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[G] Hæssebust: ZvZ Baneling All-In (Or is it?)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7aYsc.jpg)
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen of TeamLiquid, welcome to another Zerg vs Zerg guide!
Today I'm going to do something a little different. Normally when I write a guide, I choose a build or style that I use often, but this time I'm instead going to analyze a style of early Baneling aggression that I often struggle against on ladder: The Hæssebust! You could say this style has become the bane of my Zerg vs Zerg (Get it, "bane"?). Anyway! I've enlisted the help of my good friend Strand (aka GLCheesyJunk), a top Master/Grandmaster Norwegian Zerg player who has graciously provided replays and his own insights into this refined and aggressive style. He also joined me in one of the two stream tutorials, and will be available to help answer some of your questions in the comments.
Here are the two timing attacks that we'll be looking at:
1) Hyper-Aggressive Bust: 8 Banelings and 20 Zerglings arrive at 6:30 (~24 Drones)
2) Delayed "Big" Bust: 21 Banelings and 26 Zerglings arrive at 7:50 (~35 Drones)
Along with most forms of early pressure, the question always comes up: "How much of a commitment is it?" or "How All-In is it?" While there is no right or wrong answer, I will provide a poll at the end of the guide for you to provide your opinion, and I encourage you all to explain your own reasoning in the comments below.
Reddit Link:
+ Show Spoiler +Please show support by "Upvoting" this guide on Reddit! <3 Reddit Link
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Stream Tutorials:
+ Show Spoiler +
Opening Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +*Note: The opening build order stays the same regardless of which bust you opt to use.
15Hatch
17Gas (Rally 16th Drone to Geyser)
16Pool
18Overlord
Drones to 20
20 Queensx2
First 100gas into Zergling Speed.
Drones to 26
26 Overlord
28 Baneling Nest (First 50 gas after Zergling Speed)
27 Zerglings x 2-4 (1 or 2 set of lings)
Option 1: Hyper-Aggressive Bust (1 Gas):
+ Show Spoiler +*Note: This build picks up from the last step of the "Opening Build Order."
28 Continue Producing Zerglings
29 Overlord
Continue Zergling Production, get initial Zerglings out across the field and set Hatchery rally points to below your opponent's expansion.
First round of double-injects should finish, allowing you to make Zerglings to 42 Supply.
Start morphing in Banelings 2 at a time when initial Zerglings arrive outside of opponent's expansion. Initial Banelings should morph by 6:00.
20 Zerglings and 8 Banelings arrive at 6:30
Option 2: Delayed Bust (2 Gas):
+ Show Spoiler +*Note: This build picks up from the last step of the "Opening Build Order."
28 Continue Droning
30 Overlord
First double inject on Drones all the way to 40 supply
40 Supply (Around 5:45) Start 2nd Gas and 2x Overlords
40 Zergling Production. Do your best to prevent Overlords and Zerglings from scouting your Zerglings.
54 Overlord and move out with Zerglings, set rally points.
By 7:15 you should be morphing Banelings two at a time outside your opponent's expansion.
All-In (Or is it?)
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Do you think these Baneling timing attacks are all-in?No - If you're on top of your multitasking, this attack is just a stepping stone into the midgame. (63) 52% Yes - This attack puts all your eggs in one basket. You can't really transition out of it. (59) 48% 122 total votes Your vote: Do you think these Baneling timing attacks are all-in? (Vote): Yes - This attack puts all your eggs in one basket. You can't really transition out of it.
(Vote): No - If you're on top of your multitasking, this attack is just a stepping stone into the midgame.
Many thanks to all of you for reading and providing your feedback and insights below <3
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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:O i faced the 2 gas version on ladder
It's pretty strong
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the 1 gas, 28 food version baneling bust has been around for 2 years, maybe longer. It's the oldest, most standard baneling attack. I never have a problem stopping it, and I end up 10 drones ahead or sometimes more.
The 2 gas version I haven't faced much and I think it's a bit more promising.
I've also encountered a plus1 carapace ling / bane bust, which I think is pretty powerful against opponents who open fast 3rd (that being me). But since you have to commit to it before scouting the 3rd, I think it's a bad way to play.
The 2 gas version you have listed here may be reactive to certain builds so I like the idea of it. Still I'm sure the correct reactionary defense will come out ahead, but the attack should come as a surprise.
Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler...
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On September 18 2012 04:32 osiris17 wrote:
the 1 gas, 28 food version baneling bust has been around for 2 years, maybe longer. It's the oldest, most standard baneling attack. I never have a problem stopping it, and I end up 10 drones ahead or sometimes more.
The 2 gas version I haven't faced much and I think it's a bit more promising.
I've also encountered a plus1 carapace ling / bane bust, which I think is pretty powerful against opponents who open fast 3rd (that being me). But since you have to commit to it before scouting the 3rd, I think it's a bad way to play.
