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United States8476 Posts
Note: + Show Spoiler +A lot of people are having the misconception that I'm advocating the exact build order that Brown used in this game. I am not. Rather, I'm pointing out individual points/lessons that I find Protosses seem to overlook or forget or tactics that seem smart/underused.
Recently I watched a PvZ in the GSL that was so different from every single other PvZ. It didn’t involve some crazy strategy like mass carriers and it wasn’t a brand new undiscovered timing. What was so different about it is that it was purely macro game, possibly the most macro oriented PvZ I’ve ever witnessed on the GSL stage. In fact, it was the Protoss’s [g] oal to get into the late game. And no, it wasn’t a PvZ where where the Protoss turtled on 2 or 3 base for the entire game. There were very intelligent movements, amazing tech transitions, and lots of attempted harass from our Protoss hero.
The Protoss behind this PvZ was SlayersBrown. Previously unknown, his only significant result was defeating LiquidHero in a GSL qualifier. But this season he qualified for Code A and defeated Superstar, Ryung, and Losira all 2-0. And according to SlayersCella, Brown almost never loses to zergs on the korean ladder, so he must be doing something right. The particular game I’m refering to is game one between Brown and Losira on Daybreak. Yes, this is the Losira that is close to a ZvP sniper with a 72% win ratio vs protoss. Here is the vod and I believe game 1 is free to watch. I recommend everyone to watch the vod first before reading the rest of this post. I believe all Protoss can learn from the concepts employed by Brown and without further ado, here they are:
1. Not every PvZ build has to have some 2 base timing.
For some reason, most PvZs in the GSL have some 2 base timings incorporated. This has worked previously when zergs were unfamiliar with such timings and when the maps were smaller. But now as zergs become better at defense and we have large macro maps like daybreak, a macro game can be a very good choice.
Not only did Brown not do a 2 base timing in this game, he barely did any pressure off of 2 base. The extent of the pressure was one voidray and one pheonix(which threatens more phoenix) and a fake 4 zealot poke. And neither of these pressure were even committed pressures. The voidray serves a huge purpose as you’ll see in the next point and the phenoix is very useful for scouting. The 4 zealots were immeidately pulled back as soon as Brown realized he couldn’t do anay damage with them. The most important part of this point is that Brown is not afraid to play a completely macro game versus zerg and in fact he encourages it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XvVpN.jpg)
9:50 3rd!!!
2. Just one voidray can allow you to take a fast 3rd on large maps.
Brown is not the first Protoss to use this tactic, as Huk has done this many a time recently. However, not enough people know about it. Just one voidray prevents roach based attacks from the zerg until he can get a mass of either hydras, mutas, corruptors, or infestors. At this time, you can easily take a third while massing zealot/sentry to deal with lings and teching to colossi to deal with either infestors or hydras.
3. Aggressively expanding as protoss is powerful.
I was amazed by how fast Brown took a 4th in this game. Although I first thought it was a reaction to the fast broodlord tech, I later realized that in both his games versus Superstar, he got a 4th base equally as fast. And with good sim city, army movement, observer placement, and cannon spam, Brown was able to defend his bases versus both harass and frontal attacks. By aggressively expanding, Brown was also able to pull slow broodlords to side expansions while counterattacking Losira’s expansions with his more mobile army.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h2E5a.jpg)
14:00 4th!!!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GWTZs.jpg)
19:00 5th to divert attention
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/olhu0.jpg)
22:45 2nd attempt at 5th
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Tjer6.jpg)
27:00 6th and 7th started at the same time
4. Mass those observers
Brown makes the most observers I’ve ever seen in a PvZ. Not only does he open 2 observers from the start, he eventually goes up to 3 and replaces them whenever they die. With these observers, Brown is able to quickly scout tech switches, observe army movement from the zerg, and find all burrowed units. Most importantly is the army movements. Many times throughout the game, Brown is able to spot ling runbys and intercept them before they do damage. In addition, Brown is able to see Losira’s army moving towards one of his expansions and thus counterattack one of Losira’s expansions. Observers are so cheap and useful that I believe the most important reason people don’t get more of them in PvZ is that they refuse to waste their precious time on their robo, which brings me to my next point.
