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[G] Hæssebust: ZvZ Baneling All-In (Or is it?)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7aYsc.jpg)
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen of TeamLiquid, welcome to another Zerg vs Zerg guide!
Today I'm going to do something a little different. Normally when I write a guide, I choose a build or style that I use often, but this time I'm instead going to analyze a style of early Baneling aggression that I often struggle against on ladder: The Hæssebust! You could say this style has become the bane of my Zerg vs Zerg (Get it, "bane"?). Anyway! I've enlisted the help of my good friend Strand (aka GLCheesyJunk), a top Master/Grandmaster Norwegian Zerg player who has graciously provided replays and his own insights into this refined and aggressive style. He also joined me in one of the two stream tutorials, and will be available to help answer some of your questions in the comments.
Here are the two timing attacks that we'll be looking at:
1) Hyper-Aggressive Bust: 8 Banelings and 20 Zerglings arrive at 6:30 (~24 Drones)
2) Delayed "Big" Bust: 21 Banelings and 26 Zerglings arrive at 7:50 (~35 Drones)
Along with most forms of early pressure, the question always comes up: "How much of a commitment is it?" or "How All-In is it?" While there is no right or wrong answer, I will provide a poll at the end of the guide for you to provide your opinion, and I encourage you all to explain your own reasoning in the comments below.
Reddit Link:
+ Show Spoiler +Please show support by "Upvoting" this guide on Reddit! <3 Reddit Link
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Stream Tutorials:
+ Show Spoiler +
Opening Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +*Note: The opening build order stays the same regardless of which bust you opt to use.
15Hatch
17Gas (Rally 16th Drone to Geyser)
16Pool
18Overlord
Drones to 20
20 Queensx2
First 100gas into Zergling Speed.
Drones to 26
26 Overlord
28 Baneling Nest (First 50 gas after Zergling Speed)
27 Zerglings x 2-4 (1 or 2 set of lings)
Option 1: Hyper-Aggressive Bust (1 Gas):
+ Show Spoiler +*Note: This build picks up from the last step of the "Opening Build Order."
28 Continue Producing Zerglings
29 Overlord
Continue Zergling Production, get initial Zerglings out across the field and set Hatchery rally points to below your opponent's expansion.
First round of double-injects should finish, allowing you to make Zerglings to 42 Supply.
Start morphing in Banelings 2 at a time when initial Zerglings arrive outside of opponent's expansion. Initial Banelings should morph by 6:00.
20 Zerglings and 8 Banelings arrive at 6:30
Option 2: Delayed Bust (2 Gas):
+ Show Spoiler +*Note: This build picks up from the last step of the "Opening Build Order."
28 Continue Droning
30 Overlord
First double inject on Drones all the way to 40 supply
40 Supply (Around 5:45) Start 2nd Gas and 2x Overlords
40 Zergling Production. Do your best to prevent Overlords and Zerglings from scouting your Zerglings.
54 Overlord and move out with Zerglings, set rally points.
By 7:15 you should be morphing Banelings two at a time outside your opponent's expansion.
All-In (Or is it?)
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Do you think these Baneling timing attacks are all-in?No - If you're on top of your multitasking, this attack is just a stepping stone into the midgame. (63) 52% Yes - This attack puts all your eggs in one basket. You can't really transition out of it. (59) 48% 122 total votes Your vote: Do you think these Baneling timing attacks are all-in? (Vote): Yes - This attack puts all your eggs in one basket. You can't really transition out of it.
(Vote): No - If you're on top of your multitasking, this attack is just a stepping stone into the midgame.
Many thanks to all of you for reading and providing your feedback and insights below <3
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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:O i faced the 2 gas version on ladder
It's pretty strong
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the 1 gas, 28 food version baneling bust has been around for 2 years, maybe longer. It's the oldest, most standard baneling attack. I never have a problem stopping it, and I end up 10 drones ahead or sometimes more.
The 2 gas version I haven't faced much and I think it's a bit more promising.
I've also encountered a plus1 carapace ling / bane bust, which I think is pretty powerful against opponents who open fast 3rd (that being me). But since you have to commit to it before scouting the 3rd, I think it's a bad way to play.
The 2 gas version you have listed here may be reactive to certain builds so I like the idea of it. Still I'm sure the correct reactionary defense will come out ahead, but the attack should come as a surprise.
Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler...
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On September 18 2012 04:32 osiris17 wrote:
the 1 gas, 28 food version baneling bust has been around for 2 years, maybe longer. It's the oldest, most standard baneling attack. I never have a problem stopping it, and I end up 10 drones ahead or sometimes more.
