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United States8476 Posts
On February 06 2012 02:03 sofakng wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 09:03 happyness wrote:On February 05 2012 06:45 sofakng wrote:
I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push. Hahaha "I played this once and I lost so it doesn't work." As Gormonk said, this isn't an exact build order and was meant more for discussion of concepts to take into consideration when playing against zerg on certain maps. I didn't say it didnt work I said I did not like the style. The double robo comes as you take your third a bit after or if you ever have a surplus of money. It just seems super weak to a midgame push with roach and hydra or mutlpronged harass or muta. I didnt follow the build exactly and teched faster to collosus to suit the fast hydra push and shorter rush distance but it just doesnt seem viable to me. Mock me if you want but I really wanna this build stand up to a lot of different builds before any real conclusions are drawn from it. Bug Brown for a replay pack. :p Edit: and to clarify I don't really know bo's except for pvp and wing most things. Is it good? Probably not. Does it make me ideal for testing this? Again probably no but I've gotten far enough on mechanics and decisions making that I feel like I can pick up builds pretty fast and execute them well.
There's a lot of small nuances that most people don't see in the build.
I'll let you into some secrets. The midgame push with roach/hydra is dealt with by the first colossi that pops out between 12:00 and 12:20. If you don't do the build exactly, of course you'll die. If you follow it exactly, you'll have a colossi out right before the push comes. I also reference large maps in my posts a lot, which vastly deters hydra pushes.
Vs mutas you rely on your first phoenix to scout his tech. If it's mutas, you have to cancel your robo bay, throw up a twilight, and play stand from there. Versus a later muta switch, pressure with your colossi army while getting blink(which you should be getting anyway).
But seriously, you tried this on ladder once and it "feels" risky? -_-.
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I ask again how to deal with archon toilet. It seems so imbalanced as there isn't anything you can do about it. I mean, you CAN spread out your brood lords, but he has two vortexes so theres a guaranteed 6-8 brood lords vortexed, if you split a lot. And then you have about 10 broods left on the field which he can just blink under.
If you have a replay of someone holding off archon toilet, I will gladly watch it.
But even worse is storm toilet.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 06 2012 04:19 llKenZyll wrote:
I ask again how to deal with archon toilet. It seems so imbalanced as there isn't anything you can do about it. I mean, you CAN spread out your brood lords, but he has two vortexes so theres a guaranteed 6-8 brood lords vortexed, if you split a lot. And then you have about 10 broods left on the field which he can just blink under.
If you have a replay of someone holding off archon toilet, I will gladly watch it.
But even worse is storm toilet.
Check Grubby vs Stephano on Metal game 1 from Shoutcraft invitational semi finals.
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On February 06 2012 03:35 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 02:03 sofakng wrote:On February 05 2012 09:03 happyness wrote:On February 05 2012 06:45 sofakng wrote:
I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push. Hahaha "I played this once and I lost so it doesn't work." As Gormonk said, this isn't an exact build order and was meant more for discussion of concepts to take into consideration when playing against zerg on certain maps. I didn't say it didnt work I said I did not like the style. The double robo comes as you take your third a bit after or if you ever have a surplus of money. It just seems super weak to a midgame push with roach and hydra or mutlpronged harass or muta. I didnt follow the build exactly and teched faster to collosus to suit the fast hydra push and shorter rush distance but it just doesnt seem viable to me. Mock me if you want but I really wanna this build stand up to a lot of different builds before any real conclusions are drawn from it. Bug Brown for a replay pack. :p Edit: and to clarify I don't really know bo's except for pvp and wing most things. Is it good? Probably not. Does it make me ideal for testing this? Again probably no but I've gotten far enough on mechanics and decisions making that I feel like I can pick up builds pretty fast and execute them well. There's a lot of small nuances that most people don't see in the build. I'll let you into some secrets. The midgame push with roach/hydra is dealt with by the first colossi that pops out between 12:00 and 12:20. If you don't do the build exactly, of course you'll die. If you follow it exactly, you'll have a colossi out right before the push comes. I also reference large maps in my posts a lot, which vastly deters hydra pushes. Vs mutas you rely on your first phoenix to scout his tech. If it's mutas, you have to cancel your robo bay, throw up a twilight, and play stand from there. Versus a later muta switch, pressure with your colossi army while getting blink(which you should be getting anyway). But seriously, you tried this on ladder once and it "feels" risky? -_-.
