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A Guide on Early Game ZvZ: How to Stay Alive and Set Yourself Up for the Midgame
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R4KLN.jpg)
Introduction
Hello everyone and welcome to my ZvZ guide! My name is Mavvie, and I'm a mid-masters Zerg in NA. I don't ladder much at all, I mainly play in tournaments and practice games, so I personally feel that my points don't reflect my skill very accurately, just because of how small the sample size is. ZvZ is actually my worst matchup, but I always feel confident while playing it. It's definitely the hardest Zerg matchup, at least because there aren't any guides on it yet! I know that Ostojiy and Belial are working on ZvZ guides, and I have no doubt that they will both greatly outshine mine, but I figured I'll just provide my view and insight on the matchup 
Early game
These are the standard openers:
- Cheesy pool first (6-9 pool)+ Show Spoiler +
I'm not going to talk about these at all, as there's already multiple guides on the topic and it should be common knowledge. A simple search for "6 pool" should provide you with all the information you need on this.
- 10 pool + Show Spoiler +
This is an interesting build. It is a build order win against hatch first and early pools, but is significantly behind against every other build. Just match his ling count (scouting overlords!), take a fast gas if you haven't already, and expand ~16-17 after your queen + gas. You have a bigger economy and better production, so even if he expands when you do, don't fret! Try to check his gas timing; if yours is really far ahead then you can go for a speedling/bane bust. If it's about even then get defensive banelings and play standard (You ARE ahead in the drone count, so don't worry). His gas shouldn't be faster than yours, but if it somehow is then just play defensively. Get fast banelings, defend and saturate 2 bases. I recommend a double evo roach/infestor style off 2 bases, but it's not necessary. If he does a 10 pool drone all in (which you can EASILY see the lings leave his base), then get a spine of your own and produce queen + lings. Don't get gas, drone micro properly, and you should be fine. Your lings will be out before he'll be engaging, so it'll be something like 16 drones + 4 lings (you) against 8 lings and ~10 drones (-1 per spine he makes). Delay as much as you can, just don't stop making lings. 1 queen and you can poke at his lings, remember that every second he doesn't attack you get further and further ahead! (he isn't even mining). I've never lost to a 10p drone all-in unless I went hatch first. Reactive lings and 1 queen hold this easily. You can probably keep your natural hatch alive too (cancel if it gets low, but if he's attacking it then he's retarded and you can accept your free win).
- Pool-hatch-gas opener (15->16->17 usually)+ Show Spoiler +
Standard macro build. 15 pool, 16 hatch, 17 gas (after overlord and queen) is my favourite variation, but there's many, many others. It gets late gas, so watch out for a 14/14 ling bane all-in. These can be defended by either a) Getting a baneling nest before speed, or b) Getting 3/4 queens and/or a second spine at your natural to defend. Wall off your ramp, simcity to save your spines, etc. There really isn't much to this build. Your first 2 lings can go scout/pressure a little, but only make the 1st pair unless your opponnent is making lings. You should be able to safely enter the midgame with this bulid, every game.
- Hatch first opener (hatch-gas-pool, hatch-pool-gas, etc) + Show Spoiler +
Simple build. The gas before pool openers are safer, but you can only afford 1 queen and speed when the pool finishes. If you get gas after pool + hatch, it's the same as the pool-hatch-gas opener (Read it for defense against 14/14 ling/bane all ins). Don't get supply blocked, stay safe. First 100 gas goes to ling speed, then pull 1 drone off gas until 50 gas where you get a baneling nest (~25-28 supply). With that timing you should be safe. Scout and react, you should be fine against everything.
General tips on defending all-ins:
- Always get a spine at 5:00, and never skip the baneling nest (or delay it past 27). You need these two buildings to survive any sort of mass ling or ling/bane all in.
- Don't be greedy. When your bane nest finishes, morph 3-4 banelings at home. Spread them out. Be careful.
