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United States8476 Posts
Introduction:
In my opinion, the best way to learn to play this game is by learning one build versus each race and practicing it until you get decently solid with it. In addition, these builds shouldn’t rely on one brilliant “miracle” attack. Although these timing attacks or allins will get you a lot of free wins at lower levels, you won’t actually improve in the basics of the game such as macro, scouting, and economy management, so eventually you’ll hit a plateau where your attacks are more likely defended than not. With a macro style build, you can learn all the branches of the build and improve on your basic RTS skills. When you begin to learn other builds, your experience and these skills you’ve learned will transfer to those builds as well.
In the protoss help-me forum, every few questions is someone asking for such good, solid builds versus each race. While I’m glad to answer, it gets kinda repetitive posting the same response each time. The following builds/openings are all considered “safe” in that if you play them correctly, you are guaranteed to get you into the mid game. There are no builds from the opposing race which results in a build order win, and these builds allow ample room to deviate and react to your opponents’ builds.
PvT
2 gate robo
This is the original “safe” build for PvT. You get an observer fast and respond accordingly to what your opponent is doing. Its weaknesses include lack of early pressure and a slightly weaker economy that some other builds may provide. This is the quintessential good starting build to learn with, as you don’t have to make as many reads based on experience with the essentially free maphack the observer gives you.
1 gate fe
This is a slightly more advanced build that can give you a better economy leading up to the midgame. The biggest problem for this build is that you need to make some early game reads to properly respond to certain openings from your opponent. Because of this, I recommend you learn it after you master the 2 gate robo build.
PvZ
3 gate expand
This build is the first “standard” build of PvZ. It works on every map, and gets a healthy amount of units before expanding. After your expansion gets up safely, you have a wide variety of options open to you. These include but are not limited to hallucination scouting, 3-5 gate pushes, stargate pressure, fast robotics, or blink.
2 gate stargate
This build is not recommended much, because it’s not as “standard” as a 3 gate expand, but I would say it’s the 2nd most popular build that’s not forge fe. And according to oGsMC, it is the safest PvZ opener, and I agree with him. This build lets you get up an expansion even more safely than a 3 gate expand, as it shuts down any 2 base roach ling allins more easily. In addition, you get early game map control and can apply a little pressure.
Forge fast expand
Although this build is not viable on all maps, it is actually the best opening possible on a majority of maps. I do not recommend this as a first build for players, as the order of buildings is different for every map and versus every zerg opening you scout, so it can be confusing for newer players. However, I do recommend every single protoss player eventually learn this opening, as it is a necessity to not fall behind on certain maps.
PvP
2 Gate 3 Stalker Rush
Besides proxy gates and cannon rushes, pretty much the only early game threat in PvP is the 4 gate. Thus, all openings anyone can recommend will revolve around defending a 4 gate. This particular opening is very standard and doesn't require the level of execution as say a 1 gate defense would. Once you are comfortable with PvP and this opening, you can move onto other anti 4-gate builds such as those outlined here in the compilation of anti 4-gate builds guide.
Note: Changed my PvP recommendation from Geiko's 3 gate to 3 stalker rush
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Thank you very much! I have been trying to learn Protoss and this is nice to see. I have been trying a 3gate expand in PvT also- do you think this is too unsafe to put on the list?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 19 2011 04:02 monitor wrote:
Thank you very much! I have been trying to learn Protoss and this is nice to see. I have been trying a 3gate expand in PvT also- do you think this is too unsafe to put on the list?
The only problem is that it's close to a build order loss versus the 1-1-1 marine tank banshee push. Also, you fall too far behind a gasless expand.
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I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener.
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I don't think there is a single safe PvT or PvP build. PvZ certainly does though. Having said that, you might want to include MC's defensive 3 gate for PvP and defensive 4 gate as well.
On September 19 2011 04:05 crocodile wrote:
I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener.
I really think it depends on how greedy you are with the voidray and how much scouting you do with your penix. If you send the voidray straight to the 3rd and use phoenixes to kill the defending queens and don't scout, then I think it is unsafe. But scouting a 2 base Zerg, you can easily react with more gateways and cannons, get blink/robo and win.
