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PvZ
3 gate expand
This build is the first “standard” build of PvZ. It works on every map, and gets a healthy amount of units before expanding. After your expansion gets up safely, you have a wide variety of options open to you. These include but are not limited to hallucination scouting, 3-5 gate pushes, stargate pressure, fast robotics, or blink.
2 gate stargate
This build is not recommended much, because it’s not as “standard” as a 3 gate expand, but I would say it’s the 2nd most popular build that’s not forge fe. And according to oGsMC, it is the safest PvZ opener, and I agree with him. This build lets you get up an expansion even more safely than a 3 gate expand, as it shuts down any 2 base roach ling allins more easily. In addition, you get early game map control and can apply a little pressure.
You make it sound like 2 gate stargate is safer than 3 gate sentry against roach/ling all-ins. Could you provide some replay/Pro vod examples where roach/ling all-ins worked against 3 gate sentry expand? I can't imagine any all-in killing 3 gate sentry expand, I always figured it was the safest build for Toss to do in terms of dealing with all-ins while playing blindly (why you would play blind and not scout I don't know, but just saying).
Anyways, I wanted to ask you, since you are posting about safe builds, what are some unsafe builds?
I was just wondering what your thoughts were on any sort of 'unsafe' P play, and what a Zerg like me could do to solidly exploit it.
Also, I'd love your thoughts on a Zerg taking a fast third vs 3 gate sentry expand, such as how can zerg hold it best, what are Toss' options to pressure it (ie do they add gateways and push, or just push with the 3 gates? what time is toss trying to push by, etc). Recently I've been going fast third vs 1/3g expands (35ish third and roach warren, pump pure units at 40 supply vs 1 gate expand and 45 supply vs 3 gate expand as it seems 1 gate expand hits earlier and harder, if that makes sense, i dont know, i'm still working it out but i find this has been working really well).
Yes, I'm aware of the whole "ffe vs 3 gate" argument, and "omg zerg is so far behind 2 base lair vs 2 base P" but I'm not getting into that here (i already have my thoughts on the matter, anyways i think you agree with me on it anyways).
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I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal.
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United States8477 Posts
On February 02 2012 07:15 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +PvZ
3 gate expand
This build is the first “standard” build of PvZ. It works on every map, and gets a healthy amount of units before expanding. After your expansion gets up safely, you have a wide variety of options open to you. These include but are not limited to hallucination scouting, 3-5 gate pushes, stargate pressure, fast robotics, or blink.
2 gate stargate
This build is not recommended much, because it’s not as “standard” as a 3 gate expand, but I would say it’s the 2nd most popular build that’s not forge fe. And according to oGsMC, it is the safest PvZ opener, and I agree with him. This build lets you get up an expansion even more safely than a 3 gate expand, as it shuts down any 2 base roach ling allins more easily. In addition, you get early game map control and can apply a little pressure. You make it sound like 2 gate stargate is safer than 3 gate sentry against roach/ling all-ins. Could you provide some replay/Pro vod examples where roach/ling all-ins worked against 3 gate sentry expand? I can't imagine any all-in killing 3 gate sentry expand, I always figured it was the safest build for Toss to do in terms of dealing with all-ins while playing blindly (why you would play blind and not scout I don't know, but just saying). Anyways, I wanted to ask you, since you are posting about safe builds, what are some unsafe builds? I was just wondering what your thoughts were on any sort of 'unsafe' P play, and what a Zerg like me could do to solidly exploit it. Also, I'd love your thoughts on a Zerg taking a fast third vs 3 gate sentry expand, such as how can zerg hold it best, what are Toss' options to pressure it (ie do they add gateways and push, or just push with the 3 gates? what time is toss trying to push by, etc). Recently I've been going fast third vs 1/3g expands (35ish third and roach warren, pump pure units at 40 supply vs 1 gate expand and 45 supply vs 3 gate expand as it seems 1 gate expand hits earlier and harder, if that makes sense, i dont know, i'm still working it out but i find this has been working really well). Yes, I'm aware of the whole "ffe vs 3 gate" argument, and "omg zerg is so far behind 2 base lair vs 2 base P" but I'm not getting into that here (i already have my thoughts on the matter, anyways i think you agree with me on it anyways).
It's pretty obvious that 2 gate stargate is better vs roach ling allin. There was a whole month where 3 gate expand died to Roach ling allins. Find the vod of Losiria vs Alicia in the GSL about a year ago. Pretty much every 3 gate in the month directly after that died to a roach ling allin. It took some innovations and a lot better sim city/control from toss from them to finally being hold this allin. One reason 3 gate got less popular is that because of the roach ling allin, things like 3 gate into fast stargate/robo/twilight became unsafe.
Unsafe builds, by the definition of this thread, are things like dt expand, blink all-in, 4 gate, etc....
You can reactively take a 3rd on most maps versus 1/3 gate expand as zerg as long as you're sure they're not going to nexus cancel.
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United States8477 Posts
On February 02 2012 07:33 Selendis wrote:
I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal.
It's geared towards newer players, so 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry are perfectly fine.
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On February 02 2012 07:33 Selendis wrote:
I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal.
If you already know all the standard builds for each matchup I imagine you should already be able to deduce what the most consistently standard build vs random should be for each race.
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On February 02 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:33 Selendis wrote:
I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal. It's geared towards newer players, so 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry are perfectly fine.
Oh my bad. In that case, I take that back, it's a good guide, thanks for doing something simple yet effective to help out the community! 
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It's pretty obvious that 2 gate stargate is better vs roach ling allin. There was a whole month where 3 gate expand died to Roach ling allins. Find the vod of Losiria vs Alicia in the GSL about a year ago. Pretty much every 3 gate in the month directly after that died to a roach ling allin. It took some innovations and a lot better sim city/control from toss from them to finally being hold this allin. One reason 3 gate got less popular is that because of the roach ling allin, things like 3 gate into fast stargate/robo/twilight became unsafe.
Thanks, I'll look into them. I'm assuming once toss learned better control/sim city, that 3 gate became popular again. But the only reason you don't see it as much now (now that such roach/ling all-ins can be held off with 3 gate sentry with better understanding/control) because of the large maps (ie you see 3 gate sentry everytime on crossfire still).
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The forge FE build you linked is outdated. I think the Heroic FFE thread is a suitable replacement.
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I think you forgot to mention PvZ 1gate expand, something I do in every game that is not FFE or occasional 1base all-in
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Is these builds outdated or can i still use them to learn how to play protos?
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United States8477 Posts
On April 14 2012 22:19 Jarven wrote:
Is these builds outdated or can i still use them to learn how to play protos?
The builds are still all viable and 1 gate fe, ffe, and 3 stalker rush are still considered the standards of their respective matchups.
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What would be the best strategy to counter a Terran that does a 1/1/1?
I find it hard to hold off a Terran that does this all-in when i have expanded or even when i haven't. They will normally get a Raven with a (PDD) *Point Defense Drone* and that makes your stalkers absolutely useless against the Banshees and tanks.
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United States8477 Posts
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This kind of post was exactly what i was looking for, thanks!
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I love this! I recently switched to protoss thanks!
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Awesome thread would like to see this for terran (:
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Are these builds still viable/accurate?
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On July 10 2012 00:14 Czarkasm wrote:
Are these builds still viable/accurate?
yes
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Hello,
I have started playing with WoL, can i learn these builds then switch to HoS and continue to use
Them safely or should I learn something else right now ? ( i preordered Hos but i don' t have access to the beta so I must continue on WoL
Thanks
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Italy12248 Posts
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EPT
