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On December 07 2011 03:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote:
I watched the first game. I think it's way way too early to think this is the "future of PvZ" or anything of the sort. I'm still pretty skeptical how such a build would hold up vs 3-base roach -> muta. The issue with Protoss macro has always been the difficulty in securing your 3rd base and beyond and defending multiple fronts with your relatively immobile army. Losira basically did no real harassment or flanking or multi-pronged attacks and was content to just macro up and try to fight head-on with max armies which is basically what a Protoss player wants.
As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. I agree that vortex is unreasonably strong, but Zerg has some unreasonably strong advantages in the match-up as well. Zerg can easily secure a economic advantage, they have roaches which are insanely cost-efficient against every equal-cost Protoss ground composition, they have mutas which are almost impossible to deal with, and they have a production mechanic which allows them to completely flip their composition less than a minute's game time. Because Zerg can get so far ahead in bases and send endless waves of whatever composition they choose, Protoss needs some "over-powered" end-game stuff that is cost-efficient against anything Z throws at them.
I agree with all your points. My point was that Broodlord clumping + Archon splash makes it too strong and is obviously not intended by Blizzard as evidenced by their attempt to remove it with the invulnerability fix. If it were a simple stasis effect ala the Arbiter spell which did not auto-clump units, it would still be an incrediblely powerful spell but not one that is simple "I win" button.
And in my mind all the talk of "attacking from multiple fronts with multiple control groups" is not actually going to be that effective in practice. Broodlords move at a snail's pace, and their strength is really from attacking from a united front. If they are split and used to attack from different fronts the mobility of Blink Stalkers can abuse that. I'm also skeptical you could just sacrifice waves of corruptors to kill the mothership as that will be a hugely inefficient trade although it could possibly work if the zerg had an enormous bank, but there is just too many variables that play against the zerg here, i.e. the protoss player could just make a metric ton of cannons and sit there until his next mothership spawns or something.
edit: I also agree with the other people who say people are overemphasizing Losira's apparent "mistake." No he shouldn't have thrown his Broodlords into the Vortex, but ask yourself this question, "would it have made any difference if he didn't"? The game was already lost the moment the Vortex hit, regardless of what Losira's following decisions were.
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On December 07 2011 04:07 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 03:36 kcdc wrote:On December 07 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote:
I watched the first game. I think it's way way too early to think this is the "future of PvZ" or anything of the sort. I'm still pretty skeptical how such a build would hold up vs 3-base roach -> muta. The issue with Protoss macro has always been the difficulty in securing your 3rd base and beyond and defending multiple fronts with your relatively immobile army. Losira basically did no real harassment or flanking or multi-pronged attacks and was content to just macro up and try to fight head-on with max armies which is basically what a Protoss player wants.
As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. I agree that vortex is unreasonably strong, but Zerg has some unreasonably strong advantages in the match-up as well. Zerg can easily secure a economic advantage, they have roaches which are insanely cost-efficient against every equal-cost Protoss ground composition, they have mutas which are almost impossible to deal with, and they have a production mechanic which allows them to completely flip their composition less than a minute's game time. Because Zerg can get so far ahead in bases and send endless waves of whatever composition they choose, Protoss needs some "over-powered" end-game stuff that is cost-efficient against anything Z throws at them. I agree with all your points. My point was that Broodlord clumping + Archon splash makes it too strong and is obviously not intended by Blizzard as evidenced by their attempt to remove it with the invulnerability fix. If it were a simple stasis effect ala the Arbiter spell which did not auto-clump units, it would still be an incrediblely powerful spell but not one that is simple "I win" button. And in my mind all the talk of "attacking from multiple fronts with multiple control groups" is not actually going to be that effective in practice. Broodlords move at a snail's pace, and their strength is really from attacking from a united front. If they are split and used to attack from different fronts the mobility of Blink Stalkers can abuse that. I'm also skeptical you could just sacrifice waves of corruptors to kill the mothership as that will be a hugely inefficient trade although it could possibly work if the zerg had an enormous bank, but there is just too many variables that play against the zerg here, i.e. the protoss player could just make a metric ton of cannons and sit there until his next mothership spawns or something. edit: I also agree with the other people who say people are overemphasizing Losira's apparent "mistake." No he shouldn't have thrown his Broodlords into the Vortex, but ask yourself this question, "would it have made any difference if he didn't"? The game was already lost the moment the Vortex hit, regardless of what Losira's following decisions were. Splitting broods and blink stalker mobility really have nothing to do with each other, if you had a point elaborate a bit more. The basic premise is that just before or during an engagement make sure that your broodlords are positioned in such a way that a vortex doesn't end the game for you. Having your broodlords separated by itself doesn't really accomplish much.