Also, 2 hatch hydra is definitely a blind all in. It is not possible to go 'i see stargate, gonna go all in with hydras'
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Mc doing 3 gate expand FPVOD
+ Show Spoiler +
Mc doing 1 gate Fe vs Puma on XelNaga Caverns. This was the game where he came close to holding the 1-1-1.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29EGPuma_vs_%28P%29oGsMC__sc2rep_com_20110822/12733
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Ive been toying with the idea of 3 gate expanding but cutting units if i scout gassless expand and dropping full chronoboost on probes. I think that having production but skewing in favor of economy isn't something entirely explored in the early game.
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On September 19 2011 04:07 Micket wrote:I don't think there is a single safe PvT or PvP build. PvZ certainly does though. Having said that, you might want to include MC's defensive 3 gate for PvP and defensive 4 gate as well. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 04:05 crocodile wrote:
I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener. I really think it depends on how greedy you are with the voidray and how much scouting you do with your penix. If you send the voidray straight to the 3rd and use phoenixes to kill the defending queens and don't scout, then I think it is unsafe. But scouting a 2 base Zerg, you can easily react with more gateways and cannons, get blink/robo and win. Also, 2 hatch hydra is definitely a blind all in. It is not possible to go 'i see stargate, gonna go all in with hydras'
2 Hatch hydra is not a blind allin. If you get your lair at a standard timing instead of delaying it like many zergs do for a quick third, you can reactively make 8 hydras and a creep highway and rally lings for an easy win vs 2g Stargate. I don't think 2g Stargate provides the proper scouting to see this coming in time.
2g stargate should probably die to destinys ling infestor timing attack as well, although I've never tested it.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:19 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 04:07 Micket wrote:I don't think there is a single safe PvT or PvP build. PvZ certainly does though. Having said that, you might want to include MC's defensive 3 gate for PvP and defensive 4 gate as well. On September 19 2011 04:05 crocodile wrote:
I would disagree about 2g Stargate being safe in pvz. It makes you extremely vulnerable to a hydra/ling attack. That timing window is huge because of how long it takes to get the tech to deal with it after this opener. I really think it depends on how greedy you are with the voidray and how much scouting you do with your penix. If you send the voidray straight to the 3rd and use phoenixes to kill the defending queens and don't scout, then I think it is unsafe. But scouting a 2 base Zerg, you can easily react with more gateways and cannons, get blink/robo and win. Also, 2 hatch hydra is definitely a blind all in. It is not possible to go 'i see stargate, gonna go all in with hydras' 2 Hatch hydra is not a blind allin. If you get your lair at a standard timing instead of delaying it like many zergs do for a quick third, you can reactively make 8 hydras and a creep highway and rally lings for an easy win vs 2g Stargate. I don't think 2g Stargate provides the proper scouting to see this coming in time. 2g stargate should probably die to destinys ling infestor timing attack as well, although I've never tested it.
I highly disagree. With proper scouting with air units, cannons, and a collosi switch, you can easily fend off either of these timing attacks.
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I don't see how 2 base Hydra or the Destiny timing could go unscouted... Your Stargate goes down around 4:20-4:25 and your Void Ray is out putting on pressure within the next 2 minutes with Phoenixes on the way. Unless you do a cheesy-fast Lair the means that you have another 1-2 minutes of harrassing+scouting to see the attack coming, so plenty of timing to expand and cannon up vs Hydras. The Ling Timing takes forever and a Colossus is easy to get out, and your phoenixes force Burrow to be used which slows it down further.
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All I'm saying is that I have never lost in master league to 1 base Stargate. Hydra ling kills it every time. If you want to 1v1 to prove this I'd be happy to do so and we can put the results here. Maybe all the protoss I've been playing are just bad (a strong possibility) so i'm quite curious.. msg me crocodile.703
Also, I'd love to hear the definition of a 'cheesy' lair timing.
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On September 19 2011 04:36 CaptainHaz wrote:
Ive been toying with the idea of 3 gate expanding but cutting units if i scout gassless expand and dropping full chronoboost on probes. I think that having production but skewing in favor of economy isn't something entirely explored in the early game.
