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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 09:43 Mauzel wrote:
So listal brought it up, but 1 voidray into quick third is not new. In fact, Huk used a similar variant of this build against Leenock in group play of the GSL this season. It was on the winter belshir beach. Leenock recognized the build, turtled with the minimum defense, and then went pure muta with air and ling upgrades. He constantly harassed Huk as he increased his muta ball. Huk did not take much damage, but whenever Leenock had the chance, he would engage with mutaling against Huk's stalker ball. Leenock wouldn't lose many mutas, so he was effectively trading lings for stalkers.
How would brown's style deal with a mass muta style? I think that on daybreak, managing the mutaling trades would be better because the distance between your 3rd and natural is smaller and you would be able to fight in chokes most of the time. By the same token, however, it would be easier to get to 6 bases on Daybreak while containing with this muta ball.
(I personally think +1 shields are part of the answer (at least with this aggressive protoss macro style) Cannons never die vs lings, and the +1 shields helps stalkers vs the bounce of the muta. Also, you will probably eventually want archons anyway, which obviously benefit the most from +1shields. )
By the way, Daybreak is especially suited to this style of play. Turtle protoss on Daybreak is so good because of the way the expansions work. As you take more bases and cannon them up, you are limiting zerg's counter attacking ability, because almost every path passes by an expansion (which you will eventually have cannoned up).
Yes, I mention that Huk has done a similar build before in my article. I would imagine you play versus ling/muta like with any other opening. Cannons, blink stalker, templar.
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On December 06 2011 09:54 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 09:43 Mauzel wrote:
So listal brought it up, but 1 voidray into quick third is not new. In fact, Huk used a similar variant of this build against Leenock in group play of the GSL this season. It was on the winter belshir beach. Leenock recognized the build, turtled with the minimum defense, and then went pure muta with air and ling upgrades. He constantly harassed Huk as he increased his muta ball. Huk did not take much damage, but whenever Leenock had the chance, he would engage with mutaling against Huk's stalker ball. Leenock wouldn't lose many mutas, so he was effectively trading lings for stalkers.
How would brown's style deal with a mass muta style? I think that on daybreak, managing the mutaling trades would be better because the distance between your 3rd and natural is smaller and you would be able to fight in chokes most of the time. By the same token, however, it would be easier to get to 6 bases on Daybreak while containing with this muta ball.
(I personally think +1 shields are part of the answer (at least with this aggressive protoss macro style) Cannons never die vs lings, and the +1 shields helps stalkers vs the bounce of the muta. Also, you will probably eventually want archons anyway, which obviously benefit the most from +1shields. )
By the way, Daybreak is especially suited to this style of play. Turtle protoss on Daybreak is so good because of the way the expansions work. As you take more bases and cannon them up, you are limiting zerg's counter attacking ability, because almost every path passes by an expansion (which you will eventually have cannoned up). Yes, I mention that Huk has done a similar build before in my article. I would imagine you play versus ling/muta like with any other opening. Cannons, blink stalker, templar.
Brown's style puts him in a position where he can respond to what his opponent is doing, which is a point you indirectly made with the 2 robos only being available on an as-needed or as-applicable basis. upon scouting spire tech while harassing with the void ray, i think the obvious response to a spire would be faster blink stalker tech.
furthermore, Brown uses high templar. high templar and archons with the initial gateway blob tear up muta/ling styles. the longer a game goes in zvp when the zerg player is using muta/ling, the more the game swings into the protoss player's favor.
i think that two obvious and connected differences from the game Monk outlined here against muta/ling are: two robos don't make sense, and you can forget about attempts to do warp prism harassment. cannons, sim city, high templar defense, and a strong gateway ball are what it takes to shut down muta/ling. blink stalkers get you there, and with Brown's style, i think that blink stalker defense isn't too rough to pull off to get you to the end game.
