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On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc. 
I did a unit test also with the same units and they killed the mothership just fine, once with 0 upgrades once with maxed. Were your corruptors bunched up? Did you give the toss superior upgrades?
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United States8477 Posts
On December 11 2011 21:34 Nyast wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think it's extremely relevant to this discussion to plug in the following game: Haypro vs WhiteRa. Part 1: Part 2: The main difference here is that WR doesn't go voidrays to take a fast third, but uses a lot of sentries for defense instead. The timing is really early ( 7'20 ) for a third; no Zerg that has gone for a fast third will have a lot of units at this time. I just love it. IMO it's even better than Brown's build. He then goes prism harass and continues to macro like a god. The rest of the game looks like a ripoff of Browns vs Losira, with the Zerg turtling hard, the Protoss going for templars, DTs harass, and MS+carriers to handle the brood lords at the end. That's the future of PvZ !
Yea, it's a very similar game showing a lot of the same concepts. Good find. However, I wouldn't call white-ra's build definitively better than brown's build. Both definitely have their individual strengths and weaknesses, but as I've been saying throughout this whole thread, one build or style is seldom just flat out better than another.
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On December 11 2011 18:53 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:43 zVooky wrote:On December 11 2011 01:39 NrGmonk wrote:On December 11 2011 01:34 zVooky wrote:
As soon as zergs get frustrated losing to something like this, they'll just 2 base all in and the game will never get there. Enough roaches with burrow, speed and burrow move and the game is over. Zergs will pretty much always be on 3 base versus a forge fe. I never go 3 base against a FFE. Everyone thinks I'm dumb but I saturate my bases faster and start producing units WAY before the protoss. Dropping about 12 roaches and 30 lings in their main at around the 9:30-10 min mark and have a nydus behind it to help reinforce the attack and it NEVER gets held. Not sure why more zergs don't do this or maybe I'm just playing the most god awful protosses. Pretty much any build can hold this if they power units. It's just an unsensical time to attack, which is probably why you can catch tosses offguard with it.
Most protoss that FFE dont get the scouting information they need so they go, Oh i took a 2nd fast theyll take a 3rd fast and play it that way. Theyll assume they have more time to tech or they throw up a bunch of cannons at the front to stop my push if they see units. I drop the main and clean that up then hit from both the front and whats left at the top and its an easy win. The protoss will never have enough to stop this, unless the zerg misses some injects or the protoss continously kills the nydus and has incredible micro to clean up the drop and not lose all his units. It always ends up with the protoss BARELY holding the first drop as he pulls probes and the reinforcements are just to much.
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You'r posts are amazing <33
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Carriers you kidding me? Carriers are Scouts of sc2. Its an insult. He had 1 Carrier that didnt do anything. Carrier is option if you need AA, and you have LOTS of time LOTS (very LOTS) of Money LOTS of supply. But when you are going to have 5+ minutes of downtime lategame PvZ? No time.
Otherwise I tottaly agree. Stargate is still great and all Z can really produce at to shut down is Roaches and Lings. Guess what ? Roach is killed by Vray (even 1 ) and Lings get demolished by Zealots +1. Great great strategy!!!!
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United States8477 Posts
On December 16 2011 17:25 Corsica wrote:
Carriers you kidding me? Carriers are Scouts of sc2. Its an insult. He had 1 Carrier that didnt do anything. Carrier is option if you need AA, and you have LOTS of time LOTS (very LOTS) of Money LOTS of supply. But when you are going to have 5+ minutes of downtime lategame PvZ? No time.
Otherwise I tottaly agree. Stargate is still great and all Z can really produce at to shut down is Roaches and Lings. Guess what ? Roach is killed by Vray (even 1 ) and Lings get demolished by Zealots +1. Great great strategy!!!!
If you read carefully both my initial post and the resulting discussion, you'll see that I only recommend carriers once you've got everything else you want, can max easily, and have lots of money. It's just that they are part of the ultimate late game PvZ army.
Also, yes it might be a great strategy but that wasn't the point of this post as I noted in the disclaimer in the very beginning of my post.
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We basically agree ^_^
But I think building carriers even late game its like buying an expensive laptop like macbook pro (2000$) and then buying useless stuff in apple store like pens, covers, mices (You can get cheaper/better result) with other stuff 
Hope my analogy makes sense :D
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On December 11 2011 21:46 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc. I did a unit test also with the same units and they killed the mothership just fine, once with 0 upgrades once with maxed. Were your corruptors bunched up? Did you give the toss superior upgrades?
