EPTThis is definitely the future of the matchup, and I hope that HotS doesn't screw that up.
[D] Lessons learned from Brown vs Losira - Page 6
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
This is definitely the future of the matchup, and I hope that HotS doesn't screw that up. | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On December 06 2011 15:00 MyTHicaL wrote: i was only able to watch teh 1st game.. being as im not stupid enough to actually pay for vods... I don't see your point whatsoever. This game was won by a godly perfect vortex- had nothing to do with air play whatsoever... time wasted. In your first breath you call paying customers stupid and in the next discredit a well thought out post without addressing any of his points. Well done, you'll last long here. | ||
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Rayjin
Germany205 Posts
Without much pressure, its realy hard to win against Zerg in a macro game and you realy need alot of luck! | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
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-iNko
Lithuania160 Posts
 learned few things from this, thx | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
To me it looks like there was a huge timing window where Brown had no good answer to his BL army. No MS/vortex yet, no templars/archons, only stalkers+colossi. So why didn't Losira push earlier, and just.. like.. win the game ? | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On December 06 2011 17:31 Tobberoth wrote: It seems perfectly understandable that protoss SHOULD be playing macrostyle versus Zerg, and I'm surprised it has taken this long for pros to really start to shine using it. I mean, going for a fast deathball and attacking works, but what's even better? Getting a huge economy and thus forcing the zerg to attack into your deathball. The basic idea has always been that the zerg army melts to the deathball, but since the zerg has many more bases, he can in theory replenish fast enough to stop the deathball push... but if the toss has half the map, how will that even matter? This is definitely the future of the matchup, and I hope that HotS doesn't screw that up. you can't play the way Brown played in some maps..., and losira was playing for the late game, we don't really know how it would have beem, if losira decided to put some real pressure earlier... | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On December 06 2011 20:32 rpgalon wrote: you can't play the way Brown played in some maps..., and losira was playing for the late game, we don't really know how it would have beem, if losira decided to put some real pressure earlier... Thing is though, we have been so used to the dogma being that zergs expand, protoss pressure. If protoss don't pressure, the zerg outmacro them. Isn't it kind of nice to imagine a matchup where it can be the other way around as well... where the zerg is forced to pressure the protoss. It might indeed not work on all maps, but I don't think the point should be that Losira didn't pressure so an impossible build worked, the point should be that you can play protoss successfully in such a way that the zerg is forced to pressure the toss to not be outgamed. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On December 06 2011 16:04 Belisarius wrote: This thread makes me indescribably depressed about HotS. Too true  To think that after a year and a half we are only just beginning to figure out how PvZ should look in the late game, and within a year all that will be flushed out and people have to start all over. And then two years after that the same thing happens. ='( Should be fun in 5 years when we finally have a developed game though... | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
I'm not sure why Zergs are so offended at Vortex. Sure it's a little silly, but is it really fair otherwise that infestor/broodlord is autowin? | ||
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KinQuh
Finland810 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote: Hi, I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game. This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce. I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable? Archon Toilet deters Z from just running around with a 30 pack of Blord/Infestor and rolling everything P has. It is abusive indeed, but until you fix Protoss' shitty AA options then you really don't have a choice but to keep Archon Toilet in the game. HOTS will try and fix that with the Tempest, but I see that as being a huge failure likely. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Also, Losira's control in the big fight was awful. Non-GM NA ladder Zergs know better than to A-move all of their corruptors and overseers in 1 group on a mothership with archon support. Just splitting them up in 2 groups or sending the corruptors before the broodlords would have kept the game pretty even. It was like Losira had never seen late-game PvZ either. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On December 07 2011 01:59 kcdc wrote: It was like Losira had never seen late-game PvZ either. He's normally killed his opponent with roaches by then  | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 07 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote: I watched the first game. I think it's way way too early to think this is the "future of PvZ" or anything of the sort. I'm still pretty skeptical how such a build would hold up vs 3-base roach -> muta. The issue with Protoss macro has always been the difficulty in securing your 3rd base and beyond and defending multiple fronts with your relatively immobile army. Losira basically did no real harassment or flanking or multi-pronged attacks and was content to just macro up and try to fight head-on with max armies which is basically what a Protoss player wants. As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. Never said any of this was the future of PvZ. All of these "lessons" are just possibilities meant to widen the scope of PvZ. