EPT15 nexus is fairly mainstream now in PvZ, and since you can transition into just about anything with this build, I don’t feel like it’s feasible to write a comprehensive guide about it. However, this thread still deserves an update, and I feel that there are still some big misconceptions about this build, so I hope I can clear some things up.
Build order
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“15 Nexus” is not an entirely accurate name for this build, since you shouldn’t always blindly place your nexus at 15 supply. The reason why it’s popularly referred to as 15 nex stems from the 14 cc or 12/13/14 nex of BW. In essence, the only defining feature of this build is that you’re placing your nexus before a gateway or forge. Getting your nexus at 15 supply versus 18 supply doesn’t really change this build.
I recommend scouting with your probe that builds the pylon. If you see a 6-11 pool, you’ll have to abandon this build and get a forge up first. Against a 14 pool, 15 nexus 15 forge is probably your safest play. If you scout the zerg going hatch first, you won’t have to cut probes and can place the nexus at 17 supply, chronoing your probes 3 times before the nexus. We’ve even seen GuineaPig build a 2nd pylon before the nexus in GSL. The difference is small – the point is that you don’t need to cut probes if the zerg doesn’t pool first. After placing your nexus, you normally will also have time to start your gateway before the forge. It all depends on map/rush distance, and how late your opponent starts his pool.
Vs 6-11 pool:
9 pylon
Forge whenever you scout the early pool
Vs 14 pool:
9 pylon
chrono probes twice
15 nexus (cut probe production temporarily)
15 forge
chrono probes again
17 pylon
18 cannon/gateway (if you don’t see the zerg saving up larva, feel free to get gateway first. If you see larva being saved for 4-6 lings, you’ll want that cannon first)
Vs hatch first:
9 pylon
chrono probes 3 times
17 nexus (don’t cut probes)
18 pylon
19 gateway
19 forge
I recommend scouting with your probe that builds the pylon. If you see a 6-11 pool, you’ll have to abandon this build and get a forge up first. Against a 14 pool, 15 nexus 15 forge is probably your safest play. If you scout the zerg going hatch first, you won’t have to cut probes and can place the nexus at 17 supply, chronoing your probes 3 times before the nexus. We’ve even seen GuineaPig build a 2nd pylon before the nexus in GSL. The difference is small – the point is that you don’t need to cut probes if the zerg doesn’t pool first. After placing your nexus, you normally will also have time to start your gateway before the forge. It all depends on map/rush distance, and how late your opponent starts his pool.
Vs 6-11 pool:
9 pylon
Forge whenever you scout the early pool
Vs 14 pool:
9 pylon
chrono probes twice
15 nexus (cut probe production temporarily)
15 forge
chrono probes again
17 pylon
18 cannon/gateway (if you don’t see the zerg saving up larva, feel free to get gateway first. If you see larva being saved for 4-6 lings, you’ll want that cannon first)
Vs hatch first:
9 pylon
chrono probes 3 times
17 nexus (don’t cut probes)
18 pylon
19 gateway
19 forge
15 Nexus vs other types of PvZ FE
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3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
So when should you go 15 nex and when should you go 3 gate FE? It just depends on your personal preference/playstyle, and also on the map; obviously, it’s much easier to go 15 nex on a map like LT than it is on a map like xel naga. But more importantly, you need to consider what your mid-game plan is. If you want to do a strong mid-game attack (ex. 6 gate), it might be a good idea to do a 3 gate FE and get a lot of sentries early on so you’ll have a lot of energy saved up for that attack. If you want to do some sort of 2 stargate into a gas-heavy death ball, it makes sense to go 15 nex with a bunch of cannons since you'll have a lot of extra minerals anyway.
The same logic also applies to 1 gate FE – it’s just somewhat of a middle ground between 15 nex and 3 gate FE.
However, FFE (forge fast expand) doesn’t really have any advantages over 15 nex, and I don’t see why anyone would FFE since 15 nexus beats it hands down economically, and you’re still perfectly safe from 14 pool. The only time you would FFE is if you intend to do some pylon/cannon ramp block, or you’re playing on steppes (and that has more to do with the layout of ramp/natural more so than the short rush distance, I’ll explain more below).
