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United States8476 Posts
On February 13 2012 09:54 chestnutcc wrote: Parting vs Nestea, illustrating precisely why void rays do nothing to prevent roaches swamping you. Imo stargate is a good choice to delay mutas, but it can't keep roaches at bay. I watched every game of that series and I have no idea what you're talking about. If you're talking about the game on Daybreak, there are many things you don't understand about my fundamental point. I was talking specifically about a macro build that specifically gets the voidray for defense against roaches. The voidray would have to be perfectly placed and it would discourage/help stop all roach based timings between 8:00 and 12:00. At this timing, the zerg won't have enough roaches to effectively threaten you with a voidray on the field and roach speed will only finish at the earliest at around 10:20. In the game you're referring to, Parting gets voidrays for a 2 stage 2 base all-in and clumps his voidrays with his main army as he's moving across the map, definitely not in position to deter roaches. Nestea is allowed to counterattack after he holds off the first stage of Parting's attack, around 14:00, way after roach speed is allowed to finish.
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The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Firstly, it demonstrates that in a straight up fight, voids will take a long time to kill roaches (in the daybreak game they took forever even with gateway support), time which you do not have. If it worked for Brown, it was a meta game thing where Losira did not choose to exploit the timing window (Brown had the timing attack in mind but abandoned it, at best his army strength was the same as Parting's who opted for an all in). Secondly, void ray positioning is a deterrent, if they don't take the hint, they can trade quite well, certainly deny your third. I love your builds Monk, but I think you overstate the defensive advantage of a void ray. That honour still goes to the sentry.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 15 2012 00:31 chestnutcc wrote: The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Firstly, it demonstrates that in a straight up fight, voids will take a long time to kill roaches (in the daybreak game they took forever even with gateway support), time which you do not have. If it worked for Brown, it was a meta game thing where Losira did not choose to exploit the timing window (Brown had the timing attack in mind but abandoned it, at best his army strength was the same as Parting's who opted for an all in). Secondly, void ray positioning is a deterrent, if they don't take the hint, they can trade quite well, certainly deny your third. I love your builds Monk, but I think you overstate the defensive advantage of a void ray. That honour still goes to the sentry. Still have no idea what you're talking about. Between 8:00 and 10:20, you won't have roach speed, so you can't even begin moving across the map. If you move out at exactly 10:20, the "weakest" timing, Protoss will still have cannons + sentries + a sim city at his third. Then a colossi pops out at 12:20. The game you're referring to didn't demonstrate anything. If you can't provide a game where Brown's build or a similar voidray based macro build was busted with 3 base roaches and the Protoss didn't make glaring mistakes such as mis-positioning or bad sim, then you don't really have an argument.
Firstly, it demonstrates that in a straight up fight, voids will take a long time to kill roaches (in the daybreak game they took forever even with gateway support), time which you do not have. Uncharged voids vs speed roaches and lings
Secondly, void ray positioning is a deterrent, if they don't take the hint, they can trade quite well, certainly deny your third. What?
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On February 15 2012 00:31 chestnutcc wrote: The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Firstly, it demonstrates that in a straight up fight, voids will take a long time to kill roaches (in the daybreak game they took forever even with gateway support), time which you do not have. If it worked for Brown, it was a meta game thing where Losira did not choose to exploit the timing window (Brown had the timing attack in mind but abandoned it, at best his army strength was the same as Parting's who opted for an all in). Secondly, void ray positioning is a deterrent, if they don't take the hint, they can trade quite well, certainly deny your third. I love your builds Monk, but I think you overstate the defensive advantage of a void ray. That honour still goes to the sentry.
If you think he's wrong, give a reason. The fact that it's from the GSL causes a person to think that maybe he's done some research and found that it's safe. Maybe it was a blind risk staked on the idea that Losira wouldn't roach rush. So do some analysis. Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours? I haven't tested it myself, but random intuition tells me the number is pretty high, high enough that a couple rounds of production from gateways while his roaches waddle across the map should be sufficient to hold even against a really hard rush - provided no hydras are present and speed is not done.
