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On December 10 2011 05:57 Lebzetu wrote:
I didn't say that infestor brood corruptor zergling should have no counter, I am just saying that vortex is abusing a bug in order to counter it. I personally would love to see protoss stand a chance in the late game but the fact they are abusing a bug in order to do that is flat out wrong.
Just as a question of the "ethics of utilizing bugs," if a Zerg were to drone-drill to destroy Protoss pylons, would you defame them and claim that drone-drill needs to be removed? Remember, drone-drill is a bug, similar to the Archon Toilet.
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On December 10 2011 06:13 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:57 Lebzetu wrote:
I didn't say that infestor brood corruptor zergling should have no counter, I am just saying that vortex is abusing a bug in order to counter it. I personally would love to see protoss stand a chance in the late game but the fact they are abusing a bug in order to do that is flat out wrong. A bug that the Zerg could probably help negate with better control. For starters running everything into the Vortex is a bad idea, and secondly LosirA's air units were all clumped up. Granted, units tend to clump, but that doesn't mean that there is no way for them to stay apart. Plus Vortex isn't even something that you can surprise your opponent with (for example in TvZ burrowed banelings cannot be microed against, it just comes down to whether or not you have detection). With Infestors, Ghosts, or Templar, their AoE spells that cast instantly all can be done in a "surprise manner," but there is no way to not know where a Mothership is: it's bulky, slow, and cloaks everything around it--which, in an odd sense--actually makes it spotable while it is outside of the vision of your units.
Do you know how slow brood lords are? They take forever to spread out and if you spread them out too much blink stalkers can just blink right under them, snipe them then gtfo. It's a lose-lose situation if you see a mothership, it seems. Granted, I once fungaled a mothership out of range of my brood lords but that is really hard to do.
Whether it surprises you or not, it is an instant cast spell that you never know when its coming. You have to spread out your brood lords a LOT, which, like i said, will get killed by blink stalkers if they spread out too much. It's simply not fair that Vortex is so incredibly strong when abused correctly.
Some say to spread out your corruptors which is an even worse idea, they just die to blink stalkers.
And before you say to fungal to prevent the stalkers from blinking, thats not possible because any smart protoss will keep their stalkers back and let their colossus prevent the infestor from coming forward too much.
On December 10 2011 06:15 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:57 Lebzetu wrote:
I didn't say that infestor brood corruptor zergling should have no counter, I am just saying that vortex is abusing a bug in order to counter it. I personally would love to see protoss stand a chance in the late game but the fact they are abusing a bug in order to do that is flat out wrong. Just as a question of the "ethics of utilizing bugs," if a Zerg were to drone-drill to destroy Protoss pylons, would you defame them and claim that drone-drill needs to be removed? Remember, drone-drill is a bug, similar to the Archon Toilet.
That is abusing a mechanic in the game as well. Why do you think depots are on MLG Maps? because thats cheap as hell, you can win the game without risking anything. Besides, I never go 15hatch and any zerg that does is a fool. (in zvp only)
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On December 10 2011 07:37 Lebzetu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 06:13 The Final Boss wrote:On December 10 2011 05:57 Lebzetu wrote:
I didn't say that infestor brood corruptor zergling should have no counter, I am just saying that vortex is abusing a bug in order to counter it. I personally would love to see protoss stand a chance in the late game but the fact they are abusing a bug in order to do that is flat out wrong. A bug that the Zerg could probably help negate with better control. For starters running everything into the Vortex is a bad idea, and secondly LosirA's air units were all clumped up. Granted, units tend to clump, but that doesn't mean that there is no way for them to stay apart. Plus Vortex isn't even something that you can surprise your opponent with (for example in TvZ burrowed banelings cannot be microed against, it just comes down to whether or not you have detection). With Infestors, Ghosts, or Templar, their AoE spells that cast instantly all can be done in a "surprise manner," but there is no way to not know where a Mothership is: it's bulky, slow, and cloaks everything around it--which, in an odd sense--actually makes it spotable while it is outside of the vision of your units. Do you know how slow brood lords are? They take forever to spread out and if you spread them out too much blink stalkers can just blink right under them, snipe them then gtfo. It's a lose-lose situation if you see a mothership, it seems. Granted, I once fungaled a mothership out of range of my brood lords but that is really hard to do. Whether it surprises you or not, it is an instant cast spell that you never know when its coming. You have to spread out your brood lords a LOT, which, like i said, will get killed by blink stalkers if they spread out too much. It's simply not fair that Vortex is so incredibly strong when abused correctly. Some say to spread out your corruptors which is an even worse idea, they just die to blink stalkers. And before you say to fungal to prevent the stalkers from blinking, thats not possible because any smart protoss will keep their stalkers back and let their colossus prevent the infestor from coming forward too much. Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 06:15 The Final Boss wrote:On December 10 2011 05:57 Lebzetu wrote:
I didn't say that infestor brood corruptor zergling should have no counter, I am just saying that vortex is abusing a bug in order to counter it. I personally would love to see protoss stand a chance in the late game but the fact they are abusing a bug in order to do that is flat out wrong. Just as a question of the "ethics of utilizing bugs," if a Zerg were to drone-drill to destroy Protoss pylons, would you defame them and claim that drone-drill needs to be removed? Remember, drone-drill is a bug, similar to the Archon Toilet. That is abusing a mechanic in the game as well. Why do you think depots are on MLG Maps? because thats cheap as hell, you can win the game without risking anything. Besides, I never go 15hatch and any zerg that does is a fool. (in zvp only)
The point is that you know its coming, and because of the nature of the Mothership in comparison to other casters with Instant AoE spells, its a lot easier to see coming. You can hide other casters in dropships, hide them on ledges, and other various ways of concealing them to your opponent. Broodlords are slow, and you certainly would have to use fungal in conjunction with good Brood/Corrupter management, but I think it could work.