So when should you go 15 nex and when should you go 3 gate FE? It just depends on your personal preference/playstyle, and also on the map; obviously, it’s much easier to go 15 nex on a map like LT than it is on a map like xel naga. But more importantly, you need to consider what your mid-game plan is. If you want to do a strong mid-game attack (ex. 6 gate), it might be a good idea to do a 3 gate FE and get a lot of sentries early on so you’ll have a lot of energy saved up for that attack. If you want to do some sort of 2 stargate into a gas-heavy death ball, it makes sense to go 15 nex with a bunch of cannons since you'll have a lot of extra minerals anyway.
The same logic also applies to 1 gate FE – it’s just somewhat of a middle ground between 15 nex and 3 gate FE.
However, FFE (forge fast expand) doesn’t really have any advantages over 15 nex, and I don’t see why anyone would FFE since 15 nexus beats it hands down economically, and you’re still perfectly safe from 14 pool. The only time you would FFE is if you intend to do some pylon/cannon ramp block, or you’re playing on steppes (and that has more to do with the layout of ramp/natural more so than the short rush distance, I’ll explain more below).
Defending against early roach aggression
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Right before patch 1.12 came out, people were afraid that the roach range buff would completely kill protoss FE. Hopefully, no one still believes that. However, it seems that most people still think that 15 nex is only viable on a very limited number of maps. I would like to argue that while some maps are better suited for 15 nex than others, it is still viable on almost every map in the current map pool (with the exception being DQ).
Please note that just because I say it’s viable doesn’t mean I think that it’s the best build for that map. I’ll agree with anyone that there are stronger alternatives than 15 nex on maps like blistering and xel naga, but it is still perfectly doable.
Why exactly does the roach range increase not matter that much? Cannons behind a wall of gate/forge/core still defends well against roaches. Roaches still will not be able to snipe your wall, since roach range of 4 + building size of 3 = 7, the range of cannons (maybe at certain angles you can get 1 or 2 roaches to shoot the buildings out of range of cannons but that gives you plenty of time to make more defenses).
So for maps like LT, shakuras, and steppes, it’s pretty easy to defend just behind 1 wall. What about metal and xel’naga, where the natural is wide open? Or, blistering, scrap, and jungle basin, where there’s a backdoor entrance? The answer is to build 2 sets of cannons, one set for each side or entrance. What’s important to understand here is that you only need additional cannons (i.e. more than 1) if you scout some kind of early pressure, and that if you do scout early pressure or some kind of all-in, you can always make enough cannons to stop it, even if you have to defend 2 different locations. The zerg can force you to make 8 cannons and then not commit to an attack, but you’re not necessarily behind because while he’s been using his larva on roaches you’ve been chronoing probes out of 2 nexii.
Always play it safe though. As soon as you see something dangerous, whether its ling speed, banelings, or roaches, stop everything and get more cannons up. I also like to completely wall off when I see an attack coming – 100 or 150 minerals is a small price to pay to protect from ling or roach run-bys.
Please note that just because I say it’s viable doesn’t mean I think that it’s the best build for that map. I’ll agree with anyone that there are stronger alternatives than 15 nex on maps like blistering and xel naga, but it is still perfectly doable.
Why exactly does the roach range increase not matter that much? Cannons behind a wall of gate/forge/core still defends well against roaches. Roaches still will not be able to snipe your wall, since roach range of 4 + building size of 3 = 7, the range of cannons (maybe at certain angles you can get 1 or 2 roaches to shoot the buildings out of range of cannons but that gives you plenty of time to make more defenses).
So for maps like LT, shakuras, and steppes, it’s pretty easy to defend just behind 1 wall. What about metal and xel’naga, where the natural is wide open? Or, blistering, scrap, and jungle basin, where there’s a backdoor entrance? The answer is to build 2 sets of cannons, one set for each side or entrance. What’s important to understand here is that you only need additional cannons (i.e. more than 1) if you scout some kind of early pressure, and that if you do scout early pressure or some kind of all-in, you can always make enough cannons to stop it, even if you have to defend 2 different locations. The zerg can force you to make 8 cannons and then not commit to an attack, but you’re not necessarily behind because while he’s been using his larva on roaches you’ve been chronoing probes out of 2 nexii.