Upgrades were 0-0 for both sides. Yes my corruptors were slightly clumped. Let's keep it real, gentlemen, and think about a real game situation. I dont see myself having control group
1) for lings to deflect drops/harass or run by
2) broodlords
3) corru
4) corru
5) corru
6) infestors
7+) hatches and queens
If u dont have 3 control groups for ur corru, they're going to clump. Else u have to prepare a big deal before the engagement and can never use ur control group for corru even once or they're going to clump. The op might speak about splitting corru while attacking etc., I think it's simply BS because he doesnt want to plainly admit vortex is op so he would try to talk about how zerg should micro far better than the toss amoving, how Zerg should throw away 5K ressources to kill the mother ship taking extreme risk and forcing a vortex that will not even happen since, as he said himself, there is no point vortexing (it will not be very effective, corru can nearly get out of range of the archons in time). And I didnt even use half the units a Maxed toss would have in my unit test map test. So I think i'm not exagerating while i'm saying that except if toss do something realy wrong it would take 20+ corru to take out the mothership if not 30+. 20 corru: 3K minerals 2K gas lol. And LOLOLOLOL when the op is saying that ressources dont matter in late game :D
English is not my mother language and I dont know how to say it, but we have a word for it in french: mauvaise foi! If we take that seriously, that means the advantage Z have with their macro ability should disapear since a maxed Z army ask far more ressources than a Toss army. If u max on broods/infestors/corru u're at an army value of an easy 8k minerals and a ton of gas (not sure of the numnber here, but far more than toss anyway), while a maxed toss army of motherhip colo stalker void will be at something like 6k minerals (and not that much gas compared to the Z).
My opinion (cant prove it by any facts) is that the op refuses to admit how far too good archon toilet is, how imbalanced and how clearly it is an exploit by talking about such non realistic things as throw away so much corru in a non sens kamikaze mission. Notice he didnt answer to what i said about doing the test with far less units than a protoss army could have.
The pov of the op, to summarize and slightly caricaturize it, is something like : You Z are screwed in the late game while Brown build allow toss to be safely going into late game. But cmon, take it easy!!
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Northern Ireland27251 Posts
It's an exploit but I don't see how the toilet is imbalanced. Zerg lategame compositions with BL and infestors are stupidly powerful and easier to control than their Protoss counterparts.
I'll trade you the mothership if you take away collision on broodlings, make them similar to mineralwalking workers
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Actually Day9 seems to have break it down for us.
What u actually do to avoid the death of your broodlords is that u throw as much infested terrans eggs as possible into the side of the vortex that is at the opposite of the protoss army The infested terrans will push the archons afar from the broodlords, and if u spam ur broodlords group control and tell them to move, they should not die. I did it on unit test map, using 5 archons fully upgraded. My broodlords escaped with 2/3 of their life, which is more than needed. What is pretty cool with this technique from the Z point of view is that there seems to be not much things the protoss can do to avoid it. Targetting broodlords with archons doesnt seem to change anything.
Could it be the end of archons toilet?
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On December 17 2011 10:55 Natalya wrote:
Actually Day9 seems to have break it down for us.
What u actually do to avoid the death of your broodlords is that u throw as much infested terrans eggs as possible into the side of the vortex that is at the opposite of the protoss army The infested terrans will push the archons afar from the broodlords, and if u spam ur broodlords group control and tell them to move, they should not die. I did it on unit test map, using 5 archons fully upgraded. My broodlords escaped with 2/3 of their life, which is more than needed. What is pretty cool with this technique from the Z point of view is that there seems to be not much things the protoss can do to avoid it. Targetting broodlords with archons doesnt seem to change anything.
Could it be the end of archons toilet?
This is still extremely situational, and is also assuming your infestors don't die in that time. You can easily drop a vortex and blink into the infestors to try to kill off as many as you can.
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On December 17 2011 10:55 Natalya wrote:
Actually Day9 seems to have break it down for us.