The 2 gas version I haven't faced much and I think it's a bit more promising.
I've also encountered a plus1 carapace ling / bane bust, which I think is pretty powerful against opponents who open fast 3rd (that being me). But since you have to commit to it before scouting the 3rd, I think it's a bad way to play.
The 2 gas version you have listed here may be reactive to certain builds so I like the idea of it. Still I'm sure the correct reactionary defense will come out ahead, but the attack should come as a surprise.
Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
My personal response against this style is a complete wall-off to buy time for roaches, which works quite well also. I think the 2-gas variation is definitely a great build to either mix into a BoX or do reactively if you scout an early third (as you say). I honestly think doing the 2-gas style blindly could net you a very nice win/loss ratio in ladder (assuming your execution is decent).
I've also encountered the +1 armor baneling bust you mention, and it slaughtered me because I was playing greedy lol but I wanted to keep this guide limited to two styles of baneling aggression.
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I think the coolest aspect of the 2-gas variation is the fact that you reach 35~ drones before building any lings, which means you can transition into full-saturation with just a double-inject worth of Drones.
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If you open fast 3rd, you get the early crawler as per usual, and upon scouting this you may reactively uprooting the crawler & move it to the 3rd while building another @ the natural. This I think is the correct response. Then with proper micro you should be able to hold off lings & banes until roaches. Same for the plus 1 carapace, but that is more scoutable than the one you have posted here. Simply observing when he takes his gas & when his speed does or does not complete is a fair indication he is doing that build (speed being late it's either that or a very fast lair).
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On September 18 2012 04:46 osiris17 wrote:
If you open fast 3rd, you get the early crawler as per usual, and upon scouting this you may reactively uprooting the crawler & move it to the 3rd while building another @ the natural. This I think is the correct response. Then with proper micro you should be able to hold off lings & banes until roaches. Same for the plus 1 carapace, but that is more scoutable than the one you have posted here. Simply observing when he takes his gas & when his speed completes is a fair indication he is doing that build.
I like where your heads at, but I do think if they take a third they're in quite a bit of trouble. It's hard to get the roaches out in time, and you have to think 20+ banelings before the 8minute mark is nearly a build-order win if they take a third.
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If he has 20 you should have about 10 I suppose. Just keep morphing banes. Haven't tested it. If you scout those lings, then build a 2nd crawler at the 3rd along with the natural one. You can probably afford it. 20 banes all at once is gona be difficult. He really shouldnt be able to get that many banes coming in at you all at once, unless he prebuilt alot of lings to defend them. That's 500 gas worse of banes & minerals, which if he has that much saved up then he came alot later. And if he's coming way later, his drone count, lack of 3rd gas & lack of a 3rd is gona start giving him away. If you move your main queen to your natural, and your natural to your 3rd, then that should help along with the crawlers. But the 2 main things I find help with defending lings & banes is to keep sending 2 banes his way, in order to force him back, and then to keep morphing banes and not forget injects. If you do that.. and you have the crawlers needed, you will be okay I think.
If it really comes down to it and he kills your 3rd, you will still be ahead in drones (assuming you were behind in lings) and the cost ineffectiveness of running banes forward into crawlers & queens, along with your roach transition & him being stuck with leftover banes & lings, should mean you are ahead of him anyway (both of you being on 2 base). The 3rd cost 350 minerals, but 20 banes cost 500/500. The earlier 2nd gas, lesser drone count, combined with morphing those extra banes are gona put him economically quite a bit behind. The crawlers do cost ~300-450 but depending on how many lings you have compared to him, you may not even need them.
The more banes he is morphing, the more lings he's gona need to defend them, and the less lings you morphed beforehand the more drones you have on him.
In my experience money tends to accumulate during these surprise ling bane busts. Not because of bad macro either. Just larva being spent on lings & banes, & not much else, isn't the most efficient use of resources. So I think you could even build a 2nd gas reactively if he comes at this timing, to begin evening out the bane numbers & also provide cash for roaches. So with that if your crawlers & lings & queens hold off the first wave, the 2nd wave wont be any disadvantage.
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i use the 2 gas delayed bust pretty often, as it is quite efective and requires not that high amount of micro (i am a working guy, not time to play that much). Also it is hard to not do any damage using 10+ banelings  , so you can transition out most of the time. The real downside is your delayed tec as the banes suck up all your gas. So if your oppenent can fend it off even with hard losses you still lose frequently because of being behind in upgrades/infestors/muta tec afterwards. So its kind of all-in tec-wise.