yes it felt risky... Again the map was probably the biggest difference shakuras has a much shorter rush distance and no center rocks to make the push delayed even more. Ill have to play around with it a bit but faster thirds vs zerg always just seem riskier to me. I am obviously going to tyr it again but this initial testing felt a bit riskier. I''ll have to try it on entombed or tal darim maybe but even tal darim not in cross is decently close. I'll tyr it out again a few times and see how it goes so you can stop giving me then -_- face and to see if i change my mind.
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Dunno how people can really doubt the viability of this, Brown had plenty of room in his build to be more conservative and defensive if Losira pulled out something scary earlier on. Protoss gets so scary ultra lategame, very strong army but still great harass potential with prism and DT.
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I like this build more now. The only scary thing I can see is if your marco is sub par and you cant get out everything in time or you lose your void ray.
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Replay of me attempting this style in a CSL match.
Game is the first set of University of Utah vs University of Washington from this last Saturday's CSL match. UofU (my school) ended up taking the match 3:0.
I don't execute the build with much finesse or exactitude, but my opponent's low drone count renders this largely irrelevant.
Anyway, if anyone is interested in what a mid-masters level execution of this style looks like, check out the replay.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 07 2012 09:32 Chemist391 wrote:Replay of me attempting this style in a CSL match.Game is the first set of University of Utah vs University of Washington from this last Saturday's CSL match. UofU (my school) ended up taking the match 3:0. I don't execute the build with much finesse or exactitude, but my opponent's low drone count renders this largely irrelevant. Anyway, if anyone is interested in what a mid-masters level execution of this style looks like, check out the replay.
Cool. Your late robo almost lost you the game. Also, I wouldn't recommend adding stargates until a. You've gotten templar already and b. you're sure he's committing to broodlords already.
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On February 07 2012 10:14 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 09:32 Chemist391 wrote:Replay of me attempting this style in a CSL match.Game is the first set of University of Utah vs University of Washington from this last Saturday's CSL match. UofU (my school) ended up taking the match 3:0. I don't execute the build with much finesse or exactitude, but my opponent's low drone count renders this largely irrelevant. Anyway, if anyone is interested in what a mid-masters level execution of this style looks like, check out the replay. Cool. Your late robo almost lost you the game. Also, I wouldn't recommend adding stargates until a. You've gotten templar already and b. you're sure he's committing to broodlords already.
Thanks for the feedback!
Stargates: I...like carriers. But I think your suggestions are correct/good.
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NrGmonk,
This post is great on how which direction to play PvZ, and I have been looking for some standard way to play against zerg, similar to the Creator PvT\Puzzle Push into standard Colossus-> Double Forge Charge\Templar. I also wish that PvZ was more like TvZ, where you have two stable midgame compositions where skill is what seperate the two players. I feel PvZ is more unrefined, and builds on the delicate balance between greed and timings.
My request would be whether if the great guide writers in the TL Protoss community could make a guide that could outline a standard PvZ gameplay, based on colossus, aggressive expanding and double robo. Things that could be good to include: Viability of Stargate openings, strategy on different maps, how to defend against roaches, hydra, muta, considering mass dropping, even against muta (Terran does it, why not protoss?). I'm especially curious about how one would fare against Stephano style denial of 3rd.