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On December 06 2011 06:52 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 06 2011 06:12 Tobias wrote:
Just watched the vod, and I think the major lesson I got out of it was not to throw my entire army into a vortex o_O lol i just finished can't believe losira did that haha xD epic archon toilet, although there was 1 sad archon who didn't get to go in  (brown u meanie lol) uhm.... what else is he going to do with slow ass broodlord who'll die if they try to walk with a cane back to the spines? Also they can't kill anything since the overseer's in the vortex too. (nor can he see that the archons walked into the vortex -- Hi overseers went into vortex with the corruptors)
Oh ok, didn't realize he had no detection xD
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Watching the has really made me think anew of vortex. That 1 spell, that game changing. Its definitely strong an maybe needs a little re work but I don't think it's that imbalanced, I mean, considering you can only have 1, and the tech/money to get it. That game really was worth the time though
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On December 06 2011 10:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:52 zhurai wrote:On December 06 2011 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 06 2011 06:12 Tobias wrote:
Just watched the vod, and I think the major lesson I got out of it was not to throw my entire army into a vortex o_O lol i just finished can't believe losira did that haha xD epic archon toilet, although there was 1 sad archon who didn't get to go in (brown u meanie lol) uhm.... what else is he going to do with slow ass broodlord who'll die if they try to walk with a cane back to the spines? Also they can't kill anything since the overseer's in the vortex too. (nor can he see that the archons walked into the vortex -- Hi overseers went into vortex with the corruptors) Oh ok, didn't realize he had no detection xD
yeah, sorry for sounding a bit pissed, it's just I was up late watching that game (4-5 am ftw o_t) and then people on the #GSL irc channel were saying stupid shit about those stuff, and have been continuously seeing that...that it kinda annoyed me o_o oh well.
t.t
Yeah he had 2 overseers, but on the same hotkey as the corruptors. I guess they should've been on the same hotkey as the broods? xD t.t
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Canada13389 Posts
I tried this myself today after watching the games and seeing your article. It went quite well. It wasn't well executed by my diamond self but the early third put me in control the whole time and really let me keep a macro evenness and at times lead.
The mothership was super useful and in the end the carriers got a good number of kills as well. The only thing I find bothersome is that vortexes eat your interceptors so they end up being useless making the carriers dead weight for the time that the vortex is in play. Though this isn't a flaw of the strategy instead just a frustrating point to deal with with regards to mothership play.
Also, the void ray while taking a third isn't technically new it is novel to some of us on these forums so its nice you put that in  . Neither queens nor hydras can attack you across map so if you aren't in close positions that 3rd base ends up being really really safe especially with zealot sentry there to try and help defend it. Also 2 robo is awesome I loved always having collossus production and still always having a warp prism somewhere on the map.
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I just want to bring up a point of comparison for people who QQ so goddamn hard about the mothership, and vortex.
Is stasis omfgbbq imba in BW? And why not, cause the answer is no (we assume)? In that game you're even allowed to have several "vortexes" on hand. Let's go over the matchups separately. And first, to clarify, stasis is "not as powerful" because it's a one-shot capture, and it doesn't clump air units for you to create the potential for juicy archon splash.
Stasis is only really used in PvT, and in that matchup the terran gets sci vessels to EMP off the arbiter energy. So there's a direct way to combat the threat. Nevertheless, arbiters are a common tech choice, even fast arbiters, despite facing a "direct counter". The functionality of shutting off a portion of the terran army is good enough, because much of the time you can cleanup or push away the remaining terran force, and then pounce with a squad of zealots and goons when the tanks and goliaths in the stasis wake up. I would submit that the piling up function of vortex is nice but it's not really the backbreaker; just creating a situation where you can move your units in and surround is good enough. The archon toilet is really good but a stasis with archons underneath broodlords would be really damn good too.
Arbiters are basically never used in PvZ in BW though. Why? They get shot down hard by scourge and mutas. Scourge. Yeah, how does that word feel in your mouth. Based on the strength of stasis in general, if it was possible I'm sure it would be used, at least in the late game.
kcdc has mentioned in multiple posts in this thread about the stupidity of how zergs engage the vortex-ready protoss army. It's like they actively refuse to change their tactical approach in the face of overwhelming failure. The method he describes with corrupter assaults is probably the best first step towards the "correct" way to fight a mothership atop a good protoss ball. The idea that it's unfair that you can't engage head on... of course... that's the point. Abusing the strength of larvae banking provides more than a few options for dismantling the protoss pyramid. To say nothing of zerg's excellent mobility options.
Finally, I hate to theorycraft about an expansion whose new units aren't final, but I assume the viper would make it silly to rely on a mothership, so I don't see why the unit has to be removed because it's too powerful. + Show Spoiler +Let alone replaced with the epitome of herp derp a-move.
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Although it's conjecture, I think it's a very poor choice to rely on taking a fast 3rd behind 'fake stargate' (1 voidray...)
