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On November 06 2012 08:12 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 08:06 Mavvie wrote:On November 06 2012 07:07 velvex wrote:
Some things I noticed while reading:
1. You don't really talk about the ramp block with queen although it is the centre point of defending the most popular early all-ins: how do I do it, when do I do it, for how long etc. You imply it somehow, but a low level player who does not know this technique will not learn it from your guide.
2. You should make some basic statements on drone scouting, overlord scouting, and identifying all-ins.
3. On 14/14: you don't emphasize enough that, together with queens and a spine, banelings are the key in defending. In fact, you advise to defend the all-in with spine/queen/ling instead of spine/queen/baneling, but actually it is important to not overmake lings in that situation because even a 14/14 player can outmacro you if you are afraid of dying and only make lings with late speed.
4. The structure of the guide seems confusing to me. You start with general talk about openings in ZvZ, and it isn't really clear if you are referring to builds the reader should do or the reader's opponents might do. If I were you, I would start with taking the viewpoint of a player that is doing a safe standard macro build like 15 hatch with drone scout or 15 pool. Then proceed to explain how to scout a build and how to react to it.
Sorry if I am sounding negative. It seems to me that you have all the knowledge required, but don't organize it correctly. With a little work, this can be a very useful guide for a lot of people. Thanks for the feedback, it's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for!  1. Oops, figured the picture was good enough. I guess not, I'll be sure to add that in. 2. I'll go more in depth into this 3. You can't get banelings in time for a 14/14 ling/bane all in if you open pool-hatch-gas. Like, you get banes before he gets >6 banes, but you don't get them in time to meet his initial 4-5. 4. Ok, I think I'll split it into 2 main sections (15 hatch and pool-hatch-gas), and cover the specifics of defending the super quick all ins, and scouting. IMO roach/ling all in defence is the same for both openers, so it'll be after. Thanks again, constructive criticism is awesome I think you can get banes in time if you skip ling speed and get bane next at the first 50 gas. That is what I normally do If I dont see at hatch at the nat. and I get my banes out right as his gets to my base
My experience is that your banelings wouldn't quite be done in time to prevent him from running banelings up your ramp, but they would be done in time to save your natural. You need the two queens blocking the ramp to deal with the beginning of the aggression, until your banelings morph.
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On November 06 2012 11:39 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too. If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off.
???
To show how absurd your statement is, consider an opponent who takes gas at 4:30: With 4:30 gas, it's impossible for ling speed to be finished in time for a 6:00 speedling allin (1st inject cycle; arrives ~6:25), or even a 6:40 allin (2nd inject cycle; arrives ~7:05); and it's very borderline for an attack @ 7:20 (3rd inject cycle, arrives ~7:45)... Here speed will complete by just about 7:45.
So how can you say gas timing alone is not enough to make a judgment? It clearly is enough.
In my opinion, it is impossible for the opponent to do a 6:00 speedling allin if he did not take his gas in time for speed to complete by, at the very LEAST, by the time his lings arrive at your base... and it really should be earlier. Speed completing when he's halfway across the map is about the most lenient scenario I'd worry about.
But being super lenient, we can say a gas taken by 3:20 or earlier has speed complete by 6:40; 6:40 is the time slowlings would arrive at your base from the 1st larva inject.
Running across the entire map with slowlings is a terrible way for the opponent to allin, you will have 20 more seconds to react even on a small map like Antiga. Your crawlers will almost be done by the time he reaches you... Your next larva inject will be already started creating zerglings by the time he reaches you...
I prefer to say 3:10 gas or later, he won't be 6:00 speedling allining you; it's a safe assumption. Delay crawler, nest, and the 2 preparatory zerglings.
It should be obvious: scouting the gas timing is all you need to adjust your baneling nest timing. If you see a gas 3:20 or later, then by the standard outlined above, delay the nest by 40 seconds (1 inject cycle).
Feel free to look for zerglings popping off hatches, but that information is by no means required. However that information may be useful if you're considering delaying the nest even longer, perhaps by 30 more seconds as an earlier poster suggests; as a riskier style. But for the strictest standard of delaying the nest, it is not necessary to know.