5. Double robo all the way+ Show Spoiler +Note: This is in reference to an internet meme. I'm not suggesting to always get double robo in every single PvZ.
Everyone knows that robo units are the strong units in PvZ midgame, but many people refuse to build more than 1 robo. I believe that especially with this heavy expanding style of Protoss, double robo is the way to go. First, the double robo makes up for the fact that with the expanding style, your robo is going to be later than if you had started colossi off of 2 base. Double pumping colossi also allows your final max army to be more colossi heavy, strengthening the final power of your army. The other obvious advantage is that you can surprise your opponent with a switch to double immortal very quickly. However, the final advantage that many people don’t think of is that you have extra robo time to build auxilary units like warp prisms and observers. In total this game, Brown makes about 6 observers and 3 warp prisms with speed. I’ll admit Brown’s warp prism harrass wasn’t that impressive, but that can be attributed a lot to Losira’s great defense. However, the lesson to learn from this is that with 2 robo, you can afford great luxuries that you wouldn’t be able to otherwise. Any zerg will tell you how annoying warp prisms are and we’ve already been through how useful mid-late game observers are.
6. Mothership tech should be the norm versus broodlord tech.
All too many times Protoss go into autopliot and go the same techroute no matter what they face. For example, a standard tech route would be 3 base colossi off 1 robo into templar for storm. This seems simple enough and it was great back in the early days of starcraft 2 when roach hydra corruptor was all the rage and broodlords were way less popular than they are now(This had mostly to do with the infestor buff). But now that hive tech zerg is very common as the zerg endgame, templar transitions make much less sense. As great as high templar are, the fact is that no matter how many high templar you have, you won’t beat 10+ broodlords with just high templar alone. In fact, I advise most people that templar are great to supplement an anti broodlord army, but you should never get them versus impending broods or in response to broods.
Brown’s tech route was double robo colossi straight into mothership and only after the mothership was started did he start his templar archives. Clearly, Brown was timing all his tech so that he would have the mothership and archon/templar at the same time. He was aiming for archon toliet+storm as his counter to mass broodlord, which I believe is the absolute safest and solid counter. Any ground based army just simply will not work. Voidrays are countered too easily by infestors + corruptors, and 1 or 2 carriers will not make enough of a difference in a fight as one single mothership.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zwurp.jpg)
Brown adds his templar archives after his mothership starts.
The reason this tech pattern isn’t seen much is that there’s not much of a precedent for it. In fact, I’ve never seen this exact transition in a pro game and the only similar situation I’ve seen is both Huk and Hero transitioning from storm/archon/immortal directly into mothership instead of colossi to deal with broodlords.
In conclusion: Colossi+templar is great versus any lair tech, but you don’t need both of them vs fast broodlords. Mothership is the way to go.
7. Carriers are part of the ultimate Protoss deathball
Near the end of the game, Brown begins adding 3 stargates for carriers to add to his huge deathball. In fact, he even sacs probes to do so. The fact is that while a maxed mothership/colossi/templar/archon/stalker deathball is near unbeatable, that deathball with carriers IS unbeatable. The only counter to carriers zerg has is corruptors, which are completely negated by vortex and storm. Yes, carriers are hard to get, but if you mothership/colossi/templar/archon tech, I’m sure you can afford carriers. Why not voidrays you might ask? The fact is that voidrays are much easier to deal with than carriers in that deathball, because while corruptors don’t do as well versus voidrays, fungal and neural do very well, and infestors are much scarier than corruptors.
8. Vortex is pretty sick
Ok, we all know this. Here’s a picture:
Before: After:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TLdhu.jpg)
This game has to be the most well played late game PvZ I've ever witnessed. It is clear that Brown almost always plays and practices macro PvZ and he has a better understanding of it than any other protoss because of it. It's also amazing how much you can learn from just one game. If you only watch one PvZ for educational purposes, watch this one, and if you have to pick one up and comer protoss the rise up, it should be Brown. I, for one, will be playing close attention to SlayersBrown in the future.