I understand it is a great strategy to have, and use from time to time (mindgames), but I would like to see a fast 3rd holding against some heavy 3base zerg timings.
Or proof of '1 voidray, fast 3rd' holding some heavy 3base zerg timings.
Thoughts?
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On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical. User was warned for this post
Dude you need to quit while you're way way behind.
First off, I played football in College and I can tell you, yes 99% of the people who watch a ton of football and think they "understand" what's going on have absolutely no freaking clue what the hell they are talking about and you exhibit the very same combination of ignorance and arrogance that they do.
Everything that I've ever dedicated myself to mastering in life, the closer i've gotten to the very pinnacle of it, the more I've learned how little i knew before - this holds true in every profession, sport, and in this case, competitive video game.
Most complicated activities and competitions takes place in layers, spectators will only see the very finished layer - the final build order, reactions after a mind game - the incomplete pass or throw. What they don't see is the processes that it took to get there, and the various branches that the game/competition could've taken place but didn't. The reason you have to be a high level player of a sport/game to fully understand the game is because you don't know about the branches that did not happen, you only see what did; thus, you basically rely on the commentators and analysts to tell you - analysts that may very well be wrong because their job isn't easy either, and they could easily miss things due to factors behind the scenes that no one else knows (if you've worked in production/TV business you would know what its like for talents when producers are screaming in their ear).
Show some respect man. They have a term for people like you - its called "armchair general" for a reason.
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On December 06 2011 12:38 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical. User was warned for this post Dude you need to quit while you're way way behind. First off, I played football in College and I can tell you, yes 99% of the people who watch a ton of football and think they "understand" what's going on have absolutely no freaking clue what the hell they are talking about and you exhibit the very same combination of ignorance and arrogance that they do. Everything that I've ever dedicated myself to mastering in life, the closer i've gotten to the very pinnacle of it, the more I've learned how little i knew before - this holds true in every profession, sport, and in this case, competitive video game. Most complicated activities and competitions takes place in layers, spectators will only see the very finished layer - the final build order, reactions after a mind game - the incomplete pass or throw. What they don't see is the processes that it took to get there, and the various branches that the game/competition could've taken place but didn't. The reason you have to be a high level player of a sport/game to fully understand the game is because you don't know about the branches that did not happen, you only see what did; thus, you basically rely on the commentators and analysts to tell you - analysts that may very well be wrong because their job isn't easy either, and they could easily miss things due to factors behind the scenes that no one else knows. Show some respect man. They have a term for people like you - its called "armchair general" for a reason.
mlspmatt - I'm gonna back up this guy and Monk and say that you need to learn to be more level-headed and quite the childish remarks. Monk has demonstrated a billion times he has well-thought out explanations behind what he says - just look at some of his guides at cover almost every possiblity u can think of. He specifically addresses your comments with objective proof...you instead come back with your own pure opinions that have no substance behind it.
You probably still disagree on reading this because ur so caught up in anger and just want to be stubborn in giving up ground and admitting your wrong.
Why do I waste my time typing this post? Its to encourage those ppl that contribute to the TL community and earned respect. Your comments discourage him, and I don't want to see that happen.
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On December 06 2011 12:38 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. There's no other sport on the planet, football, baseball, hockey, curling, cricket, that a fan who watches a ton of play doesn't "UNDERSTAND" whats happening. But in starcraft, the folks who work for a living and can't play starcraft all day are too feeble minded to understand the technicalities. Typical. User was warned for this post Dude you need to quit while you're way way behind. First off, I played football in College and I can tell you, yes 99% of the people who watch a ton of football and think they "understand" what's going on have absolutely no freaking clue what the hell they are talking about and you exhibit the very same combination of ignorance and arrogance that they do. Everything that I've ever dedicated myself to mastering in life, the closer i've gotten to the very pinnacle of it, the more I've learned how little i knew before - this holds true in every profession, sport, and in this case, competitive video game. Most complicated activities and competitions takes place in layers, spectators will only see the very finished layer - the final build order, reactions after a mind game - the incomplete pass or throw. What they don't see is the processes that it took to get there, and the various branches that the game/competition could've taken place but didn't. The reason you have to be a high level player of a sport/game to fully understand the game is because you don't know about the branches that did not happen, you only see what did; thus, you basically rely on the commentators and analysts to tell you - analysts that may very well be wrong because their job isn't easy either, and they could easily miss things due to factors behind the scenes that no one else knows (if you've worked in production/TV business you would know what its like for talents when producers are screaming in their ear). Show some respect man. They have a term for people like you - its called "armchair general" for a reason.
