|
On December 06 2011 07:10 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:06 kcdc wrote:On December 06 2011 05:07 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 04:58 K3Nyy wrote:
I really did not like how Brown went for Colo after taking a 3rd. Isn't Blink + 1 Robo for Immortals, Warp Prism and Obs a much better choice? Good Blink micro with FFs really nullifies Roaches and lings from a defensive position. Then you can transition into Colo or whatever.
But I feel like taking a 3rd then going Colo leaves you really vulnerable to aggressive Zergs. They don't even have to win the battle, if they just trade while teching and expanding, it can really leave the Protoss far behind. I think a big problem with people on the teamliquid strategy forums is that they either swear by colossi or swear against them. Colossi are just as viable as immortal/blink stalker/templar. It's just that both have their strengths and weaknesses. In Brown's specific scenario, I have to absolutely agree with his choice to go colossi. Against a largely ling/infestor into broodlord composition, colossi are infinitely more useful than immortal/twilight tech. The problem is that templar are much further away on the tech tree and if you went for that path, you wouldn't be able to take a 4th as fast nor would you be able to pressure as much as Brown did with just 1 or 2 colossi. In addition, templar alone are worse versus broodlords than colossi alone, so Brown would have been behind in that way as well. I've largely moved away from colossi for 2 reasons: (1) the tech path lacks versatility since it's expensive and isn't useful against mutas; and (2) colossus builds tend to rely on a lot of stalkers, and stalkers are awful. I've got a spreadsheet that calculates unit strength based on a (slightly complicated) formula involving health, DPS and cost, and it's pretty impressive how crappy stalkers' stats really are. Granted, the chart ignores range and mobility which are the blink stalker's most important attributes, but check out the efficiency numbers based on the raw stats. -Zerglings are the most cost-efficient unit in the game when you assume all units stand still and are able to attack at the same time, so I've set zergling efficiency at 1 for a benchmark -Zealots are Protoss's most cost-efficient unit in a straight stand and smash fight at .88, or 88% as cost efficient as a zergling. -Probes and sentries are Protoss's least efficient combat units at .30 and .26 respectively. -Stalkers, at .37, have only slightly better stats vs light units than probes. If you've ever 4-gated in PvP and had your stalkers trapped and forced to fight probes, you know you're making an even trade. You do need some stalkers in PvZ because they're mobile and they shoot up (the mutalisk's efficiency is .31 which is close to the stalker's .37; compare that to the stimmed marine's .63 and you understand why 50 mutas works against P but not T), but IMO, the best way to play macro PvZ is to make as few stalkers as you can get away with. That said, colossi are pretty good. Is it possible to go colossi without making a shit-ton of stalkers? Care to share the spreadsheet? I'd like to see a few numbers that I really wonder about, corruptors and immortals for example =)
The formatting is so bad that it'd be illegible.
Immortals are good vs armored (.617) but roaches are actually even better (.654). The numbers don't include the effect of hardened shield or the roach's high supply cost.
Corruptors stats are pretty normal for air units. .377 vs massive and .292 vs regular. These numbers don't include their base 2 armor which is a huge deal against units like phoenixes.
The numbers are mostly just fun and don't tell you much about the game. But they confirm obvious suspicions like the fact that stalkers and hydras are crap and that banshees are unreasonably good combat units given their mobility.
|
Yeah this type of toss play is finally starting to see light and is really showing how powerful protoss is when playing in a macro game not from behind (by behind I mean doing a 2 base aggression then getting shut down hard where normally they are behind after that).
I also hate archon toilet 
|
I think Losira should have won this game, and maybe if he hadn't voluntarily put all his broodlords into the vortex we might all be talking about how this was the most well played late game ZvP ever witnessed, and not the other way around.
Apart from not putting everything into the archon toilet; can the OP add any advice for zerg players trying to deal with this type of Protoss deathball?
|
On December 06 2011 08:09 barrykp wrote:
I think Losira should have won this game, and maybe if he hadn't voluntarily put all his broodlords into the vortex we might all be talking about how this was the most well played late game ZvP ever witnessed, and not the other way around.
Apart from not putting everything into the archon toilet; can the OP add any advice for zerg players trying to deal with this type of Protoss deathball?
what else is he going to do with the broodlords.
attack an invisible army? (you realize the overseers are in the vortex)
Go back to the spines that are actually really far away from broodlords?
Also
Q: Vortex was super-effective. In that situation if Zerg’s Broodlords also get sucked it do you thank them?
A: All corrupters were sucked it so Zerg player had to also put Broodlords in. But then when I inserted archons in he would’ve regretted it. That is why I had those 6 Archons, it was my plan all along.