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On February 15 2012 00:16 kcdc wrote: I actually have no idea what counters 2 base infestor on large maps. Mass zealot timings can kill it early if Z doesn't make enough spines (often the case), and colossus timings are good on small maps where you can defend the attack and then go kill him, but on large maps (read: TDA), it seems like Z can run around your army and counter-attack to pin you in your base until they complete their 3-base hive rush. I know it's a low-econ hive, but infestor+BL is still insanely strong against your colossus composition, and the hive comes so quickly with the 2-base infestor strat.
Yea. Low-econ hive off of infestor is still difficult and pretty common in diamond where so many zergs are content with 50-60 drones. I saw Sen do a two base infestor into muta against HwangSin last night. It was pretty dirty. I don't favor the VR openings because of the prevalence of 2-base infestor and muta in diamond. But I have been taking a fast third off of warp prism harass. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I always get a good scout of their tech.
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The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter.
Excuse me? How can we have a discussion if "circumstances...in the game do not matter"? In conversations about strategy, if we don't discuss "circumstances," we engage in masterbatory speculation. Circumstances and specifics ground discussion and hold participants responsible to the burden of evidence.
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On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them.
It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields.
Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third.
Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage.
I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do.
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On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:31 chestnutcc wrote: The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Firstly, it demonstrates that in a straight up fight, voids will take a long time to kill roaches (in the daybreak game they took forever even with gateway support), time which you do not have. If it worked for Brown, it was a meta game thing where Losira did not choose to exploit the timing window (Brown had the timing attack in mind but abandoned it, at best his army strength was the same as Parting's who opted for an all in). Secondly, void ray positioning is a deterrent, if they don't take the hint, they can trade quite well, certainly deny your third. I love your builds Monk, but I think you overstate the defensive advantage of a void ray. That honour still goes to the sentry. If you think he's wrong, give a reason. The fact that it's from the GSL causes a person to think that maybe he's done some research and found that it's safe. Maybe it was a blind risk staked on the idea that Losira wouldn't roach rush. So do some analysis. Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours? I haven't tested it myself, but random intuition tells me the number is pretty high, high enough that a couple rounds of production from gateways while his roaches waddle across the map should be sufficient to hold even against a really hard rush - provided no hydras are present and speed is not done.
Its a personal opinion, mostly formed by watching Stephano's PvZ. The Brown build is a meta game thing, based off on who his opponent is.
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On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do.
What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches.
On February 15 2012 01:20 skatbone wrote:Excuse me? How can we have a discussion if "circumstances...in the game do not matter"? In conversations about strategy, if we don't discuss "circumstances," we engage in masterbatory speculation. Circumstances and specifics ground discussion and hold participants responsible to the burden of evidence.
The circumstances in those games were of a 2 base toss against mass rallied roach. Any 3 base toss will have a lower army count.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:20 skatbone wrote:The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Excuse me? How can we have a discussion if "circumstances...in the game do not matter"? In conversations about strategy, if we don't discuss "circumstances," we engage in masterbatory speculation. Circumstances and specifics ground discussion and hold participants responsible to the burden of evidence. The circumstances in those games were of a 2 base toss against mass rallied roach. Any 3 base toss will have a lower army count. You ignored all my points. In that game, the toss army was out of position with a random allin build with a completely different timing when speed was finished. In the brown build, it's a specific build designed to stop those pushes with correct unit positioning/sim city/army composition and much later roach speed finishing.
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On February 25 2012 01:20 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. On February 15 2012 01:20 skatbone wrote:The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Excuse me? How can we have a discussion if "circumstances...in the game do not matter"? In conversations about strategy, if we don't discuss "circumstances," we engage in masterbatory speculation. Circumstances and specifics ground discussion and hold participants responsible to the burden of evidence. The circumstances in those games were of a 2 base toss against mass rallied roach. Any 3 base toss will have a lower army count. You ignored all my points. In that game, the toss army was out of position with a random allin build with a completely different timing when speed was finished. In the brown build, it's a specific build designed to stop those pushes with correct unit positioning/sim city/army composition and much later roach speed finishing.
Like I said, its mostly Stephano's PvZ style which makes me nervous about super fast thirds. There have been many recent examples of it. There is a singular point about your claim that I contest, that a single void ray deflects 3 base roach pressure. If you can show any example of stargate based macro play successfully and consistently getting a third up by the time mentioned in this post against Stephano's style, my doubts will be quashed.