I don't think that it would matter, you're still delaying your nexus too much and using a couple extra chronos on probes would not change that.
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Great idea monk.
This is going to be linked in the SQSA and Protoss help thread like two times per page now :p
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On September 20 2011 00:57 crocodile wrote:
All I'm saying is that I have never lost in master league to 1 base Stargate. Hydra ling kills it every time. If you want to 1v1 to prove this I'd be happy to do so and we can put the results here. Maybe all the protoss I've been playing are just bad (a strong possibility) so i'm quite curious.. msg me crocodile.703
Also, I'd love to hear the definition of a 'cheesy' lair timing.
Cheesy lair timing is either before ling speed or getting lair straight after speed and not taking drones off gas.
And MC's stargate build is NOT 1 base. It is a 1 gate expand into 2 gate stargate which is awesome vs most all in cheeses.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:57 crocodile wrote:
All I'm saying is that I have never lost in master league to 1 base Stargate. Hydra ling kills it every time. If you want to 1v1 to prove this I'd be happy to do so and we can put the results here. Maybe all the protoss I've been playing are just bad (a strong possibility) so i'm quite curious.. msg me crocodile.703
Also, I'd love to hear the definition of a 'cheesy' lair timing.
It's a stargate expand, not 1 base stargate. It's very common at high levels, and yes the protoss you've been playing are probably just bad.
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On September 20 2011 01:09 JLew wrote:
I don't think that it would matter, you're still delaying your nexus too much and using a couple extra chronos on probes would not change that.
You're delaying it by a minute or so, and I don't agree that the chronoboost compensation on probes wouldn't make up for having the production and nexus out relatively quickly. It is similar to huk's 20 nexus into 3 gate pressue, save the reverse ordering in building and reactivity based on scouting intel.
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Thank you very much for this! I always feel lost and clueless whenever I play, because in addition to not being able to play very often, I'm also not sure what I should do, so this helps a great deal. When you have a chance, can you edit the OP with links to some replays or VODs?
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Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting.
NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2011 02:07 fishjie wrote:
Thank you very much for this! I always feel lost and clueless whenever I play, because in addition to not being able to play very often, I'm also not sure what I should do, so this helps a great deal. When you have a chance, can you edit the OP with links to some replays or VODs?
Yea, that's planned. =P
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Thanks mate! Just switched from zerg to protoss. Just what i needed! :D
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On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand.
Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change.
I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now?
Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill.
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On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill.
General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
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i used to effortlessly beat any kind of 1 base stargate by just flooding lings with no lair and no drones, and attack just after natural nexus is finished. The only progame i recall where something like this happened was a idra vs kiwikaki game where idra won despite having made roaches.
imo any kind of low-unit build only works on maps where you'd prefer to ffe. But i haven't played in a month or so.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill. General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
Gate-cyber-nexus, then 2 more gates to simcity your natural against roach/ling aggression mostly.
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On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:
General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
I believe you cut the zealot and go stalker->sentry->sentry in some variations. Usually 1 gate is done against either a hatch first, or a fairly late gas build. So it would be something like
gate->core->zealot/stalker->sentry->sentry pylon on low ground->nexus->gate->gate/forge etc.
Could be wrong, so someone correct me.
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On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill. General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
I one gate FE quite regularly, maybe I'll write a guide after 1.4 hits (I once worked on a guide, then a patch made it useless [voidray expand build that somewhat faked a voidray all-in PvT]).
Generally I don't use it vs gas/pool, as mass speedlings are hard to stop. Not game over, still an unnecessary risk. I follow a simple, but imo quite awsome chrono-boost-usage I've picked up from Hwangsin and Nightend's stream. Basicly you put your nexus down when normally you would put down the 2 additional gates for 3 gate expo. Afterwards the 2nd and 3rd gate. Nevertheless, since the gates are later, from this point on you chrono-boost your gate instead of wg-tech (no need for wg finishing before 2nd and 3rd gate). With the reduced sentry-buildtime, you can get a ton of sentries out of your single gate if you execute properly. Definitely enough to deal with any shenanigans that is not mass-speedlings after a speedling expand opening.
