectly fine if I even make 6 spores, because once my 6 gas mutas come out, you are pretty screwed. So I can have a spine or two at my natural, queen block my choke and have roaches at my third, so that zerglings should not be able to find a weak spot. And have a few hydras to deal with "random" infestors. My mindset in sc2 has always been to be as passive as possible, to make just enough defense against any frontal push or harass and drone as hard as possible, mainly focusing on improving my macro and the execution of my defense. For instance against terran I dont use mutalisk to defend against drops but I rather have two control groups of zerglings to defend double drops, freeing gas for fast infestors broods. I'm quite comfortable in that position of passive macro player. You said muta is your unit of choice to drone your third freely. I'd say i'm safer as the infestor player as you have to face the threat of me moving out at any point. If you transition to roaches you lose the mobility advantage. Infestors take way too long to get enough energy to threaten mutas. By that point the muta player has 4 bases while you secure your third. If you have less than 10 infestors, I simply just pick off the infestors and force you to waste energy by sending single mutas at you to snipe them, and if you have hydra support, that takes even longer to get up and means your army is way smaller. Basically, by the time you have any credible force, the muta player is 200/200 and will just thrash you. Hell, then can even just make 8 mutas, force you to give up map control and go 2 base infestor, and then they just go 3 base mass roach. 2 base infestor gets stomped by mass roach play, and there's a reason in the higher levels it never works to rush infestors on 2 base in ZvZ anymore. You see in the GSL players will mass over 150 in roaches before getting infestation pit even, if not 200/200. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 25 2011 19:51 Belial88 wrote: Roaches, and my own banelings. This is just completely separate from mutas, it's basically about how to defend against early mid-game game ling/bane aggression, to which you use roach/bane, and win with higher cost efficiency. Obviously early roaches kill your econ, but you take the third around 40ish supply and if you try to attack it with ling/bane, I'll have roach/bane to stop you. This will just delay your mutas more, or your push will be weaker than my defense if you go lair sooner. I don't think it's that revolutionary to say after 50 supply you just use 5-10 roaches with baneling support to prevent ling/bane from killing your third, or just completely killing you for that matter. Well, there is a reason that Nestea and all the pros go roach/hydra in ZvZ recently. You can't defend 2 base lair speedroach with mutas, obviously - you know you use spines to defend against such aggression when going 2 base muta. So, you need roach/hydra to defend against 2 base roach when going fast third, so then naturally the game turns into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. Fast third is just king in ZvZ though, so that's why all the koreans are going toward roach/hydra recently, since someone is usually aggressive. If both players take a fast third though, then yea, the game should go muta vs muta, but even then if one player is using roach aggression, it may be safer to just go roach/hydra. I mean, literally, all I'm arguing is I see you put up 3 spines, so I put up a hatchery. Then I simply do the exact same thing you do, except on 3 bases, and on 5 and eventually 6 gas, and just defend with a few spores. I then have a higher econ and gas amount to just push you back once I've defended. You can't make lings when going 2 base muta in any substantial amount, and if you don't put up the spines, you are vulnerable to roach aggression. As in Nestea vs Slush, we saw that just making 10 roaches to push a 2 base muta player who doesn't have any spines is enough to do a ton of damage, so you have to make those spines, and then those lings can't really come out. Then your drone count is even further behind, and it's perfectly fine if I even make 6 spores, because once my 6 gas mutas come out, you are pretty screwed. Well I can definitely see your point in taking a fast third and defending it well with Roach/Bane against someone going for 3 spines at his nat. But the real question is, what stops me from getting my own third up while getting Roaches of my own? If all goes well I can do with less Roaches and Banes and respond with a round of that and be on even econ again. I think that if it is 2 base versus 2 base, the Mutalisking player will be able to saturate and drone more than a Roach player. If he goes for a quick third with a small hitsquad to prevent large counter attacks, then I will get my own third up as well knowing that you are going to macro up like I am. Then it becomes a question of what is the best unit comp for dealing with someone that has a delayed lair and a small force of Roach/Bane and a fast third, which I think is just a question of droning up more and mirroring him better, or even go Mutalisks off of 3 bases faster to get map control. Not directed at you or anything, but I feel that I need to clear things up for future replies. This guide is aimed at a 2 base versus 2 base situation, and denying of thirds. Not a 2 base versus fast 3rd base or fast 3 bases versus