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On November 06 2012 17:54 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:39 MstrJinbo wrote:On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too. If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off. If we go into really tight timings (anyone under diamond/masters should indeed refer to Mavvie's timings) your baneling nest can be started at 5:25-30 maximum and you'll be able to make banelings behind your queens as he arrives. I make my gas at 18 after the overlord and take one drone off after speed, the baneling nest still comes in time for speedling allins.
I find this a good contribution.
Would you lose the queens in this scenario and find youself behind? Are you always ahead after this? Or do your lings tend to pop in time to save the queens?
This could depend on different factors... rush distance and whether his speed timing is directly on time.
I'd think losing 2 queens will put you behind, considering you must pull drones & queens while he has drones & queens still mining. But with perfect injects, and if he kills your queens, I think he will make up his drone deficit and then some. Especially if he stopped building lings after the 1st wave.
I guess it almost seems realistic to me, but I really prefer not to lose the queens...
I almost think the banes are only necessary to be in time for the arrival of the opponents second inject, after the queen / crawler / ling defense has held?? And during the initial defense, you can save at least one queens by your ling inject popping?? That will depend mostly on rush distance/ reaction time.
Whether both queens die is what will sway me I think...
Maybe I agree with you on large maps or if speed is a tad later than optimal for the opponent.
Sorry I am rambling.
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On November 08 2012 14:06 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:39 MstrJinbo wrote:On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too. If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off. ??? To show how absurd your statement is, consider an opponent who takes gas at 4:30: With 4:30 gas, it's impossible for ling speed to be finished in time for a 6:00 speedling allin (1st inject cycle; arrives ~6:25), or even a 6:40 allin (2nd inject cycle; arrives ~7:05); and it's very borderline for an attack @ 7:20 (3rd inject cycle, arrives ~7:45)... Here speed will complete by just about 7:45. So how can you say gas timing alone is not enough to make a judgment? It clearly is enough. In my opinion, it is impossible for the opponent to do a 6:00 speedling allin if he did not take his gas in time for speed to complete by, at the very LEAST, by the time his lings arrive at your base... and it really should be earlier. Speed completing when he's halfway across the map is about the most lenient scenario I'd worry about. But being super lenient, we can say a gas taken by 3:20 or earlier has speed complete by 6:40; 6:40 is the time slowlings would arrive at your base from the 1st larva inject. Running across the entire map with slowlings is a terrible way for the opponent to allin, you will have 20 more seconds to react even on a small map like Antiga. Your crawlers will almost be done by the time he reaches you... Your next larva inject will be already started creating zerglings by the time he reaches you... I prefer to say 3:10 gas or later, he won't be 6:00 speedling allining you; it's a safe assumption. Delay crawler, nest, and the 2 preparatory zerglings. It should be obvious: scouting the gas timing is all you need to adjust your baneling nest timing. If you see a gas 3:20 or later, then by the standard outlined above, delay the nest by 40 seconds (1 inject cycle). Feel free to look for zerglings popping off hatches, but that information is by no means required. However that information may be useful if you're considering delaying the nest even longer, perhaps by 30 more seconds as an earlier poster suggests; as a riskier style. But for the strictest standard of delaying the nest, it is not necessary to know.
We are clearly talking about two totally different things. Your first post Your example is "hatch 1st fast speed" it implies gas taken anywhere from 16-18 after the hatch and/or pool. Now you are saying 4:30 gas? That's gas around when your pool finishes. Gas that late is a bit uncommon. Your typical Zerg will get gas before 20, and gas taken at that time doesn't tell you much other than it could be a speedling allin. It could also be macro so you can't over prepare for defense. Gas at 4:30 is a clear sign that you are not going to be attacked anytime soon. I'd say if you scout that they took gas at 4:30 you can probably take a 5 mIn third.
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Good tips and timings, thanks for the info. Looking forward to your midgame guide!