Its imho actually wrong to drone up even after inflicting heavy damage, you got a better chance at killing him directly before his tech kicks in. So yes: pretty all in, but sweet 
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On September 18 2012 04:32 osiris17 wrote:
the 1 gas, 28 food version baneling bust has been around for 2 years, maybe longer. It's the oldest, most standard baneling attack. I never have a problem stopping it, and I end up 10 drones ahead or sometimes more.
You're quite right in that it's a pretty ortodox baneling all-in, however due to the 17 gas 17 pool opening you hit a very good timing because you'll be 50~ gas ahead of the normal zvz openers. But yeah, you're right in that its pretty simple to stop if you know how to do it and get a good read with your initial lings, but it can be quite deadly vs greedy zergs trying to cut corners. In my opinion it's a good, refined all-in to have in your arsenal to punish greedy zergs in a boX.
Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler...
I think you fail to recognize the pure power the amount of banelings this 2 gas verson brings. First off, it is very hard to detect. Only way would be to get lings inside the main at the perfect timng, spotting the second gas being taken with no evos, warren or lair. However, lings in the main should easily be denied by a queen/ling wall-off at the ramp, so most times, due to the high number of drones at the natural, this will just look like a standard (greedy) zvz build that could transition into anything. Because of this, you'll have no reason to get out earlier roaches than normal or invest in any defense at all really, and this is one of the reasons this build is so hard to stop.
If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines.
One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent.
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It's a cool build, but the way banelings work the defender can always defend if he has about half the banes of the attacker (almost always I'd say). Personally i tried doing similar busts based off a 15gas/pool build, but even with earlier speed than my opponent I've seldom managed to inflict game winning damage.
The spacing of banes is probably the most important part, but given that you have to cross ramps, as long as your opponent spaces his own banes (granted something where many people make mistakes) he should be able to hold it. He has 2+ queens and a spine ready to defend if he doesn't scout at all, but if he scouts something and has 12 lings to morph into banes the attack will be a waste of ressource imho.
The earlier attack is pretty much a throwback to the earlier days of Sc2, it sounds exactly the same as the 2 base baneling build we had back then. It's still pretty strong, but the counter is pretty known by now.
Oh btw: one way to pretty much autoloose with this build is if he ramp blocks with 2 queens in time to save all his natural drones (on some maps problematic). If he has 2 queens on a ramp, 1 spine and 6 banes of his own you won't be able to kill much of anything.
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On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:
One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly.
Get ahold of yourself man!
On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Show nested quote +Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent.
I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days.
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Wouldn't the first option work against terran if you take a second gas and bust his wall?
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On September 18 2012 05:20 osiris17 wrote:One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly. Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent. I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days.
Feel free to check out my replays, even though the selection is quite limited (I'm lazy when it comes to saving my replays, I'll try to upload some more in the future), you could check out the one vs SortOf for reference vs a high level player.
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On September 18 2012 05:20 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:
One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly. Get ahold of yourself man! Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent. I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days.
You can't assume your always going to be able to scout / defend against this attack as easily as you proclaim. I don't care how good your crisis management is. Chances are you will always have less banes then your opponent while defending and i want to see you defend against 10 waves of paired banes plus lings. I agree it can be defended well if you prepare and execute properly but ling bane micro is very difficult with little to no room for error.
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The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact.
The second build I saw Ret do on stream a lot, and that seemed really strong. Thanks for typing it out.
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On September 18 2012 06:55 Indrium wrote:
The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact.
It's true, everyone notes the "defenders' advantage," but not a lot of people talk about the "attackers' advantage." As the attacker, you can have a precise time where you switch to droning, and you can force your opponent to make decisions in the dark.
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On September 18 2012 11:37 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:55 Indrium wrote:
The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact. It's true, everyone notes the "defenders' advantage," but not a lot of people talk about the "attackers' advantage." As the attacker, you can have a precise time where you switch to droning, and you can force your opponent to make decisions in the dark.
Yes but their is a flaw in that to. I have done it many times personally when a player does some high aggression verse me, does a ton of economic damage and then drones and then dies to my counter since I kept making units and he finished a round of drones and thus has no larva to make units to defend when he is super far ahead economically.
This is something I face playing GM's on the NA server.