Always play it safe though. As soon as you see something dangerous, whether its ling speed, banelings, or roaches, stop everything and get more cannons up. I also like to completely wall off when I see an attack coming – 100 or 150 minerals is a small price to pay to protect from ling or roach run-bys.
Building placement
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The main idea for building placement early game is to make a wall with your nexus, forge, and gateway (and additional pylon(s) if you have to), and have 1 cannon behind it that can protect both your ramp and your natural. I like to make my first pylon at the top of my ramp (except scrap), so that if I scout a 6 pool or something I can instead just completely wall off the top of my ramp with a forge and gateway. Then I get a cannon behind it, and this pretty much shuts down 6 pool even if you don’t put down your forge until 14 or 15 supply.
Here are map specific examples (I’ll try to put up some screen shots soon):
LT/Shakuras – these are easy, and the best maps for opening 15 nex on.
Metal/Xel naga – the wide open natural (more so for xel naga) makes it a bit tricky. Prepare a set of cannons at the bottom of your ramp and another set by your natural geysers. You’ll need an extra building (core or 2nd gate) to finish your wall on xel naga.
Scrap – I prefer building cannons at the natural instead of on the cliff overlooking the destructible rocks, since that spot gives you a much better defensive position. Also, then the cliff becomes one less spot you have to worry about nyduses.
Jungle Basin/Blistering – not much to say about this one, make cannons at your front and also behind the rocks.
Steppes – it’s not worth it to 15 nex here, since you can’t place 1 cannon that can protect ramp, natural nexus/minerals, and wall. Also the natural choke is too wide to effectively completely wall off against run-bys.
Here are map specific examples (I’ll try to put up some screen shots soon):
LT/Shakuras – these are easy, and the best maps for opening 15 nex on.
Metal/Xel naga – the wide open natural (more so for xel naga) makes it a bit tricky. Prepare a set of cannons at the bottom of your ramp and another set by your natural geysers. You’ll need an extra building (core or 2nd gate) to finish your wall on xel naga.
Scrap – I prefer building cannons at the natural instead of on the cliff overlooking the destructible rocks, since that spot gives you a much better defensive position. Also, then the cliff becomes one less spot you have to worry about nyduses.
Jungle Basin/Blistering – not much to say about this one, make cannons at your front and also behind the rocks.
Steppes – it’s not worth it to 15 nex here, since you can’t place 1 cannon that can protect ramp, natural nexus/minerals, and wall. Also the natural choke is too wide to effectively completely wall off against run-bys.
Scouting
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Although scouting is always important, it is absolutely critical for this build to always have an idea of what the zerg is doing early on. If you build too many cannons and he just makes drones, you will be behind. If you don’t build enough cannons and he attempts a bust, you will lose. Most of the times I lose are because of poor scouting or great scouting denial by the zerg. For example, what I fear most are zergs who go quick speedlings to deny scouting, forcing me to make more cannons, while instead just mass droning.
Scouting can be especially tough since you don’t have early stalkers to poke at the zerg which generally gives you information when you do a standard gate core opening. My 2 favorite scouting tricks are to hide a probe somewhere on the map before lings get out to scout at a later time, or to send 2 probes out, using the first to lure zerglings away while the second one sneaks by or goes a different route.
And always keep scouting. Zerg can create an army almost instantly, so just because he only has drones 1 minute doesn’t mean he can’t have 20 roaches in your base the next. Here’s a short list of things to possibly look out for:
Lair timing: fast lair = watch out for nydus or muta, or just some kind of aggression in general
Expo timing: lack of a natural by the time your initial probe is chased away by lings = all-in. The existence of a 3rd = macro
Buildings: roach warren and baneling nest are obvious, but other things to look for are evo chambers (generally signaling upgrades for a macro game), and extractors (0-1 extractors usually means he’s just droning for now)
What units are popping out of eggs: sometimes all you see before your probe dies to chasing lings and a queen is an egg hatching at his natural, but that can tell you a lot. Since zerg usually only builds drones or army units at a time, even if all you see are 2 lings hatching you can assume that he has or will have a lot more.