The cannon point doesn't make a lot of sense to me, zerg could do the same thing, except move the spines across the map or just expand again and begin to stockpile larva/resources.
The obvious answer to your question of "would it have made any difference if he didn't?" is yes. He had two infestors, which did have energy for two fungals. Throwing everything into the vortex meant guaranteed death for the rest of his units. Had he kept them out he would have traded WAY more efficiently by dropping a couple fungals and letting the brood lords do damage. Sending them into the vortex just ensures that they die instantly. Also the trade would have gone way worse for Brown if Losira had kept an overseer out of the vortex or just made more of them and controlled them better.
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On December 06 2011 03:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
this reminds me a lot of incontrol's play such an amazing ZvP although incontrol is probably above this level
LOL incontrol above brown? nice one ^^
this style of PvZ needs to gain some mainstream appeal, too bad mothership won't be available in HotS
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On December 07 2011 04:23 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 04:07 Skyro wrote:On December 07 2011 03:36 kcdc wrote:On December 07 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote:
I watched the first game. I think it's way way too early to think this is the "future of PvZ" or anything of the sort. I'm still pretty skeptical how such a build would hold up vs 3-base roach -> muta. The issue with Protoss macro has always been the difficulty in securing your 3rd base and beyond and defending multiple fronts with your relatively immobile army. Losira basically did no real harassment or flanking or multi-pronged attacks and was content to just macro up and try to fight head-on with max armies which is basically what a Protoss player wants.
As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. I agree that vortex is unreasonably strong, but Zerg has some unreasonably strong advantages in the match-up as well. Zerg can easily secure a economic advantage, they have roaches which are insanely cost-efficient against every equal-cost Protoss ground composition, they have mutas which are almost impossible to deal with, and they have a production mechanic which allows them to completely flip their composition less than a minute's game time. Because Zerg can get so far ahead in bases and send endless waves of whatever composition they choose, Protoss needs some "over-powered" end-game stuff that is cost-efficient against anything Z throws at them. I agree with all your points. My point was that Broodlord clumping + Archon splash makes it too strong and is obviously not intended by Blizzard as evidenced by their attempt to remove it with the invulnerability fix. If it were a simple stasis effect ala the Arbiter spell which did not auto-clump units, it would still be an incrediblely powerful spell but not one that is simple "I win" button. And in my mind all the talk of "attacking from multiple fronts with multiple control groups" is not actually going to be that effective in practice. Broodlords move at a snail's pace, and their strength is really from attacking from a united front. If they are split and used to attack from different fronts the mobility of Blink Stalkers can abuse that. I'm also skeptical you could just sacrifice waves of corruptors to kill the mothership as that will be a hugely inefficient trade although it could possibly work if the zerg had an enormous bank, but there is just too many variables that play against the zerg here, i.e. the protoss player could just make a metric ton of cannons and sit there until his next mothership spawns or something. edit: I also agree with the other people who say people are overemphasizing Losira's apparent "mistake." No he shouldn't have thrown his Broodlords into the Vortex, but ask yourself this question, "would it have made any difference if he didn't"? The game was already lost the moment the Vortex hit, regardless of what Losira's following decisions were. Splitting broods and blink stalker mobility really have nothing to do with each other, if you had a point elaborate a bit more. The basic premise is that just before or during an engagement make sure that your broodlords are positioned in such a way that a vortex doesn't end the game for you. Having your broodlords separated by itself doesn't really accomplish much. The cannon point doesn't make a lot of sense to me, zerg could do the same thing, except move the spines across the map or just expand again and begin to stockpile larva/resources. The obvious answer to your question of "would it have made any difference if he didn't?" is yes. He had two infestors, which did have energy for two fungals. Throwing everything into the vortex meant guaranteed death for the rest of his units. Had he kept them out he would have traded WAY more efficiently by dropping a couple fungals and letting the brood lords do damage. Sending them into the vortex just ensures that they die instantly. Also the trade would have gone way worse for Brown if Losira had kept an overseer out of the vortex or just made more of them and controlled them better.