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On December 07 2011 01:59 kcdc wrote: Finally got a chance to see the VOD--really impressive how wrong the casters were about who was ahead. They were acting like Brown had next to no chance, when the game was actually dead even. Have they just never seen late-game PvZ? Also, Losira's control in the big fight was awful. Non-GM NA ladder Zergs know better than to A-move all of their corruptors and overseers in 1 group on a mothership with archon support. Just splitting them up in 2 groups or sending the corruptors before the broodlords would have kept the game pretty even. It was like Losira had never seen late-game PvZ either. I'm just a plat-diamond player so I'm gonna assume I'm wrong but it seems to me that off an equal economoy like in this game protoss has ways to counter broodlord infestor. Naming three: a. Mass HT - feedback plus stroms kills the 1st army into archons for the follow up b. Voidray + HT - feedback the infestors and laugh at the exploding broodlords. c. Browns exact army in this game without the archon exploit - vortex half the army, kill the 1st half, wait, kill 2nd half. It seems to me that most of Protoss experiance against broodlord/infestor is from an economical disadvantage, going 3base against 4 or 5. With the style of play shown by Brown here you reach the end game on at least 4 bases and at equal ground with the zerg. With 8-10 gas geysers the match up becomes very different. Now, I want to make one thing clear, Brown played amazingly and as a pro-player he should use every single advantage he can get. I hold nothing against him for using the archon toilet exploit. However, I still think this mechanic is deeply flawed and should be removed, heck, blizzard supposedly removed it in 1.3.0 with the invulnrabillity patch to units leaving the vortex, I don't know if the fact that broodlords still don't scatter fast enough is intended or an oversight but I find it very unsatisfing to watch. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 07 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote: I watched the first game. I think it's way way too early to think this is the "future of PvZ" or anything of the sort. I'm still pretty skeptical how such a build would hold up vs 3-base roach -> muta. The issue with Protoss macro has always been the difficulty in securing your 3rd base and beyond and defending multiple fronts with your relatively immobile army. Losira basically did no real harassment or flanking or multi-pronged attacks and was content to just macro up and try to fight head-on with max armies which is basically what a Protoss player wants. As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. I agree that vortex is unreasonably strong, but Zerg has some unreasonably strong advantages in the match-up as well. Zerg can easily secure a economic advantage, they have roaches which are insanely cost-efficient against every equal-cost Protoss ground composition, they have mutas which are almost impossible to deal with, and they have a production mechanic which allows them to completely flip their composition less than a minute's game time. Because Zerg can get so far ahead in bases and send endless waves of whatever composition they choose, Protoss needs some "over-powered" end-game stuff that is cost-efficient against anything Z throws at them. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 07 2011 03:33 IcemanAsi wrote: I'm just a plat-diamond player so I'm gonna assume I'm wrong but it seems to me that off an equal economoy like in this game protoss has ways to counter broodlord infestor. Naming three: a. Mass HT - feedback plus stroms kills the 1st army into archons for the follow up b. Voidray + HT - feedback the infestors and laugh at the exploding broodlords. c. Browns exact army in this game without the archon exploit - vortex half the army, kill the 1st half, wait, kill 2nd half. It seems to me that most of Protoss experiance against broodlord/infestor is from an economical disadvantage, going 3base against 4 or 5. With the style of play shown by Brown here you reach the end game on at least 4 bases and at equal ground with the zerg. With 8-10 gas geysers the match up becomes very different. Now, I want to make one thing clear, Brown played amazingly and as a pro-player he should use every single advantage he can get. I hold nothing against him for using the archon toilet exploit. However, I still think this mechanic is deeply flawed and should be removed, heck, blizzard supposedly removed it in 1.3.0 with the invulnrabillity patch to units leaving the vortex, I don't know if the fact that broodlords still don't scatter fast enough is intended or an oversight but I find it very unsatisfing to watch. Yes, Protoss does have ways to deal with that composition besides the super archon toilet that Brown managed to land in that game (although your suggestions aren't the best ways to do it--feedback doesn't have as much range as you'd need), but you have to remember that those sorts of archon toilets are a mistake on the Zerg's part. If Zerg controls better, those archon toilets can't happen. People see archon toilets like that and think it's way overpowered, but what really happened is that Losira made a huge micro mistake, and Brown simply punished that mistake. A good analogy for that level of micro mistake might be in ZvZ where one player goes muta and the other goes roach-infestor. If the mass muta player screws up horribly and lets 20 mutas get caught in a fungal, he quickly loses. The lesson here isn't that mutas don't work in ZvZ--it's that you shouldn't micro them badly and lose them all in 1 spell. | ||
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sOm
United States43 Posts
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