What u actually do to avoid the death of your broodlords is that u throw as much infested terrans eggs as possible into the side of the vortex that is at the opposite of the protoss army The infested terrans will push the archons afar from the broodlords, and if u spam ur broodlords group control and tell them to move, they should not die. I did it on unit test map, using 5 archons fully upgraded. My broodlords escaped with 2/3 of their life, which is more than needed. What is pretty cool with this technique from the Z point of view is that there seems to be not much things the protoss can do to avoid it. Targetting broodlords with archons doesnt seem to change anything.
Could it be the end of archons toilet?
Skip to 5:15 for test.
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United States8477 Posts
On December 17 2011 06:49 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 21:46 happyness wrote:On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc. I did a unit test also with the same units and they killed the mothership just fine, once with 0 upgrades once with maxed. Were your corruptors bunched up? Did you give the toss superior upgrades? Upgrades were 0-0 for both sides. Yes my corruptors were slightly clumped. Let's keep it real, gentlemen, and think about a real game situation. I dont see myself having control group 1) for lings to deflect drops/harass or run by 2) broodlords 3) corru 4) corru 5) corru 6) infestors 7+) hatches and queens If u dont have 3 control groups for ur corru, they're going to clump. Else u have to prepare a big deal before the engagement and can never use ur control group for corru even once or they're going to clump. The op might speak about splitting corru while attacking etc., I think it's simply BS because he doesnt want to plainly admit vortex is op so he would try to talk about how zerg should micro far better than the toss amoving, how Zerg should throw away 5K ressources to kill the mother ship taking extreme risk and forcing a vortex that will not even happen since, as he said himself, there is no point vortexing (it will not be very effective, corru can nearly get out of range of the archons in time). And I didnt even use half the units a Maxed toss would have in my unit test map test. So I think i'm not exagerating while i'm saying that except if toss do something realy wrong it would take 20+ corru to take out the mothership if not 30+. 20 corru: 3K minerals 2K gas lol. And LOLOLOLOL when the op is saying that ressources dont matter in late game :D English is not my mother language and I dont know how to say it, but we have a word for it in french: mauvaise foi! If we take that seriously, that means the advantage Z have with their macro ability should disapear since a maxed Z army ask far more ressources than a Toss army. If u max on broods/infestors/corru u're at an army value of an easy 8k minerals and a ton of gas (not sure of the numnber here, but far more than toss anyway), while a maxed toss army of motherhip colo stalker void will be at something like 6k minerals (and not that much gas compared to the Z). My opinion (cant prove it by any facts) is that the op refuses to admit how far too good archon toilet is, how imbalanced and how clearly it is an exploit by talking about such non realistic things as throw away so much corru in a non sens kamikaze mission. Notice he didnt answer to what i said about doing the test with far less units than a protoss army could have. The pov of the op, to summarize and slightly caricaturize it, is something like : You Z are screwed in the late game while Brown build allow toss to be safely going into late game. But cmon, take it easy!!
Don't know what you want me to say. I do think archon toilet is a bit silly in that one spell can decide the game. However, Zerg does have options versus mothership archon toilet. For example, in this game, if Losira had enough overseers and didn't throw his somewhat decently split broodlords into the vortex, he could have had a fighting chance.
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I wanted to throw in a game I saw on stream between Nestea and HongUn, mainly because this was a macro style game (third taken at almost exactly 10 minute mark for protoss) while Nestea was going Mutas. I do believe this applies a lot of the same concepts that this thread is talking about though geared more towards anti-muta play.
http://drop.sc/75179
Correct me if I'm wrong as I openly acknowledge my knowledge of the game isn't as good as others here.
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On December 18 2011 07:37 wklbishop wrote:I wanted to throw in a game I saw on stream between Nestea and HongUn, mainly because this was a macro style game (third taken at almost exactly 10 minute mark for protoss) while Nestea was going Mutas. I do believe this applies a lot of the same concepts that this thread is talking about though geared more towards anti-muta play. http://drop.sc/75179Correct me if I'm wrong as I openly acknowledge my knowledge of the game isn't as good as others here.
Hm how did you find that replay? And how do you know it's HongUn?
The build the Protoss used in that game is pretty much the FFE into 7-Gate +2 Blink Stalker build that is so popular except it doesn't get the 6th and 7th Gate to get a Nexus up @ 10 mins. It's completely different from how Brown secured his 3rd vs Losira. Which one is better however I have no clue.
