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United States8476 Posts
On December 18 2011 13:51 Natalya wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 18 2011 11:05 happyness wrote:
I have done the test many times and my corruptors are somewhat clumped too. Corruptors win for me.......
Maybe you miscounted?
I said the mothership had less than 100hp remaining. Could be that my corruption came just after the first hit of the corruptors, could be that when u were running the test the mothership was in front of the army, knowing that I placed it in the back of the army. 100 hp is not that much and i took it as a reference. What i meant is that with 3 archons and 24 stalkers, 12 corru more or less kill the mothership. On December 18 2011 07:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 06:49 Natalya wrote:On December 11 2011 21:46 happyness wrote:On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc.  I did a unit test also with the same units and they killed the mothership just fine, once with 0 upgrades once with maxed. Were your corruptors bunched up? Did you give the toss superior upgrades? Upgrades were 0-0 for both sides. Yes my corruptors were slightly clumped. Let's keep it real, gentlemen, and think about a real game situation. I dont see myself having control group 1) for lings to deflect drops/harass or run by 2) broodlords 3) corru 4) corru 5) corru 6) infestors 7+) hatches and queens If u dont have 3 control groups for ur corru, they're going to clump. Else u have to prepare a big deal before the engagement and can never use ur control group for corru even once or they're going to clump. The op might speak about splitting corru while attacking etc., I think it's simply BS because he doesnt want to plainly admit vortex is op so he would try to talk about how zerg should micro far better than the toss amoving, how Zerg should throw away 5K ressources to kill the mother ship taking extreme risk and forcing a vortex that will not even happen since, as he said himself, there is no point vortexing (it will not be very effective, corru can nearly get out of range of the archons in time). And I didnt even use half the units a Maxed toss would have in my unit test map test. So I think i'm not exagerating while i'm saying that except if toss do something realy wrong it would take 20+ corru to take out the mothership if not 30+. 20 corru: 3K minerals 2K gas lol. And LOLOLOLOL when the op is saying that ressources dont matter in late game :D English is not my mother language and I dont know how to say it, but we have a word for it in french: mauvaise foi! If we take that seriously, that means the advantage Z have with their macro ability should disapear since a maxed Z army ask far more ressources than a Toss army. If u max on broods/infestors/corru u're at an army value of an easy 8k minerals and a ton of gas (not sure of the numnber here, but far more than toss anyway), while a maxed toss army of motherhip colo stalker void will be at something like 6k minerals (and not that much gas compared to the Z). My opinion (cant prove it by any facts) is that the op refuses to admit how far too good archon toilet is, how imbalanced and how clearly it is an exploit by talking about such non realistic things as throw away so much corru in a non sens kamikaze mission. Notice he didnt answer to what i said about doing the test with far less units than a protoss army could have. The pov of the op, to summarize and slightly caricaturize it, is something like : You Z are screwed in the late game while Brown build allow toss to be safely going into late game. But cmon, take it easy!! Don't know what you want me to say. I do think archon toilet is a bit silly in that one spell can decide the game. However, Zerg does have options versus mothership archon toilet. For example, in this game, if Losira had enough overseers and didn't throw his somewhat decently split broodlords into the vortex, he could have had a fighting chance. Ofcourse i agree there were obvious mistakes on Losira's part. I understand it that you are trying to find ways for the Zerg to kill the mothership, even if the situation become a little absurd. I guess I shoudnt be mad at you, even if I'm not really mad, but it's kinda irritating to read most of your posts where you try to adress the problem as if there were no balance problems. Well, i guess whining about balance has never help anyone and my mindset will always be to focus myself on the task of finding solution rather than whining. I think it is your mindset as well, as you are not a blizzard employee. Can I ask you what change would you make if you were a developper (I know it's maybe an impossible question lol)?
Iono, make units spread out more when they come out of vortex?
On December 18 2011 15:09 AegiS_ wrote:
I've been trying this and it works wonders against any zerg who is forced into hydras. To ensure this, I try to get 2 void rays out and surprise him, which often will force hydras. The problem i foresee with getting your 3rd at about 10 minutes though and going stargate is.. what if he just turtles with spores and pops a ton of mutas? How will you defend your 3rd from ling run bys, your main from mutas, etc.
Also what do you think about the 2 void rays instead of one, as 1 never really does damage while 2 void rays with some phoenix after can kill tons of queens, spawning pools etc.. It is 250/150 more but after I do damage / force hydras you can just pull them back and defend your 3rd with them. 2>1 for defending against roach aggression.