My point was Broodlords that are too spread out can be picked off by blink stalkers, too clumped up they are owned by vortex. Sure there is probably an optimal middle-ground, but IMO the Protoss army is just going to win if they don't mess up their Vortex.
And yes, there are things Losira could have done better that would have made a difference in perhap the units lost tab or what have you, but you don't honestly believe Losira had any chance of winning, which is the only stat that matters, after that vortex hit, do you? Before the Vortex yes, but after? No chance.
The point about the cannons is just speculation on my part. As a Protoss player I have no idea how a Zerg who just suicides waves of Corruptors to kill a Mothership would play out as I've never actually seen it or have it done to me. I just remain skeptical that highly inefficient trades to kill a Mothership would play out in the Zerg's favor as this was a suggested "counter" to the Mothership in this thread.
And remember, I completely agree the only truly effective way to deal with BL/Infestor is Vortex. The only issue I have is that right now you can abuse a clearly unintended mechanic of Vortex via auto-clumping + Archon splash. The Mothership is clearly SC2's version of the Arbiter, and IMO Vortex was simply Blizzard's way of being cute and trying to add a coolness factor to Stasis. Vortex is basically a Stasis which auto-clumps units. If I were Blizzard I would simply make Vortex not auto-clump units and return them to their original positions when they were Vortex'ed and remove the current invulnerability period for units coming out of the Vortex. If this were implemented Vortex would still be a highly effective counter to mass Broodlords IMO and it wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as it currently is.
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AoE stasis would be much weaker. It would change the balance of the MU. But maybe that's necessary--tough to say for now. And HotS will change everything anyway.
As for whether vortex is OP, I think we need to see Zerg players practice against it a lot before deciding that they don't have a good way to deal with it. I spent a while getting a mothership in most of my PvZ's trying to exploit the archon toilet, and I was surprised at how differently Zerg players handled it. Some had no idea how to play against it and I just rolled them, but others clearly had experience and split their units and sent in corruptors first to absorb the vortexes.
Corruptors, for the most part, don't die if they get vortexed. Z loses a chunk of them, but the invulnerability period spreads them out enough that most get away even against big archon balls. All Z has to do is force P to spend his vortex energy on corruptors before Z engages.
If you want to see how different Zerg players respond to mothership, check out rsvp's replay pack where he uses strategies that are eerily similar to what Brown did in this game. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267259
Few people were doing those strategies at the time, so you can really tell which Zerg players had experience and which didn't. The Zergs that had practice against mothership held their ground just fine while those who didn't know what to do crumbled quickly.
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On December 07 2011 05:26 kcdc wrote:AoE stasis would be much weaker. It would change the balance of the MU. But maybe that's necessary--tough to say for now. And HotS will change everything anyway. As for whether vortex is OP, I think we need to see Zerg players practice against it a lot before deciding that they don't have a good way to deal with it. I spent a while getting a mothership in most of my PvZ's trying to exploit the archon toilet, and I was surprised at how differently Zerg players handled it. Some had no idea how to play against it and I just rolled them, but others clearly had experience and split their units and sent in corruptors first to absorb the vortexes. Corruptors, for the most part, don't die if they get vortexed. Z loses a chunk of them, but the invulnerability period spreads them out enough that most get away even against big archon balls. All Z has to do is force P to spend his vortex energy on corruptors before Z engages. If you want to see how different Zerg players respond to mothership, check out rsvp's replay pack where he uses strategies that are eerily similar to what Brown did in this game. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267259Few people were doing those strategies at the time, so you can really tell which Zerg players had experience and which didn't. The Zergs that had practice against mothership held their ground just fine while those who didn't know what to do crumbled quickly.
I agree with this. We are just barely getting consistent long ZvP's with motherships so it's really way too soon to say whether it's completely broken or not. Losira handled it in the worst way possible that game.