Furthermore, depending on your scouting-intel, you are free to deviate as you please. For instance, if zerg doesn't take gas for ages, I sometimes go one gate expo straight stargate.
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Allow me to disagree with 3 gate expand being a valid PvZ opener.
Toss will be behind economically throughout the entire game, unless there is some gimmick/cheesy followup. The last warpgate nerf (which ironically was a PvP directed nerf) killed this build completely.
Forge expand is the only option if Toss wants to economically match a fast expanding zerg and apply mid-game pressure. Forge FE is also viable in maps like Shattered and Metalopolis with precise building placement and the mandatory extra cannon.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:29 kasumimi wrote:
Allow me to disagree with 3 gate expand being a valid PvZ opener.
Toss will be behind economically throughout the entire game, unless there is some gimmick/cheesy followup. The last warpgate nerf (which ironically was a PvP directed nerf) killed this build completely.
Forge expand is the only option if Toss wants to economically match a fast expanding zerg and apply mid-game pressure. Forge FE is also viable in maps like Shattered and Metalopolis with precise building placement and the mandatory extra cannon.
3gate expand is reasonable as a lower level/starter opening. Sure it has its issues, but it's a good place to start, just like any sentry expand variation in pvz. On the other hand FFE requires better gamesense and scouting because the resposnes to allins and macro play are really different. But then again, i dont like ffe in general 
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I like the idea of a one Gate, Forge, expand as a middle way between the extremes of FFE and 3-gate expand.
Thanks for the guide by the way :D
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Is 2gate robo really safe vs Terran? I thought the consensus was that it auto-lost to a well-executed 1-1-1 because you don't have enough eco to overpower his mules when it hits?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 24 2011 09:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is 2gate robo really safe vs Terran? I thought the consensus was that it auto-lost to a well-executed 1-1-1 because you don't have enough eco to overpower his mules when it hits?
This is tricky, and there's different schools of thought on it, but you shouldn't have to deal with well executed 1-1-1 builds if you're looking at this guide. In my opinion, 2 gate robo can hold off 1-1-1, but you have to play perfectly without any mistakes. If you're looking for encouragement, Slayers_Puzzle and IMYounghwa almost exclusive use 2 gate robo in their PvT's.
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It's too early to say for certain, but I'm nearly convinced that 2gas 1gate robo obs expand is a legit opening vs terran. Make an immortal before your observer if the terran 2raxes you and you'll be fine vs the push + be able to expo a little later.
Idea is that you delay warp (a lot) in favor of really fast scouting + plenty of immortals, which not only keep you safe vs most things but also can seriously put the hurt on terrans who expand. Check the Hister thread, read my posts and you'll see what I mean. He does a 1 base attack, but i'm pretty sure you can sneak in the expo and hit just as hard + be way more flexible.
note: if you scout no gas you can't do this unless you're sure it's not rine/scv allin
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What about early cheeses like 3 rax or 7 RR? ( i know how to scout 7 RR, no idea how to scout 3rax tho). I used to open 3 gate robo just to be safe from early shaningans.
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One of the problem of a 2gate robo was that it set you up behind if the terran opens eco. But with the immortal buff I think you can apply some decent pressure off of it (with 1-2 immortals, zealots and sentries).
Look up how Puzzle executes his 2gate robo, I think he takes his expand before 6 minutes (didn't save him from being annihilated by Bomber though ;D)
As for a 2gate robo holding a 1-1-1, I don't know. Fast expands with 3-4 gates and a robo seem to be able to defend a decently executed 1-1-1 (Tails vs MVP), but probably still are quite risky against rax based pressure.
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On September 25 2011 18:42 blanks.yuC wrote:
What about early cheeses like 3 rax or 7 RR? ( i know how to scout 7 RR, no idea how to scout 3rax tho). I used to open 3 gate robo just to be safe from early shaningans.
Assuming you're asking me:
3rax I haven't tested against but you should be able to scout it before you make a nexus and if not, you can for sure cancel the nexus when your observer spots his play. There's zero chance he can take your ramp but tbh I don't know how it pans out after that. presumably he'll get a nice concave contain on your ramp, I don't know if you can break it but I'd guess either 1 base colossus or +1 armor immortals are your best shot.
