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United States8476 Posts
Introduction:
In my opinion, the best way to learn to play this game is by learning one build versus each race and practicing it until you get decently solid with it. In addition, these builds shouldn’t rely on one brilliant “miracle” attack. Although these timing attacks or allins will get you a lot of free wins at lower levels, you won’t actually improve in the basics of the game such as macro, scouting, and economy management, so eventually you’ll hit a plateau where your attacks are more likely defended than not. With a macro style build, you can learn all the branches of the build and improve on your basic RTS skills. When you begin to learn other builds, your experience and these skills you’ve learned will transfer to those builds as well.
In the protoss help-me forum, every few questions is someone asking for such good, solid builds versus each race. While I’m glad to answer, it gets kinda repetitive posting the same response each time. The following builds/openings are all considered “safe” in that if you play them correctly, you are guaranteed to get you into the mid game. There are no builds from the opposing race which results in a build order win, and these builds allow ample room to deviate and react to your opponents’ builds.
PvT
2 gate robo
This is the original “safe” build for PvT. You get an observer fast and respond accordingly to what your opponent is doing. Its weaknesses include lack of early pressure and a slightly weaker economy that some other builds may provide. This is the quintessential good starting build to learn with, as you don’t have to make as many reads based on experience with the essentially free maphack the observer gives you.
1 gate fe
This is a slightly more advanced build that can give you a better economy leading up to the midgame. The biggest problem for this build is that you need to make some early game reads to properly respond to certain openings from your opponent. Because of this, I recommend you learn it after you master the 2 gate robo build.
PvZ
3 gate expand
This build is the first “standard” build of PvZ. It works on every map, and gets a healthy amount of units before expanding. After your expansion gets up safely, you have a wide variety of options open to you. These include but are not limited to hallucination scouting, 3-5 gate pushes, stargate pressure, fast robotics, or blink.
2 gate stargate
This build is not recommended much, because it’s not as “standard” as a 3 gate expand, but I would say it’s the 2nd most popular build that’s not forge fe. And according to oGsMC, it is the safest PvZ opener, and I agree with him. This build lets you get up an expansion even more safely than a 3 gate expand, as it shuts down any 2 base roach ling allins more easily. In addition, you get early game map control and can apply a little pressure.
Forge fast expand
Although this build is not viable on all maps, it is actually the best opening possible on a majority of maps. I do not recommend this as a first build for players, as the order of buildings is different for every map and versus every zerg opening you scout, so it can be confusing for newer players. However, I do recommend every single protoss player eventually learn this opening, as it is a necessity to not fall behind on certain maps.
PvP
2 Gate 3 Stalker Rush
Besides proxy gates and cannon rushes, pretty much the only early game threat in PvP is the 4 gate. Thus, all openings anyone can recommend will revolve around defending a 4 gate. This particular opening is very standard and doesn't require the level of execution as say a 1 gate defense would. Once you are comfortable with PvP and this opening, you can move onto other anti 4-gate builds such as those outlined here in the compilation of anti 4-gate builds guide.
Note: Changed my PvP recommendation from Geiko's 3 gate to 3 stalker rush
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Thank you very much! I have been trying to learn Protoss and this is nice to see. I have been trying a 3gate expand in PvT also- do you think this is too unsafe to put on the list?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 19 2011 04:02 monitor wrote:
Thank you very much! I have been trying to learn Protoss and this is nice to see. I have been trying a 3gate expand in PvT also- do you think this is too unsafe to put on the list?
The only problem is that it's close to a build order loss versus the 1-1-1 marine tank banshee push. Also, you fall too far behind a gasless expand.
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I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener.
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I don't think there is a single safe PvT or PvP build. PvZ certainly does though. Having said that, you might want to include MC's defensive 3 gate for PvP and defensive 4 gate as well.
On September 19 2011 04:05 crocodile wrote:
I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener.
I really think it depends on how greedy you are with the voidray and how much scouting you do with your penix. If you send the voidray straight to the 3rd and use phoenixes to kill the defending queens and don't scout, then I think it is unsafe. But scouting a 2 base Zerg, you can easily react with more gateways and cannons, get blink/robo and win.
Also, 2 hatch hydra is definitely a blind all in. It is not possible to go 'i see stargate, gonna go all in with hydras'
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Mc doing 3 gate expand FPVOD
+ Show Spoiler +
Mc doing 1 gate Fe vs Puma on XelNaga Caverns. This was the game where he came close to holding the 1-1-1.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29EGPuma_vs_%28P%29oGsMC__sc2rep_com_20110822/12733
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Ive been toying with the idea of 3 gate expanding but cutting units if i scout gassless expand and dropping full chronoboost on probes. I think that having production but skewing in favor of economy isn't something entirely explored in the early game.