So true! Really, the idea of understanding SC2 or any other activity with armchair coaches just by watching without actually playing it at the highest level is as absurd as understanding math just by looking at the answer to a problem without going through the process of figuring it out.
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Mothership is being removed in HotS, I don't see a point in practicing vortex/archon toilet micro.
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On December 06 2011 14:07 W2 wrote:
Mothership is being removed in HotS, I don't see a point in practicing vortex/archon toilet micro.
I wanted to post something like this. It's what's been stopping me from making mamaships lategame and has been costing me quite a few late game pvz's I have a massive advantage in (stupid, I know).
So are carriers... Two best way to deal with BLs afaik
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I really like point #2. Hadn't really thought about how getting stargate is probably the best route to taking your third. I'm still a little skeptical, but I'll definitely have to try some more stargate play.
On December 06 2011 02:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:19 listal wrote:
motherships and the archon toilet are absolutely the counter to brood lords, no doubt about it. adding in carriers seems questionable though. as a game-ending unit, sure, they're good. but i don't think they beat mothership/colossus/archon/stalker against any zerg unit composition. carriers are beautiful at maintaining your lead, since they're impossible to take down once you lose your supply lead against a protoss player. point being, i think that by advertising carriers as the ultimate protoss death ball, you're short-changing the original composition that enabled you to produce carriers.
You're underselling the AA range carriers give you. Without carriers, you're fighting siege-range broodlords with archons and void rays. Void rays have to move into fungal range in order to attack the broodlords, so they get owned. And archons rely on big vortexes to get in range. If for any reason you're unable to vortex a big chunk of Z's broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, you're screwed if you don't have carriers. That said, carriers wind up being the last piece of the puzzle you add because otherwise, you die. But they are important.
Really good point. Especially if you aren't able to get a good vortex off, or lost the mothership, you need the carriers against a good air deathball of zerg.
On December 06 2011 14:32 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 14:07 W2 wrote:
Mothership is being removed in HotS, I don't see a point in practicing vortex/archon toilet micro. I wanted to post something like this. It's what's been stopping me from making mamaships lategame and has been costing me quite a few late game pvz's I have a massive advantage in (stupid, I know). So are carriers... Two best way to deal with BLs afaik
Hopefully the Tempest will fill that role, maybe better than "I really hope I get a perfect Vortex!"
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On December 06 2011 08:45 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game. If you think there's nothing wrong with Vortex after watching that game, then i don't know what to say. Get outplayed the entire game, be on the verge of losing, but get saved by 1 spell, that crushes the opponents ENTIRE army in three seconds. OK. Your entitled to your opinion.
This notion of Losira being ahead is one that I wish someone would quantify for me. In long PvZs, I see a pattern where Zerg often are able to take more bases quickly and throw away units due to the fast expos and the larva mechanic (faster saturation). In other words, Zerg routinely look like they are ahead in these games. Toss on the other hand has to resiliently fight off swarms and harass as they more slowly mass. Zerg usually get an early supply advantage, max more quickly, and have an easier time staying maxed.
I can see how some people might see the 30 minute point in a PvZ and just assume the Zerg is winning based on these rhythms. Yet in this game (and recently in the popular HuK vs Aria game) we see that there comes a point where the tide turns. If that has to be a Mothership/Archon Toilet, I'll agree, that's a bit of an odd mechanic. However, the presence of that mechanic should make a Zerg think twice before massing blords. Casters have this habit of jizzing over the number of blords being produced. Perhaps, in the face of an archon toilet, a zerg who morphs 15 blords has over-extended himself?
tl;dr The archon toilet would look less OP if Losira wasn't so heavily infested in achingly slow moving blords and imo, long PvZs routinely look like games where the Z has the advantage.
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i was only able to watch teh 1st game.. being as im not stupid enough to actually pay for vods... I don't see your point whatsoever. This game was won by a godly perfect vortex- had nothing to do with air play whatsoever... time wasted.
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rofl at protoss whiners. archon toilet was nerfed by still work to some extent vs very slow units. i.e broodlords
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i liked Brown's use of carriers in that game, players should use them more often.
