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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 03:08 eYeball wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I watched missed it today but watched it now in HQ, pretty awesome game I must say.
However what would you do if your opponent goes muta/ling? Add a second stargate and pump phoenixes while getting blink/storm? It must be pretty hard to take bases if you face a good muta/ling user?
Second what if he had not get that vortex down, the game could had been over! Feels very dependant you get use of the mothership.
It's not really in the scope of the article to discuss the actual build. Imo the build isn't as important as the concepts that Brown uses. But if you ask me, I would add cannons and tech to blink/storm vs 3 base muta play. 2 base muta play is a completely different story. Also, vortex is quite easy to aim.
On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable?
Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest.
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On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:
Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable?
This is what i have been thinking for the past 3 months, watching zerg player of all caliber fall to it. Stephano often tries at least to NP it with hidden infestors to deplete its energy (either he doesn't succeed or P retreats, waits for energy and still wins), other zergs try to snipe it (but you need mass corruptor for that, and mass corruptor gets archon toileted as well).
And i have never seen a professional game where protoss does not win after using archon toilet, no matter how ridiculous the zergs lead was before the encounter.
I think people call it a "good game" since they are excited about the mighty mothership, as they are about nukes. But they do not see that a mothership with 4+ archons is as strong as double nuke combined with fungal for the full nuke duration. Makes me honestly sad for the zerg progamers who have to make a living and then get demolished by armies that cost a fraction of the zerg's army because one thing blizzard put into the game to make bronze level free for all more fun got out of hand.
Seriously, i have no respect whatsoever for people who use mother ships, even without vortex mass cloak is too strong when you need overseer to detect.
On December 06 2011 03:37 NrGmonk wrote:
Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest.
I don't know, but Carriers have a huge AA range. Sure the problem is getting to carriers without dying, but if you care to look out for it you will notice how many zergs get smashed when trying to get Brood Lords out. So i would even dare to say, if zerg can get Brood Lords out, protoss can afford to get Carriers (ressource- and time-wise). You do not need a unit that instakills 20 Brood Lords FOR FREE when used with 4 Archons.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 06 2011 03:38 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:
Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable? This is what i have been thinking for the past 3 months, watching zerg player of all caliber fall to it. Stephano often tries at least to NP it with hidden infestors to deplete its energy (either he doesn't succeed or P retreats, waits for energy and still wins), other zergs try to snipe it (but you need mass corruptor for that, and mass corruptor gets archon toileted as well). And i have never seen a professional game where protoss does not win after using archon toilet, no matter how ridiculous the zergs lead was before the encounter. I think people call it a "good game" since they are excited about the mighty mothership, as they are about nukes. But they do not see that a mothership with 4+ archons is as strong as double nuke combined with fungal for the full nuke duration. Makes me honestly sad for the zerg progamers who have to make a living and then get demolished by armies that cost a fraction of the zerg's army because one thing blizzard put into the game to make bronze level free for all more fun got out of hand. Seriously, i have no respect whatsoever for people who use mother ships, even without vortex mass cloak is too strong when you need overseer to detect. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:37 NrGmonk wrote:
Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest.
I don't know, but Carriers have a huge AA range. Sure the problem is getting to carriers without dying, but if you care to look out for it you will notice how many zergs get smashed when trying to get Brood Lords out. So i would even dare to say, if zerg can get Brood Lords out, protoss can afford to get Carriers (ressource- and time-wise). You do not need a unit that instakills 20 Brood Lords FOR FREE when used with 4 Archons.
You win with the tools that are given to you. Don't hate the players, hate the game.
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United States8476 Posts
Seriously, i have no respect whatsoever for people who use mother ships, even without vortex mass cloak is too strong when you need overseer to detect.
This claim is just silly. Overseers are super cheap.
Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:37 NrGmonk wrote:
Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest.
I don't know, but Carriers have a huge AA range. Sure the problem is getting to carriers without dying, but if you care to look out for it you will notice how many zergs get smashed when trying to get Brood Lords out. So i would even dare to say, if zerg can get Brood Lords out, protoss can afford to get Carriers (ressource- and time-wise). You do not need a unit that instakills 20 Brood Lords FOR FREE when used with 4 Archons.