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On November 08 2012 23:28 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:06 osiris17 wrote:On November 06 2012 11:39 MstrJinbo wrote:On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too. If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off. ??? To show how absurd your statement is, consider an opponent who takes gas at 4:30: With 4:30 gas, it's impossible for ling speed to be finished in time for a 6:00 speedling allin (1st inject cycle; arrives ~6:25), or even a 6:40 allin (2nd inject cycle; arrives ~7:05); and it's very borderline for an attack @ 7:20 (3rd inject cycle, arrives ~7:45)... Here speed will complete by just about 7:45. So how can you say gas timing alone is not enough to make a judgment? It clearly is enough. In my opinion, it is impossible for the opponent to do a 6:00 speedling allin if he did not take his gas in time for speed to complete by, at the very LEAST, by the time his lings arrive at your base... and it really should be earlier. Speed completing when he's halfway across the map is about the most lenient scenario I'd worry about. But being super lenient, we can say a gas taken by 3:20 or earlier has speed complete by 6:40; 6:40 is the time slowlings would arrive at your base from the 1st larva inject. Running across the entire map with slowlings is a terrible way for the opponent to allin, you will have 20 more seconds to react even on a small map like Antiga. Your crawlers will almost be done by the time he reaches you... Your next larva inject will be already started creating zerglings by the time he reaches you... I prefer to say 3:10 gas or later, he won't be 6:00 speedling allining you; it's a safe assumption. Delay crawler, nest, and the 2 preparatory zerglings. It should be obvious: scouting the gas timing is all you need to adjust your baneling nest timing. If you see a gas 3:20 or later, then by the standard outlined above, delay the nest by 40 seconds (1 inject cycle). Feel free to look for zerglings popping off hatches, but that information is by no means required. However that information may be useful if you're considering delaying the nest even longer, perhaps by 30 more seconds as an earlier poster suggests; as a riskier style. But for the strictest standard of delaying the nest, it is not necessary to know. We are clearly talking about two totally different things. Your first post Your example is "hatch 1st fast speed" it implies gas taken anywhere from 16-18 after the hatch and/or pool. Now you are saying 4:30 gas? That's gas around when your pool finishes. Gas that late is a bit uncommon. Your typical Zerg will get gas before 20, and gas taken at that time doesn't tell you much other than it could be a speedling allin. It could also be macro so you can't over prepare for defense. Gas at 4:30 is a clear sign that you are not going to be attacked anytime soon. I'd say if you scout that they took gas at 4:30 you can probably take a 5 mIn third.
No, you just misread me / I didnt make it clear enough. Think for yourself about it. If you scout slower gas, you can delay the crawler. That's all I'm saying. The guide talks about an 'honestly timed nest / crawler' every game being at 5:00 / 5:30.
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There're a lot of ZvZ allins. There're some early bane openings that I think would smash 15/16/17 (like 11overpool baneling), and there's 10pool mass speedling, +1melee/carapace speedling (not good builds IMO), and others, I'm guessing.
11overpool baneling is pretty darned good I think, though I forget the build order offhand. I think it's something like 11gas/10pool->speed->bane nest, 2 on gas, rest of supply into lings. You hit with 4 banes and a bunch of speedlings pretty early on.
Still, may be worth investigating... sorry can't provide more insight, I don't really play ZvZ anymore =P
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For your hatch first opener there is a built that will allow u to get double queen and speed and bang nest. 15(hatch) >>> 17(gas) >>> 17(pool) you pull off when you get enough for speed and leave 1 drone in to get the gas for the bang nest. This is one of the most greedy openers in zvz, which is why I'd only recommend it on big maps
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For your hatch first opener there is a built that will allow u to get double queen and speed and bang nest. 15(hatch) >>> 17(gas) >>> 17(pool) you pull off when you get enough for speed and leave 1 drone in to get the gas for the bang nest. This is one of the most greedy openers in zvz, which is why I'd only recommend it on big maps
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On November 08 2012 14:21 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 17:54 NeonFox wrote:On November 06 2012 11:39 MstrJinbo wrote:On November 06 2012 11:00 osiris17 wrote:
You can delay the nest / spine depending on the gas timing you scout, or if you scout a spine / 3rd queen.