That's a cute double-standard that you have there ^^ made me giggle that you honestly responded to that question in that way and basically discredited everything you've been saying by making yourself sound like a hypocrite.
And NesTea, LosirA, CoCa, and plenty of other top tier ZvPers all do Hatch first (not every game, but certainly a lot of games), so I guess they're all fools. Maybe you're some closet ZvP genius, but Hatch first is a necessary build especially with the rise in popularity of FFE builds. You should really think before posting, but thanks for the laughs! :D
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The point is that you know its coming, and because of the nature of the Mothership in comparison to other casters with Instant AoE spells, its a lot easier to see coming. You can hide other casters in dropships, hide them on ledges, and other various ways of concealing them to your opponent. Broodlords are slow, and you certainly would have to use fungal in conjunction with good Brood/Corrupter management, but I think it could work.
That's a cute double-standard that you have there ^^ made me giggle that you honestly responded to that question in that way and basically discredited everything you've been saying by making yourself sound like a hypocrite.
And NesTea, LosirA, CoCa, and plenty of other top tier ZvPers all do Hatch first (not every game, but certainly a lot of games), so I guess they're all fools. Maybe you're some closet ZvP genius, but Hatch first is a necessary build especially with the rise in popularity of FFE builds. You should really think before posting, but thanks for the laughs! :D
Yes, I realize the nature of the mothership makes it stick out from other units. I'm just saying the ways you are suggesting to avoid being vortexed are actually going to send you to your own doom anyway.
NesTea, LosirA, CoCa and "plenty of other top tier ZvPers" do hatch first because
A) Theres a depot at the bottom of the ramp
or
B) Hes not going FFE.
Go hatch first on shakuras, see what happens. That's all im saying.
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On December 10 2011 07:55 Lebzetu wrote:Show nested quote +
The point is that you know its coming, and because of the nature of the Mothership in comparison to other casters with Instant AoE spells, its a lot easier to see coming. You can hide other casters in dropships, hide them on ledges, and other various ways of concealing them to your opponent. Broodlords are slow, and you certainly would have to use fungal in conjunction with good Brood/Corrupter management, but I think it could work.
That's a cute double-standard that you have there ^^ made me giggle that you honestly responded to that question in that way and basically discredited everything you've been saying by making yourself sound like a hypocrite.
And NesTea, LosirA, CoCa, and plenty of other top tier ZvPers all do Hatch first (not every game, but certainly a lot of games), so I guess they're all fools. Maybe you're some closet ZvP genius, but Hatch first is a necessary build especially with the rise in popularity of FFE builds. You should really think before posting, but thanks for the laughs! :D
Yes, I realize the nature of the mothership makes it stick out from other units. I'm just saying the ways you are suggesting to avoid being vortexed are actually going to send you to your own doom anyway. NesTea, LosirA, CoCa and "plenty of other top tier ZvPers" do hatch first because A) Theres a depot at the bottom of the ramp or B) Hes not going FFE. Go hatch first on shakuras, see what happens. That's all im saying.
You can stop the standard cannon-at-the-ramp rush by just patrolling a drone at the bottom of the ramp. Yes, it will make your economy slightly less effective, but the return of getting a fairly safe expo up should make it worth it in my eyes. And almost every ZvP I watch in Korea begins with a FFE. Ps do it on every map, and frankly Zs are fairly accustomed to seeing it.
