EPT[G] Hæssebust: ZvZ Baneling All-In (Or is it?) - Page 2
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
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aFganFlyTrap
Australia212 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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ChadMann
Australia128 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On September 19 2012 03:16 ChadMann wrote: Yeah this is a build Targa has been using. I've also used it - as a Diamond zerg taking games off unsuspecting GM's and players loads better than I. Like any all in, if you catch them unprepared - its an easy win. Scout the three gas no Lair - evo wall and a few spines hold this all in pretty easy. It's not that easy to scout the gas and lair timings, though. This style gets Zergling speed as early as possible for a hatch-first opening. Speedlings + Queens make it possible to deny scouting of overlords and zerglings. Also, if your opponent opens with any lower-economy form of Speedling or Baneling aggression, he'll be hard-pressed to hold off the counter-attack. | ||
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TheCSerps
Australia19 Posts
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inFeZa
Australia556 Posts
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:33 lodeet wrote: You can't assume your always going to be able to scout / defend against this attack as easily as you proclaim. I don't care how good your crisis management is. Chances are you will always have less banes then your opponent while defending and i want to see you defend against 10 waves of paired banes plus lings. I agree it can be defended well if you prepare and execute properly but ling bane micro is very difficult with little to no room for error. Right now people are reacting poorly to this strategy. It takes them by surprise, and that cannot be underestimated. The more common it becomes, the less it will work. And yes, I do think I can always scout it. If they have built 20 zerglings for banelings, and then additional zerglings in order to defend those banelings, they have built 30 or more zerglings. I think scouting the drone count and noticing they don't have their gas or 15 drones is going to be a pretty solid indication. If their natural is saturated and they have both gas taken (like they should if teching), then it's a confirmation against this build. If really necessary, scout the natural at a certain timing to check the units popping off it. This build hasnt been integrated into the metagame yet... I don't think it will last. I'd rather practice honing my defenses against this than surprising people with it. The first build is so old and dealt with. It punishes greed sometimes, I guess. Open with a crawler and you can defend it even with greed. | ||
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ggMufasa
Australia24 Posts
Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On September 19 2012 22:25 ggMufasa wrote: Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless. Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust. | ||
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ggMufasa
Australia24 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:04 TangSC wrote: Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust. Depends on the amount of roaches, if he's trying to take a 3rd and has only made 4-6 roaches for defence that shouldn't be a problem. It's probably when he's also going for an all in where he has 10+ roaches where you'll have trouble busting... but then ofc once you scout that many roaches you just through down a few spines at home and with the amount of lings you have you can just use them for counter attacks to delay the push. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Biggun69
187 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7799 Posts
On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins. It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering. ...lol. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins. Not necessarily, I think that would depend on the timing of the Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-in. If your opponents go for too low a drone count, I think this style can hold off the all-in with an advantage. If they go for too many drones, I think the bust hits before they get a sufficient amount of roaches to defend. There's also the opportunity to win unorthodox games with good decision making (ie. counter-attacking.) On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering. In some ways I can see how you'd say it's a coin flip build (against some roaches builds you'll be shut down completely), but it can be used reactively at times too against fast Mutalisk styles. You also can't say it's only good for low league laddering, because it has been consistently used by high-level ZvZ players. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On September 21 2012 10:55 TangSC wrote: Not necessarily, I think that would depend on the timing of the Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-in. If your opponents go for too low a drone count, I think this style can hold off the all-in with an advantage. If they go for too many drones, I think the bust hits before they get a sufficient amount of roaches to defend. There's also the opportunity to win unorthodox games with good decision making (ie. counter-attacking.) In some ways I can see how you'd say it's a coin flip build (against some roaches builds you'll be shut down completely), but it can be used reactively at times too against fast Mutalisk styles. You also can't say it's only good for low league laddering, because it has been consistently used by high-level ZvZ players. That's why I said it's good in tournaments for coin flips. Even reactively used against lair builds it's a coinflip, especially if you don't know exactly what their lair is for. I recognize that high level players use this, but some pros also use 10 pool speedling or baneling all-ins in ZvZ too and those are undeniably coin flip builds too. The point about "low league laddering" was that while this is a coin flip build for tournaments, in low league play it's likely to work a majority of the time. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On September 21 2012 14:54 oOOoOphidian wrote: That's why I said it's good in tournaments for coin flips. Even reactively used against lair builds it's a coinflip, especially if you don't know exactly what their lair is for. In that sense, couldn't you argue that all builds are essentially coin flips? I don't think using this build against a fast 4-gas player would net only a 50% win/loss ratio, it would be much higher. On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:I recognize that high level players use this, but some pros also use 10 pool speedling or baneling all-ins in ZvZ too and those are undeniably coin flip builds too. There's a big difference between 1base builds that aims for 10-15 drones and 2base builds that aim for 24-38 drones. Those earlier forms of aggression are more of a commitment, and they're usually "blind" (not used in response to your opponent's build.) On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:The point about "low league laddering" was that while this is a coin flip build for tournaments, in low league play it's likely to work a majority of the time. I understand what you mean, I think I just dislike the term "coin-flip" because it's kind of negative and implies that either you win or you lose, when I think we can all agree that ZvZ is much more unpredictable than that because there are a lot of games that I would consider "grey areas," where it comes down to execution and decision-making. I also don't know whether this build is more or less likely to work in the lower leagues, it seems like speculation...you may very well be right, I'd just need to hear your reasoning. I would personally argue that this build is better for higher-level players who can manage the injects/Zergling production while properly morphing in Banelings 2 at a time, with the experience to make the optimal decisions with the Banelings. | ||
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ChadMann
Australia128 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:04 TangSC wrote: Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust. When I do the build - if I scout roaches I focus them with the banes if there are 4ish Roaches, any more and I avoid the roaches and go straight for the run by to kill drones, while I put down my own Roach Warren and a spine or two, get Lair and play defensive. Usually I'd die if I didn't get some good drone hits, which is easy to do. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On September 23 2012 17:49 ChadMann wrote: When I do the build - if I scout roaches I focus them with the banes if there are 4ish Roaches, any more and I avoid the roaches and go straight for the run by to kill drones, while I put down my own Roach Warren and a spine or two, get Lair and play defensive. Usually I'd die if I didn't get some good drone hits, which is easy to do. Ok, so if you scouted roaches you'd still put on the initial pressure with the Zergling/Baneling mainly with the goal of killing workers, so that you can transition to roaches yourself with a worker advantage. I think this sounds more solid than continuing to reinforce Ling/Baneling, since they're probably going to build at least 6-8 roaches when you first engage. | ||
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