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On September 18 2012 11:40 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:37 TangSC wrote:On September 18 2012 06:55 Indrium wrote:
The first build I've seen Nerchio do a lot. It's not that easily defended, and Nerchio has good micro and usually ends up at least even. It's not just about the direct damage, there's indirect damage done as well by throwing off your opponent's build and (hopefully) forcing them to overreact. It's true, everyone notes the "defenders' advantage," but not a lot of people talk about the "attackers' advantage." As the attacker, you can have a precise time where you switch to droning, and you can force your opponent to make decisions in the dark. Yes but their is a flaw in that to. I have done it many times personally when a player does some high aggression verse me, does a ton of economic damage and then drones and then dies to my counter since I kept making units and he finished a round of drones and thus has no larva to make units to defend when he is super far ahead economically. This is something I face playing GM's on the NA server.
That's true, that happens. I've fallen way behind to timing attacks and decided to counter all-in asap and won. The thing is with this style, if you've done a ton of economic damage, you're not going to transition - you continue the onslaught and constantly reinforce knowing he can't possible defend with his diminished economy. If someone does a ton of economic damage with his Zergling/Baneling then backs off, I'd say that's a mistake in decision making.
What I meant by attackers' advantage is if you're NOT doing critical damage to end the game, you can have a clear idea of when you're going to transition whereas your opponent will not know. Of course then you have to gauge whether your opponent is going to counter-attack so you don't die to an all-in
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Norway839 Posts
The hæssebust is a great response to 2-base muta. See 4 gas? Go for the hæssebust!
I'm so happy to see this beautiful piece of Norwegian SC2 culture displayed to the public!
Back in the days I used to hæsse with as much as 3 geysers! Those were the days ))
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Lmao 3 Geyser hæsse, now that's baneling aggression!
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i believe its called Targa banes
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I haven't watched many Targa games, but it would not surprise me at all to find that he is among those who have used this style most effectively.
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Yeah this is a build Targa has been using. I've also used it - as a Diamond zerg taking games off unsuspecting GM's and players loads better than I. Like any all in, if you catch them unprepared - its an easy win. Scout the three gas no Lair - evo wall and a few spines hold this all in pretty easy.
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On September 19 2012 03:16 ChadMann wrote:
Yeah this is a build Targa has been using. I've also used it - as a Diamond zerg taking games off unsuspecting GM's and players loads better than I. Like any all in, if you catch them unprepared - its an easy win. Scout the three gas no Lair - evo wall and a few spines hold this all in pretty easy.
It's not that easy to scout the gas and lair timings, though. This style gets Zergling speed as early as possible for a hatch-first opening. Speedlings + Queens make it possible to deny scouting of overlords and zerglings.
Also, if your opponent opens with any lower-economy form of Speedling or Baneling aggression, he'll be hard-pressed to hold off the counter-attack.
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Glad to see TargA banes getting the recognition it deserves as a legitimate strategy for high level ZvZ. Thank you for writing up about his build.
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This build is also known as the TargA or Norwegian Bane Train.
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On September 18 2012 06:33 lodeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:20 osiris17 wrote:On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:
One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly. Get ahold of yourself man! On September 18 2012 05:12 CheesyJunk wrote:Can you pinpoint any reactionary scenarios where the 2 gas variant is preferred (such as against very fast 3rd)?
Against a 2 base play you will be behind unless the opponent sucks. But many people suck at defending extended attacks from lings & banes, and most of the success you may have with this strategy is attributed to that.
I havent faced the 2 gas variant with a fast 3rd. They'll have less banes for a certain period before warren, so they will need a crawler... If you've gone for a fast third and dont have roaches when the initial bust hits, you're DEAD. A mere crawler won't help you at all, as you will have maybe 6-8-ish defensive banelings yourself facing 20+ banelings lined up in pairs, as well as a huge force of zerglings ready to do runbys/snipe queens if your own banelings gets out of position. Due to the way the pairing and rallying is executed, its the defender that has to perform the baneling micro, not the attacker, who then can focus on his lings while his banelings are on move command into the mineral lines. One, two or maybe even three spines will not be enough to hold this; it doesn't require more than 4 banes to kill a spine, and if you can get a few of your opponent banes, lings or morphing spines as well, it shouldnt really be much of a question for the attacker to trade 4 of his 20+ banelings for your only stantionairy defense. Then, with the gas advantage the attacker should be able to keep up the attack and in the end break the opponent. I believe that you will be dead. But I am good at handling crisis scenarios. If anyone wishes to know how to handle this situation, read my post. The way you describe events in your post, it's clear you don't understand how this would play out. I don't know how this opponent is getting 20 banelings and a metric ton of lings without you noticing. I suggest you work on scouting. If you wish to sacrifice your fast 3rd build out of fear / inability to react defensively, that's your perogative. The ZvZ macro fast 3rd can work, it just takes practice and planning. I would try this and post a replay on here but I don't have access to a personal computer currently. But I'll remember this thread, and next time I run into it, I will post a replay on here. Or one of you can PM me and we can get a game setup in a few days. You can't assume your always going to be able to scout / defend against this attack as easily as you proclaim. I don't care how good your crisis management is. Chances are you will always have less banes then your opponent while defending and i want to see you defend against 10 waves of paired banes plus lings. I agree it can be defended well if you prepare and execute properly but ling bane micro is very difficult with little to no room for error.