Again, as I said in the first sentence of this post, I'm not advocating for the exact strategy that Brown uses and this thread shouldn't be about that. That being said, 2 voidrays and a couple of phoenix are not going to force hydra. Nothing short of 2 stargate will force hydra and even then it's somewhat possible to forgo hydra. If you get 2 voids and a couple of phoenix, your colossi will be delayed and you won't have your first colossi in time to defend against hydra pushes.
Against ling runbys, good blocking, sim city, and zealot/sentry will spot all ling runbys. Against muta, you need to use a combination of pressure and cannons as with any strategy involving colossi versus muta.
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On December 06 2011 01:56 NrGmonk wrote:
2. Just one voidray can allow you to take a fast 3rd on large maps.
Brown is not the first Protoss to use this tactic, as Huk has done this many a time recently. However, not enough people know about it. Just one voidray prevents roach based attacks from the zerg until he can get a mass of either hydras, mutas, corruptors, or infestors. At this time, you can easily take a third while massing zealot/sentry to deal with lings and teching to colossi to deal with either infestors or hydras.
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Hi Monk, I am investigating more into this FFE into void kinda play, cos it sounds fun.
I know it has been discussed here and there in this thread, but would you mind explaining to me why only 1 voidray lets you take a fast 3rd?? It feels like everytime I see ppl do this, Protoss has very minimal units (like 3-4zealots maybe and a voidray+phoenix) and zerg gets like 40supply ahead at these times, and I feel that all zerg has to do is mass roaches and go and bust the front. But for some reason, I never see any zerg do that? If there was mass roach, then although they cant shoot up, how is 1 voidray's DPS going to stop this?
Its the great mystery to me that I have always been wondering!
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On January 13 2012 07:32 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:56 NrGmonk wrote:
2. Just one voidray can allow you to take a fast 3rd on large maps.
Brown is not the first Protoss to use this tactic, as Huk has done this many a time recently. However, not enough people know about it. Just one voidray prevents roach based attacks from the zerg until he can get a mass of either hydras, mutas, corruptors, or infestors. At this time, you can easily take a third while massing zealot/sentry to deal with lings and teching to colossi to deal with either infestors or hydras.
. Hi Monk, I am investigating more into this FFE into void kinda play, cos it sounds fun. I know it has been discussed here and there in this thread, but would you mind explaining to me why only 1 voidray lets you take a fast 3rd?? It feels like everytime I see ppl do this, Protoss has very minimal units (like 3-4zealots maybe and a voidray+phoenix) and zerg gets like 40supply ahead at these times, and I feel that all zerg has to do is mass roaches and go and bust the front. But for some reason, I never see any zerg do that? If there was mass roach, then although they cant shoot up, how is 1 voidray's DPS going to stop this? Its the great mystery to me that I have always been wondering!
This is what I was thinking as well. I have been trying this a lot, and it seems like one void ray can't actually do anything if the zerg straight up attacks you.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 13 2012 07:32 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:56 NrGmonk wrote:
2. Just one voidray can allow you to take a fast 3rd on large maps.
Brown is not the first Protoss to use this tactic, as Huk has done this many a time recently. However, not enough people know about it. Just one voidray prevents roach based attacks from the zerg until he can get a mass of either hydras, mutas, corruptors, or infestors. At this time, you can easily take a third while massing zealot/sentry to deal with lings and teching to colossi to deal with either infestors or hydras.
. Hi Monk, I am investigating more into this FFE into void kinda play, cos it sounds fun. I know it has been discussed here and there in this thread, but would you mind explaining to me why only 1 voidray lets you take a fast 3rd?? It feels like everytime I see ppl do this, Protoss has very minimal units (like 3-4zealots maybe and a voidray+phoenix) and zerg gets like 40supply ahead at these times, and I feel that all zerg has to do is mass roaches and go and bust the front. But for some reason, I never see any zerg do that? If there was mass roach, then although they cant shoot up, how is 1 voidray's DPS going to stop this? Its the great mystery to me that I have always been wondering!
Ok, here's some possible things you might be doing wrong.
1. Trying this on too small a map. Note I said large maps and the map this was done on was quite huge: Daybreak. I suspect that on any significantly smaller such as antiga or shakruas, it will not work so well. Examples of big maps include Daybreak, Talderim, or Termius.