fast 3 bases situation( unless either player go muta ). Here are some of the replays I have collected so far, contains versus Muta play and versus roachhydra play: http://www.mediafire.com/?k235a6f6j1y9h9q | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Well I can definitely see your point in taking a fast third and defending it well with Roach/Bane against someone going for 3 spines at his nat. But the real question is, what stops me from getting my own third up while getting Roaches of my own? If all goes well I can do with less Roaches and Banes and respond with a round of that and be on even econ again. Duh, nothing ^^ It turns into a real macro game. It's sort of borderline where to go - you can go mutas, and that's the more macro oriented way of playing, but on smaller maps, or maps with harder to defend naturals/thirds (like Dual sight, for example), it's very possible you go into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. There's nothing stopping someone from taking their third, then making only roaches from 40 supply, and if you went mutas against that you'd be screwed, or at least have a difficult time (you can scout to see drone counts and roaches at the front obviously). Also, you generally can't really take a third in ZvZ without roaches. If you don't have your own roaches, then the other player can simply push with is 5-10 defensive roaches with 5-10 banelings as support, so you have to have roaches of your own to defend your third. That's kind of why it turns into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra at the top level right now. You make a number of defensive roaches, enough defensive roaches that you can really hurt someone going 3 base muta who isn't getting roach tech. But in an 'ideal' ZvZ, both players sit back, make 5 roaches and banes for their third, and then drone up and go mutas, particularly on larger maps. But the real question is, what stops me from getting my own third up while getting Roaches of my own? If all goes well I can do with less Roaches and Banes and respond with a round of that and be on even econ again. As a muta player? Roaches just kill your gas count, and leaves you little money to make spines. Your mutas will come late. But of course, nothing is stopping you from making a few roaches to defend your third or pressure the opponent's third if he goes without roaches, and then simply going mutas after just making 5-10 defensive roaches. Duh, that's why I'm saying that's the future of ZvZ! You can see Nestea vs Slush as an example of that, where Nestea makes some roaches to defend, and apply pressure against someone without roaches and going 2 base muta, and then he goes mutas himself - he defends with spores, eventually gets mutas out, and then crushes slush with a bigger econ muta ball. There were some mistakes in the game, and it wasn't quite as smooth as that, but you can see what Nestea was trying to do. I think that if it is 2 base versus 2 base, the Mutalisking player will be able to saturate and drone more than a Roach player. Of course. 2 base muta stomps 2 base lair roach pretty hard. Defend with mutas and spines, then push back and take a third with total map control and deny the 2 base roacher from his. But what's better than 2 base muta, is going 3 base muta vs 2 base muta OR 3 base roach/hydra vs 2 base roach. Against someone else going 3 base, you can go either way. If he goes for a quick third with a small hitsquad to prevent large counter attacks, then I will get my own third up as well knowing that you are going to macro up like I am. Not necessarily. If you don't have any roaches, then the 5-10 roaches with baneling support will shut down your third and force a cancel. There's a reason you don't go 3 base muta vs 2 base lair roach, because your only line of defence when going muta is spines. I mean, if I see someone take a fast third, with no roaches, I'll just go 2 base roach and force a cancel, BEFORE throwing down my own third. Yes, 5-10 roaches and a few banes (which should be leftover from early game) does a small hit on the econ, but it can do a lot of damage. You simply can't really hold it without your own roach warren, or spines. Can't put spines at a third yet. Then it becomes a question of what is the best unit comp for dealing with someone that has a delayed lair and a small force of Roach/Bane and a fast third, which I think is just a question of droning up more and mirroring him better, or even go Mutalisks off of 3 bases faster to get map control. The delayed lair is more macro, so he'll have more drones than you, who took a fast lair. You should realize that going lair cuts your drone count by about 10-20, so just going lair before I do means I will just naturally have a better economy, barring other factors of the game. Again, you can't secure that third without roach/bane or a HUGE amount of ling/bane. So you are forced to make roaches if you want to play an econ game. However, it's entirely possible if you see someoen go third, and you went third, you just go mutas. Nothing wrong with that. 3 base means not as many roaches like a 2 base speedroach player. You have to be careful, because if the other player just makes the third and only makes roaches, he has a good chance to simply kill you or kill your third, and then defend with spores at home. He can then go 3 base roach/hydra on smaller maps, or just mutas on 3 base