EPT[G] PvZ 15 Nexus - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
MalVortex
United States119 Posts
| ||
|
sl0w
United States447 Posts
| ||
|
rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2010 09:20 Suerte wrote: I'm curious though, what is your reasoning when you place your initial cannons. I noticed on a few maps like Scrap station the first one was in your main and the second was in your natural. Is there any reason or is it just that on a map like Scrap where both bases are easily accessible without having to go through the natural to get to your main you just arbitrarily picked one to put the first cannon? Yea it's completely arbitrary :p | ||
|
AlexXx
United States58 Posts
| ||
|
rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2010 11:03 AlexXx wrote: This seems pretty scary! Ive done it vs a toss one time on the new Jungle Basin map, I dont even think the toss even scouted down in the natural so it worked out in my favor. But ya here is a match where TTone tried a FE against Dimaga. It did not work out so well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FImPIRakazY Interesting 10 pool from Dimaga, you don't see that normally... but TTone didn't scout and then he went gate instead of forge after the nexus. If he had pylonscouted (as suggested in this build) he would have scouted the early pool in time to drop a forge instead of a nexus and save himself. | ||
|
durielz
United States26 Posts
BTW, if you block a choke in front of your Nat you're really, really begging for a Baneling Bust. Make sure you're prepared at 30+ food. | ||
|
sl0w
United States447 Posts
| ||
|
Keilah
731 Posts
I really just don't see any reason to NOT make your initial pylon below your ramp. If you scout a fast pool or he's in the last spot on a 4-player map, lay down a forge on 14 and you're still perfectly safe. | ||
|
Tossup
United States208 Posts
On October 12 2010 13:34 Keilah wrote: I don't think baneling bust is a serious threat as long as you chrono out a few sentries as soon as your cyber finishes. I really just don't see any reason to NOT make your initial pylon below your ramp. If you scout a fast pool or he's in the last spot on a 4-player map, lay down a forge on 14 and you're still perfectly safe. I agree. If ur going to expo, you can wall off with a gate/forge asap if you see an extremely early pool. (6-10) Also, if you want less of an investment for a wall off. you can 2 pylon wall-in at the bottom of the ramp as well. | ||
|
Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
will def try this the times i roll toss vs zerg. haven't had time to watch the replays, but how do you deal with the infestor build where the zerg spots with an ovelord and throws a million ITs in your base? | ||
|
rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2010 13:26 motus wrote: What maps would you say are not the best for this FE build? I would imagine Steppes would cause some trouble just because even getting the forge at 15 you won't get your cannon up fast enough for even a 14 pool. LT, metal, and xel naga are probably the best for this build, because of ability to wall your natural and just defend 1 choke. Blistering and scrap have destructible rocks making it harder to defend one chokepoint, but the long rush distance makes this build still pretty safe. Steppes and delta quadrant are the worst, although I have done it successfully on delta quadrant several times. For some reason I haven't gotten a PvZ on steppes in nearly 100 games so I have yet to test this build on that map... On October 12 2010 15:27 Tossup wrote: I agree. If ur going to expo, you can wall off with a gate/forge asap if you see an extremely early pool. (6-10) Also, if you want less of an investment for a wall off. you can 2 pylon wall-in at the bottom of the ramp as well. You guys are right, if you're going to wall then it is a better idea to just place your first pylon at your natural. The only time where pylon in main on a wallable map will end up being better is if your opponent 6 or 10 pools and you scout him last (which has happened to me before), but that's probably too rare of an occurrence to justify always putting the first pylon in your main. On October 12 2010 15:53 Dudemeister wrote: haven't had time to watch the replays, but how do you deal with the infestor build where the zerg spots with an ovelord and throws a million ITs in your base? What? I haven't seen a single infestor in any of my PvZ games in years. Replay? | ||
|
P00RKID
United States424 Posts