Actually is that why you thought it was HongUn since the 7-Gate Blink Stalker build is the only PvZ build he seems to know? Haha
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On December 18 2011 08:48 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 07:37 wklbishop wrote:I wanted to throw in a game I saw on stream between Nestea and HongUn, mainly because this was a macro style game (third taken at almost exactly 10 minute mark for protoss) while Nestea was going Mutas. I do believe this applies a lot of the same concepts that this thread is talking about though geared more towards anti-muta play. http://drop.sc/75179Correct me if I'm wrong as I openly acknowledge my knowledge of the game isn't as good as others here. Hm how did you find that replay? And how do you know it's HongUn? The build the Protoss used in that game is pretty much the FFE into 7-Gate +2 Blink Stalker build that is so popular except it doesn't get the 6th and 7th Gate to get a Nexus up @ 10 mins. It's completely different from how Brown secured his 3rd vs Losira. Which one is better however I have no clue. Actually is that why you thought it was HongUn since the 7-Gate Blink Stalker build is the only PvZ build he seems to know? Haha
I watched it on HongUn's stream because he is my favorite player and I always believed he would make his funky style work one day and rise to the top again though that's might just be me being a fanboy....
Not sure if you can still call it the FFE into 7 Gate +2 Blink though if he doesn't get the 6th or 7th gate and that amount of gates really make the difference between all-inning or just expanding which is a big difference, but what do I know. LOL. xD Once again, correct me if I'm wrong because I fear I might be biased here... plus, as you would probably understand, watching it live and on stream feels a lot different with the amount of excitement generated that I might end up overhyping this game.
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On December 18 2011 10:34 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 08:48 Skyro wrote:On December 18 2011 07:37 wklbishop wrote:I wanted to throw in a game I saw on stream between Nestea and HongUn, mainly because this was a macro style game (third taken at almost exactly 10 minute mark for protoss) while Nestea was going Mutas. I do believe this applies a lot of the same concepts that this thread is talking about though geared more towards anti-muta play. http://drop.sc/75179Correct me if I'm wrong as I openly acknowledge my knowledge of the game isn't as good as others here. Hm how did you find that replay? And how do you know it's HongUn? The build the Protoss used in that game is pretty much the FFE into 7-Gate +2 Blink Stalker build that is so popular except it doesn't get the 6th and 7th Gate to get a Nexus up @ 10 mins. It's completely different from how Brown secured his 3rd vs Losira. Which one is better however I have no clue. Actually is that why you thought it was HongUn since the 7-Gate Blink Stalker build is the only PvZ build he seems to know? Haha I watched it on HongUn's stream because he is my favorite player and I always believed he would make his funky style work one day and rise to the top again though that's might just be me being a fanboy.... Not sure if you can still call it the FFE into 7 Gate +2 Blink though if he doesn't get the 6th or 7th gate and that amount of gates really make the difference between all-inning or just expanding which is a big difference, but what do I know. LOL. xD Once again, correct me if I'm wrong because I fear I might be biased here... plus, as you would probably understand, watching it live and on stream feels a lot different with the amount of excitement generated that I might end up overhyping this game.
I called it that because everything pretty much went down at roughly the standard 7-Gate Blink Stalker timings. Whether this is an actual build HongUn uses to get a fast 3rd or just something he did on the fly after scouting something in particular I do not know. I will say that it is pretty interesting because with a 7-Gate Blink Stalker build you throw down your last couple of Gates and cut Probes right around the same time, so essentially you can go 8-9 mins into the game before you have to commit one way or the other.
Also I don't necessarily consider 7-Gate Blink Stalker all-in. You need to do damage with the build yes, but you don't have to outright kill the Zerg with it. If you can take out their 3rd for example you can then fall back and expand and the game more or less "resets" so to speak. A 1/1/1 on the other hand is what I would consider an all-in, because if your all-in fails your only option is to all-in again.
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On December 17 2011 06:49 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 21:46 happyness wrote:On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc. I did a unit test also with the same units and they killed the mothership just fine, once with 0 upgrades once with maxed. Were your corruptors bunched up? Did you give the toss superior upgrades? Upgrades were 0-0 for both sides. Yes my corruptors were slightly clumped. Let's keep it real, gentlemen, and think about a real game situation. I dont see myself having control group
I have done the test many times and my corruptors are somewhat clumped too. Corruptors win for me.......
Maybe you miscounted?