In practice, it's just much much too hard for protoss to get carriers to counter broodlords especially since you need both templar and mass carriers to counter corruptor broodlord. Infestor/corruptor/broodlord is one easy tech path and zerg only need 1 tech build per unit. On the other hand, you'd need something silly like 3 stargate plus templar tech to get carriers and you'd need a minimum of 6 before you get any good results.
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What I loved about Browns game was as he took his 4th(I think) he split his army in 2 groups, each with a colossus, and sent 1 group to poke while the other defended. That was really smart because Losira just had lings. That being said I think he had way to many colossi at the end - 5 or 6. 3 would have been more than enough.
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Archon toilet isn't as strong as people are making it out to be--Zergs just don't have much practice against it. The way you beat it is waves of corruptors. Build 20 corruptors, put them in two or 3 control groups, and A-move them on the mothership from different directions. Storm dodge and micro around archons for bonus points. The mothership has to spend its vortex energy or it dies. Retreat with whatever corruptors survive after the vortexes. Remax and attack. Sure, Z trades a few thousand resources of corruptors for mothership energy, but by that point in the game, Z has infinity bases and resources don't matter.
Vortex is really good, but it's perceived to be a lot better than it actually is because Z players do dumb stuff like send ALL of their units into a single vortex, and then everything explodes. That's the micro equivalent of sending 70 banelings next to a tank line and then hitting hold position. Of course it looks one-sided.
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I like herO with more HTs rather than colossi. HTs could snipe infestors and you don't have to worry about corruptors killing both mothership and colossi.
Also Brown did really good job on macroing in that game, I think he's pretty passive in-term of harassing and maneuvering. He warped in too late and didn't snipe any structures.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 03:56 tuho12345 wrote:
I like herO with more HTs rather than colossi. HTs could snipe infestors and you don't have to worry about corruptors killing both mothership and colossi.
That's cool, but doesn't really pertain to this discussion.
Also Brown did really good job on macroing in that game, I think he's pretty passive in-term of harassing and maneuvering. He warped in too late and didn't snipe any structures.
The nature of his build didn't allow him to harrass much early game, but he attempted a lot with warp prisms as soon as he could afford it. Also, I personally thought Brown's army movements were really really good, partly due to his observer count and spread.
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On December 06 2011 03:37 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:08 eYeball wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I watched missed it today but watched it now in HQ, pretty awesome game I must say.
However what would you do if your opponent goes muta/ling? Add a second stargate and pump phoenixes while getting blink/storm? It must be pretty hard to take bases if you face a good muta/ling user?
Second what if he had not get that vortex down, the game could had been over! Feels very dependant you get use of the mothership. It's not really in the scope of the article to discuss the actual build. Imo the build isn't as important as the concepts that Brown uses. But if you ask me, I would add cannons and tech to blink/storm vs 3 base muta play. 2 base muta play is a completely different story. Also, vortex is quite easy to aim. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable? Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest.
Isn't the answer to mass broodlords simply voidrays?
if zerg has 10 broodlords that's the same supply 13 voidrays at signifcantly more gas cost for the zerg. If you compare gas it's the same as 16 voidrays. Now I don't remmber who he was playing but there was a dimaga game where the protoss had mass void-ray and rolled through all dimagas units like he wasn't there. I understand chain-fungals are what worries protoss, but it would seem that some basic splitting would negate that pretty hard, not to mention combining that with the motherships cloack and recall abilities.
Is voidray not an answer due to production time? or is there some other elemenet I'm not considering here.
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Canada13389 Posts
On December 06 2011 04:10 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:37 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 03:08 eYeball wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I watched missed it today but watched it now in HQ, pretty awesome game I must say.
However what would you do if your opponent goes muta/ling? Add a second stargate and pump phoenixes while getting blink/storm? It must be pretty hard to take bases if you face a good muta/ling user?
Second what if he had not get that vortex down, the game could had been over! Feels very dependant you get use of the mothership. It's not really in the scope of the article to discuss the actual build. Imo the build isn't as important as the concepts that Brown uses. But if you ask me, I would add cannons and tech to blink/storm vs 3 base muta play. 2 base muta play is a completely different story. Also, vortex is quite easy to aim. On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable? Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest. Isn't the answer to mass broodlords simply voidrays? if zerg has 10 broodlords that's the same supply 13 voidrays at signifcantly more gas cost for the zerg. If you compare gas it's the same as 16 voidrays. Now I don't remmber who he was playing but there was a dimaga game where the protoss had mass void-ray and rolled through all dimagas units like he wasn't there. I understand chain-fungals are what worries protoss, but it would seem that some basic splitting would negate that pretty hard, not to mention combining that with the motherships cloack and recall abilities. Is voidray not an answer due to production time? or is there some other elemenet I'm not considering here.