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Yeah, you need a drone patrolling the bottom of the ramp, the back of your mineral line and one to chase the probe.
Three drones are a big deal.
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Very good thread, I gotta say thats a kickass unit composition.
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Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army.
This is the easiest way to deal with a mothership, and it's a good reason that P can't rely on only mothership+archon as their end-game composition. Without vortexes, the melee-ranged army is garbage vs even smaller armies of infestor+broodlord. Here's some relevant quotes from rsvp's thread about his mothership replay pack:
The other thing is that mothership isn't actually a requirement for this deathball, although it helps immensely. Most of my earlier games focused on getting mothership + archons for an archon toilet, but then I realized that that is way too risky because of how easy it is to lose the entire game because you can't pull off the archon toilet (i.e. losing the mothership). My later games focused more so on building up the carrier fleet, and I found that to be much more safer. Carrier + colossus + HT/archon can deal with infestor/corruptor/BL by itself - carriers outrange everything, and if corruptors try to come in you can storm/use archons. This is another reason why carriers are preferable over void rays (range advantage) even though on their own void rays are better vs corruptors than carriers.
The question of storm vs archon - I've actually been leaning more towards storm recently. When I face good zergs who spread out their units and don't throw everything into vortex, then archons actually get killed by broodlords who are outside the vortex. Thus storm becomes much better for you to defend your carriers against corruptors.
Or in Huargh's mothership thread, rsvp commented:
Mothership is an excellent unit, but I'm beginning to realize that one of its strengths is that a lot of zerg players are just clueless in how to deal with it. For example, upon seeing vortex a lot of zerg players try to "save" their army by throwing everything into it. Well of course that's suicide for the zerg. But if the zerg just ignores what gets caught in the vortex, they can simply fight out the battle, kill some of your army, and then remax and kill your entire army now that you no longer have a vortex (or even mothership).
. . .
There is actually a lot of micro regarding the mothership/archon versus broodlord/infestor/corruptor 200/200 battle. With no micro on either side the protoss wins easy. But if the zerg spreads out his units and doesn't throw everything into the vortex, when archons come out they still have to deal with unvortexed broodlords/broodlings and infestors casting fungal. Not to mention that if the zerg immediately runs away the corruptors that get caught in the vortex, they will NOT all die even if you have 10 archons in there. They will only all die if the zerg is slow and doesn't move them immediately upon the vortex ending.
Huargh argues for a few pages that Z can't realistically micro against it, but having played the style quite a lot, I found that all Z has to do is weather 2 vortexes and P's army is useless unless he has a bunch of carriers. Supporting this position, the last comment in the thread is:
Is this build working for anyone anymore? I've been using it for a while but it barely seems to work as Zergs just play against it much better now.
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On December 10 2011 08:05 Lebzetu wrote:
Yeah, you need a drone patrolling the bottom of the ramp, the back of your mineral line and one to chase the probe.
Three drones are a big deal.
Chasing the probe and having one patrol behind the mineral lines aren't anything that GSL maps somehow exempt players from having to do while going hatch first, yet Zergs don't do it and do hatch first. You can go hatch first and not be a "fool," as you put it.
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Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army.
Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc.
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This be a great thread, don't wanna off-topic it too much but i can't help but say everytime i read the title I think, "Lessons learned from Brown vs Board of education." lol. 
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On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc.
Minerals/gas at that point in the game are a non-issue. Only supply and time matter. Try 13 corruptors and scoot-and-shoot micro away from the archons. Just make enough to kill the mothership and you'll be fine.
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Also in an engagement if you run a few lings with your corrupters, the Stalkers and Archons will auto-target the Lings first. Since units like Roaches or Zerglings have a higher priority, unless the Protoss is doing ridiculous target firing/micro, the corrupters will do better than they probably did in your artificial scenario. You shouldn't have only your corrupters engaging, sacrifice some lings, use corrupt, and pray that the Protoss you're facing isn't some godly, Korean level micro player.