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On February 25 2012 03:07 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 01:20 NrGmonk wrote:On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. On February 15 2012 01:20 skatbone wrote:The circumstances and strategies in the game do not matter. Excuse me? How can we have a discussion if "circumstances...in the game do not matter"? In conversations about strategy, if we don't discuss "circumstances," we engage in masterbatory speculation. Circumstances and specifics ground discussion and hold participants responsible to the burden of evidence. The circumstances in those games were of a 2 base toss against mass rallied roach. Any 3 base toss will have a lower army count. You ignored all my points. In that game, the toss army was out of position with a random allin build with a completely different timing when speed was finished. In the brown build, it's a specific build designed to stop those pushes with correct unit positioning/sim city/army composition and much later roach speed finishing. Like I said, its mostly Stephano's PvZ style which makes me nervous about super fast thirds. There have been many recent examples of it. There is a singular point about your claim that I contest, that a single void ray deflects 3 base roach pressure. If you can show any example of stargate based macro play successfully and consistently getting a third up by the time mentioned in this post against Stephano's style, my doubts will be quashed. If you don't feel comfortable, make 2 void rays instead of 1.
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On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches.
You didn't read the post he replied to. I'll quote it for you and bold the relevant section.
On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
Edit: Actually, kcdc's response says roach speed too. So, I guess you're just wrong. They move the same speed.
To clarify, from the liquipedia:
"Once the Void Ray's beam is activated within its 6 range, there's an additional leeway of 2 if the target moves away. The Void Ray can shoot while moving. It attacks anything within range in a 40° angle in front of it. While moving however, targets are chosen based on target priority so it may not necessarily continue to shoot a target it was previously ordered to attack. "
This might mean you may not be able to attack move it or just leave it where it is once it spots roaches. You might have to move it manually and let it autoshoot, depending on how quickly it accelerates.
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On February 25 2012 04:12 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. You didn't read the post he replied to. I'll quote it for you and bold the relevant section. Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
Edit: Actually, kcdc's response says roach speed too. So, I guess you're just wrong. They move the same speed. To clarify, from the liquipedia: "Once the Void Ray's beam is activated within its 6 range, there's an additional leeway of 2 if the target moves away. The Void Ray can shoot while moving. It attacks anything within range in a 40° angle in front of it. While moving however, targets are chosen based on target priority so it may not necessarily continue to shoot a target it was previously ordered to attack. " This might mean you may not be able to attack move it or just leave it where it is once it spots roaches. You might have to move it manually and let it autoshoot, depending on how quickly it accelerates.
At least test it in the unit tester before posting.
Edit: To make myself clear academic friend, the void ray pauses while charging on a roach,so it gives time for the rest of the ball to get a slight lead on it, and since they move at the same speed, after the void has dispatched of the roach or two it snags, it trails behind the rest. And please no void ray stutter stepping.
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On February 25 2012 04:46 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 04:12 Treehead wrote:On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. You didn't read the post he replied to. I'll quote it for you and bold the relevant section. On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
Edit: Actually, kcdc's response says roach speed too. So, I guess you're just wrong. They move the same speed. To clarify, from the liquipedia: "Once the Void Ray's beam is activated within its 6 range, there's an additional leeway of 2 if the target moves away. The Void Ray can shoot while moving. It attacks anything within range in a 40° angle in front of it. While moving however, targets are chosen based on target priority so it may not necessarily continue to shoot a target it was previously ordered to attack. " This might mean you may not be able to attack move it or just leave it where it is once it spots roaches. You might have to move it manually and let it autoshoot, depending on how quickly it accelerates. At least test it in the unit tester before posting. Edit: To make myself clear academic friend, the void ray pauses while charging on a roach,so it gives time for the rest of the ball to get a slight lead on it, and since they move at the same speed, after the void has dispatched of the roach or two it snags, it trails behind the rest. And please no void ray stutter stepping.