vs your 2 base muta. So that's the rub. If you both go third, the game can go either way. If someone is massing roaches, yea, you could go mutas, but you'd be much, much safer by going hydra to defend. If someone isn't massing roaches, and droning up, I'd say mutas are the better way to go. I'd hesitate to say that 3 base roach/hydra is better than 2 base mutas, since 2 base muta can just take a faraway third, but on shorter maps, 3 base r/h can definitely beat muta, and roach/hydra can definitely win if they deny the third over and over. I think the muta player just gets map control once they get mutas out and beats 3 base r/h, so.... I just think mutas are better. I agree with you on that. I'm just saying 3 base > 2 base. If I see someone going 2 base muta, I just take my third, make spores, get lair 10 supply later than you, then push you back with twice as many mutas and win. If someone is going 2 base speedroach, you can't go both third and mutas, and I think 3 base roach/hydra is a better response to 2 base roach instead of 2 base muta, because the roacher can just take a fast third, or he can spore it up at home. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 25 2011 21:11 Belial88 wrote: Duh, nothing ^^ It turns into a real macro game. It's sort of borderline where to go - you can go mutas, and that's the more macro oriented way of playing, but on smaller maps, or maps with harder to defend naturals/thirds (like Dual sight, for example), it's very possible you go into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. There's nothing stopping someone from taking their third, then making only roaches from 40 supply, and if you went mutas against that you'd be screwed, or at least have a difficult time (you can scout to see drone counts and roaches at the front obviously). Also, you generally can't really take a third in ZvZ without roaches. If you don't have your own roaches, then the other player can simply push with is 5-10 defensive roaches with 5-10 banelings as support, so you have to have roaches of your own to defend your third. That's kind of why it turns into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra at the top level right now. You make a number of defensive roaches, enough defensive roaches that you can really hurt someone going 3 base muta who isn't getting roach tech. But in an 'ideal' ZvZ, both players sit back, make 5 roaches and banes for their third, and then drone up and go mutas, particularly on larger maps. As a muta player? Roaches just kill your gas count, and leaves you little money to make spines. Your mutas will come late. But of course, nothing is stopping you from making a few roaches to defend your third or pressure the opponent's third if he goes without roaches, and then simply going mutas after just making 5-10 defensive roaches. Duh, that's why I'm saying that's the future of ZvZ! You can see Nestea vs Slush as an example of that, where Nestea makes some roaches to defend, and apply pressure against someone without roaches and going 2 base muta, and then he goes mutas himself - he defends with spores, eventually gets mutas out, and then crushes slush with a bigger econ muta ball. There were some mistakes in the game, and it wasn't quite as smooth as that, but you can see what Nestea was trying to do. Of course. 2 base muta stomps 2 base lair roach pretty hard. Defend with mutas and spines, then push back and take a third with total map control and deny the 2 base roacher from his. But what's better than 2 base muta, is going 3 base muta vs 2 base muta OR 3 base roach/hydra vs 2 base roach. Against someone else going 3 base, you can go either way. Not necessarily. If you don't have any roaches, then the 5-10 roaches with baneling support will shut down your third and force a cancel. There's a reason you don't go 3 base muta vs 2 base lair roach, because your only line of defence when going muta is spines. I mean, if I see someone take a fast third, with no roaches, I'll just go 2 base roach and force a cancel, BEFORE throwing down my own third. Yes, 5-10 roaches and a few banes (which should be leftover from early game) does a small hit on the econ, but it can do a lot of damage. You simply can't really hold it without your own roach warren, or spines. Can't put spines at a third yet. The delayed lair is more macro, so he'll have more drones than you, who took a fast lair. You should realize that going lair cuts your drone count by about 10-20, so just going lair before I do means I will just naturally have a better economy, barring other factors of the game. Again, you can't secure that third without roach/bane or a HUGE amount of ling/bane. So you are forced to make roaches if you want to play an econ game. However, it's entirely possible if you see someoen go third, and you went third, you just go mutas. Nothing wrong with that. 3 base means not as many roaches like a 2 base speedroach player. You have to be careful, because if the other player just makes the third and only makes roaches, he has a good chance to simply kill you or kill your third, and then defend with spores at home. He can then go 3 base roach/hydra on smaller maps, or just mutas on 3 base vs your 2 base muta. So that's the rub. If you both go third, the game can go either way. If someone is massing roaches, yea, you could go mutas, but you'd be much, much safer by going hydra to defend. If someone isn't