2. You're not positioning your voidray correctly. If you're going to rely on voidray for defense, you have to position it conservatively. That is, you can't go trying to harass or deny a 4th base with it. Rather, your voidray has to be positioned directly in the path between your bases and his so that it can shoot all the way from his base to yours, killing 3-4 roaches and charging up along the way.
3. Not having a suitable followup: The voidray only keeps you safe for a short window of time. You still need a good followup to defend against larger attacks or attacks that involve hydras. You can do this in a variety of ways. Brown chooses a VERY fast colossi while Huk prefers mass gateway units.
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i watched the game, and I'm not that impressed. Brown goes for no damage off two base, which is okay but I dont think that the third at 950 was defendable. at that point he had a voidray and a pheonix, 6 gateways, a robo which only made observers, and a really small sentry stalker zealot army consisting of perhaps 6 sentries, 4 zealots and a handful of stalkers. If losira decided to just attack and punish that he could have easily forced the cancel on the 3rd since he had scouted it the second it was put down by way of ling, and still be on good 3 base saturation off 50 or so drones, putting him in a way favorable situation.
Even though the game didn't play out like that, if you watch, brown is in super awkward position after he losses his small colosuss stalker ball to broods and fungal, being able to only make a few stalkers and templar to fall back on. The only reason brown won imo was because losira lost all his shit to vortex. If you recall dimaga vs JYP game 1 in HSC4 spread army of broods rapes vortex protoss ball.
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I wish more P's would play like this. All those 2base allins are such a joke.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:04 fighter2_40 wrote:
i watched the game, and I'm not that impressed. Brown goes for no damage off two base, which is okay but I dont think that the third at 950 was defendable. at that point he had a voidray and a pheonix, 6 gateways, a robo which only made observers, and a really small sentry stalker zealot army consisting of perhaps 6 sentries, 4 zealots and a handful of stalkers. If losira decided to just attack and punish that he could have easily forced the cancel on the 3rd since he had scouted it the second it was put down by way of ling, and still be on good 3 base saturation off 50 or so drones, putting him in a way favorable situation.
Even though the game didn't play out like that, if you watch, brown is in super awkward position after he losses his small colosuss stalker ball to broods and fungal, being able to only make a few stalkers and templar to fall back on. The only reason brown won imo was because losira lost all his shit to vortex. If you recall dimaga vs JYP game 1 in HSC4 spread army of broods rapes vortex protoss ball.
What attack could Losira possibly have done? I've actually played this strat around 20 times on Daybreak and given good timings in accordance with with Brown's build, no early aggression could kill me. Mass ling attacks get shut down by sentry/zealot. Early roach attacks get shut down by the voidray. Later roach or roach/hydra attacks get shut down by the extremely fast 1st colossi.
I don't really see your point in the 2nd paragraph. JYP lost that game because he tried to attack into spread out mass broodlord/spine. If he had gone carriers, it was an easy win.
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On January 13 2012 07:58 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:32 bankai wrote:On December 06 2011 01:56 NrGmonk wrote:
2. Just one voidray can allow you to take a fast 3rd on large maps.
Brown is not the first Protoss to use this tactic, as Huk has done this many a time recently. However, not enough people know about it. Just one voidray prevents roach based attacks from the zerg until he can get a mass of either hydras, mutas, corruptors, or infestors. At this time, you can easily take a third while massing zealot/sentry to deal with lings and teching to colossi to deal with either infestors or hydras.
. Hi Monk, I am investigating more into this FFE into void kinda play, cos it sounds fun. I know it has been discussed here and there in this thread, but would you mind explaining to me why only 1 voidray lets you take a fast 3rd?? It feels like everytime I see ppl do this, Protoss has very minimal units (like 3-4zealots maybe and a voidray+phoenix) and zerg gets like 40supply ahead at these times, and I feel that all zerg has to do is mass roaches and go and bust the front. But for some reason, I never see any zerg do that? If there was mass roach, then although they cant shoot up, how is 1 voidray's DPS going to stop this? Its the great mystery to me that I have always been wondering! Ok, here's some possible things you might be doing wrong. 1. Trying this on too small a map. Note I said large maps and the map this was done on was quite huge: Daybreak. I suspect that on any significantly smaller such as antiga or shakruas, it will not work so well. Examples of big maps include Daybreak, Talderim, or Termius. 2. You're not positioning your voidray correctly. If you're going to rely on voidray for defense, you have to position it conservatively. That is, you can't go trying to harass or deny a 4th base with it. Rather, your voidray has to be positioned directly in the path between your bases and his so that it can shoot all the way from his base to yours, killing 3-4 roaches and charging up along the way. 3. Not having a suitable followup: The voidray only keeps you safe for a short window of time. You still need a good followup to defend against larger attacks or attacks that involve hydras. You can do this in a variety of ways. Brown chooses a VERY fast colossi while Huk prefers mass gateway units.