If a contain build worked at all, it would be just take the map and macro. The following is my theorycrafting. Fast expand, enough lings to (2-6) to keep probes from scouting or putting up proxi pylons or cannons. All other larvae will be drones to saturate. Spine crawlers for harassment defense. Proxy hatch the 3rd instead of taking a 3rd. Contain with spine crawlers. Get spores when pheonix are about. Infesters are also needed when those pheonix come, but are more to help keep the contain safe from any any bust out. With a proxy hatch you can bust down a wall in instead of wasting banelings. All gas into infestor and add in some corruptors later if prottos techs to collosi to try to bust the contain. Infestors can keep P from breaking a spine crawler line, can stop pheonix, can stop voidrays (been getting NP recently a lot more, fg and queens work good too) and FG works great on ground army trying to bust a contain, as well as tons of infested terrans. The great thing about a contain vs this type of play is that it gives you time to get more units fielded while they are working on the contain, and you don't have to heavily defend each expo. Instead, the P has to take down the contain to make a push on any base, instead of easily harassing by ground when your trying to take more bases than a FE protoss. And by getting infestors, you can make a ton of infested terrans to help out the spines and even attack with them. Take a 3rd soon after you start the proxi hatch. Need all the extra gas for infestor and for teching. Just take expansions and tech for as long as you have map control. Trying to take a 3rd without a contain vs a P FE will just get harassed, or you will have to spine up all your expos, or you have to spend your larvae on units to defend it, and can't get a big enough macro lead. You want a macro lead over the P even if they FE, and a contain can get up if they have late gateways. Need just enough lings to keep probes off the map though. Of corse this is all just the way I think, havn't tested this yet. Getting it typed out helps me think and remember what I want to do when I see this. I have done hatchery contains vs forge first FE before that have worked to an extent, so I think it could work well vs this. Also, if they arn't getting a forge or gate on 12/13/14 supply, you better put that scout drone at the expo to delay, and maybe even send another drone to help it if its close positions! tldr - FE into proxy hatch contain for early map control, your defense is your harassment. | ||
|
benjaminethanlim
Singapore25 Posts
would anyone have any advice for lower level players like myself (gold league  ) ? i find it difficult to fend off lings with probes. most of the time when i try this the lings destroy so many probes that im too far behind =( | ||
|
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 12 2010 16:38 Anihc wrote: LT, metal, and xel naga are probably the best for this build, because of ability to wall your natural and just defend 1 choke. you forgot the two new maps  - they have "plz 15 nexus" written all over them, in fact on shakuras I did void ray abuse in my first game (vs T) because of the rocks behind the base and 15 nexus (vs Z) in my 2nd game before reading anything about this in the forums at all; 15 nexus seems like the most logical thing to do on shakurasbtw I've written my first two responses at work where I obviously couldn't watch the reps; now I understand why you don't forge first vs 14 pool....because you don't wall off! honestly I've never seen your building placement on high level before, I'm sure many zergs were as surprised as I was and had no idea how to respond; many of them overcommited because obviously they thought "hey, no wall, eaz-peaz for my lings, what a noob" - and then just died vs the very tight building-arrangement; I like it, will look into it; the reason why I suggested 15 forge (and 15 nexus, just to be clear about it - you achieve the best result by just cutting probes a little bit longer) vs 14 pool is because you just won't get your cannon up in time, meaning your wall-in is super-exposed if the zerg just decides to attack your pulled probes; if you 15 forge than your cannon will finish in time and the 14-pool lings will die miserably because they won't be able to break your 2-3 probe-wall, since the lings die SO fast vs cannon-fire; nevertheless, seeing your reps, you never intended to wall-off in the first place; therefore there was never a need for you to pull probes to your wall, which would've been the lost mining-time I was talking about; hence it makes sense to 15 nexus because you need to invest MUCH more in cannons than I have to afterwards; normally I'm fine with 2 cannons behind my wall....if he commits I can block with sentries and spam more asap what I don't understand is, why you don't go for 2 stargates - at least vs teching zergs; I understand that you wouldn't want it vs fast hydras, but at the very least you want 2 stargates vs muta-play; on your rep on scrap station you did your build vs mass-mutas but eventually decided to go for nearly pure stalker/sentry