You don't have to stutter step. Read what I just wrote. You just have to move in from behind. The VR fires automatically at things in front of it while its moving. Tbh, I've seen it autofire sometimes and not others, but didn't realize the direction was the trigger. This is not too hard to do. And I think the pros would spend a ton of APM if it allowed them to kill a whole bunch of roaches without losing anything, let alone the 10 APM it takes to tell a VR to move along the roaches path to your third.
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About the slow roach vs void situation:
I might have taken for granted that everybody has experience killing slow roaches off creep with void rays. I love opening with zealot+void pressure, so I do this micro almost every PvZ.
What you do is you select your voids, target fire them on the leading roach, and then shift click each roach in order from the front to the back. Voids move at the same speed as slow roaches off creep, and they shoot while moving, so any roach that gets target fired will be killed (and quickly). The trick is understanding that the void won't move while shooting until its target is 6 range away, and it can't acquire new targets that are greater than 6 range away, so if you let the void select its own target, it will naturally pick up the roach at the back of the pack, and when that roach dies, the void won't be able to get in range of any new roaches. But if you target fire them in order from from front to back, the void will dispatch the leading roach, then pick up the second roach, then the third, and so on while always staying 6 range from the front of the roach pack.
A charged void ray can kill a roach in 6 game seconds. If Z wants to attack P with slow roaches on a moderately large map (say 60 second rush distance at slow roach speed), one void ray can kill 10 of the roaches before they reach the Protoss base. In other words, the attack will suck. If Z waits for roach speed, one void might be able to kill the lead roach and do a little damage to the back roach.
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On February 25 2012 05:30 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 04:46 chestnutcc wrote:On February 25 2012 04:12 Treehead wrote:On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. You didn't read the post he replied to. I'll quote it for you and bold the relevant section. On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
Edit: Actually, kcdc's response says roach speed too. So, I guess you're just wrong. They move the same speed. To clarify, from the liquipedia: "Once the Void Ray's beam is activated within its 6 range, there's an additional leeway of 2 if the target moves away. The Void Ray can shoot while moving. It attacks anything within range in a 40° angle in front of it. While moving however, targets are chosen based on target priority so it may not necessarily continue to shoot a target it was previously ordered to attack. " This might mean you may not be able to attack move it or just leave it where it is once it spots roaches. You might have to move it manually and let it autoshoot, depending on how quickly it accelerates. At least test it in the unit tester before posting. Edit: To make myself clear academic friend, the void ray pauses while charging on a roach,so it gives time for the rest of the ball to get a slight lead on it, and since they move at the same speed, after the void has dispatched of the roach or two it snags, it trails behind the rest. And please no void ray stutter stepping. You don't have to stutter step. Read what I just wrote. You just have to move in from behind. The VR fires automatically at things in front of it while its moving. Tbh, I've seen it autofire sometimes and not others, but didn't realize the direction was the trigger. This is not too hard to do. And I think the pros would spend a ton of APM if it allowed them to kill a whole bunch of roaches without losing anything, let alone the 10 APM it takes to tell a VR to move along the roaches path to your third.
What I'm saying is this doesn't work. Whats said below may however.
On February 25 2012 06:51 kcdc wrote: About the slow roach vs void situation:
I might have taken for granted that everybody has experience killing slow roaches off creep with void rays. I love opening with zealot+void pressure, so I do this micro almost every PvZ.
What you do is you select your voids, target fire them on the leading roach, and then shift click each roach in order from the front to the back. Voids move at the same speed as slow roaches off creep, and they shoot while moving, so any roach that gets target fired will be killed (and quickly). The trick is understanding that the void won't move while shooting until its target is 6 range away, and it can't acquire new targets that are greater than 6 range away, so if you let the void select its own target, it will naturally pick up the roach at the back of the pack, and when that roach dies, the void won't be able to get in range of any new roaches. But if you target fire them in order from from front to back, the void will dispatch the leading roach, then pick up the second roach, then the third, and so on while always staying 6 range from the front of the roach pack.
A charged void ray can kill a roach in 6 game seconds. If Z wants to attack P with slow roaches on a moderately large map (say 60 second rush distance at slow roach speed), one void ray can kill 10 of the roaches before they reach the Protoss base. In other words, the attack will suck. If Z waits for roach speed, one void might be able to kill the lead roach and do a little damage to the back roach.