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Nice....looks like there is a true macrostyle now.
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I kind of disagree on the voidray into quick third point, if only because of Mondragon. If someone can find the link to that post/pic, you'll know what I'm talking about.
It basically said that if toss uses voids, you can hit a timing and simply make more roaches than that one stargate can even handle.
however, if the zerg plays the counter game like you said and only does the correct UNIT response, then the quick third works. Thoughts?
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Good points, definitely somethings to keep in mind when playing in a PvZ. However, you have to be very good and you have to know what you are doing when trying to execute something like this. When aggressively expanding you it is very important to keep in mind that you need to know what your enemy is doing, and this is why I really like the mass observers that you mentioned (You don't nececarilly need mass obs in order to get map control and to follow army movement, but it's a lot easier to do so if you do have them. All you need is good army movement, constant zealot/dt scouting around larger maps and control of the middle/xel'naga towers. I know, it's a lot, but it is doable if you're good enough).
The only thing I don't really like is the double robo. Going for Templars /w storm is something I like a lot more than Robo tech. At the Day[9] Daily that was live during the NASL last night Day[9] talked about the advantages of going for templars over Robo and he did a very good explanation as to why it's better. In that Daily he also talked about how HerO played vs Sen in the Semi-Finals of the NASL, as HerO also played much more 'conservative' with very little fake pressure but still enforced a longer macro game based on starving your opponent on 3 bases (You can't really do this style of play with Robo tech, Collossi are just too immobile (as well as immortals) and they don't give you the flexibility Archons/HTs do. However you do need the robo relatively early for the obs [which HerO lacked in the game, he only had one he used to scout expansions with, so it's good to see you bringing up how important a lot of obs are, as HerO could've controlled the map a bit easier even if he did manage to do it without the mass obs]).
Anyways thanks for the post. Always nice to observe newer ways of approaching matchups.
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This reminds me a lot of rsvp's PvZ, although rsvp uses storm as often has he does colossi for his mid-game composition. rsvp's PvZ is pretty nasty. Fast third, fast fourth, fleet beacon as soon as hive starts like clockwork.
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2. Just one voidray can allow you to take a fast 3rd on large maps.
Brown is not the first Protoss to use this tactic, as Huk has done this many a time recently. However, not enough people know about it. Just one voidray prevents roach based attacks from the zerg until he can get a mass of either hydras, mutas, corruptors, or infestors. At this time, you can easily take a third while massing zealot/sentry to deal with lings and teching to colossi to deal with either infestors or hydras.
i think that one void ray for pressure isn't new, and i think that quick thirds involving it aren't necessarily the way to go. the problem with taking a third behind 1 void ray is that your tech for dealing with mutalisks/drops is delayed. an economy for zerg can be rolling by 10.5 minutes against a protoss player doing a passive voidray/expand opening. while the style for opening itself isn't bad, i think that against the aggression that a zerg player can lay on isn't necessarily wonderful. as an alternative, i think that Huk's quick third w/ pure sentries opening is better. it gives you a similar quick third, and it lets you put pressure on very quickly after your third is secured. mutas are less of a threat, since they can't show their faces behind the type of economy that minimalist gateway units allow.
3. Aggressively expanding as protoss is powerful.
I was amazed by how fast Brown took a 4th in this game. Although I first thought it was a reaction to the fast broodlord tech, I later realized that in both his games versus Superstar, he got a 4th base equally as fast. And with good sim city, army movement, observer placement, and cannon spam, Brown was able to defend his bases versus both harass and frontal attacks. By aggressively expanding, Brown was also able to pull slow broodlords to side expansions while counterattacking Losira’s expansions with his more mobile army.
depending upon the map, this is 100% true assuming that you can abuse sim city with cannons on the map that you're using. what i wonder though is how this will work once the viper is available to zerg players.
the only way to deal with this type of style in brood war is to use moving-drops, defilers, and multi-pronged attacks. protoss is weak to all of that, but the one key unit that aids it isn't available in this game. with proper sim city, without defilers, a defensive protoss in brood war can't be touched. paired with the ability to warp in units like dark templar, to emulate that type of style in starcraft 2 is actually pretty scary, even with a unit like the viper.