I don't think 7RR is beatable in PvT unfortunately, probably someone should complain about another imba build on the blizzard forums.
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On September 20 2011 03:28 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill. General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently. I one gate FE quite regularly, maybe I'll write a guide after 1.4 hits (I once worked on a guide, then a patch made it useless [voidray expand build that somewhat faked a voidray all-in PvT]). Generally I don't use it vs gas/pool, as mass speedlings are hard to stop. Not game over, still an unnecessary risk. I follow a simple, but imo quite awsome chrono-boost-usage I've picked up from Hwangsin and Nightend's stream. Basicly you put your nexus down when normally you would put down the 2 additional gates for 3 gate expo. Afterwards the 2nd and 3rd gate. Nevertheless, since the gates are later, from this point on you chrono-boost your gate instead of wg-tech (no need for wg finishing before 2nd and 3rd gate). With the reduced sentry-buildtime, you can get a ton of sentries out of your single gate if you execute properly. Definitely enough to deal with any shenanigans that is not mass-speedlings after a speedling expand opening. Furthermore, depending on your scouting-intel, you are free to deviate as you please. For instance, if zerg doesn't take gas for ages, I sometimes go one gate expo straight stargate.
This is a very useful post...thanks! I've been wanting to try 1 Gate FE for awhile.
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On September 25 2011 12:09 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 09:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is 2gate robo really safe vs Terran? I thought the consensus was that it auto-lost to a well-executed 1-1-1 because you don't have enough eco to overpower his mules when it hits? This is tricky, and there's different schools of thought on it, but you shouldn't have to deal with well executed 1-1-1 builds if you're looking at this guide. In my opinion, 2 gate robo can hold off 1-1-1, but you have to play perfectly without any mistakes. If you're looking for encouragement, Slayers_Puzzle and IMYounghwa almost exclusive use 2 gate robo in their PvT's.
Thanks, I appreciate the response.
Though I do feel like it's a little misleading to say lower level players won't face perfect 1-1-1s, but then say we need to play perfectly to hold it; if I could defend perfectly, I probably wouldn't still be lower level. But fair enough. If it's good enough for Puzzle it's good enough for diamond. Nice to know it's not considered a straight-up BO loss.
New question... how different is PvP post-patch? Do we still need to do conservative almost-4gate builds like Gieko's, or can we get away with things like 2gr or even gate-robo-gate now he can't warp over forcefields?
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This is a great post. I've been looking for a solid opening in each matchup so I can practice my mechanics and game sense without having to worry about choosing a build.
Does anyone have a really optimized 2gate stargate build? I've been doing zealot-stalker-zealot-stargate and it's been working fine for me but I'd like some crisp timings to practice.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 23:42 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:
This is a great post. I've been looking for a solid opening in each matchup so I can practice my mechanics and game sense without having to worry about choosing a build.
Does anyone have a really optimized 2gate stargate build? I've been doing zealot-stalker-zealot-stargate and it's been working fine for me but I'd like some crisp timings to practice.
I recommend you watch hero vs shelth on shattered temple from the last MLG.
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Thanks! Have taken note and will practice in due time
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Really anything is safe in PvP now. If you want to get really greedy and skip sentry for stalker or a quicker tech building you can take some damage to 3 stalker rush on some maps (or even zealot stalker stalker I guess) or 3 gate pressure, but that's kind of it. This of course ignores blind counter auto losses like phoenix vs. Quick immortal or non-robo vs dt.
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This is a really good thread, and I keep coming back to it and wondering if I shouldn't go back to 2-gate robo as my PvT opener. I've been doing a lot of 1-gate expo and 1-gate robo expands, and I find it's just really difficult to hold a lot of pressure openers. My problem is, I can't hold a 1-1-1 (or whatever you want to call the damned Banshee/Marine/Tank all-ins off of a Fac, a Starport and 3 rax that we've all been dying to) without a really early expo, and you can't scout that it's coming before deciding on an opening.
So here's my question: With the advent of the 1-1-1, can 2-gate robo expand still be considered a "safe" opener? Can it scout the all-in coming and respond to it with an army that can hold the push?