Thanks for the tip kcdc.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2012 07:21 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:30 Treehead wrote:On February 25 2012 04:46 chestnutcc wrote:On February 25 2012 04:12 Treehead wrote:On February 24 2012 23:00 chestnutcc wrote:On February 15 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
A: All of them. It's silly for Z to try to bust your third without some sort of lair tech. Roach speed is required for a roach bust against a well-position void ray, and burrow+tunneling claws or OL speed+drops are very helpful for overcoming forcefields. Getting a void ray gives you a nice timing window where Z can't attack you without getting their lair tech online which typically means you're safe to do greedy tech or expanding until about 11 minutes (sometimes later) against Z that delay gas for a fast third. Of course, if you decide to harass with your void ray rather than blocking Z's attack path, roaches can sneak by and do damage. I'm not convinced that Brown's build was safe against everything Z can do, but it was reasonably safe against most of the things Z would likely do. What will happen is that the void ray will take out one or two roaches, and then trail behind the roach ball. On day break for example, there may even be a natural split of roaches rallied from 3 hatches. You didn't read the post he replied to. I'll quote it for you and bold the relevant section. On February 15 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: Sit your void ray right at the edge of the zerg's creep. Roaches are the same speed as voids before the speed upgrade. How many roaches can your void ray kill between his base and yours?
Edit: Actually, kcdc's response says roach speed too. So, I guess you're just wrong. They move the same speed. To clarify, from the liquipedia: "Once the Void Ray's beam is activated within its 6 range, there's an additional leeway of 2 if the target moves away. The Void Ray can shoot while moving. It attacks anything within range in a 40° angle in front of it. While moving however, targets are chosen based on target priority so it may not necessarily continue to shoot a target it was previously ordered to attack. " This might mean you may not be able to attack move it or just leave it where it is once it spots roaches. You might have to move it manually and let it autoshoot, depending on how quickly it accelerates. At least test it in the unit tester before posting. Edit: To make myself clear academic friend, the void ray pauses while charging on a roach,so it gives time for the rest of the ball to get a slight lead on it, and since they move at the same speed, after the void has dispatched of the roach or two it snags, it trails behind the rest. And please no void ray stutter stepping. You don't have to stutter step. Read what I just wrote. You just have to move in from behind. The VR fires automatically at things in front of it while its moving. Tbh, I've seen it autofire sometimes and not others, but didn't realize the direction was the trigger. This is not too hard to do. And I think the pros would spend a ton of APM if it allowed them to kill a whole bunch of roaches without losing anything, let alone the 10 APM it takes to tell a VR to move along the roaches path to your third. What I'm saying is this doesn't work. Whats said below may however. Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 06:51 kcdc wrote: About the slow roach vs void situation:
I might have taken for granted that everybody has experience killing slow roaches off creep with void rays. I love opening with zealot+void pressure, so I do this micro almost every PvZ.
What you do is you select your voids, target fire them on the leading roach, and then shift click each roach in order from the front to the back. Voids move at the same speed as slow roaches off creep, and they shoot while moving, so any roach that gets target fired will be killed (and quickly). The trick is understanding that the void won't move while shooting until its target is 6 range away, and it can't acquire new targets that are greater than 6 range away, so if you let the void select its own target, it will naturally pick up the roach at the back of the pack, and when that roach dies, the void won't be able to get in range of any new roaches. But if you target fire them in order from from front to back, the void will dispatch the leading roach, then pick up the second roach, then the third, and so on while always staying 6 range from the front of the roach pack.
A charged void ray can kill a roach in 6 game seconds. If Z wants to attack P with slow roaches on a moderately large map (say 60 second rush distance at slow roach speed), one void ray can kill 10 of the roaches before they reach the Protoss base. In other words, the attack will suck. If Z waits for roach speed, one void might be able to kill the lead roach and do a little damage to the back roach. Thanks for the tip kcdc. \
Thank you so much, i have always been babysitting my voids and couldn't figure out how to do this an easier way. I wanted to say what you said but i had no idea the proper method as i play zerg so i have no idea how people i watch have been doing it. (but not anymore :D).
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