5. Double robo all the way
Everyone knows that robo units are the strong units in PvZ midgame, but many people refuse to build more than 1 robo. I believe that especially with this heavy expanding style of Protoss, double robo is the way to go. First, the double robo makes up for the fact that with the expanding style, your robo is going to be later than if you had started colossi off of 2 base. Double pumping colossi also allows your final max army to be more colossi heavy, strengthening the final power of your army. The other obvious advantage is that you can surprise your opponent with a switch to double immortal very quickly. However, the final advantage that many people don’t think of is that you have extra robo time to build auxilary units like warp prisms and observers. In total this game, Brown makes about 6 observers and 3 warp prisms with speed. I’ll admit Brown’s warp prism harrass wasn’t that impressive, but that can be attributed a lot to Losira’s great defense. However, the lesson to learn from this is that with 2 robo, you can afford great luxuries that you wouldn’t be able to otherwise. Any zerg will tell you how annoying warp prisms are and we’ve already been through how useful mid-late game observers are.
the problem with double robo is that it hinders the growth of a gateway army to stay alive early on. how do you make up for taking a quick third and doubling up on robos after getting stargate tech? the amount of cash you invest into economy and technology leads me to believe that there isn't much available to defend with by the 13 minute mark. is it safe to allow everything to hinge upon warp prism harassment? in particular, what happens when a zerg goes in for an attack at the 12 minute mark with a boatload of ling/roach? one void ray can't help out against something like that. is a style like brown's flexible enough to deal with this threat without relying on a warp-prism warp-in trade of third expansions?
6. Mothership tech should be the norm versus broodlord tech.
All too many times Protoss go into autopliot and go the same techroute no matter what they face. For example, a standard tech route would be 3 base colossi off 1 robo into templar for storm. This seems simple enough and it was great back in the early days of starcraft 2 when roach hydra corruptor was all the rage and broodlords were way less popular than they are now(This had mostly to do with the infestor buff). But now that hive tech zerg is very common as the zerg endgame, templar transitions make much less sense. As great as high templar are, the fact is that no matter how many high templar you have, you won’t beat 10+ broodlords with just high templar alone. In fact, I advise most people that templar are great to supplement an anti broodlord army, but you should never get them versus impending broods or in response to broods.
Brown’s tech route was double robo colossi straight into mothership and only after the mothership was started did he start his templar archives. Clearly, Brown was timing all his tech so that he would have the mothership and archon/templar at the same time. He was aiming for archon toliet+storm as his counter to mass broodlord, which I believe is the absolute safest and solid counter. Any ground based army just simple will not work. Voidrays are countered too easily by infestors + corruptors, and 1 or 2 carriers will not make enough of a difference in a fight as one single mothership.
The reason this tech pattern isn’t seen much is that there’s not much of a precedent for it. In fact, I’ve never seen this exact transition in a pro game and the only similar situation I’ve seen is both Huk and Hero transitioning from storm/archon/immortal directly into mothership instead of colossi to deal with broodlords.
In conclusion: Colossi+templar is great versus any lair tech, but you don’t need both of them vs fast broodlords. Mothership is the way to go.
7. Carriers are part of the ultimate Protoss deathball
Near the end of the game, Brown begins adding 3 stargates for carriers to add to his huge deathball. In fact, he even sacs probes to do so. The fact is that while a maxed mothership/colossi/templar/archon/stalker deathball is near unbeatable, that deathball with carriers IS unbeatable. The only counter to carriers zerg has is corruptors, which are completely negated by vortex and storm. Yes, carriers are hard to get, but if you mothership/colossi/templar/archon tech, I’m sure you can afford carriers. Why not voidrays you might ask? The fact is that voidrays are much easier to deal with than carriers in that deathball, because while corruptors don’t do as well versus voidrays, fungal and neural do very well, and infestors are much scarier than corruptors.