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In my experience, just always try to shoot for the 1gate FE unless you see an early tech lab. On the grand majority of maps and spawns you can get away with it as long as the other guy doesn't have concussive. Only when you get strong signs that he's being aggressive early on, revert to 2gate expand or maybe 2gate robo. Good thing is, you can generally tell before you have to put down the Nexus.
This way you won't have to figure out if 2gate robo can scout 1/1/1, you can just do the optimal build in the majority of your games. Although, this is platinum level, so it's quite possible my Terran opponents just aren't putting on enough pressure when I 1gate FE.
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I'm definitely going to try a couple of these builds out in matches later tonight
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Hum you say there is no guide for the Stargate + Gate FE in PvZ.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141155
Antimage did a guide on doing a 1 gate 1 stargate.
The whole guide pretty much applies to the 2 gate version of it. You just need to mod the build order which I think becomes:
9 Pylon
12 Gateway#1
14 Gas#1
15 Pylon
17 Cyber Core
18 Gas#2
Zealot (unit#1)
Que Stalker (unit#2) and Start WarpGate Tech (Chrono stalker and wg once) [only once each])
Pylon
26 Stargate [4:31]
Sentry (unit#3)
31 Gateway#2
34 VoidRay (Chronoboost)
Low Ground Pylon
40 Nexus and send VoidRay to Harass
Phoenix
Forge (before Nexus is done)
Recent example of the build in action:
+ Show Spoiler +Game 3 of Hero vs CrazymoviNG GSL Nov Code A Ro.48 Link
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Since the 3-gate super safe expand is labelled as "too safe" what would be a good pvp opener? (i hate doing a 4-gate or being 4-gated)
also first TL post 
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On January 04 2012 10:27 Kingy604 wrote:Since the 3-gate super safe expand is labelled as "too safe" what would be a good pvp opener? (i hate doing a 4-gate or being 4-gated) also first TL post
I think the 3 stalker Youngwha build is kind of always the safest, transition into robo and twilight play.
 3 Stalker Robo (vs. Protoss)
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On January 04 2012 10:27 Kingy604 wrote:Since the 3-gate super safe expand is labelled as "too safe" what would be a good pvp opener? (i hate doing a 4-gate or being 4-gated) also first TL post
It's too safe in master league. If you are not master league it's still a good build to work on.
If you feel you've outgrown the build and you can tell by yourself that it is too safe, you can do the same build with only 2 gates and minimal probe cut ( i talk about it in the phoenix thread ).
3 stalker openings are good but much much harder to play.
What league are you in ?
And welcome to TL
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just got promoted to gold start of this season
pvp is by far my worst matchup, 40% winrate verses p against 65% vz and 55% vt
so the 3-gate build would be good to use for me until i get much much better?
thanks
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On January 04 2012 10:56 Kingy604 wrote:just got promoted to gold start of this season pvp is by far my worst matchup, 40% winrate verses p against 65% vz and 55% vt so the 3-gate build would be good to use for me until i get much much better? thanks
Yes defensive three gate is very very good at this level. Follow it up with a robo and you're set for the mid game
You can try experimenting yourself with it and see what you can cut etc... based on how confortable you feel.
PvP is one of the most personalized match-up, I don't think anyone does the same BO. You have to chose a build, and adapt it to your playstyle
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do you have any idea what the general BO from inori's 3gate is? he consistently is able to stop 4gates, even on tald'arim altar, without using sentries and ends up having a better army and better economy than his opponent. i've tried looking at the VODs and searching for it myself, but nothing showed up.
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On January 04 2012 11:33 aviator116 wrote:
do you have any idea what the general BO from inori's 3gate is? he consistently is able to stop 4gates, even on tald'arim altar, without using sentries and ends up having a better army and better economy than his opponent. i've tried looking at the VODs and searching for it myself, but nothing showed up.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=275640
But you should ask this in the protoss help me thread.
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United States8476 Posts
Changed my recommendation for PvP to 2 Gate 3 Stalker Rush.
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Great thread man and thank you for keeping it updated.