- Poke his natural at 5:15-5:30. This can be with lings or an overlord, anything goes. You need to see his natural drone count at 5:30 at the latest. If you see little/no drones, mass lings and save gas for banelings. If he's about as saturated as you then feel free to only morph 2 banelings to get a faster lair/third/upgrades (whatever your midgame plan is, more on this later).
- Simcity is a good unit. Pros like to create some form of simcity that creates chokes. You can use baneling nests, evo chambers, etc as more than just a tech structure. You know that spine you build around 5:00-5:30? That should be surrounded on 2 sides by a hatch + bane nest
- When worst comes to worst, evacuate the natural and block the ramp. Banelings can't bust up 2 queens, and if you have transfuse then it'll take him a long time (hint: long enough for you to morph defensive banelings!)
- There's no reason not to see any and every unit that leaves his base; use overlords to their full potential!
Specific all-ins:
14/14 Ling-bane all-in
+ Show Spoiler +Super easy to scout (no expand, lots of lings). Just defend with spine/queen/ling, defensive banelings at natural ramp. If you open with a fast gas then get ling speed -> bane nest, otherwise go bane nest first and don't hesitate to make a few extra queens. This is extremely common in the lower leagues, but you should never lose. Play honestly, get a bane nest and spine in time, produce lings after getting a small drone lead, and you should be fine. Defenders advantage is awesome.
1 base roach all-in
+ Show Spoiler +A terrible build. Get a few spines shortly before he moves out, and mass lings. He's so all in that it's okay to stop at ~17 drones. Try to get fast gas for speed; you can then counterattack like it's your job (it is). If he delays his attack then get ~20 speedlings and attack his main when he reaches midmap. You're guaranteed every drone, then just come back to your spines (make 1-2 per minute that he stays on 1 base to be safe).
Just to elaborate a bit: If he's doing a 1 base roach expand, get 2 spines quickly, then pure drones. If he moves out then make 3 more spines and mass lings. It can be hard to identify between a roach expand and a roach all-in, but roaches are so slow that it doesn't matter. As long as you have 2/3 spines, reactive speedlings + spines will hold ezpz.
"2 base" roach/ling all-in
+ Show Spoiler +A bit more powerful, it's been referred to as the "4gate" of ZvZ. It kills you if you teched too hard or droned too hard. It's easy to scout (roaches, almost no drones at natural). It's typically done of 2 gasses, usually has no upgrades. Defend with spine/ling/bane at your natural, and try to start lair before he moves out. The tech advantage you have is huge, along with the drone lead. Stop at like, 34 drones at most and then mass units.
You can also go roaches yourself; if you do this you can actually get more drones out, just with later lair/upgrades. Don't forget banelings to eliminate his lings!
I think that's pretty much all the early game all ins in ZvZ, if I've missed some let me know and I'll add them in!
TL;DR
-Get an honestly timed bane nest + spine
-Try to saturate your natural; that's your goal in the early game
-Use overlords to scout his natural drone count and to see if he moves out
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +- Reactive 15 pool 16 hatch vs 10 pool: http://drop.sc/271103
In this game I really screw up though. However, here's how I should have reacted. After the 16 hatch I should've saved larvae (instead of making 2 drones). Once my pool finishes, I make 6 lings and EASILY defend my natural (optional pull 4 drones if he makes 8 lings). I save my expand, get gas, and actually can't lose from there on. Instead I get 2 lings and a spine so he forces a cancel on my hatch, and I lost the game from there.
- Ling/bane all in defense: http://drop.sc/271244
I screwed up hard in this game too. I defend the ling/bane all in with defensive banelings, a spine, queen, and reactive lings. Unfortunately I overreact with lings, and his mutalisk transition kills me (lack of scouting; I thought he was going full all-in with the ling/bane). This is also vs TSLRagnarok, so I don't think I would've won no matter what.
Closing Notes
+ Show Spoiler +-I plan on adding information about how to play out the midgame of ZvZ. It's a HUGE topic, and there is so much information, that I fear it may be too big a project for me. I'll try though! If I ever get around to it, I'll add it to this post and bump the thread so there's only 1 thread.