8. Vortex is pretty sick
motherships and the archon toilet are absolutely the counter to brood lords, no doubt about it. adding in carriers seems questionable though. as a game-ending unit, sure, they're good. but i don't think they beat mothership/colossus/archon/stalker against any zerg unit composition. carriers are beautiful at maintaining your lead, since they're impossible to take down once you lose your supply lead against a protoss player. point being, i think that by advertising carriers as the ultimate protoss death ball, you're short-changing the original composition that enabled you to produce carriers.
cool overview of the brown vs losira games 
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Oh i didnt realise Brown was on SlayerS, thats awesome!! I had been wondering for a while why a team hadn't picked him up (They obviously had) during his awesome performances in GSL
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Ha, I just watched the game and then found your great articel.
Really nice write up, but I have to disagree at one point.
The carrier switch had no effect, because the first carriers came after the last big fight.
Carrier are good in the late game, but this not a good example for this.
Also
9. Moving bad idea all your broodlords in a vortex is a.
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Basically what rsvp has been doing for a long time. Seriously people should watch his stream, he's always months ahead of everyone
I've been doing this for a long time too so I'll add some thoughts:
- The double robo isn't necessarily for mass colossi production, it's usually to be able to make prims and observers without having to stop colossi production for a while.
- I get ht archives when fleet beacon is warping in, so a little sooner.
- Carriers are badass! Void rays die to fungal while carriers die to basically nothing. Once you have mothership/carrier/archon/ht/collo he'll need A LOT of corruptors. (as in one army of corruptors won't even cut it)
- You can safely get the third at the 9:00 min mark. it's best to go 1robo 4gates with immortal/stalker/sentry. Robo bay is usually at 9:20
- Scout! Use those observers constantly! Once he goes hive you need an explosion of stargates to deal with broodlords.
- Vs late lair you can take a third and be agressive at the same time because immortal/stalker/sentry with a lot of ffs can't die to roach/ling without roach speed.
- i don't agree with "1 voidray stops all roachling attacks". You need cannons with gateway if you go colossi, or chargelot/storm after an air into fast third build.
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Can't help it:
What am I talking about since months in every PvZ thread? Get this third before 10mins or die to any player that holds your 2base pressure and then chooses the right tech (usually mutas as it is pretty easy to do damage to a protoss that plays of less eco and wasted some units early)
Protoss has all the tools to compete with zerg at any stage of the game, they only have to take bases fast enough to be able to use them (which agreed can be tough, at least on some maps)
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On December 06 2011 02:19 listal wrote:
motherships and the archon toilet are absolutely the counter to brood lords, no doubt about it. adding in carriers seems questionable though. as a game-ending unit, sure, they're good. but i don't think they beat mothership/colossus/archon/stalker against any zerg unit composition. carriers are beautiful at maintaining your lead, since they're impossible to take down once you lose your supply lead against a protoss player. point being, i think that by advertising carriers as the ultimate protoss death ball, you're short-changing the original composition that enabled you to produce carriers.
You're underselling the AA range carriers give you. Without carriers, you're fighting siege-range broodlords with archons and void rays. Void rays have to move into fungal range in order to attack the broodlords, so they get owned. And archons rely on big vortexes to get in range. If for any reason you're unable to vortex a big chunk of Z's broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, you're screwed if you don't have carriers.
That said, carriers wind up being the last piece of the puzzle you add because otherwise, you die. But they are important.
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damn it, now every Zerg player is going to blame NrGmonk for bringing this up, thx alot for fucking up our win ratios
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On December 06 2011 02:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:19 listal wrote:
motherships and the archon toilet are absolutely the counter to brood lords, no doubt about it. adding in carriers seems questionable though. as a game-ending unit, sure, they're good. but i don't think they beat mothership/colossus/archon/stalker against any zerg unit composition. carriers are beautiful at maintaining your lead, since they're impossible to take down once you lose your supply lead against a protoss player. point being, i think that by advertising carriers as the ultimate protoss death ball, you're short-changing the original composition that enabled you to produce carriers.