Right now people are reacting poorly to this strategy. It takes them by surprise, and that cannot be underestimated. The more common it becomes, the less it will work.
And yes, I do think I can always scout it. If they have built 20 zerglings for banelings, and then additional zerglings in order to defend those banelings, they have built 30 or more zerglings. I think scouting the drone count and noticing they don't have their gas or 15 drones is going to be a pretty solid indication.
If their natural is saturated and they have both gas taken (like they should if teching), then it's a confirmation against this build.
If really necessary, scout the natural at a certain timing to check the units popping off it.
This build hasnt been integrated into the metagame yet... I don't think it will last. I'd rather practice honing my defenses against this than surprising people with it.
The first build is so old and dealt with. It punishes greed sometimes, I guess. Open with a crawler and you can defend it even with greed.
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Thread should really be called "Targa banes".
Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless.
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On September 19 2012 22:25 ggMufasa wrote:
Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless.
Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust.
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On September 20 2012 09:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 22:25 ggMufasa wrote:
Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless. Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust.
Depends on the amount of roaches, if he's trying to take a 3rd and has only made 4-6 roaches for defence that shouldn't be a problem.
It's probably when he's also going for an all in where he has 10+ roaches where you'll have trouble busting... but then ofc once you scout that many roaches you just through down a few spines at home and with the amount of lings you have you can just use them for counter attacks to delay the push.
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In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins. It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering.
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This build was invented by Targa and is called 'Targa Banes'
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On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins. It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering.
...lol.
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On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins.
Not necessarily, I think that would depend on the timing of the Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-in. If your opponents go for too low a drone count, I think this style can hold off the all-in with an advantage. If they go for too many drones, I think the bust hits before they get a sufficient amount of roaches to defend. There's also the opportunity to win unorthodox games with good decision making (ie. counter-attacking.)
On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering.
In some ways I can see how you'd say it's a coin flip build (against some roaches builds you'll be shut down completely), but it can be used reactively at times too against fast Mutalisk styles. You also can't say it's only good for low league laddering, because it has been consistently used by high-level ZvZ players.
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On September 21 2012 10:55 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins. Not necessarily, I think that would depend on the timing of the Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-in. If your opponents go for too low a drone count, I think this style can hold off the all-in with an advantage. If they go for too many drones, I think the bust hits before they get a sufficient amount of roaches to defend. There's also the opportunity to win unorthodox games with good decision making (ie. counter-attacking.) Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering. In some ways I can see how you'd say it's a coin flip build (against some roaches builds you'll be shut down completely), but it can be used reactively at times too against fast Mutalisk styles. You also can't say it's only good for low league laddering, because it has been consistently used by high-level ZvZ players.
That's why I said it's good in tournaments for coin flips. Even reactively used against lair builds it's a coinflip, especially if you don't know exactly what their lair is for. I recognize that high level players use this, but some pros also use 10 pool speedling or baneling all-ins in ZvZ too and those are undeniably coin flip builds too.
The point about "low league laddering" was that while this is a coin flip build for tournaments, in low league play it's likely to work a majority of the time.
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On September 21 2012 14:54 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:55 TangSC wrote:On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
In my experience, this is very bad against Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-ins. Not necessarily, I think that would depend on the timing of the Roach/Ling or Roach/Bane all-in. If your opponents go for too low a drone count, I think this style can hold off the all-in with an advantage. If they go for too many drones, I think the bust hits before they get a sufficient amount of roaches to defend. There's also the opportunity to win unorthodox games with good decision making (ie. counter-attacking.) On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:It's a strong build, but both defendable and vulnerable to other styles. Good for tournament coin flip wins or low league laddering. In some ways I can see how you'd say it's a coin flip build (against some roaches builds you'll be shut down completely), but it can be used reactively at times too against fast Mutalisk styles. You also can't say it's only good for low league laddering, because it has been consistently used by high-level ZvZ players. That's why I said it's good in tournaments for coin flips. Even reactively used against lair builds it's a coinflip, especially if you don't know exactly what their lair is for.