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On September 19 2011 04:07 Micket wrote:I don't think there is a single safe PvT or PvP build. PvZ certainly does though. Having said that, you might want to include MC's defensive 3 gate for PvP and defensive 4 gate as well. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 04:05 crocodile wrote:
I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener. I really think it depends on how greedy you are with the voidray and how much scouting you do with your penix. If you send the voidray straight to the 3rd and use phoenixes to kill the defending queens and don't scout, then I think it is unsafe. But scouting a 2 base Zerg, you can easily react with more gateways and cannons, get blink/robo and win. Also, 2 hatch hydra is definitely a blind all in. It is not possible to go 'i see stargate, gonna go all in with hydras'
2 Hatch hydra is not a blind allin. If you get your lair at a standard timing instead of delaying it like many zergs do for a quick third, you can reactively make 8 hydras and a creep highway and rally lings for an easy win vs 2g Stargate. I don't think 2g Stargate provides the proper scouting to see this coming in time.
2g stargate should probably die to destinys ling infestor timing attack as well, although I've never tested it.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:19 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 04:07 Micket wrote:I don't think there is a single safe PvT or PvP build. PvZ certainly does though. Having said that, you might want to include MC's defensive 3 gate for PvP and defensive 4 gate as well. On September 19 2011 04:05 crocodile wrote:
I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener. I really think it depends on how greedy you are with the voidray and how much scouting you do with your penix. If you send the voidray straight to the 3rd and use phoenixes to kill the defending queens and don't scout, then I think it is unsafe. But scouting a 2 base Zerg, you can easily react with more gateways and cannons, get blink/robo and win. Also, 2 hatch hydra is definitely a blind all in. It is not possible to go 'i see stargate, gonna go all in with hydras' 2 Hatch hydra is not a blind allin. If you get your lair at a standard timing instead of delaying it like many zergs do for a quick third, you can reactively make 8 hydras and a creep highway and rally lings for an easy win vs 2g Stargate. I don't think 2g Stargate provides the proper scouting to see this coming in time. 2g stargate should probably die to destinys ling infestor timing attack as well, although I've never tested it.
I highly disagree. With proper scouting with air units, cannons, and a collosi switch, you can easily fend off either of these timing attacks.
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I don't see how 2 base Hydra or the Destiny timing could go unscouted... Your Stargate goes down around 4:20-4:25 and your Void Ray is out putting on pressure within the next 2 minutes with Phoenixes on the way. Unless you do a cheesy-fast Lair the means that you have another 1-2 minutes of harrassing+scouting to see the attack coming, so plenty of timing to expand and cannon up vs Hydras. The Ling Timing takes forever and a Colossus is easy to get out, and your phoenixes force Burrow to be used which slows it down further.
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All I'm saying is that I have never lost in master league to 1 base Stargate. Hydra ling kills it every time. If you want to 1v1 to prove this I'd be happy to do so and we can put the results here. Maybe all the protoss I've been playing are just bad (a strong possibility) so i'm quite curious.. msg me crocodile.703
Also, I'd love to hear the definition of a 'cheesy' lair timing.
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On September 19 2011 04:36 CaptainHaz wrote:
Ive been toying with the idea of 3 gate expanding but cutting units if i scout gassless expand and dropping full chronoboost on probes. I think that having production but skewing in favor of economy isn't something entirely explored in the early game.
I don't think that it would matter, you're still delaying your nexus too much and using a couple extra chronos on probes would not change that.
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Great idea monk.
This is going to be linked in the SQSA and Protoss help thread like two times per page now :p
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On September 20 2011 00:57 crocodile wrote:
All I'm saying is that I have never lost in master league to 1 base Stargate. Hydra ling kills it every time. If you want to 1v1 to prove this I'd be happy to do so and we can put the results here. Maybe all the protoss I've been playing are just bad (a strong possibility) so i'm quite curious.. msg me crocodile.703
Also, I'd love to hear the definition of a 'cheesy' lair timing.
Cheesy lair timing is either before ling speed or getting lair straight after speed and not taking drones off gas.
And MC's stargate build is NOT 1 base. It is a 1 gate expand into 2 gate stargate which is awesome vs most all in cheeses.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:57 crocodile wrote:
All I'm saying is that I have never lost in master league to 1 base Stargate. Hydra ling kills it every time. If you want to 1v1 to prove this I'd be happy to do so and we can put the results here. Maybe all the protoss I've been playing are just bad (a strong possibility) so i'm quite curious.. msg me crocodile.703
Also, I'd love to hear the definition of a 'cheesy' lair timing.
It's a stargate expand, not 1 base stargate. It's very common at high levels, and yes the protoss you've been playing are probably just bad.
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On September 20 2011 01:09 JLew wrote:
I don't think that it would matter, you're still delaying your nexus too much and using a couple extra chronos on probes would not change that.
You're delaying it by a minute or so, and I don't agree that the chronoboost compensation on probes wouldn't make up for having the production and nexus out relatively quickly. It is similar to huk's 20 nexus into 3 gate pressue, save the reverse ordering in building and reactivity based on scouting intel.
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Thank you very much for this! I always feel lost and clueless whenever I play, because in addition to not being able to play very often, I'm also not sure what I should do, so this helps a great deal. When you have a chance, can you edit the OP with links to some replays or VODs?
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Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting.
NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand.
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EPT