You're underselling the AA range carriers give you. Without carriers, you're fighting siege-range broodlords with archons and void rays. Void rays have to move into fungal range in order to attack the broodlords, so they get owned. And archons rely on big vortexes to get in range. If for any reason you're unable to vortex a big chunk of Z's broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, you're screwed if you don't have carriers. That said, carriers wind up being the last piece of the puzzle you add because otherwise, you die. But they are important.
the point Monk made in his article is that motherships are what are countering brood lords; i went along with that. i think the point you are making in response to my reaction is different. also, void rays as an end-game unit to counter brood lords aren't within the scope of this article on Brown vs Losira. that said...
i'm by no means underselling any advantage that carriers provide you. my gripe within the context of this article is that the brunt of your army is going to be archons, a mothership, double-robo colossus, and stalkers. that doesn't leave much room for a carrier, especially when you're building a slightly larger than normal economy to help support your defensive, high-gas position.
the way that carriers are folded into the fray is as replacement units as the game continues. you lose units, you replace them with carriers. that's a very interesting approach to increase the utility of investing in carriers. to start mixing them into your army before the mothership/archon/stalker/colossus combination is a huge mistake though, since you need your base army to deal with the initial very heavy broodlord/corruptor combination. as the game goes on, the carriers being folded in will be much more effective since not nearly as many corruptors can continue being built. i guess in this way, i agree with you here
i'm not sure about the point about missing a vortex though. isn't that a fringe case? i don't play protoss, so i'm not sure how complicated executing a toilet really is. in late game, high-level pvzs that i observe and play in, i've never actually seen a botched vortex. it's usually a drawn-out dance between the two players until a vortex or two seals the deal. really, i'm playing out stephano vs kiwi from IPL3 in my mind!
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Sorry do you mean that this guy know how to play toss ?
Need a korean terran explanation now and everything will be back at normal 
Serious mod : I think it could lead to another type of PvX , more macro style
Terran and protoss are switching from a lot of all-in/cheese timing-push to a lot more macro style and zerg are taking some "all-in " on their hands ( like the one roaches/ling in ZvP )
I think the next updates is a big " max pressure " style kinda timing-push with a lot of macro behind ... ( real starcraft )
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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 02:06 reikai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I kind of disagree on the voidray into quick third point, if only because of Mondragon. If someone can find the link to that post/pic, you'll know what I'm talking about.
It basically said that if toss uses voids, you can hit a timing and simply make more roaches than that one stargate can even handle.
however, if the zerg plays the counter game like you said and only does the correct UNIT response, then the quick third works. Thoughts?
I know the games you're referring to. Mondragon's opponent, Zeerax, was going 2 stargate with 1 gateway iirc while massing air units. Brown's build is much much different, getting only 1 voidray and 1 pheonix while macroing off of 5 gates.
On December 06 2011 02:11 Magnitoo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Good points, definitely somethings to keep in mind when playing in a PvZ. However, you have to be very good and you have to know what you are doing when trying to execute something like this. When aggressively expanding you it is very important to keep in mind that you need to know what your enemy is doing, and this is why I really like the mass observers that you mentioned (You don't nececarilly need mass obs in order to get map control and to follow army movement, but it's a lot easier to do so if you do have them. All you need is good army movement, constant zealot/dt scouting around larger maps and control of the middle/xel'naga towers. I know, it's a lot, but it is doable if you're good enough).
The only thing I don't really like is the double robo. Going for Templars /w storm is something I like a lot more than Robo tech. At the Day[9] Daily that was live during the NASL last night Day[9] talked about the advantages of going for templars over Robo and he did a very good explanation as to why it's better. In that Daily he also talked about how HerO played vs Sen in the Semi-Finals of the NASL, as HerO also played much more 'conservative' with very little fake pressure but still enforced a longer macro game based on starving your opponent on 3 bases (You can't really do this style of play with Robo tech, Collossi are just too immobile (as well as immortals) and they don't give you the flexibility Archons/HTs do. However you do need the robo relatively early for the obs [which HerO lacked in the game, he only had one he used to scout expansions with, so it's good to see you bringing up how important a lot of obs are, as HerO could've controlled the map a bit easier even if he did manage to do it without the mass obs]).