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On December 10 2011 12:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 11:37 Natalya wrote:Lebzetu, try making 12 corruptors and A-moving them at the mothership while the rest of your army hangs back safely. Stalkers and even archons can't kill corruptors nearly in time to save the mothership, so the mothership will have to spend its vortexes. If the deathball is really strong with more archons, storms and carriers, use more corruptors and split them into groups so they can't be hit by 1 vortex. Then you retreat with whatever corruptors are left, and you attack with your full army. Kcdc i just tried this on unit test map. 12 corruptors attacking a mothership, with 24 stalkers and 3 archons (which is way less than a maxed toss army) under the mothership. What happened is that corruptors died before killing mothership (left with less than 100 hp)... U protoss guys seem no to realise that mothership has a decent amount of health, that 12 corru cost SO much more than a mother ship and that even if they killed it, Z better have some corru remaining to take care of colossus etc. Minerals/gas at that point in the game are a non-issue. Only supply and time matter. Try 13 corruptors and scoot-and-shoot micro away from the archons. Just make enough to kill the mothership and you'll be fine.
So what is preventing the protoss from vortexing the ~16 corruptors I'll need to two shot a mothership ( 3/3/3 mothership versus 2/0 corruptors with corrupt ) and then throwing archons in, killing all the corruptors at zero cost - then engaging a 30 defecint zerg army. Or do you think that a 200 protoss army can't beat a 170 broodlordf/infestor zerg army?
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cant believe so many zergs cry about archon toilet.. rofl its like the only counter to brood/infesto/(roach/hydra/ling) composition
w/o mothership i dont think its even possible to stop zergs maxed army, i even remember on some pro vod the guy said that its best to just base race and never engage broods because ull never win w/o archon toilet
i tried engaging zergs army with storm+vr+blink, and got destroyed while killing like only 10 of his supply, not only that but i was on 5bases and had like 20gates+4sg, so i remaxed almost instantly - went back to fight again - lost everything again in seconds while killing almost nothing
so yeah, IMO its only archon toilet, or kite like crazy
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I just realized motherships and carriers are the only way I ever win lategame pvz. I'm so screwed in hots TT
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broodlords are shooting moving forcefields called broodlings... and it is sad that "i hope my mothership coms in time and i can vortex all his broodlords" is the only strat against it.
or maybe yes... base race 
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On December 06 2011 02:06 reikai wrote:
I kind of disagree on the voidray into quick third point, if only because of Mondragon. If someone can find the link to that post/pic, you'll know what I'm talking about.
It basically said that if toss uses voids, you can hit a timing and simply make more roaches than that one stargate can even handle.
however, if the zerg plays the counter game like you said and only does the correct UNIT response, then the quick third works. Thoughts?
Yeah. A voidray somehow guaranteeing you a third base makes 0 sense. I think Brown got kinda lucky Losira just elected not to react aggressive to the third.
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On December 06 2011 02:06 reikai wrote:
I kind of disagree on the voidray into quick third point, if only because of Mondragon. If someone can find the link to that post/pic, you'll know what I'm talking about.
It basically said that if toss uses voids, you can hit a timing and simply make more roaches than that one stargate can even handle.
however, if the zerg plays the counter game like you said and only does the correct UNIT response, then the quick third works. Thoughts?
This makes perfect sense, you cant make enough voiderays to deal with as many roaches that the Zerg can make. I understand where you were coming with by saying that voides were a guarantee'd third, but the reality is most people playing wouldn't react the same way as a top tier Zerg player would. I feel like this is putting way to much trust into a possibility.
As for the rest of the post, I saw the game also and it was amazing, but I just don't know how realistic it is to actually try and go with this. I know that it seemed awesome but the reality is it is incredibly hard to get that unit composition. Also Losira had a maxed army for about 10 minutes before any major engagement happened. I feel like if losira just attacked Brown before he had the mothership and all that other stuff he definitely would have won. I'm not discrediting Brown from being a amazing player, That game was quite possibly the best game I have ever seen in the GSL, But I just feel like way too many things went perfectly for Brown. If anyone were to try to copy this game in any other PvZ I think they would just get rolled. If I am wrong and people have done it I would love to admit I am wrong and watch a replay of a game.
Also I am not saying that macro games vs Zerg is a bad idea. I think it is a awesome Idea to macro against Zergs if you can keep up with them, but if you cant you are just going to get roflstomped. I think it will take a little longer for some of the pros to really find a solid way to play macro/late games against Zerg and not have a ton of "luck" on their side. Like I have said I feel like Brown just got extremely lucky that losira didn't just go and kill him when he was maxed with 18 broods (I think thats the correct number). I could be wrong though! I would love it if I were.
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I want to agree that besides all the analysis of the OP, that the toilet really was a gamebreaker in this game so i would like to see more games like this to see how much the strategies by Brown really play out whichout such a critical bad engagement.
Losira knew the danger of losing his whole armee to the Archon toilet, so i dont know what he was thinking at that point.
Im not to say what he should have done but for instance even sacrifing a significant number of Corruptors to snipe the Mothership would seem better.
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EPT