-Thanks for reading! If I've missed anything or made any obvious mistakes, please let me know! I don't want to look like a complete fool, and no doubt there's some mistakes. Hope you guys enjoyed!
Edit: Just remembered guides need replays, sorry! I'll add some momentarily!
Edit2: Formatting rofl
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Nice and simple guide for the early game. I like =]
Agreed that midgame zvz is ahuge topic. so many options as to what tech (muta vs roach), addition of hydras to ground armys, larva management etc. like all mirror match ups each decision have clear adv./disadvantages. the majority of the focus is on the midgame and very rarely does zvz get into lategame with broodlords/ultras. GL if you ever decide to make one!
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Your defense against a 14/14 ling-bane all in begins with a statement that is incorrect, namely that this build is "easy to scout". On large maps such as tal'darim, entombed, and condemned, (of which the former two are still used in some tournaments), if your overlord is sent in the wrong direction initially, it can be really hard to scout sometimes. When you do see it coming, sometimes it's far too late for a proper defense.
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How about touching on whether or not to go muta or infestor / Midgame transitioning into Infestor roach / roach hydra infestor or muta ling into roach infestor.
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On November 05 2012 15:06 LgNKane wrote:
Your defense against a 14/14 ling-bane all in begins with a statement that is incorrect, namely that this build is "easy to scout". On large maps such as tal'darim, entombed, and condemned, (of which the former two are still used in some tournaments), if your overlord is sent in the wrong direction initially, it can be really hard to scout sometimes. When you do see it coming, sometimes it's far too late for a proper defense.
I agree, even a speedling allin can kill you on maps like antiga if you do not dronescout, and he is crossposition.
I also feel that 3-4 blind banelings are too much. At this stage of the game you normally have one extractor, which means that gas is very valuable. I think two safety-banelings are enough, if you see a pressure come you can still go in defense mode!
Edit: maybe you should add replays where your advice works properly ;-)
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I feel your spine and baneling nest are too early and would put you behind on drones. You can easily push the baneling nest to at least 30 supply or the spine to 5:30 and still be safe, you two queens can block the ramp until then.
Edit : Against pool first and hatch first to clarify, against 14/14 you indeed need it earlier.
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Nice guide
I really do not get why everyone in ZvZ uses gas to defend o.o
Drones/Spines/Queens win against every all-in.
There is basically no need for banelings against mass lings 
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On November 06 2012 00:26 krawnicks wrote:Nice guide I really do not get why everyone in ZvZ uses gas to defend o.o Drones/Spines/Queens win against every all-in. There is basically no need for banelings against mass lings
because what if they have banelings?
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On November 06 2012 00:26 krawnicks wrote:Nice guide I really do not get why everyone in ZvZ uses gas to defend o.o Drones/Spines/Queens win against every all-in. There is basically no need for banelings against mass lings
Because you having banelings and speed means your opponent has to take that into account and can't just get away with anything. Not to mention 2/3 banelings, while costing gas, can push back a huge amount of lings, putting you ahead. Maybe it's just a playstyle difference and subjective but delaying gas too much in zvz means your opponent can just drone and tech like he wants, or take his third super early.
edit: baneling not ling*
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On November 05 2012 15:06 LgNKane wrote:
Your defense against a 14/14 ling-bane all in begins with a statement that is incorrect, namely that this build is "easy to scout". On large maps such as tal'darim, entombed, and condemned, (of which the former two are still used in some tournaments), if your overlord is sent in the wrong direction initially, it can be really hard to scout sometimes. When you do see it coming, sometimes it's far too late for a proper defense.
Yeah you're right, hadn't thought of that (I have those three vetoed ).
I recommend drone scouting to know where to send your overlords.
My favourite way to scout if he's making drones is make 2 lings when your pool pops, and run around his natural and main drone lines to see if he's making drones. The timing is about right (closer to 5:00 IIRC), and then you can prepare in time.
