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On October 13 2010 01:39 P00RKID wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 20:45 Keilah wrote:
Proxy hatch to break the wall with spines is an interesting idea, but you can't contain a toss with defensive structures! He just makes a pylon on the edge of the cliff and warps in his units below it. Or gets a warp prism. Or learns blink. With a second nexus he'll be able to chrono out warpgate very fast if he chooses, so don't say it's worthwhile just for the delay.
Also if he notices the proxy hatch all he needs to do is make a cannon or two in front of the wall and you can't spine push him. If you make units to kill the cannon(s), you aren't making drones, and you will lose a few units as well. Depending on the map the contain might work better or worse. Plus, you can kill proxy pylons on cliff if they are close enough to the edge and you spot them OL (using some roaches or a spinecrawler there) The contain isn't just spinecrawlers outside of his wall. You spread the creep and take all precautions to keep anything from getting out that can go over cliffs like blink and collossus, warp ins. I don't think blinking down a cliff would be a problem if you are spreading creep all the way around his main and expo area, putting a couple crawlers around the cliffs and OL to spot for cliff edge pylons (thinking LT here). Lings are great against stalkers if they are on the map without zealots, and if they are blinking to get out, they won't have the zealots. Only thing that really hard to stop from getting out is the warp prism. Need excelent scouting to stop a warp prism flying round the side of the map, especially if pheonixes have been going around blasting OL. But if the protoss is oppening pheonix after FE like in the OP, they are going to have late robo bay. And if they open robo bay, they will have even later pheonix, and you will still have good scouting measures. And as far as him putting cannons up to stop a spine push, spines + some fodder (infested terrans, lings) will be enough to bust down any forward cannons. If there is any mass stalker blink, which would be likely, you just have to throw extra minerals into more lings than crawlers. Ling infestor is a good counter vs blink stalkers (especially if 1.2 buffs FG to stop them from blinking away too)
look, i'm sorry, it's a clever idea, but no. Just think about how many spines it would take to cover the ENTIRE edge of his base where he can blink down. Being so spread out, it's impossible that any one location will be strong enough to kill a group of stalkers that want to blink down. And honestly, if you made that many spines, I'd kill you with air.
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i don't think this opening is good. it's too much of a gamble, and it basically relies on a late pool.
so you don't succeed unless zerg plays sloppy.
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On October 13 2010 21:22 MKZSlice wrote:
I was able to wall in, but I felt really weak to an early pool and felt weak to a possible bust.
if you pay attention to the scout-timings, you will/should realize that even on 4-player-maps your scout will have scouted the opponent at about 15 food; if you don't feel safe you can STILL go forge first, if his pool is very early you can even simcity on maps like LT, blistering, shakuras, jungle basin and scrap station since the first initial lings take FOREVER to take down the rocks
in comparison to forge first "blindly" you don't give up that much of time (normal forge goes up at 12) but your advantage when you feel like you could get away with nexus first will be much bigger
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On October 13 2010 18:01 lovewithlea wrote:
guess my question was just too short. so i'll write a little more to draw peoples attention :D
i'd like to know if the OP or any one else did this build facing a 14 hatch into roach/hydra +1 push.
i played quite a few games versus either fast expanding Ps or 3gate expanding Ps. what i did was my standard 14 hatch into full saturation while teching to lair and getting one or two rangeground upgrades. i then pushed with about ~10 roach 10 hydra.
if the P goes for stargate he's pretty much dead, in any other case he has to hope to not take too much damage before his colossi pops. which can delayed using 2 overseer.
well that's just my experience and probably my enemys reacted poorly - that's why i ask if some of you faced this playing a fast expo with P
I saw your earlier post but I didn't respond because, correct me if I'm wrong, several of my replays involve some type of 2 base ground-based lair aggression by the zerg? What I'm trying to say is that that it's a very common zerg response. It's most dangerous for the P when you come in right before the P manages to get warpgates, but I think if you wait for full saturation and that big of a army (10 roach 10 hydra) it may be a bit too late and P will have warpgates up, and 2 base P > 2 base Z. If you hit early enough then yes it's tough for P to defend, and the P will have to rely on scouting/putting up more cannons and forcefields to hold off until warpgates.
@sleepingdog - yea i'll agree with you 2 stargate phoenix is a good counter to muta/ling even without micro but what I see a lot is that the zerg doesn't commit to mass muta and switches to hydra, and it does take a lot more micro when you have to fight hydra with phoenix. It's a personal preference really, and I'm sure 2 gate phoenix can work, I'm just much more comfortable with my ground based army.