Scouting can be especially tough since you don’t have early stalkers to poke at the zerg which generally gives you information when you do a standard gate core opening. My 2 favorite scouting tricks are to hide a probe somewhere on the map before lings get out to scout at a later time, or to send 2 probes out, using the first to lure zerglings away while the second one sneaks by or goes a different route.
And always keep scouting. Zerg can create an army almost instantly, so just because he only has drones 1 minute doesn’t mean he can’t have 20 roaches in your base the next. Here’s a short list of things to possibly look out for:
Lair timing: fast lair = watch out for nydus or muta, or just some kind of aggression in general
Expo timing: lack of a natural by the time your initial probe is chased away by lings = all-in. The existence of a 3rd = macro
Buildings: roach warren and baneling nest are obvious, but other things to look for are evo chambers (generally signaling upgrades for a macro game), and extractors (0-1 extractors usually means he’s just droning for now)
What units are popping out of eggs: sometimes all you see before your probe dies to chasing lings and a queen is an egg hatching at his natural, but that can tell you a lot. Since zerg usually only builds drones or army units at a time, even if all you see are 2 lings hatching you can assume that he has or will have a lot more.
OLD OP
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UPDATE: 10/18/10 (post 1.12 patch) - after a few games with the new patch it seems like this build still works just as well on most maps. I've added a few new reps. LT is definitely the best for this build now. On maps like metal and xel naga where there isn't a narrow choke at your natural, you kinda have to build 2 sets of cannons, 1 defending your ramp area and 1 defending the other side of your natural (see rep on metal). Same thing applies to maps with destructible rocks like blistering and jungle, you build 1 set of cannons by choke/ramp and another by the rocks. Trying to cannon the mineral line of both bases doesn't work anymore though, so for people reading this guide for the first time, ignore anything that talks about cannoning the mineral line of both bases. I'll update the entire guide as soon as I get the chance.
This is quite a lengthy guide, so I tried to break it up into sections with spoilers. Thanks for reading! Also I know that patch 1.2 can potentially have a big impact on this build, but please let's keep that out of discussion until the changes are confirmed.
I. INTRODUCTION
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Fast expand in PvZ is a popular and strong opening that has been employed by Protoss players since the beginning of Starcraft. However, going nexus before forge/gateway seems to be one of the less common of its many variants, some of which include 2 gate FE, forge FE, and 1 gate sentry FE. There have been previous threads on this topic, but in general it has been dismissed as a build that only works on some maps, is risky, and easily countered if scouted early. Hopefully with this guide I can clear up some of these mistaken beliefs and demonstrate how a nexus first FE is a safe and versatile opening on virtually any map.
II. OVERVIEW
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The gist of this build is to expand at 15 supply, and defend with mostly cannons until you have warpgates. It’s not as risky as it may seem, and gives you a better economical advantage than a forge FE or 1 gate sentry FE due to the earlier nexus.
First, let me address a few common misconceptions about this build:
You will die to any pool first build.
Against a 14 pool, you might have to pull probes to stall for the first cannon to finish (depending on map/rush distance), but it should not do enough damage to put you at a disadvantage. Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up. If you’re losing to a 6 pool then this build is not your problem, it’s your micro/building placement that needs work. Same story against a 10 pool, although honestly in my past 50 games against zerg I haven’t been 10 pooled a single time.
Early aggression punishes this build.
I fear zergs who macro off 3 bases much more than those who try to all-in me and break my defenses. Cannons are much stronger in SC2 than they were in BW, at least against early zerg units. Couple that with smart building placement and you’re safe against anything that comes (banelings, roaches) before your warpgates start kicking in, as long as you’re not greedy and don’t skimp on cannons. Warpgates will come online and you’ll have stalkers in time to fend off most 2 base hydra builds.
This build only works on maps with easily defendable naturals like LT.
Sure, this build is stronger on maps like LT (where you can easily wall your natural), but it is perfectly viable on maps like delta quadrant and blistering sands as well. How do you wall on those maps? You don’t. Contrary to what you might think, it’s not hard at all to defend 2 bases as protoss. On many maps, instead of making 1 big wall at the natural, I simply cannon up the mineral line in both main and natural. If you suspect any sort of early attack, you can prepare enough cannons at both bases to defend either one. Getting your nexus so early puts you far enough ahead economically that spending a little extra on a few more cannons won’t hurt. The other benefit to cannoning both bases is that you’re protected against nydus and muta play as well, both of which are common reactions against this build.