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On December 06 2011 14:48 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:45 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:39 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:36 mlspmatt wrote:On December 06 2011 08:27 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 08:20 mlspmatt wrote:
Losira had the game won, was ahead and in command the entire game then Brown landed a Mother Ship Vortex and it was over. As a Terran, I was blown away with how losira controlled the entire game, made no mistakes, he played flawless.
The Vortex was the game, Losira lost his entire army. There's a reason the Mothership is disappearing in HOTS, there's no way anyone could watch that game and believe that particular spell belongs in the game. The game was on the verge of being over when that happened. And I don't play Zerg or Protoss so I'm coming from an objective perspective.
As far as Protoss not needing to two base all-In every game, everybody has known that Toss strength is late game since the beginning of time. As a Terran i fully expect to lose once the game gets past twenty minutes in TvP, granted I'm not a pro and the game is different at that level, but all the Protoss timing attacks came from Korea where they like to All-In, especially Protoss.
European Protoss play for the late game and do very well even though there are excellent Zergs in Europe. The "Protoss MUST attack early" is nonsense, a meme, its just meta game not being where it should be. Especially PvT, Protoss late game is far superior since the ghost nurf. PvZ is much closer. I completely disagree that Losira had the game won, was ahead, and in command the entire game. Losira did indeed trade well in the first major battle, but he didn't followup and capitalize on his advantage. Coming from someone who doesn't play a lot of high level PvZ such as yourself or moletrap/Khaldor casting, you might assume that Losira was in control the whole game. However, anyone that has some decent experience with late game PvZ will tell you that once the Protoss can get a mothership with sufficient archons/templar, it's pretty much over for Zerg. Brown played to this, aimed for it, and got it and that is why he won. Btw a bit off topic but I found moletrap and Khaldor's casting extremely ill-informed in this game and they made wrong calls a lot. Nothing against them and no offense intended at all, but I find it annoying when casters pretend to know what they're talking about but are actually giving the viewers wrong analysis. Personally, a cast is much more enjoyable when either the casters just simply cast without trying to give hard analysis or when they're very familiar with the game. In fact, I think casters should work to learn the game better to provide better analysis for the viewers, especially lower level viewers. The game was over. Losira played perfect. He was on the verge of crushing what was left of Brown's army, then Losira lost his entire army in 3 seconds. It's comical when people pull the "You don't understand high level play card." That's such juvenile bullshit. As I said and as Brown has said, Brown's entire game plan versus broodlords was going for archon toliet and he did it. Within the confines of the game, Brown was winning and in control, not Losira. You can argue that archon toliet is imbalanced, but you can't say that Losira was winning when Brown had all the tools he needed to win the game. If you think there's nothing wrong with Vortex after watching that game, then i don't know what to say. Get outplayed the entire game, be on the verge of losing, but get saved by 1 spell, that crushes the opponents ENTIRE army in three seconds. OK. Your entitled to your opinion. This notion of Losira being ahead is one that I wish someone would quantify for me. In long PvZs, I see a pattern where Zerg often are able to take more bases quickly and throw away units due to the fast expos and the larva mechanic (faster saturation). In other words, Zerg routinely look like they are ahead in these games. Toss on the other hand has to resiliently fight off swarms and harass as they more slowly mass. Zerg usually get an early supply advantage, max more quickly, and have an easier time staying maxed. I can see how some people might see the 30 minute point in a PvZ and just assume the Zerg is winning based on these rhythms. Yet in this game (and recently in the popular HuK vs Aria game) we see that there comes a point where the tide turns. If that has to be a Mothership/Archon Toilet, I'll agree, that's a bit of an odd mechanic. However, the presence of that mechanic should make a Zerg think twice before massing blords. Casters have this habit of jizzing over the number of blords being produced. Perhaps, in the face of an archon toilet, a zerg who morphs 15 blords has over-extended himself? tl;dr The archon toilet would look less OP if Losira wasn't so heavily infested in achingly slow moving blords and imo, long PvZs routinely look like games where the Z has the advantage.
Yes, morphing 15 BL's is overextending in that context. But what's a zerg to do otherwise? Maybe ultras (especially in Hots, where they will actually be viable) but really the toss deathball at that point can defeat pretty much any zerg army and level bases before the zerg can remax. Broods are generally viewed as the only viable late-game comp for zerg, and now they just don't work. It's hard to face.
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This thread makes me indescribably depressed about HotS.
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EPT
