EPT[D] Lessons learned from Brown vs Losira - Page 12
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Huntz
164 Posts
On December 10 2011 16:07 IcemanAsi wrote: So what is preventing the protoss from vortexing the ~16 corruptors I'll need to two shot a mothership ( 3/3/3 mothership versus 2/0 corruptors with corrupt ) and then throwing archons in, killing all the corruptors at zero cost - then engaging a 30 defecint zerg army. Or do you think that a 200 protoss army can't beat a 170 broodlordf/infestor zerg army? Well first off-- why in the world would protoss have 3/3 air upgrades and 3 shields while the zerg has only +2 air ups? Regardless, corruptors have enough health to spread and not ALL die instantly (unlike broodlords), so you can save a handful. But in that case you'd want to send in like 10 from 2 directions and force 2 vortexes or kill the mothership. From that point if the Protoss doesn't have carriers/vortex you can remax on corruptors as you morph any surviving corruptors (you can probably get around 8 out alive with low health) into broodlords (healing them). Even with a supply deficit infestor/bl/corruptor crushes non-carrier compositions. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:22 Huntz wrote: Well first off-- why in the world would protoss have 3/3 air upgrades and 3 shields while the zerg has only +2 air ups? Regardless, corruptors have enough health to spread and not ALL die instantly (unlike broodlords), so you can save a handful. But in that case you'd want to send in like 10 from 2 directions and force 2 vortexes or kill the mothership. From that point if the Protoss doesn't have carriers/vortex you can remax on corruptors as you morph any surviving corruptors (you can probably get around 8 out alive with low health) into broodlords (healing them). Even with a supply deficit infestor/bl/corruptor crushes non-carrier compositions. Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor vs Protoss nonAir compositions is a battle of control and positioning. Colossi and HT can keep the complete zerg groundforce and Infestors out of the battle until the broodlords have done enough damage to the Protoss ball. But that again means that the Broodlords have to fight very exposed and have to be handled extremly carefully. (spread broodlords can be sniped by stalkers, nonspread broodlords fall like flies to storms) It is an extreme battle of patience for both players, as there are a lot of synergies between the units of each composition that force your army to ball up, but the balled army gets decimated by the opponents splash (colossi & HT vs Infestors). The mothership is a great addition for the Protoss Army in that scenario, Carries might be OK, but I'm not exactly sure they are really worth it or even better than some well spread void rays. (if anything, like the OP wrote they are the last piece in the puzzle) For the zerg there are also some possibilities to improve his composition. Hydras>Roaches in high supply (at least as some roaches). A small number of ultras (~2) can help immensly, as they can tank the damage for your broodlords and infestors, which are the units you want to end up on after the battle. (as you might note, I really love to play those battles, as they are one of the few highlights in PvZ, in which I don't feel like the game was won by some stupid allin, or as my protoss opponents like to call them "necessary timing pushes", but rather by a very chesslike battle of control that can take 1-2mins if fought the right way by both players - very patient, not panicking just because the opponents artillery has started to fire at your units) | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 10 2011 12:06 avilo wrote: This be a great thread, don't wanna off-topic it too much but i can't help but say everytime i read the title I think, "Lessons learned from Brown vs Board of education." lol.  Separate but not equal is not ok? plessy vs ferguson is wrong? | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 10 2011 19:14 Drowsy wrote: Yeah. A voidray somehow guaranteeing you a third base makes 0 sense. I think Brown got kinda lucky Losira just elected not to react aggressive to the third. If you look at Brown's build carefully, you'll notice how this makes sense. Each individual unit and timing is designed to stop any aggression in the early game. A heavy zealot/sentry composition is designed to stop mass ling attacks early game. The voidray/phenoix combination clears out scouting overlords and lings that might scout the main base or natural. The voidray is designed to stop any early game roach based attacks The voidray when parked at a good location can spot any incoming attacks. The phenoix is able to scout for tech from the zerg. Any extremely early robotics/robo bay stops any roach/hydra, ling hydra, or later mass roach attacks. For reference, the nexus goes down at 9:50 and the first colossi pops out at 12:25. Brown's unit at 12:25 include 1 voidray, 1 phoenix, 1 colossi, 2 observers, 6 sentries, 6 zealots, and 2 stalkers. Assuming Losira scouted Brown's expansion ASAP AND he had a hydra den up, it would take a full 2 minutes just to produce one round of hydras and walk them across the map. The map size helps a lot. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