You probably don’t believe me right now, and if I were to theorycraft I wouldn’t believe myself either. But watch the replays, and try it out yourself – you may be surprised.
So assuming that you’ve safely set up your 2 bases and successfully defended them against early attacks, then what? The answer is: whatever suits you. The most common follow-up is a quick 6 warpgate attack, which is great for defending against 2 base roach/hydra, or if the zerg went double expand, you can expose a timing window before his 3 base economy fully kicks in. Transitioning into a regular robo style PvZ or even dual robo is great as well – your push will come much later (so you won’t be able to challenge his 3rd base), but your ball will be much stronger with colossi/immortal.
My personal favorite route to take though, and the one that I’ll be discussing during the rest of this guide, is 1 stargate phoenix followed by 6 warpgates. While this attack hits a bit later than just a regular 6 warpgate, phoenix is great for scouting, shutting down muta builds (I don’t know about you but I cannot beat muta unless I have phoenix) and picking off overlords/queens and possibly forcing him to invest in spores. If timed correctly, you’ll put a dent into his macro right as you come in with your 6 warpgate army.
III. BUILD ORDER
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9 Pylon (scout with this probe)
15 Nexus
… and that’s it! I’m serious. Where to go from here really depends on what your opponent is doing. Even the BO I use in the replays vary greatly from game to game, so I highly suggest you learn this build based on “game flow” rather than memorizing what building to build at what supply. Roughly, you’ll want to do something like this:
Forge
Pylon
Cannon
Additional cannon(s) as needed, see IV. EARLY GAME
Gateway
Gas
Core, zealot (when gateway is done)
2nd gas
Additional pylons as needed
Stargate (when core is done)
Warpgate tech, stalker/sentry as gas allows
3rd and 4th gas
+1 attack, followed by +1 armor
Gateways until a total of 6-8 (depending on how good your macro is. 6 is optimal, but my macro sucks so I get 7. If your macro is really bad get 8.)
Against a 14 pool, you’ll want to temporarily halt probe production after placing your nexus on 15 to get a forge at 15 as well. Against a hatch first build, you can continue chronoed probe production, get a 2nd pylon, gateway, and gas before you place your forge. Against a 6 or 10 pool you’ll want to abandon this build, start your forge ASAP (that’s why you placed your first pylon in your main), get a cannon up, and switch to another build like a 4 warpgate rush.
Note that the entire time you are constantly producing probes and using your chronos on probe production. Some people claim that you need to cut probes at certain points to make this work, but you really don’t. The only time when you will cut probes is against a 14 pool or if you scout an all-in and need to immediately place more cannons. After you place your core, then you can save your chronos to use on phoenix, warpgate tech, and forge upgrades.
Regarding building placement, I’d recommend walling in your natural with forge/gate on LT, metal, xel’naga, and steppes, and not walling but cannoning both bases on all other maps. This means that your first pylon and forge should go at your natural for the former, and in your main next to your initial nexus for the latter. Some people like walling in on scrap station and placing a cannon on the cliff overlooking the backdoor to your natural, but I find that that cannon can be sniped so I don’t bother with a wall on scrap either.
IV. EARLY GAME
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The key to the early game is knowing how many cannons to put down. You want to keep yourself safe from all-in attempts, but you don’t want to waste your money on useless cannons if the zerg opts for a quick double expand. Scouting is crucial, but it can be very difficult especially if the zerg denies you with lings that camp outside your base. Starting with 1 cannon at each base (or 2 behind a walled-in natural), I’ll put down a 2nd cannon at each base if I see a warning sign – the lack of an expansion by the time my scouting probe dies (probably 1 base play), a large number of lings (10+), any number of speedlings, or any number of roaches. I’ll add a 3rd or even 4th cannon at each base if I see an even bigger warning sign – a large number of speedlings (15+), large group of roaches (5+), or any number of banelings. If at any time you get uneasy or simply star sense an incoming all-in, don’t hesitate to drop more cannons. And of course, pull probes whenever necessary. You’re already ahead with your early expansion, it’s almost always better to be safe.