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Losira just didn't seem to play well or adapt to Brown's style. He tried a few ling run bys but never tried to punish the fast 3rd or 4ths. He didn't send in roaches to the new bases, or use mutas, drops, or nydus for harassment or to split up Brown's army. I'm not saying he should have done all those things but at least one so he the Protoss wouldn't be on equal or close to equal bases. And of course he ran his entire broodlord fleet into a vortex.
I'd like to see people playing the same style and having zergs react in a variety of ways so we can tell how this style works or does not work. I will check out those rsvp replays if he plays like Brown against a bunch of high level zergs.
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On December 06 2011 03:54 kcdc wrote:
send ALL of their units into a single vortex, and then everything explodes. That's the micro equivalent of sending 70 banelings next to a tank line and then hitting hold position. Of course it looks one-sided.
Yep. Micro is key people.
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I am curious how Brown deals with a roach spam off of 3 bases, or just more aggressive zergs in general. Are there any more replays/vods available of Brown holding off heavy aggression while he is taking those early 3rds and 4ths?
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i apologise for my previous post in this thread. It was retarded I realise this now- sober. (I'd edit it but I can't find it ;O)
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nice thread, I think I'll definately start getting more than one obs in PvZ..
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It's not that Vortex is really good, its that Leenock threw all his stuff into the vortex.
I mean zerg has two options against vortex:
A) Lose half your army
B) Lose all of your army
In this case, Leenock chose B. Doesn't matter, if you lose one half of your army to vortex then the other half will die instantly.
Can't wait until HOTS. Removing the mothership is good because the design of the mothership is flawed. Too long have people thought that the mothership was a joke. Its really not, the only issue I see it is having it so slow. That doesnt even matter anyway, Protoss has one of the most mobile units in the game (blink stalkers) so they can deal with harass very well should the situation arise. Also, I dont think this should only be used in PvZ. Why not PvT? Vortex the vikings and, as you know, Colossus does pretty well against bio.
In PvP, there is the rare macro game. Most people see it as whoever has the most colossus. While, honestly, that is true, you can remove half of the opponents colossus for 400/400. Pretty big deal.
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On December 07 2011 10:21 Lebzetu wrote:
It's not that Vortex is really good, its that Leenock threw all his stuff into the vortex.
I mean zerg has two options against vortex:
A) Lose half your army
B) Lose all of your army
In this case, Leenock chose B.
Err...Losira, not Leenock.
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On December 07 2011 04:56 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 04:23 CaptainHaz wrote:On December 07 2011 04:07 Skyro wrote:On December 07 2011 03:36 kcdc wrote:On December 07 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote:
I watched the first game. I think it's way way too early to think this is the "future of PvZ" or anything of the sort. I'm still pretty skeptical how such a build would hold up vs 3-base roach -> muta. The issue with Protoss macro has always been the difficulty in securing your 3rd base and beyond and defending multiple fronts with your relatively immobile army. Losira basically did no real harassment or flanking or multi-pronged attacks and was content to just macro up and try to fight head-on with max armies which is basically what a Protoss player wants.
As an aside, as a Protoss player, I think Vortex is a bit ridiculous. The Mothership is essentially a super Arbiter, so why not make Vortex an AoE Stasis? Even as an AoE Stasis I believe it would still serve its purpose as an effective counter to mass Broodlords. Sometimes it seems to me Blizzard just made units slightly different in Starcraft 2 just to be different so that it didn't seem like it was just a remake of BW to the detriment of game balance. I agree that vortex is unreasonably strong, but Zerg has some unreasonably strong advantages in the match-up as well. Zerg can easily secure a economic advantage, they have roaches which are insanely cost-efficient against every equal-cost Protoss ground composition, they have mutas which are almost impossible to deal with, and they have a production mechanic which allows them to completely flip their composition less than a minute's game time. Because Zerg can get so far ahead in bases and send endless waves of whatever composition they choose, Protoss needs some "over-powered" end-game stuff that is cost-efficient against anything Z throws at them. I agree with all your points. My point was that Broodlord clumping + Archon splash makes it too strong and is obviously not intended by Blizzard as evidenced by their attempt to remove it with the invulnerability fix. If it were a simple stasis effect ala the Arbiter spell which did not auto-clump units, it would still be an incrediblely powerful spell but not one that is simple "I win" button. And in my mind all the talk of "attacking from multiple fronts with multiple control groups" is not actually going to be that effective in practice. Broodlords move at a snail's pace, and their strength is really from attacking from a united front. If they are split and used to attack from different fronts the mobility of Blink Stalkers can abuse that. I'm also skeptical you could just sacrifice waves of corruptors to kill the mothership as that will be a hugely inefficient trade although it could possibly work if the zerg had an enormous bank, but there is just too many variables that play against the zerg here, i.e. the protoss player could just make a metric ton of cannons and sit there until his next mothership spawns or something. edit: I also agree with the other people who say people are overemphasizing Losira's apparent "mistake." No he shouldn't have thrown his Broodlords into the Vortex, but ask yourself this question, "would it have made any difference if he didn't"? The game was already lost the moment the Vortex hit, regardless of what Losira's following decisions were. Splitting broods and blink stalker mobility really have nothing to do with each other, if you had a point elaborate a bit more. The basic premise is that just before or during an engagement make sure that your broodlords are positioned in such a way that a vortex doesn't end the game for you. Having your broodlords separated by itself doesn't really accomplish much. The cannon point doesn't make a lot of sense to me, zerg could do the same thing, except move the spines across the map or just expand again and begin to stockpile larva/resources. The obvious answer to your question of "would it have made any difference if he didn't?" is yes. He had two infestors, which did have energy for two fungals. Throwing everything into the vortex meant guaranteed death for the rest of his units. Had he kept them out he would have traded WAY more efficiently by dropping a couple fungals and letting the brood lords do damage. Sending them into the vortex just ensures that they die instantly. Also the trade would have gone way worse for Brown if Losira had kept an overseer out of the vortex or just made more of them and controlled them better. My point was Broodlords that are too spread out can be picked off by blink stalkers, too clumped up they are owned by vortex. Sure there is probably an optimal middle-ground, but IMO the Protoss army is just going to win if they don't mess up their Vortex. And yes, there are things Losira could have done better that would have made a difference in perhap the units lost tab or what have you, but you don't honestly believe Losira had any chance of winning, which is the only stat that matters, after that vortex hit, do you? Before the Vortex yes, but after? No chance. The point about the cannons is just speculation on my part. As a Protoss player I have no idea how a Zerg who just suicides waves of Corruptors to kill a Mothership would play out as I've never actually seen it or have it done to me. I just remain skeptical that highly inefficient trades to kill a Mothership would play out in the Zerg's favor as this was a suggested "counter" to the Mothership in this thread. And remember, I completely agree the only truly effective way to deal with BL/Infestor is Vortex. The only issue I have is that right now you can abuse a clearly unintended mechanic of Vortex via auto-clumping + Archon splash. The Mothership is clearly SC2's version of the Arbiter, and IMO Vortex was simply Blizzard's way of being cute and trying to add a coolness factor to Stasis. Vortex is basically a Stasis which auto-clumps units. If I were Blizzard I would simply make Vortex not auto-clump units and return them to their original positions when they were Vortex'ed and remove the current invulnerability period for units coming out of the Vortex. If this were implemented Vortex would still be a highly effective counter to mass Broodlords IMO and it wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as it currently is. I see what you mean about the broodlord spread now. I believe however, what people are talking about is spreading them so that during the fight they don't get destroyed. Not necessarily just keeping them way apart. I still think that if losira hadn't got ALL of his corruptors vortexed it would have been fine. Perhaps in that game specifically it was over since all his corruptors were going to die and the mothership would be able to shield the ground units since both of the overseers went down as well. I can't however say that he would not have been in a better position had he saved his broodlords and just traded armies instead of losing his so inefficiently.
I have to disagree with the point regarding zergs trading inefficiently. If you look at a resources lost tab in a pvz, a lot of the time you see it way in favor of the protoss yet zergs are still winning. I feel like zerg need to better use their ability to stockpile production and the ability to swap tech more effectively as a whole. In brown vs losira, this didn't come into play much, but had losira just forced a vortex early on from the mothership by harassing with his corruptors, the fight with his broods would have been much better for him.
I think vortex is possibly game ending, but i also feel that maxed pure corruptor broodlord is almost impossible to deal with as protoss. This is largely due to protoss ground units being inefficient after a certain point, yet toss can't swap to air as fast as zerg can.