- Brown
You *have* to put the broodlords in. you're going to lose them anyways IMO
Plus he can't see the archons go into the vortex. Sure he can assume it's the archon toilet, but you're gonna lose those broodlords anyways.
|
United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:09 barrykp wrote:
I think Losira should have won this game, and maybe if he hadn't voluntarily put all his broodlords into the vortex we might all be talking about how this was the most well played late game ZvP ever witnessed, and not the other way around.
Apart from not putting everything into the archon toilet; can the OP add any advice for zerg players trying to deal with this type of Protoss deathball?
Losira's biggest problem was that he ran out of overseers. He only had 2 and one got vortex'd the other died. Losira had no other choice but to go into the vortex and thus lose all his broodlords. Imo the best thing Losira can reasonably do better is get more overseers and spread out broodlords.
|
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer.
I agree with the sentiments that Protoss should watch this game as a guide, but again in this particular game Losira WAS on the verge of winning before getting hit with Vortex, and lost everything. It was a shame to see a player play that well and lose like that.
Losira's biggest problem was that he ran out of overseers. He only had 2 and one got vortex'd the other died. Losira had no other choice but to go into the vortex and thus lose all his broodlords. Imo the best thing Losira can reasonably do better is get more overseers and spread out broodlords.
I'm sorry, but saying he should of had more overseers is ridiculous. All his BroodLords were dying in either case once the Vortex landed. The broodlords were the backbone of his army that he built the entire game, there was no recovering from that. I don't see how a reasonable person can watch that game and come to the conclusion that the better player lost due to a game mechanic rather than being outplayed.
|
United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer.
I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won.
Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers.
|
On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers.
The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit.
There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical.
User was warned for this post
|
United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:I agree with the sentiments that Protoss should watch this game as a guide, but again in this particular game Losira WAS on the verge of winning before getting hit with Vortex, and lost everything. It was a shame to see a player play that well and lose like that. Show nested quote +Losira's biggest problem was that he ran out of overseers. He only had 2 and one got vortex'd the other died. Losira had no other choice but to go into the vortex and thus lose all his broodlords. Imo the best thing Losira can reasonably do better is get more overseers and spread out broodlords. I'm sorry, but saying he should of had more overseers is ridiculous. All his BroodLords were dying in either case once the Vortex landed. The broodlords were the backbone of his army that he built the entire game, there was no recovering from that. I don't see how a reasonable person can watch that game and come to the conclusion that the better player lost due to a game mechanic rather than being outplayed.
How is that answer ridiculous when it's the correct answer? The guy asked what Losira could have done better and I answered it. Getting overseers and spreading corruptors/broodlords is the correct answer. I agree that Brown probably had that game no matter what Losira did but Losria could have minimized loses by spreading and getting more overseers.
|
United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit.
As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game.
On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:
There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical.
Both rude and untrue. A the highest levels, there's tons of stuff in football that a professional football coach or player would understand while the average fan would not.
|
On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game.
If you think there's nothing wrong with Vortex after watching that game, then i don't know what to say. Get outplayed the entire game, be on the verge of losing, but get saved by 1 spell, that crushes the opponents ENTIRE army in three seconds. OK. Your entitled to your opinion.
|
On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:
There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical. Both rude and untrue. A the highest levels, there's tons of stuff in football that a professional football coach or player would understand while the average fan would not.
Stop pulling the "You don't understand card" card. Its what people do when they have no other viable arguments. They resort to "You don't understand the game as well as I do, thus I'm right"
|
On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical.
you can't be more wrong, Losira never had the game won.
you know what losira could have done better?
10 (+3) corruptors can take a mothership out in ~ 3 real life seconds... just don't fucking clump all your corruptors so 1 single vortex can grab 20 of them... like losira did, and don't engage the motership with the broodlords that near... you can easily send only corruptors to take out the mothership + colossus and then, you go with broodlord infestor.
takes ~ 4 starcraft minutes to get another mothership with 100 energy
PS: you can always try to neural the mothership and burn it energy by vortexing the protoss army...
|
United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:45 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game. If you think there's nothing wrong with Vortex after watching that game, then i don't know what to say. Get outplayed the entire game, be on the verge of losing, but get saved by 1 spell, that crushes the opponents ENTIRE army in three seconds. OK. Your entitled to your opinion.
I never said said there's nothing wrong with vortex. I made my argument and you've done nothing to refute it except hurl insults.
On December 06 2011 08:48 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game. On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:
There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical. Both rude and untrue. A the highest levels, there's tons of stuff in football that a professional football coach or player would understand while the average fan would not. Stop pulling the "You don't understand card" card. Its what people do when they have no other viable arguments. They resort to "You don't understand the game as well as I do, thus I'm right"
I made my argument. You didn't refute it or try to refute it at all.
|
It felt like LosirA played into Brown's hands by being so passive early on, if Protoss gets up to 4gas that quickly he becomes unbelievably powerful.