In order to detect these warning signs in time, don’t get discouraged if you send a scouting probe out and it gets killed immediately. Keep trying! Sacrifice a zealot if you need to. Sometimes you can get a probe out just far enough to see a large force being rallied, or banelings morphing in. A few extra seconds of notice can make all the difference. Another strategy you can try is to send a 2nd scouting probe out of your base before he gets lings and hide it somewhere on the map, to use as a scout later.
When you get your core up, get a stalker or 2 out if the opponent still has overlords in your base or if he has roaches. Otherwise, start making sentries – force fields are essential in stopping larger attacks off of a 2 base zerg that hit before you have warpgates.
One thing to watch out for is nydus play, especially if you’ve walled-in your natural and only have cannons there. Put pylons around the edges of your base, and patrol probes/zealots if you have to. I usually place a cannon or 2 in my main even if I’ve walled-in my natural just in case I let a nydus slip by unnoticed, my wall gets busted, or he does something crazy like 1 base muta.
V. MID GAME
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When your stargate is up, immediately start chronoing out phoenix. I like to start the harass as soon as I have 2, and will continue making phoenix until I have 4-6 total. Target overlords/queens, and if you see any stray hydras, those are excellent targets as well. I actually avoid sniping drones with my phoenix – I’d rather save the energy to kill hydras (remember that hydras are light, so phoenix are really good against them).
By now you should have your warpgate production up. My preferred unit composition is stalker heavy with some sentries/zealots, although you’ll want more zealots if he incorporates lings in his army. You should be able to gauge with your phoenix fleet the approximate size of the zerg army – if it’s rather small and all 3 of his mining bases look well-saturated, now is good time to attack (I’m assuming he’ll be on 3 bases by now. If for some reason he’s still on 2… well 2 base protoss > 2 base zerg. Attack if you think you can overpower him, otherwise just take your 3rd, tech up, and deny him any expansion attempts). If he has poor saturation and a big army, then it’s your judgment call. Wait until you have +1/+1 forge upgrades (which should finish soon if you’ve at least used a few chronos on it) before engaging. Or alternatively, poke around but don’t commit, while teching up and expanding yourself. Also, if he has tried to start a 4th base, a good rule of thumb is to always kill the latest expansion off first.
As you move out, start your robo, twilight council, and a 3rd base. That way if your attack somehow fails, you’re not going to be terribly behind on tech or economy. Also, for those of you who really like blink stalker play, it’s not a bad idea to get that twilight council up early on to have blink ready when you attack.
Lastly, don’t forget about your phoenix – hopefully you didn’t lose them during harass. They are great support units and can either be used to pick off hydras during your attack, or to sneak around to his base and kill overlords/queens while your ground armies engage. Another great thing you can do with phoenix is to send them into his main to make him bring hydra back to defend, while simultaneously attacking his 3rd with your ground army.
VI. BUILDING PLACEMENT
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A critical part of this strategy and its effectiveness at defending against early zerg pressure is your building placement. A few key things to remember:
- Space cannons apart! The most dangerous attacks are those that come with banelings. You don’t want them to blow up 2 cannons for the price of one.
- Try to reduce the surface area of your cannons so that less lings can attack them at a time. Place them adjacent to your nexus, other buildings, or minerals/gas.
- Avoid walling with pylons – use gateways/forge/core instead. Banelings blow through a pylon wall too easily. Note that this mostly applies to only a wall-in at your natural. If you’re cannoning both bases, you won’t have enough buildings and you’ll have to use pylons to fill in some gaps.
- Make sure you have overlapping pylons. I know it’s really basic, but I don’t know how many times I’ve lost because the zerg managed to snipe a key pylon powering half my cannons.
Here’s an example of cannoning a mineral line, which you'll want to do in both main and natural on delta quadrant and maps with destructible rocks like blistering. On LT/metal/steppes, it's better to just wall and cannon your natural and not have to cannon your main. I won’t include examples of walling at your natural, there are tons of other threads and examples out there for that.