THANK YOU MONK!
This is probably one of the best explanations I have read so far! I think some ppl have hinted to one of your points here and there, but this is the best. Can I suggest you get into writing game strategy books, and I sell them for u?? 
Ok so ur implying then this type of play wont work on smaller maps like Shattered? Ohhh...do you have any other suggestions then on builds/follow ups that allow for early thirds and safety against 2-base play?
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Alas, if only this game wouldn't have happened I might still be able to win ZvP. lol
But yeah, I just rewatched this game, and it's weird to think that this game kind of redefined modern lategame PvZ (BL, vs Archon Toilet). I can't say I'm thrilled because I think that the Archon Toilet is fucking ridiculous (although, admittedly, mass BL probably was too powerful versus protoss as well), but it's cool to think how the entire matchup can really be flipped on it's head by one game. Can't wait till HotS and finally being rid of this horror and finally being able to (maybe) win against protoss late game again!
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Monk, I think you're still over-stating what 1 VR can do for you. I've played a lot using voids to defend a third, and 1 void simply doesn't give you enough DPS to defend a third against roach-ling. Also, if Z gets roach speed, you can't kill roaches as they cross the map.
P isn't pressuring Z at all, so Z should have roach speed by 10 or 11 minutes. And an early speed roach timing against this build would kill the 3rd 100% of the time.
From what I can tell from the VOD, at 11:30, Z has roach speed finishing while P has an army of about 5 zealots, 5 sentries, a void ray and a phoenix. It happened to work out for Brown because Losira went for 90 drones and hive tech before thinking about aggression, but if Losira had committed to killing Brown's third when he scouted it at 9:50, he could have attacked off of 60 drones with probably 25-30 speed roaches by 12 min. Brown doesn't have his first colossus until 12:20, and it couldn't be at the third until later than that.
I'm a believer in this style of build. My stalkerless PvZ guide works on a similar theory that VRs make it easier to take a third (that build gets storm, but I've also played it a lot with colossi), but the practice of actually defending the third is more difficult than just saying roaches can't punish you because they don't shoot up. You need multiple void rays, and on a normal sized map where hydras can actually attack, you need to start robo support bay or templar archives before taking your third.
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On January 14 2012 01:58 kcdc wrote:
you need to start robo support bay or templar archives before taking your third.
I'm not convinced on this point yet. I take a really early third very often, and think you can time 2 Colossus to pop by placing Robitics after you place the Nexus. I do this fairly often if I have proper information from the Z. In terms of Storm however I think the overhead to get a storm sufficient army is larger, and can see why starting the Archives before the Nexus would make a lot of sense, especially since Templar aren't really mineral heavy making it easier to get additional gates and probes for the additional base.
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i've been using this build quite often recently in my PvZs and have found that 1 void ray doesnt automatically protect you from a roach speed mass timing around 9-10min~ however in the games where this has happened i have simply lost my 3rd then had a tech advantage that i used to crush his army immediately after losing my 3rd where i lose very few probes and a nexus and end up with a tech and army advantage (mainly due to blink/ff micro though so the Z can come out very ahead w/the attack) and the zerg doesnt have optimal drone saturation yet, granted i have yet to have a zerg attempt to do this by attacking the natural/main and going for my tech as well as econ as they all just go for the 3rd first losing the 3rd nexus is not game over though due to the simultaneous tech that you get and the fact that the zerg delays his tech somewhat to get all of those roaches out to attack with before he hits ~60-70 drones rather than 80-90 that the Z usually wants (in my experience)
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I'm a zerg player and I really enjoyed this type of analysis
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I'm not saying that you always have to get colossi/storm before a third. You can take a third with gateway units and defend with just a big army, but if you want to do cutesy small compositions with greedy econ and tech, you need to make sure that you have the right composition at the right timing.
3-base hydra pushes on moderate rush distances start coming into play around 11:30 or so, and if your composition is 1 void, 5 zealots, and 5 sentries when the push hits, you're shit out of luck. But if you have 1 void, 5 zealots, 5 sentries and 1 colossus without range, you're probably okay.