In that sense, couldn't you argue that all builds are essentially coin flips? I don't think using this build against a fast 4-gas player would net only a 50% win/loss ratio, it would be much higher.
On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:I recognize that high level players use this, but some pros also use 10 pool speedling or baneling all-ins in ZvZ too and those are undeniably coin flip builds too.
There's a big difference between 1base builds that aims for 10-15 drones and 2base builds that aim for 24-38 drones. Those earlier forms of aggression are more of a commitment, and they're usually "blind" (not used in response to your opponent's build.)
On September 20 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:The point about "low league laddering" was that while this is a coin flip build for tournaments, in low league play it's likely to work a majority of the time.
I understand what you mean, I think I just dislike the term "coin-flip" because it's kind of negative and implies that either you win or you lose, when I think we can all agree that ZvZ is much more unpredictable than that because there are a lot of games that I would consider "grey areas," where it comes down to execution and decision-making. I also don't know whether this build is more or less likely to work in the lower leagues, it seems like speculation...you may very well be right, I'd just need to hear your reasoning. I would personally argue that this build is better for higher-level players who can manage the injects/Zergling production while properly morphing in Banelings 2 at a time, with the experience to make the optimal decisions with the Banelings.
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On September 20 2012 09:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 22:25 ggMufasa wrote:
Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless. Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust.
When I do the build - if I scout roaches I focus them with the banes if there are 4ish Roaches, any more and I avoid the roaches and go straight for the run by to kill drones, while I put down my own Roach Warren and a spine or two, get Lair and play defensive. Usually I'd die if I didn't get some good drone hits, which is easy to do.
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On September 23 2012 17:49 ChadMann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 09:04 TangSC wrote:On September 19 2012 22:25 ggMufasa wrote:
Build is great vs muta players or players that neglect roaches, and even if they do have them you'll sometimes just have such overwhelming numbers that it can just kill your opponent regardless. Definitely! Yeah I'm wondering if you scout roaches after building lings whether you should abandon the bust. When I do the build - if I scout roaches I focus them with the banes if there are 4ish Roaches, any more and I avoid the roaches and go straight for the run by to kill drones, while I put down my own Roach Warren and a spine or two, get Lair and play defensive. Usually I'd die if I didn't get some good drone hits, which is easy to do.
Ok, so if you scouted roaches you'd still put on the initial pressure with the Zergling/Baneling mainly with the goal of killing workers, so that you can transition to roaches yourself with a worker advantage. I think this sounds more solid than continuing to reinforce Ling/Baneling, since they're probably going to build at least 6-8 roaches when you first engage.
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TargA top 4 Dreamhack Valencia. I think it's time to change this strategy to the proper name of TargA banes.
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On September 24 2012 11:18 TheCSerps wrote:
TargA top 4 Dreamhack Valencia. I think it's time to change this strategy to the proper name of TargA banes.
Haha you're not the first to say so, but I believe the term "Hæssebust" refers to a style popularized by Norwegian players, one of which is TargA. I think it's more symbolic of Norwegian SC2 culture, not just one player's prowess.
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Okay, this build is insanely greedy. What do you do if...they attack you?
To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build.
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On October 05 2012 23:44 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Okay, this build is insanely greedy. What do you do if...they attack you?
To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build.
Haha no, it's a good question! You wouldn't drone this high if your opponent goes for a 4min speedling expand (14gas/14pool 20 Hatchery). Most of those all-ins hit around 5:30-6:00, and you'd need a spine at your expansion, Zerglings, and probably a third Queen to defend. The greedier version of this build assume your opponent has gone hatch first (Earliest timings after hatch first are approximately 6-6:30).
The only earlier versions are things like 10-11pool/gas. Against these builds, you just have to scout no expansion and spam lings like crazy. Defend as much as possible with your queens/lings/drones in as narrow a spot as you can. Just have to make defensive use of your ramp, and cut into his Ling count as much as possible - your production will be better than his, just have to live past those first 2 waves.
I hope this answers your question?
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On October 05 2012 23:44 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Okay, this build is insanely greedy. What do you do if...they attack you?
To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build.
You play this build the same way you would play any defensive macro build until you add on the extra gases and start pumping lings. You get defensive banes, if hes attacking you; you respond the same way you would with any build. As long as you defend well it just resets the game with both of you slightly behind so your attack hits slightly later.
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On October 06 2012 06:44 aLtNXZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 23:44 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Okay, this build is insanely greedy. What do you do if...they attack you?