I think someone mentioned that I get an early round of zealots instead of stalkers to help even out my min/gas balance (I always end up with way too many minerals), and yea I've actually started doing that recently, using more zealots to help dump the minerals and having a more even stalker/zealot mix instead of mostly stalker. I'm finding that it works just as well as a mostly stalker ball, and even better if you use sentries well.
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in the two replays that come close the zergs try to outproduce you with 37workers vs ur 50+
well talkin won't bring us anywhere, i gonna show some Ps your replays and tell them to play that versus me and come back tomorrow !
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On October 11 2010 05:32 Anihc wrote:
Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up.
No they dont. Stopped reading the guide after that.
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On October 14 2010 01:26 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 05:32 Anihc wrote:
Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up.
No they dont. Stopped reading the guide after that.
Yes they do.
Wait for the lings to get in your mineral line, right click all your probes on 1 mineral patch on the edge of your mineral line, right click on the other edge when your probes are clumped up, now quickly attackmove. Voila, full surround, you can now micro low hp probes back and not lose any.
TLDR : L2p, your post was rude and ignorant.
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Sleepingdog,
While I don't disagree totally, but your argument against corruptors seem to be based on the fact that they are getting them to defend against harrass at the bases.
What if they just get 1 or 2 corruptors initially to tank/counter pheonix with the group of mutas? It really depends on how many pheonix/stalkers is typical with this build by the time Zerg can get 6-7 mutas and 2-3 corruptors. If they use the corruptors purely to defend their mutas I think it may have more merit, as now you can't rely on pheonix to shutdown their muta play. Forcing you to possibly have to tech switch or try to harass (which at this point some form of AA either by extra queens or spores should be up to make it a little less viable).
You may have more understanding on if this is a problem or not. Or if Protoss can tech switch fast enough from this if they planned on the pheonix harass after the FE.
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The strength of mutas lie in their speed and ability to both harass and take map control, threatening backstabs if the toss tries to move out. Corruptors are slower and thus don't really work well with mutas that way. I played a zerg that went corruptors with mutas against me once - I wasn't able to harass well, but he couldn't either (by the time his corruptors arrived my stalkers were there as well). Then I rolled over him with my ground army.
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I was a bit sceptical at first but I gave your strat a try in a few games.. and I was amazed! I actually never felt that safe vs Zerg.. it's usually not my best matchup because I don't like playing against mutalisk harass / contain but the early expand makes most of my enemies so far want to try something cheesy/ all-inish to end the game quickly. Or they expand and rely on masses of hydras + possibly roaches instead and I feel much more comfortable against these strategies from the zerg player.
The cannons in your main and at your natural as well als clustered buildings and a Stargate opening with a few phoenix also make it very unlikely that the zerg will attempt to go mutaling- that's a hudge plus for me, I even consinder making this build my standard opening vs Z. Also nydus worms seem to be less of a threat, compared to a "standard forge/wall-off FE". Even if there's just like 3 cannons in your main they will help a lot and support your army in a battle (If you place your buildings right).
So far, im not having any trouble in the early game with the 15 Nexus build. Early lings can be easily killed by 1 cannon + a few probes and if they commit to a giant ling rush it can be gamebraking.. in your favour. In 1 game i lost like 10 probes + 2 cannons + 1 pylon to a big ling/bling rush and still I won with ease. He expanded very late and I had a hudge eco advantage.
I played like 8 PvZ with this strategy and I only lost the first game.. and that was in the late midgame after I made some bad decisions.
In most of the games the Zerg tried to kill me really fast with early attacks but they didn't to enough damage to kill me. Once you hold of a big attack with tons of zerglings the game is pretty much over since you have a really BIG advantage now. They didn't expand fast enough. Spent too many larvae on units instead of drones, etc. They will have a really hard time coming back into the game. Btw I'm at ~1150pts in Diamond right now.
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On October 14 2010 00:43 Anihc wrote:
@sleepingdog - yea i'll agree with you 2 stargate phoenix is a good counter to muta/ling even without micro but what I see a lot is that the zerg doesn't commit to mass muta and switches to hydra, and it does take a lot more micro when you have to fight hydra with phoenix. It's a personal preference really, and I'm sure 2 gate phoenix can work, I'm just much more comfortable with my ground based army.
perfectly true of course, maybe I didn't write it correctly - I was ONLY referring to the situation where the zerg sticks with mutas!
currently I like to get 1 stargate for a very early phoenix and if he does NOT go for super-fast hydras I add a 2nd one to increase my harassment-effectiveness;
nevertheless once I see he tech-switches (scouting is obviously extremely easy with phoenixes) I start colossi-tech ASAP; normally I've thrown down the robo in the process because I'm expecting the tech-switch anyway;
again mass-phoenix was a suggestion ONLY if zerg sticks with mass-muta; I was referring to one specific game of yours....on scrap station: you FEd, harassed with phoenixes but got more and more overwhelmed by mass-muta; and then you decided to just mass stalkers and killed him in the battle at the gold (I think); my critique was directed only at this specific situation: where zerg has no plans to switch away from mutas whatsoever there "should" be no reason for you to cut back on phoenixes;
Sleepingdog,
While I don't disagree totally, but your argument against corruptors seem to be based on the fact that they are getting them to defend against harrass at the bases.