Of course, the rush distance in the Brown vs Losira game made 3-base hydra pushes a non-issue, so it was fine to take the third before getting AoE tech. Speed roaches would be the bigger concern.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 14 2012 01:58 kcdc wrote:
Monk, I think you're still over-stating what 1 VR can do for you. I've played a lot using voids to defend a third, and 1 void simply doesn't give you enough DPS to defend a third against roach-ling. Also, if Z gets roach speed, you can't kill roaches as they cross the map.
P isn't pressuring Z at all, so Z should have roach speed by 10 or 11 minutes. And an early speed roach timing against this build would kill the 3rd 100% of the time.
From what I can tell from the VOD, at 11:30, Z has roach speed finishing while P has an army of about 5 zealots, 5 sentries, a void ray and a phoenix. It happened to work out for Brown because Losira went for 90 drones and hive tech before thinking about aggression, but if Losira had committed to killing Brown's third when he scouted it at 9:50, he could have attacked off of 60 drones with probably 25-30 speed roaches by 12 min. Brown doesn't have his first colossus until 12:20, and it couldn't be at the third until later than that.
I'm a believer in this style of build. My stalkerless PvZ guide works on a similar theory that VRs make it easier to take a third (that build gets storm, but I've also played it a lot with colossi), but the practice of actually defending the third is more difficult than just saying roaches can't punish you because they don't shoot up. You need multiple void rays, and on a normal sized map where hydras can actually attack, you need to start robo support bay or templar archives before taking your third.
The whole point #2 hinged around large maps, so I won't touch on small/medium maps. Imo 1 voidray positioned correctly on Daybreak plus 2 cannons and a small force of gateway units can hold off any number of roaches before the colossi. At 12:00, when you say Losira can have 25-30 roaches at Brown's 3rd, Brown has 6 zealots, 2 stalkers, and 6 sentries. He also has 400/500 resources and 2 free warpins that he didn't use. In addition, Brown scouted mass lings and a infestation pit already, so he should be minimalistic with defense. I dare say that Brown could have gotten up to 5 more units if he really wanted to/needed at 12:00. That, in combination with an incoming colossi, cannons, and a voidray seems enough to me. Who knows; I could be wrong since I never tested it.
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Just another reason to not take it to the end game, crush em early 
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I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 05 2012 06:45 sofakng wrote:
I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push.
First of all, read the disclaimer at the top of my OP. This is not meant to be a guide about his build at all. I'm not even particularly advocating his build. There are certain things you have to do vs roach hydra play or muta play that you don't have to do versus infestor ling play that Losira did. So if you follow the build order exactly, of course you'll die. You have to play this build at a high level more than once before you judge it. Also, who goes double robo immortal into 3 base into templar? -_-.
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On February 05 2012 06:45 sofakng wrote:
I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push.
Hahaha "I played this once and I lost so it doesn't work." As Gormonk said, this isn't an exact build order and was meant more for discussion of concepts to take into consideration when playing against zerg on certain maps.
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On February 05 2012 09:03 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 06:45 sofakng wrote:
I tried this on ladder and just cant really get behind it. the super fast third allows zerg to take a fast 4th and easily crush you midgame with a roach hydra corrupter push. It was my first time playing it and I probably made some mistakes but I cant help but feel this is super risky. A muta switch as well would most likely kill you with such a late twilight. The macro pvz with less gates blink stalkers and double immortal production into templar after taking a faste third with blink seems so much better. After you force several sets of lings as well with zealot stalker or zealot x2 and stalker push. Hahaha "I played this once and I lost so it doesn't work." As Gormonk said, this isn't an exact build order and was meant more for discussion of concepts to take into consideration when playing against zerg on certain maps.
I didn't say it didnt work I said I did not like the style. The double robo comes as you take your third a bit after or if you ever have a surplus of money. It just seems super weak to a midgame push with roach and hydra or mutlpronged harass or muta. I didnt follow the build exactly and teched faster to collosus to suit the fast hydra push and shorter rush distance but it just doesnt seem viable to me. Mock me if you want but I really wanna this build stand up to a lot of different builds before any real conclusions are drawn from it. Bug Brown for a replay pack. :p
Edit: and to clarify I don't really know bo's except for pvp and wing most things. Is it good? Probably not. Does it make me ideal for testing this? Again probably no but I've gotten far enough on mechanics and decisions making that I feel like I can pick up builds pretty fast and execute them well.
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EPT