Anyways thanks for the post. Always nice to observe newer ways of approaching matchups.
I'm only suggesting 2 robo as an option and talking about its merits. I never said it was mandatory.
On December 06 2011 02:19 listal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the problem with double robo is that it hinders the growth of a gateway army to stay alive early on. how do you make up for taking a quick third and doubling up on robos after getting stargate tech? the amount of cash you invest into economy and technology leads me to believe that there isn't much available to defend with by the 13 minute mark. is it safe to allow everything to hinge upon warp prism harassment? in particular, what happens when a zerg goes in for an attack at the 12 minute mark with a boatload of ling/roach? one void ray can't help out against something like that. is a style like brown's flexible enough to deal with this threat without relying on a warp-prism warp-in trade of third expansions?
I never said anything about double robo right away after a fast 3rd. I just mean eventually, as Brown did. Leave 2 robos as an option when you're on 3 base.
On December 06 2011 02:29 Paljas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ha, I just watched the game and then found your great articel.
Really nice write up, but I have to disagree at one point.
The carrier switch had no effect, because the first carriers came after the last big fight.
Carrier are good in the late game, but this not a good example for this.
Also
9. Moving bad idea all your broodlords in a vortex is a.
Even though the carrier switch didn't affect the game doesn't make the point less true. Basically what I'm saying is that if a smart player like Brown is doing a carrier transition, it must not be too horrible.
On December 06 2011 02:31 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Can't help it:
What am I talking about since months in every PvZ thread? Get this third before 10mins or die to any player that holds your 2base pressure and then chooses the right tech (usually mutas as it is pretty easy to do damage to a protoss that plays of less eco and wasted some units early)
Protoss has all the tools to compete with zerg at any stage of the game, they only have to take bases fast enough to be able to use them (which agreed can be tough, at least on some maps)
Don't really agree with this at all.
On December 06 2011 02:46 listal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2011 02:36 kcdc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2011 02:19 listal wrote:
motherships and the archon toilet are absolutely the counter to brood lords, no doubt about it. adding in carriers seems questionable though. as a game-ending unit, sure, they're good. but i don't think they beat mothership/colossus/archon/stalker against any zerg unit composition. carriers are beautiful at maintaining your lead, since they're impossible to take down once you lose your supply lead against a protoss player. point being, i think that by advertising carriers as the ultimate protoss death ball, you're short-changing the original composition that enabled you to produce carriers.
You're underselling the AA range carriers give you. Without carriers, you're fighting siege-range broodlords with archons and void rays. Void rays have to move into fungal range in order to attack the broodlords, so they get owned. And archons rely on big vortexes to get in range. If for any reason you're unable to vortex a big chunk of Z's broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, you're screwed if you don't have carriers. That said, carriers wind up being the last piece of the puzzle you add because otherwise, you die. But they are important. the point Monk made in his article is that motherships are what are countering brood lords; i went along with that. i think the point you are making in response to my reaction is different. also, void rays as an end-game unit to counter brood lords aren't within the scope of this article on Brown vs Losira. that said... i'm by no means underselling any advantage that carriers provide you. my gripe within the context of this article is that the brunt of your army is going to be archons, a mothership, double-robo colossus, and stalkers. that doesn't leave much room for a carrier, especially when you're building a slightly larger than normal economy to help support your defensive, high-gas position. the way that carriers are folded into the fray is as replacement units as the game continues. you lose units, you replace them with carriers. that's a very interesting approach to increase the utility of investing in carriers. to start mixing them into your army before the mothership/archon/stalker/colossus combination is a huge mistake though, since you need your base army to deal with the initial very heavy broodlord/corruptor combination. as the game goes on, the carriers being folded in will be much more effective since not nearly as many corruptors can continue being built. i guess in this way, i agree with you here i'm not sure about the point about missing a vortex though. isn't that a fringe case? i don't play protoss, so i'm not sure how complicated executing a toilet really is. in late game, high-level pvzs that i observe and play in, i've never actually seen a botched vortex. it's usually a drawn-out dance between the two players until a vortex or two seals the deal. really, i'm playing out stephano vs kiwi from IPL3 in my mind!