I'm saying something like 3-4 ultras in the brood,infestor corruptor mix should do wonders... why zergs love to overmake broodlords? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:03 rpgalon wrote: I think the total lack of ultralisks in the zerg end-game is a mistake. I'm saying something like 3-4 ultras in the brood,infestor corruptor mix should do wonders... why zergs love to overmake broodlords? you can't overmake broodlords as long as your opponent has ground units and you want to win the game by a direct engagement... You can overmake the wrong support units for them (which means any unit in the zerg arsenal that is not a broodlord) The thing with ultralisks is that you usually don't have any spare supply for them with roaches in the composition once you already hit broodlords and you don't have any gas for them before. Still I don't disagree, I think very small amounts of ultras (4might already be too much = 24supply, ultras are also extremly supplyheavy) are good to tank damage for everything else. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:03 rpgalon wrote: I think the total lack of ultralisks in the zerg end-game is a mistake. I'm saying something like 3-4 ultras in the brood,infestor corruptor mix should do wonders... why zergs love to overmake broodlords? Because there is little point in making ultras when the protoss has a ton of gates up and running. A round of zealot warpins would make the exchage favor the protoss when fighting ultralisks. Also archons are amazing. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:46 NrGmonk wrote: Separate but not equal is not ok? plessy vs ferguson is wrong? Zergs don't have this many good guides. Racist. | ||
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zVooky
United States151 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:34 zVooky wrote: As soon as zergs get frustrated losing to something like this, they'll just 2 base all in and the game will never get there. Enough roaches with burrow, speed and burrow move and the game is over. Zergs will pretty much always be on 3 base versus a forge fe. | ||
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:03 rpgalon wrote: I think the total lack of ultralisks in the zerg end-game is a mistake. I'm saying something like 3-4 ultras in the brood,infestor corruptor mix should do wonders... why zergs love to overmake broodlords? Because 4x6 supply = 24 supply. If you ever want to lose, just make Ultralisks. They are pretty terrible against everything. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:39 Lebzetu wrote: Because 4x6 supply = 24 supply. If you ever want to lose, just make Ultralisks. They are pretty terrible against everything. Yea, this. Also, why would you want 4 ultras when you can have 6 more broodlords? | ||
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zVooky
United States151 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:39 NrGmonk wrote: Zergs will pretty much always be on 3 base versus a forge fe. I never go 3 base against a FFE. Everyone thinks I'm dumb but I saturate my bases faster and start producing units WAY before the protoss. Dropping about 12 roaches and 30 lings in their main at around the 9:30-10 min mark and have a nydus behind it to help reinforce the attack and it NEVER gets held. Not sure why more zergs don't do this or maybe I'm just playing the most god awful protosses. | ||
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:43 NrGmonk wrote: Yea, this. Also, why would you want 4 ultras when you can have 6 more broodlords? Exactly. The only purpose Ultralisks have is after you forced a lot of Vikings in ZvT. Even then, your overlords are defenseless  Ultra/Bane is pretty good ZvT. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 10 2011 16:07 IcemanAsi wrote: So what is preventing the protoss from vortexing the ~16 corruptors I'll need to two shot a mothership ( 3/3/3 mothership versus 2/0 corruptors with corrupt ) and then throwing archons in, killing all the corruptors at zero cost - then engaging a 30 defecint zerg army. Or do you think that a 200 protoss army can't beat a 170 broodlordf/infestor zerg army? The point is that you force P to spend his vortexes before the big fight so that your army wins when you remax and fight a minute later. Also, a 170 supply broodlord/infestor army will trade decently against a 200 supply Protoss army if P doesn't have a vortex. It's much more favorable to Z than a 200 vs 200 fight with vortexes where Z will drop 130 supply and P will drop 20. You should also know that archon toilets don't kill corruptors. They spread quickly enough to not take too mcuh archon splash and if you move click them right away, the 1.5 second invulnerability period allows them to get away with just a few dying. Lastly, I build a mothership in probably about a third of my PvZ's, and I don't think I've ever had a 3/3/3 mothership. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:43 zVooky wrote: I never go 3 base against a FFE. Everyone thinks I'm dumb but I saturate my bases faster and start producing units WAY before the protoss. Dropping about 12 roaches and 30 lings in their main at around the 9:30-10 min mark and have a nydus behind it to help reinforce the attack and it NEVER gets held. Not sure why more zergs don't do this or maybe I'm just playing the most god awful protosses. Pretty much any build can hold this if they power units. It's just an unsensical time to attack, which is probably why you can catch tosses offguard with it. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On December 11 2011 02:18 kcdc wrote: The point is that you force P to spend his vortexes before the big fight so that your army wins when you remax and fight a minute later. Also, a 170 supply broodlord/infestor army will trade decently against a 200 supply Protoss army if P doesn't have a vortex. It's much more favorable to Z than a 200 vs 200 fight with vortexes where Z will drop 130 supply and P will drop 20. You should also know that archon toilets don't kill corruptors. They spread quickly enough to not take too mcuh archon splash and if you move click them right away, the 1.5 second invulnerability period allows them to get away with just a few dying. Lastly, I build a mothership in probably about a third of my PvZ's, and I don't think I've ever had a 3/3/3 mothership. Aghaa, I really messed that comment up. Thanks for the serious reply anyway. What I meant was mothership with +3 shields upgrade. Now, I keep hearing how insanely powerful broodlord/infestor is against protoss but every replay I've seen has protoss on an economical disadvantage or army worth disadvantage when engaging with said army. It seems that protoss run into the same wall that a zerg player runs into when playing roach/hydra against protoss, there is a point where your opponents tech and army worth advantage means that his 200 supply are much better then your 200 supply, for zerg it's once protoss has 5+ colossus if he's going roach/hydra. Isn't the same applicable for a protoss going stalker/colossus against zerg? After all broodlord/infestor/corruptor is literally the most gas intensive per supply you can get as zerg, Can't protoss counter with 200 supply of carrier/archon/HT? I don't think zerg can trade cost effectively against that. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 11 2011 20:36 IcemanAsi wrote: Aghaa, I really messed that comment up. Thanks for the serious reply anyway. What I meant was mothership with +3 shields upgrade. Now, I keep hearing how insanely powerful broodlord/infestor is against protoss but every replay I've seen has protoss on an economical disadvantage or army worth disadvantage when engaging with said army. It seems that protoss run into the same wall that a zerg player runs into when playing roach/hydra against protoss, there is a point where your opponents tech and army worth advantage means that his 200 supply are much better then your 200 supply, for zerg it's once protoss has 5+ colossus if he's going roach/hydra. Isn't the same applicable for a protoss going stalker/colossus against zerg? After all broodlord/infestor/corruptor is literally the most gas intensive per supply you can get as zerg, Can't protoss counter with 200 supply of carrier/archon/HT? I don't think zerg can trade cost effectively against that. Gladly the game is designed in a way that at least it looks like zerg can. To the given example, corruptor > Carrier, Ultralisk > Archon+HT in terms of cost. And broodlord/infestor/corruptor should still be even with this, if controlled properly (spread broodlords/corruptors!). But I agree. All the Protoss "can't deal with Broodlord/Infestor" usually comes from a big economic disadvantage early on, that they only survive because they bunker with mass low tier (gateway units) + ground superiority units (colossus), while the zerg sets up for a mass hightier (Infestor+broodlord+corruptor) air composition. In the lategame supplies are even because of this, but the overall worth of the zerg composition (especially the sum of the implicated tech/upgrade costs) usually beats the Protoss costs. And I also agree with "it was the same with roach/hydra against collossus". Zergs went even economy low-mid tier universal composition against Protoss low-high tier antiground composition. Naturally Protoss had a good time back in those days. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Part 1: Part 2: The main difference here is that WR doesn't go voidrays to take a fast third, but uses a lot of sentries for defense instead. The timing is really early ( 7'20 ) for a third; no Zerg that has gone for a fast third will have a lot of units at this time. I just love it. IMO it's even better than Brown's build. He then goes prism harass and continues to macro like a god. The rest of the game looks like a ripoff of Browns vs Losira, with the Zerg turtling hard, the Protoss going for templars, DTs harass, and MS+carriers to handle the brood lords at the end. That's the future of PvZ ! | ||
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