massing roaches, and droning up, I'd say mutas are the better way to go. I'd hesitate to say that 3 base roach/hydra is better than 2 base mutas, since 2 base muta can just take a faraway third, but on shorter maps, 3 base r/h can definitely beat muta, and roach/hydra can definitely win if they deny the third over and over. I think the muta player just gets map control once they get mutas out and beats 3 base r/h, so.... I just think mutas are better. I agree with you on that. I'm just saying 3 base > 2 base. If I see someone going 2 base muta, I just take my third, make spores, get lair 10 supply later than you, then push you back with twice as many mutas and win. If someone is going 2 base speedroach, you can't go both third and mutas, and I think 3 base roach/hydra is a better response to 2 base roach instead of 2 base muta, because the roacher can just take a fast third, or he can spore it up at home. Fair enough, I see where you are coming from. Although I've been straying away from Roaches for some time now in favour of Zergling Baneling. As I find that if the Roach/Bane player messes up and his baneling support has vanished, I will get a commanding lead as his Roaches will be overwhelmed. As a previous 2 base speedroacher myself, I have faced too many a game where I was simply thwarted a third because the spores were sniped off while he was at home defending with mass spines and Mutalisks if I did make an attack. Sure his third is delayed, but my Roaches were completely forfeit if I didn't get through the Spinecrawler wall. So I have strayed away from that style in favour of an, in my opinion, more reactive and reliable 2 base Mutalisk style. We are pretty much on the same page though, I agree that 3 base Roach/Hydra is superior to 2 base later third Mutalisk play. It's all about the map layout and if you can deny that third from going down long enough to overwhelm him. I will continiue to play this style until I hit a solid brick wall against a certain strategy. Who knows what that will be. But I think that eventually everything will come down to 3 base versus 3 base in ZvZ as you said. It's all about stylistic choices on how to get that third though, and 2 base Mutalisk is one of them . | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 25 2011 19:51 Belial88 wrote: Infestors take way too long to get enough energy to threaten mutas. By that point the muta player has 4 bases while you secure your third. If you have less than 10 infestors, I simply just pick off the infestors and force you to waste energy by sending single mutas at you to snipe them, and if you have hydra support, that takes even longer to get up and means your army is way smaller. Basically, by the time you have any credible force, the muta player is 200/200 and will just thrash you. Hell, then can even just make 8 mutas, force you to give up map control and go 2 base infestor, and then they just go 3 base mass roach. 2 base infestor gets stomped by mass roach play, and there's a reason in the higher levels it never works to rush infestors on 2 base in ZvZ anymore. You see in the GSL players will mass over 150 in roaches before getting infestation pit even, if not 200/200. What are you talking about? Why should I wait so long before pushing? I mean I can max out but I don't have to. 4 Infestors spawn with 75 energy. With a queen helping it's enough to kill every muta if they clump. That's somewhat of a threat. After my third is secure, I can make 7-8 hydras, 15 roaches and push. At that point, your earlier third didnt give you enough of an advantage to compensate for the mutas that will nearly not do any damage at all. You may have a little more roaches than me, but it's likely that i'll have an upgrade advantage, and that I can use one or two fungals on your roaches. It's pretty difficult for you to counter attack if you decided to make roaches because you are not faster than me, and a few spores shut down ur muta haras as well. Unless i do something really wrong I can do good damage with that push, like trade all you raoches for my lower roach count, kill you mutas and sometimes your third. About infestors being too slow, doesnt really matter since you cant know where my infestors are and so you are taking the risk to lose all your mutas if you attack the wrong way. Unless you move them while constantly spreading them but well, then again queens + a few hydras is ok. I dont have to get out of the protection of my spores at any point if i play it right. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I do agree that 2 base muta is superior to 2 base roach, but a problem is that the roach guy can take a very fast third and defend with lots of spores, I suppose more than you used, and you can't get yours. I think r/h on 3 base as a response to 2 base roach is better, as someone can seee you going W base muta and just go 3 base muta. When I used to go 2 base muta, I always thought 'damnit' when I saw someone take a fast third. There's just nothing you can do about it. Natalya, you can only secure your third after infestors come out... that's a really long time. If I saw someone doing 2 base roach infestor though, id go fast third, then pure rooach, and overrun you. I don't know what level you play at but 2 base infestor is a horrible build noww. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
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