The 2 gas version you have listed here may be reactive to certain builds so I like the idea of it. Still I'm sure the correct reactionary defense will come out ahead, but the attack should come as a surprise.
Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
My personal response against this style is a complete wall-off to buy time for roaches, which works quite well also. I think the 2-gas variation is definitely a great build to either mix into a BoX or do reactively if you scout an early third (as you say). I honestly think doing the 2-gas style blindly could net you a very nice win/loss ratio in ladder (assuming your execution is decent).
I've also encountered the +1 armor baneling bust you mention, and it slaughtered me because I was playing greedy lol but I wanted to keep this guide limited to two styles of baneling aggression.
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I think the coolest aspect of the 2-gas variation is the fact that you reach 35~ drones before building any lings, which means you can transition into full-saturation with just a double-inject worth of Drones.
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If you open fast 3rd, you get the early crawler as per usual, and upon scouting this you may reactively uprooting the crawler & move it to the 3rd while building another @ the natural. This I think is the correct response. Then with proper micro you should be able to hold off lings & banes until roaches. Same for the plus 1 carapace, but that is more scoutable than the one you have posted here. Simply observing when he takes his gas & when his speed does or does not complete is a fair indication he is doing that build (speed being late it's either that or a very fast lair).
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On September 18 2012 04:46 osiris17 wrote:
If you open fast 3rd, you get the early crawler as per usual, and upon scouting this you may reactively uprooting the crawler & move it to the 3rd while building another @ the natural. This I think is the correct response. Then with proper micro you should be able to hold off lings & banes until roaches. Same for the plus 1 carapace, but that is more scoutable than the one you have posted here. Simply observing when he takes his gas & when his speed completes is a fair indication he is doing that build.
I like where your heads at, but I do think if they take a third they're in quite a bit of trouble. It's hard to get the roaches out in time, and you have to think 20+ banelings before the 8minute mark is nearly a build-order win if they take a third.
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If he has 20 you should have about 10 I suppose. Just keep morphing banes. Haven't tested it. If you scout those lings, then build a 2nd crawler at the 3rd along with the natural one. You can probably afford it. 20 banes all at once is gona be difficult. He really shouldnt be able to get that many banes coming in at you all at once, unless he prebuilt alot of lings to defend them. That's 500 gas worse of banes & minerals, which if he has that much saved up then he came alot later. And if he's coming way later, his drone count, lack of 3rd gas & lack of a 3rd is gona start giving him away. If you move your main queen to your natural, and your natural to your 3rd, then that should help along with the crawlers. But the 2 main things I find help with defending lings & banes is to keep sending 2 banes his way, in order to force him back, and then to keep morphing banes and not forget injects. If you do that.. and you have the crawlers needed, you will be okay I think.
If it really comes down to it and he kills your 3rd, you will still be ahead in drones (assuming you were behind in lings) and the cost ineffectiveness of running banes forward into crawlers & queens, along with your roach transition & him being stuck with leftover banes & lings, should mean you are ahead of him anyway (both of you being on 2 base). The 3rd cost 350 minerals, but 20 banes cost 500/500. The earlier 2nd gas, lesser drone count, combined with morphing those extra banes are gona put him economically quite a bit behind. The crawlers do cost ~300-450 but depending on how many lings you have compared to him, you may not even need them.
The more banes he is morphing, the more lings he's gona need to defend them, and the less lings you morphed beforehand the more drones you have on him.
In my experience money tends to accumulate during these surprise ling bane busts. Not because of bad macro either. Just larva being spent on lings & banes, & not much else, isn't the most efficient use of resources. So I think you could even build a 2nd gas reactively if he comes at this timing, to begin evening out the bane numbers & also provide cash for roaches. So with that if your crawlers & lings & queens hold off the first wave, the 2nd wave wont be any disadvantage.
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i use the 2 gas delayed bust pretty often, as it is quite efective and requires not that high amount of micro (i am a working guy, not time to play that much). Also it is hard to not do any damage using 10+ banelings  , so you can transition out most of the time. The real downside is your delayed tec as the banes suck up all your gas. So if your oppenent can fend it off even with hard losses you still lose frequently because of being behind in upgrades/infestors/muta tec afterwards. So its kind of all-in tec-wise.
Its imho actually wrong to drone up even after inflicting heavy damage, you got a better chance at killing him directly before his tech kicks in. So yes: pretty all in, but sweet 
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On September 18 2012 04:32 osiris17 wrote:
the 1 gas, 28 food version baneling bust has been around for 2 years, maybe longer. It's the oldest, most standard baneling attack. I never have a problem stopping it, and I end up 10 drones ahead or sometimes more.
You're quite right in that it's a pretty ortodox baneling all-in, however due to the 17 gas 17 pool opening you hit a very good timing because you'll be 50~ gas ahead of the normal zvz openers. But yeah, you're right in that its pretty simple to stop if you know how to do it and get a good read with your initial lings, but it can be quite deadly vs greedy zergs trying to cut corners. In my opinion it's a good, refined all-in to have in your arsenal to punish greedy zergs in a boX.
Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler...
I think you fail to recognize the pure power the amount of banelings this 2 gas verson brings. First off, it is very hard to detect. Only way would be to get lings inside the main at the perfect timng, spotting the second gas being taken with no evos, warren or lair. However, lings in the main should easily be denied by a queen/ling wall-off at the ramp, so most times, due to the high number of drones at the natural, this will just look like a standard (greedy) zvz build that could transition into anything. Because of this, you'll have no reason to get out earlier roaches than normal or invest in any defense at all really, and this is one of the reasons this build is so hard to stop.
If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines.
One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent.
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It's a cool build, but the way banelings work the defender can always defend if he has about half the banes of the attacker (almost always I'd say). Personally i tried doing similar busts based off a 15gas/pool build, but even with earlier speed than my opponent I've seldom managed to inflict game winning damage.
The spacing of banes is probably the most important part, but given that you have to cross ramps, as long as your opponent spaces his own banes (granted something where many people make mistakes) he should be able to hold it. He has 2+ queens and a spine ready to defend if he doesn't scout at all, but if he scouts something and has 12 lings to morph into banes the attack will be a waste of ressource imho.
The earlier attack is pretty much a throwback to the earlier days of Sc2, it sounds exactly the same as the 2 base baneling build we had back then. It's still pretty strong, but the counter is pretty known by now.
Oh btw: one way to pretty much autoloose with this build is if he ramp blocks with 2 queens in time to save all his natural drones (on some maps problematic). If he has 2 queens on a ramp, 1 spine and 6 banes of his own you won't be able to kill much of anything.
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On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:
One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly.
Get ahold of yourself man!
On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Show nested quote +Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent.
I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days.
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Wouldn't the first option work against terran if you take a second gas and bust his wall?
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On September 18 2012 05:20 osiris17 wrote:One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly. Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent. I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days.
Feel free to check out my replays, even though the selection is quite limited (I'm lazy when it comes to saving my replays, I'll try to upload some more in the future), you could check out the one vs SortOf for reference vs a high level player.
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On September 18 2012 05:20 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:
One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly. Get ahold of yourself man! Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent. I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days.
You can't assume your always going to be able to scout / defend against this attack as easily as you proclaim. I don't care how good your crisis management is. Chances are you will always have less banes then your opponent while defending and i want to see you defend against 10 waves of paired banes plus lings. I agree it can be defended well if you prepare and execute properly but ling bane micro is very difficult with little to no room for error.
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The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact.
The second build I saw Ret do on stream a lot, and that seemed really strong. Thanks for typing it out.
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On September 18 2012 06:55 Indrium wrote:
The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact.
It's true, everyone notes the "defenders' advantage," but not a lot of people talk about the "attackers' advantage." As the attacker, you can have a precise time where you switch to droning, and you can force your opponent to make decisions in the dark.
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On September 18 2012 11:37 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:55 Indrium wrote:
The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact. It's true, everyone notes the "defenders' advantage," but not a lot of people talk about the "attackers' advantage." As the attacker, you can have a precise time where you switch to droning, and you can force your opponent to make decisions in the dark.
Yes but their is a flaw in that to. I have done it many times personally when a player does some high aggression verse me, does a ton of economic damage and then drones and then dies to my counter since I kept making units and he finished a round of drones and thus has no larva to make units to defend when he is super far ahead economically.
This is something I face playing GM's on the NA server.
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On September 18 2012 11:40 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:37 TangSC wrote:On September 18 2012 06:55 Indrium wrote:
The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact. It's true, everyone notes the "defenders' advantage," but not a lot of people talk about the "attackers' advantage." As the attacker, you can have a precise time where you switch to droning, and you can force your opponent to make decisions in the dark. Yes but their is a flaw in that to. I have done it many times personally when a player does some high aggression verse me, does a ton of economic damage and then drones and then dies to my counter since I kept making units and he finished a round of drones and thus has no larva to make units to defend when he is super far ahead economically. This is something I face playing GM's on the NA server.
That's true, that happens. I've fallen way behind to timing attacks and decided to counter all-in asap and won. The thing is with this style, if you've done a ton of economic damage, you're not going to transition - you continue the onslaught and constantly reinforce knowing he can't possible defend with his diminished economy. If someone does a ton of economic damage with his Zergling/Baneling then backs off, I'd say that's a mistake in decision making.
What I meant by attackers' advantage is if you're NOT doing critical damage to end the game, you can have a clear idea of when you're going to transition whereas your opponent will not know. Of course then you have to gauge whether your opponent is going to counter-attack so you don't die to an all-in
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Norway839 Posts
The hæssebust is a great response to 2-base muta. See 4 gas? Go for the hæssebust!
I'm so happy to see this beautiful piece of Norwegian SC2 culture displayed to the public!
Back in the days I used to hæsse with as much as 3 geysers! Those were the days ))
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EPT