To sound less obnoxious, how do you execute/adjust this build order if you're being attacked? 5 min or so speedling attacks are deadly vs this build. You play this build the same way you would play any defensive macro build until you add on the extra gases and start pumping lings. You get defensive banes, if hes attacking you; you respond the same way you would with any build. As long as you defend well it just resets the game with both of you slightly behind so your attack hits slightly later.
Yeah actually one of the stream videos covers the defensive banelings, you almost always build 2 on your ramp.
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Perhaps one of the coolest pictures (OP) I have ever seen.
Where do you find these tang?!
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I think its quite hard to hold 14/14 Ling/Bling AllIn with this build, since your pool is very late?
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On October 07 2012 06:05 DarkZonk wrote:
I think its quite hard to hold 14/14 Ling/Bling AllIn with this build, since your pool is very late?
15 hatch can hold 14/14 ling baneling all-in.
As with every single build, you have to see your opponents expanion timing and react. In the case of a speedling expand, especially if the hatch goes down late or not at all, save energy on one or both of your queens, block your ramp, start a spinecrawler, and seriously consider going baneling nest before speed.
I think MrLlama's thread has a video of this defense.
This is true for basically every zvz build, so if tang never covered the specifics of this, it was implied.
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On October 07 2012 06:05 DarkZonk wrote:
I think its quite hard to hold 14/14 Ling/Bling AllIn with this build, since your pool is very late?
No.
The only time where you could possibly lose to a 14/14 ling/bling all in is if you open 15 pool 16 hatch 17 gas and go speed first (or skip the spine in your natural) is if you don't evacuate your natural and block the ramp with your queens + a transfuse.
They can always be defended with spine/queen/line with minimal drone losses. By the time he has enough banes to 1-shot your spine, you'll have your own banes, and then he can't attack you or else he'll lose.
There's a reason you never see ling/bling all ins in pro games, and I don't even face them anymore on ladder because they're so weak.
I did die once to an 11/11 ling/bling bust because I wasn't ready;gotta get a really fast spine etc. But generally it's a bad strategy that only works against the greediest of builds.
Edit: I got ninja'd by Oboeman, fortunately we said almost the exact same thing
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Ahaha this build is hilarious, some of the reactions I get are hilarious.
One guy skipped bane tech and just went pure roach so I just went pure speedling and won (after using banes on spines and roach clumps).
One guy was going 2 base muta, saw me morph 20 banes, shit his pants and morphed 40 LOL. I just retreated and went double evo ling/infestor and won.
IMO this isn't all-in, as long as you force a lot of gas out of your opponent (even if you don't do direct damage). I don't know the best transition out of this...probably roach/infestor because you'll have a ton of gas banked. Definitely best to grab your third + drone up behind it if you realize you won't win.
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thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit.
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On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit.
It DOES improve them because learning 1-2 all-in builds for each match-up is a massive factor towards success in Bo3/5/7 series. Being adaptable is not a bad thing.
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On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit.
Don't be foolish. All-ins and aggressive play styles are part of SC2. You can be an ostrich and pretend they don't exist or you can execute them crisply and cleanly as a fun alternative to macro play. The beauty of SC is its infinite depth. Why would you want to limit yourself to only macro?
This is coming from a (bad) masters zerg who rarely all-ins. I still love and respect the fact that I have to be wary of it.
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On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit.
I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks.
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On October 09 2012 21:43 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks.
I'd like to add on to this that people always assume "macro play" is the only acceptable way to play. I completely disagree, and if someone starts off with heavy aggression, they will become good at heavy aggression. There's nothing wrong with that.
The wonderful thing about starcraft is the diversity of builds. Sure, you can go 30 minute broodlord infestor each game, but people are going to have a shit ton of practice against that, and it's harder to do anything different in a macro game. Conversely, you could learn 15 different timing attacks and just fuck with people you play simply because they have minimal practice vs that style.
We're supposed to be swarmy anyway. Hard to be swarmy with only 100 supply in attacking units versus 150 supply attack units of other races.
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On October 13 2012 23:27 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 21:43 TangSC wrote:On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks. I'd like to add on to this that people always assume "macro play" is the only acceptable way to play. I completely disagree, and if someone starts off with heavy aggression, they will become good at heavy aggression. There's nothing wrong with that.
Exactly, I never take anything away from macro styles, obviously it's a strong way to play, but it shouldn't be frowned upon to be aggressive or even all-in.
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I can't wait to try the two gas version, I love delayed busts like this!