What if they just get 1 or 2 corruptors initially to tank/counter pheonix with the group of mutas? It really depends on how many pheonix/stalkers is typical with this build by the time Zerg can get 6-7 mutas and 2-3 corruptors. If they use the corruptors purely to defend their mutas I think it may have more merit, as now you can't rely on pheonix to shutdown their muta play. Forcing you to possibly have to tech switch or try to harass (which at this point some form of AA either by extra queens or spores should be up to make it a little less viable).
You may have more understanding on if this is a problem or not. Or if Protoss can tech switch fast enough from this if they planned on the pheonix harass after the FE.
tbh few zergs went corruptors vs me in my last games where I did this; many switched into hydras, some added infestors and where quite surprised how badly phoenixes owned even without the ability to micro
the core problem of corruptors is, that they are SO slow, that this puts zerg in a quite similar position to protoss when defending mutas with blink stalkers; it's very stable at 2 bases, gets much more difficult on 3 bases and is pretty much impossible on 4 bases; if you force zerg into corruptors, one thing is for sure: he will NOT turn up at your base, because a) he has fewer mutas and b) the mutas he has will be torn apart by your phoenixes if he dares; this means you can take a 3rd base quite safely;
on the other hand, zerg will have much more problems establishing a safe third; you are perfectly right, if zerg goes corruptor-heavy your phoenixes won't do much damage; nevertheless this pins him in his base(s) completely; if he wants a third he pretty much HAS to split his corruptors up, only exception may be LT (natural + gold are close; but I have never played vs muta/corruptor on LT lol....so dunno how it would turn out); phoenixes out"fly" corruptors so heavily it's not even funny; also we are talking about air, so there are no cliffs/etc. where phoenixes could bump into; if you micro accurately, avoiding corruptors should never be difficult;
if the zerg, however, gets corruptors to straight attack you together with mutas, you obviously have to get stalkers: nevertheless this will turn out bad for zerg because mutas SUCK really hard in lower numbers vs stalkers; mutas are supposed to be annoying, but are not supposed to actually "fight" - which they have to, because hit/run is impossible if they want to "stay covered" from corruptors; they basicly can only move at the same speed as corruptors; another thing to mention, if they really go corruptor/muta they won't have even a tiny bit of gas left for anything else - this means, if you go phoenix/stalker, you fight WAY more cost-effective, because stalkers are much more mineral-heavy;
you said 7 muta 3 corruptor? this is exactly 1000 gas....one grand gas just for this bunch! I only tested it with 3 phoenixes + 7 stalkers, it was a hard ownage; and I didn't even add 1-2 sentries for guardian shield lol;
TL; DR: if he adds corruptors to his mutas he won't be able to harass because you can produce the phoenix/stalker-combo way more cost-effectively; if he adds corruptors he will have troubles taking his third and will be in a world of kaka when he even wants a fourth (4 phoenixes suffice to straight-up kill one queen with one lift; just imagine how this would turn out later with mass-phoenixes and zerg spread over 4 bases....);
corruptors obviously means you can't go for colossi....but you can go for pretty much everything else because there is no way on god's green earth that he can ALSO get hive-tech-units quickly (given that you challenged his third); I never meant you to stay on phoenixes "only" but suggested that you shouldn't give up air-control easily - especially not vs corruptors since forcing him to produce more and more and more of them will turn out really bad for him unless you are stupid enough to tech to colossi of course
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I love this build! Double the chronoboost too! Thank you for posting this.
I've yet to test it extensively against my zerg practice partners, but we played a few games and the 15 Nexus felt pretty safe. I tried a few different follow-ups, mostly getting 6 gates up with +1 attack and teching on the Council path. More testing needed for me, but I can see it becoming my standard PvZ build.
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my opinion on this build as a 1500+ zerg:
works great on maps that favor protoss anyway, which is most of the map pool (blistering, LT, jungle basin, DQ, steppes.
on maps where i can double expand and get my creep spread going, i tend to think i can overpower protoss (xel'naga, metal, shakuras) i mean, if you're going 15 nex into phoenix, i can just drone soooooooo much, you still won't be able to catch up to me in workers even with 2 chrono'd nexuses (nexii?)