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/aijem.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/O37TF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Z2pcJ.jpg)
VII. COUNTERS
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I don’t really think there are any “hard” counters to this build. 6 pool and 10 pool will force you to abandon it (so in a sense they are hard counters), but you will be able to defend with a cannon and still be economically ahead. When I first began experimenting with this build I lost a lot to 2 base early aggression, especially those that hit right before I get warpgates up. However, I have become much better at defending against them, and ironically now I have a much higher success rate with this build on maps that have harder to defend naturals, forcing me to cannon both bases and leading the zerg to opt for early aggression to try to break one of them instead of going for the macro game and getting a 3rd.
In my experience the most optimal response to this build is to double expand right away and macro up a 3 base hydra/roach army. Getting some early speedlings to deny scouting and force more cannons up helps to delay the protoss. It’s also a good idea to get a gold expansion, since if the zerg tries to saturate all 3 bases with drones there is no way he’ll be able to stop the mid-game 6 gate attack.
As far as all-ins go, again although I don’t think it’s the optimal answer, if you’re going to all-in as zerg a delayed baneling bust off of 2 bases is probably your best bet. Probes/cannons are very strong when both armies are small, so 1 base play will not get you very far. Even if you manage to kill a good number of probes, you will be behind unless you manage to take out an entire base. Early roaches by themselves are horrible due to their limited range. A quick nydus is great if the protoss player walled at the natural and doesn’t scout it. Don’t try 2 base hydras, by the time you get a decent amount the protoss will have warpgate tech and enough stalkers to stop it. Mutas will get countered by phoenix.
VIII. REPLAYS
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Lots of things I do in these games contradict what I say in this guide. That’s because I’ve been experimenting with this build for a few weeks now, and a lot of the replays are from pretty early on. Strategies are constantly evolving, and it’s a continuous learning process even for me.
You might also notice that my micro is sloppy, and my macro is even worse. I shoot up past 1k many times, and still beat players better than me. You don’t need to be a 200 apm korean amateur to pull this build off.
Old replays (pre 1.12)
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Vs quick banelings followed by a ling/bling/roach all-in
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156454.jpg)
Vs 1 base baneling bust
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156455.jpg)
Vs early roach aggression
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156450.jpg)
Vs 2 base nydus play with roach/ling followed by hydra
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156460.jpg)
Vs 2 base hydra with nydus play
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156462.jpg)
Vs 2 base muta
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156461.jpg)
Vs double expand
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156452.jpg)
Vs 3 base ling/bling
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156458.jpg)
Vs 3 base with a few quick hydras, followed by muta/ling
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156456.jpg)
Vs 3 base ling/roach/hydra
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156457.jpg)
GSL game. Protoss goes straight for 6 warpgates with blink. Zerg 14 pools into double expand ling/roach.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/932
New replays (post 1.12)
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All these reps show that the protoss FE still holds easily against the new roaches.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-158911.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-158912.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-158913.jpg)
IX. DISCLAIMER
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- I do not claim to have invented this build. I’m fully aware many other people are/have been using it.
- I do not claim to have gone 20-0 with this build. I’ve lost plenty of times with it and it certainly has its weaknesses, but I do think that it’s still a strong build on all maps.
- I hope that the replays, comprehensiveness, and organization of this guide are enough to give this guide all the credentials it needs. I hate threads starting with “I’m a xxxx diamond P player blah blah,” but I know many people want to know anyway so to save you the trouble of looking me up, I’m currently 2100+ and have been on the NA top 200 list ever since it came out, and in the most recent one I was ranked #61.
X. TL;DR
1. Nexus before forge is safe against 14 pool on all maps and is almost always economically better than forge FE. Abandon this build and drop a forge first if you scout any sort of earlier pool.
2. On LT, metal, steppes, maybe xel naga – wall with forge/gate at natural and cannon behind wall.
On DQ – do not wall. Instead, cannon the mineral line of both main and natural.
On all other maps (maps with destructible rocks leading to either main or natural) – I strongly recommend not walling and cannoning both bases, but it’s debatable.
3. Obviously LT and metal are the best maps for this build. But it still works on all maps.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154497.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154498.jpg)