The spine doesnt need to be down til 5:30 against a hatch 1st & fast speed build, & this can be delayed until 6:10 if you scout the gas timing I mentioned. Nest likewise can be delayed from 5:00 to 5:40 if you scout the delayed gas.
2 zerglings scouting are useful too. If all you are going by is the gas timing, 5:40 is on the late side for the baneling nest. You need to scout stuff like drone count too. Speedlings allins off hatch first will have 30 lings in your natural by 6:30. With baneling nests taking about a minute to build you will find yourself pretty dead if you try and take it at 5:40. 5:00 is pretty much when you want to start the nest to hold that off. If we go into really tight timings (anyone under diamond/masters should indeed refer to Mavvie's timings) your baneling nest can be started at 5:25-30 maximum and you'll be able to make banelings behind your queens as he arrives. I make my gas at 18 after the overlord and take one drone off after speed, the baneling nest still comes in time for speedling allins. I find this a good contribution. Would you lose the queens in this scenario and find youself behind? Are you always ahead after this? Or do your lings tend to pop in time to save the queens? This could depend on different factors... rush distance and whether his speed timing is directly on time. I'd think losing 2 queens will put you behind, considering you must pull drones & queens while he has drones & queens still mining. But with perfect injects, and if he kills your queens, I think he will make up his drone deficit and then some. Especially if he stopped building lings after the 1st wave. I guess it almost seems realistic to me, but I really prefer not to lose the queens... I almost think the banes are only necessary to be in time for the arrival of the opponents second inject, after the queen / crawler / ling defense has held?? And during the initial defense, you can save at least one queens by your ling inject popping?? That will depend mostly on rush distance/ reaction time. Whether both queens die is what will sway me I think... Maybe I agree with you on large maps or if speed is a tad later than optimal for the opponent. Sorry I am rambling.
I only saw this now so sorry if it's a bit late. Yes the banelings begin morphing a bit after the first wave hits, you have to pre-hotkey a couple lings behind the queens and morph then as soon as possible. I very rarely lose the queens, sometimes one if i don't pull it back soon enough to allow my lings stacking up behind to take the relay. As you said you only really need to hold until the baneling pop and a small pack of lings can hold a much larger one on a ramp.
If they are really obstinate about taking your queens down they take a huge risk, the next ling wave from my nat will block the ramp at the bottom and the banelings coming from the top can take out pretty much every ling stuck on the ramp. Most of the time they just give up and go to take down the spine and try to kill lings as they hatch from the nat.
It's all about seeing the lings coming though if I don't have an overlord in place to see it early enough for some reason (they usualy don't commit queens to kill them since they need every inject to hit the timing) I'll keep 3 on gas.
I think many people do this, some even take the gas later and get a third queen earlier but I consider it way to greedy though, nothing stops the opponent from plopping down a second gas and going lingbane allin if he sees your banelings nest is very late. The gas timing I described is the latest I can feel comfortable with in standard play, I can still hold ling allins and punish greedy players.
On November 10 2012 09:53 Defenestrator wrote:
There're a lot of ZvZ allins. There're some early bane openings that I think would smash 15/16/17 (like 11overpool baneling), and there's 10pool mass speedling, +1melee/carapace speedling (not good builds IMO), and others, I'm guessing.
11overpool baneling is pretty darned good I think, though I forget the build order offhand. I think it's something like 11gas/10pool->speed->bane nest, 2 on gas, rest of supply into lings. You hit with 4 banes and a bunch of speedlings pretty early on.
Still, may be worth investigating... sorry can't provide more insight, I don't really play ZvZ anymore =P
10-11 pools are easy to hold with pool first, especially with 14/15p into 16 hatch. You have the pool early enough to get queens in time and creep in the nat to bring your spine down. You can even skip gas for a bit since 2 queens and a spine are enough to stop one base play.
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EPT