I see we have many builds that exploit certain weaknesses of Zerg, such as Pylon block, the new contain build and voidray\+1 push, but they don't seem/feel like solid openings that necessarily leads me into a favourable lategame if the Zerg is good at defending such pushes. (Of course, I realise it depends a lot on the map)
Anyway, thank you for this wonderful discussion thread. I hope PvZ can be more figured out. I'm just in Diamond, so I guess I'm not really qualified to head out on a venture such as this one.
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^ i'm thinking of doing a comprehensive pvz thing at some point but i still have much to learn.
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On February 08 2012 08:16 Alejandrisha wrote:
^ i'm thinking of doing a comprehensive pvz thing at some point but i still have much to learn.
I was thinking about writing of standard PvZ FFE into single SG + fast third. Maybe we should join forces to defeat evil...
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United States8476 Posts
By your powers combined...
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On February 08 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:
By your powers combined...
Want to join our club too?
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On February 06 2012 03:35 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 02:03 sofakng wrote:On February 05 2012 09:03 happyness wrote:On February 05 2012 06:45 sofakng wrote:
I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push. Hahaha "I played this once and I lost so it doesn't work." As Gormonk said, this isn't an exact build order and was meant more for discussion of concepts to take into consideration when playing against zerg on certain maps. I didn't say it didnt work I said I did not like the style. The double robo comes as you take your third a bit after or if you ever have a surplus of money. It just seems super weak to a midgame push with roach and hydra or mutlpronged harass or muta. I didnt follow the build exactly and teched faster to collosus to suit the fast hydra push and shorter rush distance but it just doesnt seem viable to me. Mock me if you want but I really wanna this build stand up to a lot of different builds before any real conclusions are drawn from it. Bug Brown for a replay pack. :p Edit: and to clarify I don't really know bo's except for pvp and wing most things. Is it good? Probably not. Does it make me ideal for testing this? Again probably no but I've gotten far enough on mechanics and decisions making that I feel like I can pick up builds pretty fast and execute them well. There's a lot of small nuances that most people don't see in the build. I'll let you into some secrets. The midgame push with roach/hydra is dealt with by the first colossi that pops out between 12:00 and 12:20. If you don't do the build exactly, of course you'll die. If you follow it exactly, you'll have a colossi out right before the push comes. I also reference large maps in my posts a lot, which vastly deters hydra pushes. Vs mutas you rely on your first phoenix to scout his tech. If it's mutas, you have to cancel your robo bay, throw up a twilight, and play stand from there. Versus a later muta switch, pressure with your colossi army while getting blink(which you should be getting anyway). But seriously, you tried this on ladder once and it "feels" risky? -_-.
I actually try to pop two Colo out at that time and smash the push (if I'm given proper scouting info). Then I roll over him when the next two finish. Works every time.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 08 2012 08:26 CecilSunkure wrote:Want to join our club too?
K, but I'm a bit disappointed you didn't get my reference =(.
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On February 08 2012 08:29 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 08:26 CecilSunkure wrote:On February 08 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:
By your powers combined... Want to join our club too? K, but I'm a bit disappointed you didn't get my reference =(.
I didn't, sorry  My parents didn't let me watch TV or play StarCraft until I moved out lol. Edit: Actually they didn't want to let me then either but I moved out, so I could.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Planet_and_the_Planeteers ?
Also, I pm you and Alej with the secret details.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 08 2012 08:32 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 08:29 NrGmonk wrote:On February 08 2012 08:26 CecilSunkure wrote:On February 08 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:
By your powers combined... Want to join our club too? K, but I'm a bit disappointed you didn't get my reference =(. I didn't, sorry My parents didn't let me watch TV or play StarCraft until I moved out lol. Edit: Actually they didn't want to let me then either but I moved out, so I could. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Planet_and_the_Planeteers ? Also, I pm you and Alej with the secret details.
You poor child
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United States8476 Posts
On February 08 2012 08:52 Alejandrisha wrote:
I AM CAPTAIN PLANET
Late to the party much?
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EPT