You are thinking of Socke vs Dimaga and I think it might have been at the most recent homestory cup on crevasse iirc, it was a terrible game. It shouldn't be the basis for anything.
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This seems really interesting. I love playing macro games PvZ so this is a must read for me.
I LOVE the idea of double robo to get up an observer network and allow mass warp prism harass but mutalisks scare the crap out of me. What would you suggest with this style if you smell mutalisks - simply avoid double robo altogether and go for the usual templar tech?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 04:11 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 04:10 IcemanAsi wrote:On December 06 2011 03:37 NrGmonk wrote:On December 06 2011 03:08 eYeball wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I watched missed it today but watched it now in HQ, pretty awesome game I must say.
However what would you do if your opponent goes muta/ling? Add a second stargate and pump phoenixes while getting blink/storm? It must be pretty hard to take bases if you face a good muta/ling user?
Second what if he had not get that vortex down, the game could had been over! Feels very dependant you get use of the mothership. It's not really in the scope of the article to discuss the actual build. Imo the build isn't as important as the concepts that Brown uses. But if you ask me, I would add cannons and tech to blink/storm vs 3 base muta play. 2 base muta play is a completely different story. Also, vortex is quite easy to aim. On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable? Hmmm, not deplorable, but I do agree archon toliet is a bit silly. The problem is without it, protoss really have no hope of ever beating mass broodlords. I think blizzard hopes to fix this by removing the mothership and adding the tempest. Isn't the answer to mass broodlords simply voidrays? if zerg has 10 broodlords that's the same supply 13 voidrays at signifcantly more gas cost for the zerg. If you compare gas it's the same as 16 voidrays. Now I don't remmber who he was playing but there was a dimaga game where the protoss had mass void-ray and rolled through all dimagas units like he wasn't there. I understand chain-fungals are what worries protoss, but it would seem that some basic splitting would negate that pretty hard, not to mention combining that with the motherships cloack and recall abilities. Is voidray not an answer due to production time? or is there some other elemenet I'm not considering here. You are thinking of Socke vs Dimaga and I think it might have been at the most recent homestory cup on crevasse iirc, it was a terrible game. It shouldn't be the basis for anything.
I remember that game for how long it was but I don't remember exactly what happened in it. Problem with mass voidrays is that fungal + neural + corruptors is too strong vs them and infested terrans do well vs small numbers of voidray.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 04:14 Xaeldaren wrote:
This seems really interesting. I love playing macro games PvZ so this is a must read for me.
I LOVE the idea of double robo to get up an observer network and allow mass warp prism harass but mutalisks scare the crap out of me. What would you suggest with this style if you smell mutalisks - simply avoid double robo altogether and go for the usual templar tech?
I would suggest not going double robo if you at all suspect a mutalisk switch.
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Nobody should be complaining about archon toilet, at least with this game as evidence. Losira specifically moved all of his broodlords into the vortex, even though he knew about the archons. (or maybe he didn't because they were cloaked? he had to).
Zerg needs to flank the mothership/deathball with their corruptors/broodlords, as monk suggested above. This is just the same as the way that protoss needs to split against emp or fungal rather than 1a around the map.
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Finally glad someone wrote a strategy post outlining how useful/good carriers are. It's a misconception they are bad. They aren't.
It seems like there is no real good hard counter to a maxed out protoss with mass carriers in PvZ imo...just from games i've seen / played before. The only option for Zerg at that point seems to be "make more corruptors" and have a huge resource bank b4 engages, but naturally protoss will have a good resource bank as well, so I think at that point...
It's still a good situation for protoss. Just like TvP, PvZ....if there are vikings left over in the sky after killing all collosus, protoss comes out with an advantage from being able to switch to pure ground remaxes making the remaining vikings useless supply. I'm sure it's the same deal PvZ with carriers vs corruptors. If you lose the carrriers, you remax pure ground and go attack their expansions while they have just the corruptors which don't shoot down...and if you don't lose the carriers...you still win...win win situation.