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What about a 1gate robo opening for PvP? (getting Immortal first)
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PvZ
3 gate expand
This build is the first “standard” build of PvZ. It works on every map, and gets a healthy amount of units before expanding. After your expansion gets up safely, you have a wide variety of options open to you. These include but are not limited to hallucination scouting, 3-5 gate pushes, stargate pressure, fast robotics, or blink.
2 gate stargate
This build is not recommended much, because it’s not as “standard” as a 3 gate expand, but I would say it’s the 2nd most popular build that’s not forge fe. And according to oGsMC, it is the safest PvZ opener, and I agree with him. This build lets you get up an expansion even more safely than a 3 gate expand, as it shuts down any 2 base roach ling allins more easily. In addition, you get early game map control and can apply a little pressure.
You make it sound like 2 gate stargate is safer than 3 gate sentry against roach/ling all-ins. Could you provide some replay/Pro vod examples where roach/ling all-ins worked against 3 gate sentry expand? I can't imagine any all-in killing 3 gate sentry expand, I always figured it was the safest build for Toss to do in terms of dealing with all-ins while playing blindly (why you would play blind and not scout I don't know, but just saying).
Anyways, I wanted to ask you, since you are posting about safe builds, what are some unsafe builds?
I was just wondering what your thoughts were on any sort of 'unsafe' P play, and what a Zerg like me could do to solidly exploit it.
Also, I'd love your thoughts on a Zerg taking a fast third vs 3 gate sentry expand, such as how can zerg hold it best, what are Toss' options to pressure it (ie do they add gateways and push, or just push with the 3 gates? what time is toss trying to push by, etc). Recently I've been going fast third vs 1/3g expands (35ish third and roach warren, pump pure units at 40 supply vs 1 gate expand and 45 supply vs 3 gate expand as it seems 1 gate expand hits earlier and harder, if that makes sense, i dont know, i'm still working it out but i find this has been working really well).
Yes, I'm aware of the whole "ffe vs 3 gate" argument, and "omg zerg is so far behind 2 base lair vs 2 base P" but I'm not getting into that here (i already have my thoughts on the matter, anyways i think you agree with me on it anyways).
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I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 02 2012 07:15 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +PvZ
3 gate expand
This build is the first “standard” build of PvZ. It works on every map, and gets a healthy amount of units before expanding. After your expansion gets up safely, you have a wide variety of options open to you. These include but are not limited to hallucination scouting, 3-5 gate pushes, stargate pressure, fast robotics, or blink.
2 gate stargate
This build is not recommended much, because it’s not as “standard” as a 3 gate expand, but I would say it’s the 2nd most popular build that’s not forge fe. And according to oGsMC, it is the safest PvZ opener, and I agree with him. This build lets you get up an expansion even more safely than a 3 gate expand, as it shuts down any 2 base roach ling allins more easily. In addition, you get early game map control and can apply a little pressure. You make it sound like 2 gate stargate is safer than 3 gate sentry against roach/ling all-ins. Could you provide some replay/Pro vod examples where roach/ling all-ins worked against 3 gate sentry expand? I can't imagine any all-in killing 3 gate sentry expand, I always figured it was the safest build for Toss to do in terms of dealing with all-ins while playing blindly (why you would play blind and not scout I don't know, but just saying). Anyways, I wanted to ask you, since you are posting about safe builds, what are some unsafe builds? I was just wondering what your thoughts were on any sort of 'unsafe' P play, and what a Zerg like me could do to solidly exploit it. Also, I'd love your thoughts on a Zerg taking a fast third vs 3 gate sentry expand, such as how can zerg hold it best, what are Toss' options to pressure it (ie do they add gateways and push, or just push with the 3 gates? what time is toss trying to push by, etc). Recently I've been going fast third vs 1/3g expands (35ish third and roach warren, pump pure units at 40 supply vs 1 gate expand and 45 supply vs 3 gate expand as it seems 1 gate expand hits earlier and harder, if that makes sense, i dont know, i'm still working it out but i find this has been working really well). Yes, I'm aware of the whole "ffe vs 3 gate" argument, and "omg zerg is so far behind 2 base lair vs 2 base P" but I'm not getting into that here (i already have my thoughts on the matter, anyways i think you agree with me on it anyways).