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To everyone saying the build is too safe (bane + spine timings), I know it is. This isn't really intended for masters players; it's more for the lower level players who are completely lost in the matchup. I'll add in that it's fine to delay this if you feel safe.
I should touch on whether he gets gas before or after he expands, because that's a simple way of remembering things!
maybe you should add replays where your advice works properly ;-)
yeah I'm working on it! I haven't been all-inned since forever. I have a replay of TSLRagnarok doing a ling/bane all-in, but then giving up when he saw I was adequately defended (simcity, spine, defensive banes already morphed). I actually overreacted and he came out with a drone lead though, then I lost because it's a mid master against a near-Code A level pro...
I'll try to play some customs tonight against these all ins to get replays
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On November 06 2012 00:26 krawnicks wrote:Nice guide I really do not get why everyone in ZvZ uses gas to defend o.o Drones/Spines/Queens win against every all-in. There is basically no need for banelings against mass lings
This is true. . . ., and gasless style can work (spanishiwa style)
However, If they scout you, dont all in, and take a very fast third (5-6 min) and d TSLrevival style, you will be behind. Mostly, because you will have slow lings can can't punish the frast third
That being said, you can equalize the game by not attacking at 10 min, taking your own third at 8min. and engage when you are maxed. Course they will be max as well.
ahh, the joy of zvz
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Some things I noticed while reading:
1. You don't really talk about the ramp block with queen although it is the centre point of defending the most popular early all-ins: how do I do it, when do I do it, for how long etc. You imply it somehow, but a low level player who does not know this technique will not learn it from your guide.
2. You should make some basic statements on drone scouting, overlord scouting, and identifying all-ins.
3. On 14/14: you don't emphasize enough that, together with queens and a spine, banelings are the key in defending. In fact, you advise to defend the all-in with spine/queen/ling instead of spine/queen/baneling, but actually it is important to not overmake lings in that situation because even a 14/14 player can outmacro you if you are afraid of dying and only make lings with late speed.
4. The structure of the guide seems confusing to me. You start with general talk about openings in ZvZ, and it isn't really clear if you are referring to builds the reader should do or the reader's opponents might do. If I were you, I would start with taking the viewpoint of a player that is doing a safe standard macro build like 15 hatch with drone scout or 15 pool. Then proceed to explain how to scout a build and how to react to it.
Sorry if I am sounding negative. It seems to me that you have all the knowledge required, but don't organize it correctly. With a little work, this can be a very useful guide for a lot of people.
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On November 06 2012 07:07 velvex wrote:
Some things I noticed while reading:
1. You don't really talk about the ramp block with queen although it is the centre point of defending the most popular early all-ins: how do I do it, when do I do it, for how long etc. You imply it somehow, but a low level player who does not know this technique will not learn it from your guide.
2. You should make some basic statements on drone scouting, overlord scouting, and identifying all-ins.
3. On 14/14: you don't emphasize enough that, together with queens and a spine, banelings are the key in defending. In fact, you advise to defend the all-in with spine/queen/ling instead of spine/queen/baneling, but actually it is important to not overmake lings in that situation because even a 14/14 player can outmacro you if you are afraid of dying and only make lings with late speed.
4. The structure of the guide seems confusing to me. You start with general talk about openings in ZvZ, and it isn't really clear if you are referring to builds the reader should do or the reader's opponents might do. If I were you, I would start with taking the viewpoint of a player that is doing a safe standard macro build like 15 hatch with drone scout or 15 pool. Then proceed to explain how to scout a build and how to react to it.
Sorry if I am sounding negative. It seems to me that you have all the knowledge required, but don't organize it correctly. With a little work, this can be a very useful guide for a lot of people.
Thanks for the feedback, it's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for!
1. Oops, figured the picture was good enough. I guess not, I'll be sure to add that in.
2. I'll go more in depth into this
3. You can't get banelings in time for a 14/14 ling/bane all in if you open pool-hatch-gas. Like, you get banes before he gets >6 banes, but you don't get them in time to meet his initial 4-5.