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On December 18 2011 11:05 happyness wrote:
I have done the test many times and my corruptors are somewhat clumped too. Corruptors win for me.......
Maybe you miscounted?
I said the mothership had less than 100hp remaining. Could be that my corruption came just after the first hit of the corruptors, could be that when u were running the test the mothership was in front of the army, knowing that I placed it in the back of the army. 100 hp is not that much and i took it as a reference. What i meant is that with 3 archons and 24 stalkers, 12 corru more or less kill the mothership.
On December 18 2011 07:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 06:49 Natalya wrote:On December 11 2011 21:46 happyness wrote:On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc. I did a unit test also with the same units and they killed the mothership just fine, once with 0 upgrades once with maxed. Were your corruptors bunched up? Did you give the toss superior upgrades? Upgrades were 0-0 for both sides. Yes my corruptors were slightly clumped. Let's keep it real, gentlemen, and think about a real game situation. I dont see myself having control group 1) for lings to deflect drops/harass or run by 2) broodlords 3) corru 4) corru 5) corru 6) infestors 7+) hatches and queens If u dont have 3 control groups for ur corru, they're going to clump. Else u have to prepare a big deal before the engagement and can never use ur control group for corru even once or they're going to clump. The op might speak about splitting corru while attacking etc., I think it's simply BS because he doesnt want to plainly admit vortex is op so he would try to talk about how zerg should micro far better than the toss amoving, how Zerg should throw away 5K ressources to kill the mother ship taking extreme risk and forcing a vortex that will not even happen since, as he said himself, there is no point vortexing (it will not be very effective, corru can nearly get out of range of the archons in time). And I didnt even use half the units a Maxed toss would have in my unit test map test. So I think i'm not exagerating while i'm saying that except if toss do something realy wrong it would take 20+ corru to take out the mothership if not 30+. 20 corru: 3K minerals 2K gas lol. And LOLOLOLOL when the op is saying that ressources dont matter in late game :D English is not my mother language and I dont know how to say it, but we have a word for it in french: mauvaise foi! If we take that seriously, that means the advantage Z have with their macro ability should disapear since a maxed Z army ask far more ressources than a Toss army. If u max on broods/infestors/corru u're at an army value of an easy 8k minerals and a ton of gas (not sure of the numnber here, but far more than toss anyway), while a maxed toss army of motherhip colo stalker void will be at something like 6k minerals (and not that much gas compared to the Z). My opinion (cant prove it by any facts) is that the op refuses to admit how far too good archon toilet is, how imbalanced and how clearly it is an exploit by talking about such non realistic things as throw away so much corru in a non sens kamikaze mission. Notice he didnt answer to what i said about doing the test with far less units than a protoss army could have. The pov of the op, to summarize and slightly caricaturize it, is something like : You Z are screwed in the late game while Brown build allow toss to be safely going into late game. But cmon, take it easy!! Don't know what you want me to say. I do think archon toilet is a bit silly in that one spell can decide the game. However, Zerg does have options versus mothership archon toilet. For example, in this game, if Losira had enough overseers and didn't throw his somewhat decently split broodlords into the vortex, he could have had a fighting chance.
Ofcourse i agree there were obvious mistakes on Losira's part. I understand it that you are trying to find ways for the Zerg to kill the mothership, even if the situation become a little absurd. I guess I shoudnt be mad at you, even if I'm not really mad, but it's kinda irritating to read most of your posts where you try to adress the problem as if there were no balance problems. Well, i guess whining about balance has never help anyone and my mindset will always be to focus myself on the task of finding solution rather than whining. I think it is your mindset as well, as you are not a blizzard employee. Can I ask you what change would you make if you were a developper (I know it's maybe an impossible question lol)?
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I've been trying this and it works wonders against any zerg who is forced into hydras. To ensure this, I try to get 2 void rays out and surprise him, which often will force hydras. The problem i foresee with getting your 3rd at about 10 minutes though and going stargate is.. what if he just turtles with spores and pops a ton of mutas? How will you defend your 3rd from ling run bys, your main from mutas, etc.
Also what do you think about the 2 void rays instead of one, as 1 never really does damage while 2 void rays with some phoenix after can kill tons of queens, spawning pools etc.. It is 250/150 more but after I do damage / force hydras you can just pull them back and defend your 3rd with them. 2>1 for defending against roach aggression.
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EPT