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On October 16 2012 00:58 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 23:27 InfCereal wrote:On October 09 2012 21:43 TangSC wrote:On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks. I'd like to add on to this that people always assume "macro play" is the only acceptable way to play. I completely disagree, and if someone starts off with heavy aggression, they will become good at heavy aggression. There's nothing wrong with that. Exactly, I never take anything away from macro styles, obviously it's a strong way to play, but it shouldn't be frowned upon to be aggressive or even all-in.
Considering one of the races is practically designed for it, it's surprising that it's frowned upon.
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On October 16 2012 03:37 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 00:58 TangSC wrote:On October 13 2012 23:27 InfCereal wrote:On October 09 2012 21:43 TangSC wrote:On October 08 2012 01:14 RustySpork wrote:
thanks for putting the time into making the guide but the thing is that teaching people to play in this 'hyper aggressive style' (AKA all-in style) does not teach people to get better and in fact over time makes them worse. Please in future make guides that dont involve just all-inning and hoping your opponent hasnt got x unit. I'm sorry but I disagree 100% with the notion that all-ins (or to be more accurate, timing attacks) don't teach people to get better. It is my sincere belief that newer players benefit more from learning 1-2 base styles, which will hone their micro, multitasking, and decision-making, as opposed to 3-4base styles that rely on strict timings and scout/response to be effective. You have to crawl before you can walk, and sure you could make the argument "well players need to learn those timings and how to scout/respond to their opponent if they want to improve." Yes, that's true, but not before first developing a satisfactory level of multitasking and basic mechanics, and there is absolutely no evidence to support players improve faster if they start with macro-builds as opposed to starting with timing attacks. I'd like to add on to this that people always assume "macro play" is the only acceptable way to play. I completely disagree, and if someone starts off with heavy aggression, they will become good at heavy aggression. There's nothing wrong with that. Exactly, I never take anything away from macro styles, obviously it's a strong way to play, but it shouldn't be frowned upon to be aggressive or even all-in. Considering one of the races is practically designed for it, it's surprising that it's frowned upon.
Do you mean Toss or Terran?
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Hows about a not so greedy and allinish variation of the build? I like to open 15hatch with drone scout or pool into hatch with gas around 3minute mark. The rest is pretty much the same regards the opening. I also get a spine with it. But after spending my first double inject fully into zerglings (around 24lings) i use my next inject for drones to get all four geysirs, a gas and lair. After that double inject of drones youre fully saturated and you can continue your pressure. If he holds and overreacts hes screwed, if he builds too less defends he dies. Its pretty effective, and im playing vs high masters and gms. Furthermore you can savely get your third while youre containing him on 2 bases, which gives you a nice little lead even without dealing huge amounts of damage with your bust.
I like to follow it up with 7-8 mutas after lair to keep mapcontrol.
Btw, the difference is that you have around 6 Banelings (4 -> Lair, 2 -> delayed first Gas) and some lings (due to your double inject on drones after building your lings) less compared to the other delayed bust.
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On October 20 2012 01:19 doggy wrote:
Hows about a not so greedy and allinish variation of the build? I like to open 15hatch with drone scout or pool into hatch with gas around 3minute mark. The rest is pretty much the same regards the opening. I also get a spine with it. But after spending my first double inject fully into zerglings (around 24lings) i use my next inject for drones to get all four geysirs, a gas and lair. After that double inject of drones youre fully saturated and you can continue your pressure. If he holds and overreacts hes screwed, if he builds too less defends he dies. Its pretty effective, and im playing vs high masters and gms. Furthermore you can savely get your third while youre containing him on 2 bases, which gives you a nice little lead even without dealing huge amounts of damage with your bust.
I like to follow it up with 7-8 mutas after lair to keep mapcontrol.
Btw, the difference is that you have around 6 Banelings (4 -> Lair, 2 -> delayed first Gas) and some lings (due to your double inject on drones after building your lings) less compared to the other delayed bust.
Those are definitely viable options, and there are a lot of ways to put on "lighter" baneling pressure on two bases.
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yes, i really feel like you should go for at least a light variation of ling bling in early-midgame zvz. it helps you dealing with allins a lot better, furthermore you force your opponent into being honest about their tech
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On October 25 2012 00:03 doggy wrote:
yes, i really feel like you should go for at least a light variation of ling bling in early-midgame zvz. it helps you dealing with allins a lot better, furthermore you force your opponent into being honest about their tech
That's definitely a style of early/mid game that a lot of top pros utilize, so I would agree - but it is very different from the Hæsse.
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EPT