Don't know what you guys are arguing about. You seem to share similar views from my point of view.
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On December 06 2011 02:37 Roynalf wrote:damn it, now every Zerg player is going to blame NrGmonk for bringing this up, thx alot for fucking up our win ratios
I've been advocating a mass cannon on your fourth base a lot and I'm Zerg -.- Turtle Protoss always has been strong but Protoss have simply not found a reliable, safe way to get a fast third without it getting sniped by mass roaches yet and stay way too passive on it.
What Brown and Losira did was as close to what would be the apitome of PvZ and ZvP respectively, a dance about territory where neither party is allowed to overcommit. The only thing that stopped Losira from leveling the playing field is put everything he built up for in a single Vortex together with 4 archons. If not he will have heavily contested the Protoss' fourth and keep him from getting up the unstoppable production-engine of a 4 base toss. it is a shame too, because we would have seen the next level in ZvP development.
Great write up NrGmonk!
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I watched missed it today but watched it now in HQ, pretty awesome game I must say.
However what would you do if your opponent goes muta/ling? Add a second stargate and pump phoenixes while getting blink/storm? It must be pretty hard to take bases if you face a good muta/ling user?
Second what if he had not get that vortex down, the game could had been over! Feels very dependant you get use of the mothership.
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Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable?
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On December 06 2011 02:46 listal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:36 kcdc wrote:On December 06 2011 02:19 listal wrote:
motherships and the archon toilet are absolutely the counter to brood lords, no doubt about it. adding in carriers seems questionable though. as a game-ending unit, sure, they're good. but i don't think they beat mothership/colossus/archon/stalker against any zerg unit composition. carriers are beautiful at maintaining your lead, since they're impossible to take down once you lose your supply lead against a protoss player. point being, i think that by advertising carriers as the ultimate protoss death ball, you're short-changing the original composition that enabled you to produce carriers.
You're underselling the AA range carriers give you. Without carriers, you're fighting siege-range broodlords with archons and void rays. Void rays have to move into fungal range in order to attack the broodlords, so they get owned. And archons rely on big vortexes to get in range. If for any reason you're unable to vortex a big chunk of Z's broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, you're screwed if you don't have carriers. That said, carriers wind up being the last piece of the puzzle you add because otherwise, you die. But they are important. i'm by no means underselling any advantage that carriers provide you. my gripe within the context of this article is that the brunt of your army is going to be archons, a mothership, double-robo colossus, and stalkers. that doesn't leave much room for a carrier, especially when you're building a slightly larger than normal economy to help support your defensive, high-gas position. the way that carriers are folded into the fray is as replacement units as the game continues. you lose units, you replace them with carriers. that's a very interesting approach to increase the utility of investing in carriers. to start mixing them into your army before the mothership/archon/stalker/colossus combination is a huge mistake though, since you need your base army to deal with the initial very heavy broodlord/corruptor combination. as the game goes on, the carriers being folded in will be much more effective since not nearly as many corruptors can continue being built. i guess in this way, i agree with you here i'm not sure about the point about missing a vortex though. isn't that a fringe case? i don't play protoss, so i'm not sure how complicated executing a toilet really is. in late game, high-level pvzs that i observe and play in, i've never actually seen a botched vortex. it's usually a drawn-out dance between the two players until a vortex or two seals the deal. really, i'm playing out stephano vs kiwi from IPL3 in my mind!
Sounds like we pretty much agree that carriers are good, but they're the last piece you add.
As for how you wind up unable to vortex a big enough chunk of Z's army, there's a lot of things that can happen. Motherships are slow and there's a bit of casting delay, so it can happen that you simply miss. But more often, it's things like Z sending in waves of corruptors to force you to spend your vortexes, and then hitting again before your energy rebuilds. Sometimes Z sacrifices a ton of corruptors to kill your mothership, and then you're 5 minutes away from having a vortex. Other times, Z is able to split up his army enough that you just aren't able to vortex a big enough chunk.
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this reminds me a lot of incontrol's play such an amazing ZvP although incontrol is probably above this level
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EPT