At the moment, I feel that vortex is not that much different from forcefields in the mid/late game. If you fuck it up, you're likely to lose, if not, you'll win pretty convincingly.
I can't comment on the broodwar/stasis things as I don't have much broodwar experience.
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On December 07 2011 10:23 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 10:21 Lebzetu wrote:
It's not that Vortex is really good, its that Leenock threw all his stuff into the vortex.
I mean zerg has two options against vortex:
A) Lose half your army
B) Lose all of your army
In this case, Leenock chose B. Err...Losira, not Leenock.
whoops, my bad.
They both begin with L? Thats my excuse ^.^
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I have to say, I just can't agree with this analysis of the game.
When it comes down to it, the taking of extra expansions was dangerous, and he let Losira get to a HUGE macro level with ENORMOUS upgrades and a very large bank. I don't think that the proof is in the pudding in this case.
While Brown won, I have to agree with Moletrap and Kaldor in saying that Brown was only able to win because he had that amazing Archon toilet which DESTROYED every broodlord and corruptor Losira had. If Losira had been more responsible (try microing) the act of letting Losira build up infinitely would not have been a wise one. While I appreciate the analysis of the game, and I do think that there's much to learn from Brown, I just still can't fully agree with you that no two-base timing is wise. I don't think it needs to be any kind of all in timing, but I do think it's unwise to let a Zerg player build up like Losira did. Don't get me wrong, I think that this style is valuable, but if Losira had not decided to let Brown macro up, it would have been difficult for him, I think. I CERTAINLY don't think that this style can be used as the new end-all-be-all of ZvP. It has simply too many dangers, I believe, in agreement with Tasteless, Artosis, Moletrap, and Kaldor.
Don't get me wrong though, nice guide and I learned a lot.
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United States297 Posts
I liked this analysis but I think you should also take in to account that the way brown played, there were a lot of moments given his army size with his quick expansions that he seemed very very vulnerable. This build seems like it takes perfect defense and could be a bit fragile to more in your face zerg aggression.
Its really tough to say too much about this passive macro style until we see more than just this game so I'm looking forward to more brown vs zerg games. It could also be that brown choose to never be aggressive as the game progressed rather than pre-emptively plan to play passive vs zerg. He may have some tells/reads/scouts that would influence his tech and expo choices that we aren't completely aware of yet.
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United States8477 Posts
On December 07 2011 12:28 Nuclease wrote:
I have to say, I just can't agree with this analysis of the game.
When it comes down to it, the taking of extra expansions was dangerous, and he let Losira get to a HUGE macro level with ENORMOUS upgrades and a very large bank. I don't think that the proof is in the pudding in this case.
While Brown won, I have to agree with Moletrap and Kaldor in saying that Brown was only able to win because he had that amazing Archon toilet which DESTROYED every broodlord and corruptor Losira had. If Losira had been more responsible (try microing) the act of letting Losira build up infinitely would not have been a wise one. While I appreciate the analysis of the game, and I do think that there's much to learn from Brown, I just still can't fully agree with you that no two-base timing is wise. I don't think it needs to be any kind of all in timing, but I do think it's unwise to let a Zerg player build up like Losira did. Don't get me wrong, I think that this style is valuable, but if Losira had not decided to let Brown macro up, it would have been difficult for him, I think. I CERTAINLY don't think that this style can be used as the new end-all-be-all of ZvP. It has simply too many dangers, I believe, in agreement with Tasteless, Artosis, Moletrap, and Kaldor.
Don't get me wrong though, nice guide and I learned a lot.
Taking which expo was dangerous? They all seemed pretty safe to me given what Brown had scouted.
Brown didn't win because he got lucky and landed a "lucky" archon toliet. He was aiming for archon toilet and once protoss has the tools to get archon toliet + storm, protoss has the advantage, not zerg. Yes, the archon toilet was more effective than it should have been but it doesn't change the fact that Brown had the advantage the moment before the archon toliet.
I never claimed that this style is the end-all-be-all of ZvP. I'm just saying that Brown demonstrated good points and that his style is one viable way to play the matchup.
Also, Artosis would certainly not agree with you, as he's been lobbying for macro protoss for a long time.
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Where dat snitch at?37121 Posts
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