and you just had 2-3 phoenixes left; phoenixes COUNTER mutas, they are more cost-effective! don't give up your advantage on this part, there's no reason why you should give him the air-control back! On October 12 2010 16:38 Anihc wrote: What? I haven't seen a single infestor in any of my PvZ games in years. Replay? lol had this happen to me, is VERY annoying you need observers at strategical places vs burrow, then it's easy because on the open field you can just lift the infestors up, they die very fast; also infestor/muta can be "countered" just with mass-phoenixes....since phoenixes are more cost-effective than mutas, your phoenix-army will be much stronger than his mutas - if you constantly replenish your phoenix-count he can fungal all he wants, he just won't be able to kill you off concerning the economics, this works because infestors are REALLY gas-heavy, no zerg can go heavy on infestors and mutas | ||
|
lovewithlea
168 Posts
You got any replays or experience of 15 Nexus versus 14 hatch with a following roach/hydra push? | ||
|
Keilah
731 Posts
On October 12 2010 16:43 P00RKID wrote: After reading this, I think I will be better prepared as zerg vs this. If a contain build worked at all, it would be just take the map and macro. The following is my theorycrafting. Fast expand, enough lings to (2-6) to keep probes from scouting or putting up proxi pylons or cannons. All other larvae will be drones to saturate. Spine crawlers for harassment defense. Proxy hatch the 3rd instead of taking a 3rd. Contain with spine crawlers. Get spores when pheonix are about. Infesters are also needed when those pheonix come, but are more to help keep the contain safe from any any bust out. With a proxy hatch you can bust down a wall in instead of wasting banelings. All gas into infestor and add in some corruptors later if prottos techs to collosi to try to bust the contain. Infestors can keep P from breaking a spine crawler line, can stop pheonix, can stop voidrays (been getting NP recently a lot more, fg and queens work good too) and FG works great on ground army trying to bust a contain, as well as tons of infested terrans. The great thing about a contain vs this type of play is that it gives you time to get more units fielded while they are working on the contain, and you don't have to heavily defend each expo. Instead, the P has to take down the contain to make a push on any base, instead of easily harassing by ground when your trying to take more bases than a FE protoss. And by getting infestors, you can make a ton of infested terrans to help out the spines and even attack with them. Take a 3rd soon after you start the proxi hatch. Need all the extra gas for infestor and for teching. Just take expansions and tech for as long as you have map control. Trying to take a 3rd without a contain vs a P FE will just get harassed, or you will have to spine up all your expos, or you have to spend your larvae on units to defend it, and can't get a big enough macro lead. You want a macro lead over the P even if they FE, and a contain can get up if they have late gateways. Need just enough lings to keep probes off the map though. Of corse this is all just the way I think, havn't tested this yet. Getting it typed out helps me think and remember what I want to do when I see this. I have done hatchery contains vs forge first FE before that have worked to an extent, so I think it could work well vs this. Also, if they arn't getting a forge or gate on 12/13/14 supply, you better put that scout drone at the expo to delay, and maybe even send another drone to help it if its close positions! tldr - FE into proxy hatch contain for early map control, your defense is your harassment. Proxy hatch to break the wall with spines is an interesting idea, but you can't contain a toss with defensive structures! He just makes a pylon on the edge of the cliff and warps in his units below it. Or gets a warp prism. Or learns blink. With a second nexus he'll be able to chrono out warpgate very fast if he chooses, so don't say it's worthwhile just for the delay. Also if he notices the proxy hatch all he needs to do is make a cannon or two in front of the wall and you can't spine push him. If you make units to kill the cannon(s), you aren't making drones, and you will lose a few units as well. | ||
|
ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
| ||
|
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I know it sounds kinda weird, but when you go phoenixes, chances are extremely high that he will go roach/hydra later on....now instead of getting fast colossi just add a mothership and kill him? no overseer will live against phoenixes and after that it will simply be painful for him just theorycrafting... | ||
|
obsid
United States389 Posts
| ||
|
7mk
Germany10157 Posts
| ||
| ||