Nice OP, carriers are baller as hell, literally lol.
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vs. Infestor/BL I feel like I accomplish the same thing that carriers do with VR/HT. Is that not correct? Usually if Zergs army attacks I can fight and be confident of getting any infestors with storm and/or feedback so that they don't have time to get off the chain fungals that wreck the VRs...
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United States8476 Posts
On December 06 2011 04:42 tehemperorer wrote:
vs. Infestor/BL I feel like I accomplish the same thing that carriers do with VR/HT. Is that not correct? Usually if Zergs army attacks I can fight and be confident of getting any infestors with storm and/or feedback so that they don't have time to get off the chain fungals that wreck the VRs...
I wouldn't get too caught up on the carrier thing. You should only get carriers after a mothership and when you're in a dominating position. You can't reliably storm and feedback infestors being protected behind broodlings/lings/roaches. The infestors, however, can easily fungal and neural voidrays that try to go for broodlords.
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I really did not like how Brown went for Colo after taking a 3rd. Isn't Blink + 1 Robo for Immortals, Warp Prism and Obs a much better choice? Good Blink micro with FFs really nullifies Roaches and lings from a defensive position. Then you can transition into Colo or whatever.
But I feel like taking a 3rd then going Colo leaves you really vulnerable to aggressive Zergs. They don't even have to win the battle, if they just trade while teching and expanding, it can really leave the Protoss far behind.
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On December 06 2011 03:13 IcemanAsi wrote:
Hi,
I'm obviously not gonna argue with NrGmonk who knows about a hundred times more then I do about this game but I want to throw something in here.I found the effective use of the archon toilet to be a huge dissapointment and for me, it completely ruined the game.
This mechanic has been declared by blizzard to be an exploit and I have to say that I agree. Obvisouly the patch implemented in 1.3.0 was ineffective due to air unit scattering slower then ground units. I thought it took all the depth out of the game and turned a balanced beautiful game into a farce.
I don't understand how people who take this game seriously can think that was a proper ending to the game. I want to honestly ask you NrGmonk, didn't you find the use of the archon toilet deplorable?
Actually they nerfed archon toilet pretty hard a couple of patches ago. It doesn't work anymore except on broodlords because these are to slow and can't spread out well when the archon toilet finishes. It might seem that mothership counters mass brood, but I am still waiting for a zerg who splits his broods. It always pains me to see 15 broods going into 1 vortex, while with some micro it would have been only 4-5.
Having played many pvz 's at high lvl, I can say you mothership is the only solution to >10 broods.
Edit: watched game. OMG why did Losira moved his broods on purpose into the vortex?!
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On December 06 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:Finally glad someone wrote a strategy post outlining how useful/good carriers are. It's a misconception they are bad. They aren't. It seems like there is no real good hard counter to a maxed out protoss with mass carriers in PvZ imo...just from games i've seen / played before. The only option for Zerg at that point seems to be "make more corruptors" and have a huge resource bank b4 engages, but naturally protoss will have a good resource bank as well, so I think at that point... It's still a good situation for protoss. Just like TvP, PvZ....if there are vikings left over in the sky after killing all collosus, protoss comes out with an advantage from being able to switch to pure ground remaxes making the remaining vikings useless supply. I'm sure it's the same deal PvZ with carriers vs corruptors. If you lose the carrriers, you remax pure ground and go attack their expansions while they have just the corruptors which don't shoot down...and if you don't lose the carriers...you still win...win win situation. Nice OP, carriers are baller as hell, literally lol.
Lol Avilo you still managed to QQ about PvT even though this is a PvZ discussion.
I like the concepts Brown has put into play here, honestly macro style with harassment and pressure is the future of PvZ. Timing attacks are risky and don't always work, while strong macro play is overall safer as long as you have good scouting.
I'd like to point out that if Zerg simply SPREAD their units then vortex generally only grabs maybe 5-6 units total, and late game when you have a maxed army that isn't a huge deal. The trick is knowing when you should back off if he got enough units with a vortex or making sure your spread is good. If you allow 10 Brood lords to get vortexed due to a lack of spread then that is your fault for being lazy and attack moving, and yes, you deserve to lose.
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EPT