It's pretty obvious that 2 gate stargate is better vs roach ling allin. There was a whole month where 3 gate expand died to Roach ling allins. Find the vod of Losiria vs Alicia in the GSL about a year ago. Pretty much every 3 gate in the month directly after that died to a roach ling allin. It took some innovations and a lot better sim city/control from toss from them to finally being hold this allin. One reason 3 gate got less popular is that because of the roach ling allin, things like 3 gate into fast stargate/robo/twilight became unsafe.
Unsafe builds, by the definition of this thread, are things like dt expand, blink all-in, 4 gate, etc....
You can reactively take a 3rd on most maps versus 1/3 gate expand as zerg as long as you're sure they're not going to nexus cancel.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 02 2012 07:33 Selendis wrote:
I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal.
It's geared towards newer players, so 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry are perfectly fine.
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On February 02 2012 07:33 Selendis wrote:
I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal.
If you already know all the standard builds for each matchup I imagine you should already be able to deduce what the most consistently standard build vs random should be for each race.
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On February 02 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:33 Selendis wrote:
I came into this thread thinking the "X" in PvX was referring to random players; that you were covering an awesome new build that specifically targets randomers and their metagame nuances. But apparently you are just covering the bread and butter builds of protoss. How dissapointing.
I already use the builds you listed too, except for 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry which imho are terrible builds that put you way behind economically.
Funny that you mention "safe" play is better than all-ins though, I always transition to an all-in if I see the right trigger/s. It's silly not to with warpgate technology at your disposal. It's geared towards newer players, so 2 gate robo and 3 gate sentry are perfectly fine.
Oh my bad. In that case, I take that back, it's a good guide, thanks for doing something simple yet effective to help out the community!
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It's pretty obvious that 2 gate stargate is better vs roach ling allin. There was a whole month where 3 gate expand died to Roach ling allins. Find the vod of Losiria vs Alicia in the GSL about a year ago. Pretty much every 3 gate in the month directly after that died to a roach ling allin. It took some innovations and a lot better sim city/control from toss from them to finally being hold this allin. One reason 3 gate got less popular is that because of the roach ling allin, things like 3 gate into fast stargate/robo/twilight became unsafe.
Thanks, I'll look into them. I'm assuming once toss learned better control/sim city, that 3 gate became popular again. But the only reason you don't see it as much now (now that such roach/ling all-ins can be held off with 3 gate sentry with better understanding/control) because of the large maps (ie you see 3 gate sentry everytime on crossfire still).
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The forge FE build you linked is outdated. I think the Heroic FFE thread is a suitable replacement.
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I think you forgot to mention PvZ 1gate expand, something I do in every game that is not FFE or occasional 1base all-in
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Is these builds outdated or can i still use them to learn how to play protos?
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United States8476 Posts
On April 14 2012 22:19 Jarven wrote:
Is these builds outdated or can i still use them to learn how to play protos?
The builds are still all viable and 1 gate fe, ffe, and 3 stalker rush are still considered the standards of their respective matchups.
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What would be the best strategy to counter a Terran that does a 1/1/1?
I find it hard to hold off a Terran that does this all-in when i have expanded or even when i haven't. They will normally get a Raven with a (PDD) *Point Defense Drone* and that makes your stalkers absolutely useless against the Banshees and tanks.
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United States8476 Posts
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This kind of post was exactly what i was looking for, thanks!
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I love this! I recently switched to protoss thanks!
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Awesome thread would like to see this for terran (:
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Are these builds still viable/accurate?
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On July 10 2012 00:14 Czarkasm wrote:
Are these builds still viable/accurate?
yes
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Hello,
I have started playing with WoL, can i learn these builds then switch to HoS and continue to use
Them safely or should I learn something else right now ? ( i preordered Hos but i don' t have access to the beta so I must continue on WoL
Thanks
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Italy12246 Posts
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Actually, this guide comes from the link you provided 
(Protoss section -> Safe PvX Openings)
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Italy12246 Posts
Ah woops i thought it wasn't included anymore my bad.
In that case yeah, these builds are ok. I suggest learning FFE (Forge Fast Expand) from the big PvZ guide though.
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EPT