4. Ok, I think I'll split it into 2 main sections (15 hatch and pool-hatch-gas), and cover the specifics of defending the super quick all ins, and scouting. IMO roach/ling all in defence is the same for both openers, so it'll be after.
Thanks again, constructive criticism is awesome
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On November 06 2012 08:06 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 07:07 velvex wrote:
Some things I noticed while reading:
1. You don't really talk about the ramp block with queen although it is the centre point of defending the most popular early all-ins: how do I do it, when do I do it, for how long etc. You imply it somehow, but a low level player who does not know this technique will not learn it from your guide.
2. You should make some basic statements on drone scouting, overlord scouting, and identifying all-ins.
3. On 14/14: you don't emphasize enough that, together with queens and a spine, banelings are the key in defending. In fact, you advise to defend the all-in with spine/queen/ling instead of spine/queen/baneling, but actually it is important to not overmake lings in that situation because even a 14/14 player can outmacro you if you are afraid of dying and only make lings with late speed.
4. The structure of the guide seems confusing to me. You start with general talk about openings in ZvZ, and it isn't really clear if you are referring to builds the reader should do or the reader's opponents might do. If I were you, I would start with taking the viewpoint of a player that is doing a safe standard macro build like 15 hatch with drone scout or 15 pool. Then proceed to explain how to scout a build and how to react to it.
Sorry if I am sounding negative. It seems to me that you have all the knowledge required, but don't organize it correctly. With a little work, this can be a very useful guide for a lot of people. Thanks for the feedback, it's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for! 1. Oops, figured the picture was good enough. I guess not, I'll be sure to add that in. 2. I'll go more in depth into this 3. You can't get banelings in time for a 14/14 ling/bane all in if you open pool-hatch-gas. Like, you get banes before he gets >6 banes, but you don't get them in time to meet his initial 4-5. 4. Ok, I think I'll split it into 2 main sections (15 hatch and pool-hatch-gas), and cover the specifics of defending the super quick all ins, and scouting. IMO roach/ling all in defence is the same for both openers, so it'll be after. Thanks again, constructive criticism is awesome
I think you can get banes in time if you skip ling speed and get bane next at the first 50 gas. That is what I normally do If I dont see at hatch at the nat. and I get my banes out right as his gets to my base
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On November 06 2012 08:06 Mavvie wrote:
3. You can't get banelings in time for a 14/14 ling/bane all in if you open pool-hatch-gas. Like, you get banes before he gets >6 banes, but you don't get them in time to meet his initial 4-5.
What I wanted to say is that people might go into panic mode and overmake lings because an all-in is coming. A learning player should realize that slow lings don't really help against ling/bane and that you're basically only making them so you always have some to morph into banes. When I learned defending this, I felt I had really improved once I started to make drones behind my queen wall.
Also, in a lot of other early cheese situations where you want to do counter-aggression, it is a good rule to only start making lings once speed is at least 50% done. If you start production too early, you will pretty much in every situation end up with an inefficient, i.e. too high, number of lings.
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You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too.
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On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too.
If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off.
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Hi Mavvie,
Could I request you add some more detail on how the engagements go?
Eg how to hot key units, whether you update hot keys as banes are morphed, do you morph them on high or low ground, etc. A picture or two would help greatly, Tang's guides are very good in this regard.
Regarding the late gas style, I saw Hyun get gas at about 30 in nearly every game in IPL fight club vs Life, perhaps that could be instructive.
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On November 06 2012 11:39 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too. If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off.
If we go into really tight timings (anyone under diamond/masters should indeed refer to Mavvie's timings) your baneling nest can be started at 5:25-30 maximum and you'll be able to make banelings behind your queens as he arrives. I make my gas at 18 after the overlord and take one drone off after speed, the baneling nest still comes in time for speedling allins.
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EPT