I can see a lot of Zergs switching back to the heavy roach aggressive style with lots of drops again due to lategame ZvP struggles (like when voidray/colossus was popular) and I can't see Brown dealing with that.. he's teching to Colossus off of 1 Voidray and a few sentries while trying to secure a third.
|
On December 06 2011 08:13 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:09 barrykp wrote:
I think Losira should have won this game, and maybe if he hadn't voluntarily put all his broodlords into the vortex we might all be talking about how this was the most well played late game ZvP ever witnessed, and not the other way around.
Apart from not putting everything into the archon toilet; can the OP add any advice for zerg players trying to deal with this type of Protoss deathball? Losira's biggest problem was that he ran out of overseers. He only had 2 and one got vortex'd the other died. Losira had no other choice but to go into the vortex and thus lose all his broodlords. Imo the best thing Losira can reasonably do better is get more overseers and spread out broodlords.
lol losiras problem wasnt having enough overseers, he had plenty of infestors that could fungal and show vision for the broodlords. If losira had split up his broods and corruptors, he would've had a better chance, and Losira was definitely ahead that game and outplayed Brown up to that point. His broodlords were 3/3 with level 3 melee attacks also. He picked off Browns army constantly, but died to an archon toilet.
|
On December 06 2011 08:45 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game. If you think there's nothing wrong with Vortex after watching that game, then i don't know what to say. Get outplayed the entire game, be on the verge of losing, but get saved by 1 spell, that crushes the opponents ENTIRE army in three seconds. OK. Your entitled to your opinion.
Personally I think Vortex is imbalanced and should be removed but you're really exaggerating the game.
Losira did not outplay Brown the whole game and he wasn't on the verge of losing. Having only two overseers at the final engagement and having them sucked in the Vortex really didn't help either.
I still don't understand why Losira put the Broods in the Vortex. To me, that's the most counter intuitive thing to do.. did he not expect Archons? Throwing the Broods in the Vortex was just like giving the game away. Even with no detection, grab a few ovs and morph them and salvage what you can.
|
On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical.
The folks who work are not too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. However, a greater understanding is unconditionally built from both experience and time investment. What is ironically more juvenile is ignoring points made against you and claiming that Losira played perfectly to bring in a subtle balance whine.
Reading your points, I believe the assessment of "you don't understand high level play" applies pretty well to you. None of your arguments have any specificity to them. "He was in command, he had the game won," etc. Losira was never so far ahead of Brown that game. Brown kept up economically, and while his saturation wasn't the best, Losira played really passively but never could kill Brown because of the relatively equal economic footing.
I guess you could say that Brown was going to lose that battle, I wouldn't object to that. However, there aren't really amazing ways for Protoss players to deal with mass corrupter/broodlord without something like carrier/templar. I don't think the archon toilet was a big issue, and Losira could have done a better job of producing overseers and splitting his air forces.
|
losira didn't outplay Brown, lol, he could not even deny Browns expansions, Brown was expanding almost as fast as losira, if anything losira got outplayed because Brown managed to get the tech and the bases he wanted when he wanted. He predicted the gameplan of losira, and won the game.
losira lost when all his corruptors got sucked by a single vortex.
seriously, 15 broodlords is a very silly composition, isn't something like 7 broods 7 ultralisks + infestors good too?
(just asking, he had the upgrades...)
|
So listal brought it up, but 1 voidray into quick third is not new. In fact, Huk used a similar variant of this build against Leenock in group play of the GSL this season. It was on the winter belshir beach. Leenock recognized the build, turtled with the minimum defense, and then went pure muta with air and ling upgrades. He constantly harassed Huk as he increased his muta ball. Huk did not take much damage, but whenever Leenock had the chance, he would engage with mutaling against Huk's stalker ball. Leenock wouldn't lose many mutas, so he was effectively trading lings for stalkers.
How would brown's style deal with a mass muta style? I think that on daybreak, managing the mutaling trades would be better because the distance between your 3rd and natural is smaller and you would be able to fight in chokes most of the time. By the same token, however, it would be easier to get to 6 bases on Daybreak while containing with this muta ball.
(I personally think +1 shields are part of the answer (at least with this aggressive protoss macro style) Cannons never die vs lings, and the +1 shields helps stalkers vs the bounce of the muta. Also, you will probably eventually want archons anyway, which obviously benefit the most from +1shields. )
By the way, Daybreak is especially suited to this style of play. Turtle protoss on Daybreak is so good because of the way the expansions work. As you take more bases and cannon them up, you are limiting zerg's counter attacking ability, because almost every path passes by an expansion (which you will eventually have cannoned up).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