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You don't have to catch the Z, because Z can't kill a P deathball. We only need 2 bases to make a deathball.
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On October 14 2010 03:42 AnAngryDingo wrote:
on maps where i can double expand and get my creep spread going, i tend to think i can overpower protoss (xel'naga, metal, shakuras) i mean, if you're going 15 nex into phoenix, i can just drone soooooooo much, you still won't be able to catch up to me in workers even with 2 chrono'd nexuses (nexii?)
kinda disagree - imo it depends a lot more whether or not I can defend my natural safely; on xel naga it's a pain - you can harass me with just a couple of lings pretty effectively, forcing me to get a ton of cannons;
on shakuras on the other hand I place my pylon down the ramp and wall of the bigger natural-ramp....normally I feel safe with just 2 cannons and get a handful of sentries to block banelings; on shakuras I can get phoenixes EXTREMELY fast and your third will be very spread away which makes you the more vulnerable to phoenixes
actually shakuras has written "15 nexus me" all over it, defending the natural is very easy and - more importantly - there's no third in the close proximity, meaning you can't produce a ball of hydras and cover everything; you will be vulnerable somewhere, no matter what; and once I've killed 2-3 queens + overlords + drones and got my tech in line you will get in trouble at some point
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No wall in loses to delayed mass ling all ins which are more common than they probably should be around the 1300 diamond level and not because the lings kill you but because you cant shut down a run by when you decide to move out. I think the 14/15 nexus builds are strongest on maps that do provide some natural barriers that allow you to wall in for obvious reasons that the OP seems to even recognize. While I understand and know from personal experience that to survive a zerg with any build you dont have to wall off, I think since zerg has no real ability to seige (Broodlords are their best seige option) you need to keep them at your chokes for as long as possible. To let them walk up your ramp and into your sim city you are wasting your advantage of even having a choke seige options.
One big advantage to the OPs approach is that it makes muta harass much easier to deal with later on. Given that he is promoting a 6 gate stargate followup I would say that its mostly unnecessary (very seldom have zergs gone muts or continued with muts after spotting the phoenix).
Whatever your preference in terms of base set-up expanding at 15 is both possible and safe in some situations. I personally prefer to go gate - > forge - > 1 cannon at their natural - > expand in the early 20's food-wise, then drop 5 more gates and a twilight for blink. I push at their natural once blink finishes and bring a proxy probe to reinforce. If they've already taken a third its pretty much GG. If they haven't taken a third... its almost GG, if not GG. Ive executed the 6 gate FE with a stargate in there and can vouch for the fact that its strong. Hydras arent as big of a concern as you might think. You have to remember you are producing from 6 gates and with the way targeting works as long as there is something for their hydras to shoot on the ground, they wont attack the phoenix on their own. Its hardly worthwhile for the zerg to micro hydras to kill the phoenix and if they do they will likely lose the fight (alot of wasted DPS due to overshooting and target switching, attack cooldowns, etc.).
Midgame phoenix still give you map control though, and I think thats an important consideration in this MU. I personally believe that these 6 gate openers are the perfect way to safely get to carrier tech, which is something every protoss struggles with. The pressure it applies more often than not kills a zerg outright. If it doesnt kill him it sets him back severely and/or protects your expansion through aggression. You can also easily take a 3rd with that amount of units. For my money against zerg id much rather get to carriers with blink stalkers over any zealot/archon end-game army. If corruptors are a big concern to you then its probably very late game. and its not necessarily a bad idea to throw down an archives and just get some feedbacks in your mix... you dont evne need storm. You just need to feedback the corruptors so your blink stalkers can kill a couple, the carriers will only die if hes mass corruptor, in which case you've already won.
Sorry if I derailed a bit
TLDR: I still think its better to wall off than sim city this strat and it should be no harder to defend. I simply wouldn't recommend this build on certain maps (like blistering) because its so hard to take a 3rd. I think a 3 gate pressure into expand or a wall at natural into 6 gate pressure - > third... are better options for macro players.
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Since you are walling off so late, how do you deal with early pool? I'm not talking about 14 pool, I'm talking about anywhere between 6 and 11 pool.
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Seems like an interesting opening but, wouldn't 10 pool speedling, kidna rip you to shreds?
Do you have any experience or replays holding off something like this?
Im thinkings:
You will not have a cannons everywhere, and you will not have a wall. He can simply hit you where the cannons are not.
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On October 14 2010 06:17 Chairman Ray wrote:
Since you are walling off so late, how do you deal with early pool? I'm not talking about 14 pool, I'm talking about anywhere between 6 and 11 pool.
Read the guide, he says if you see a 10 or 6 pool you need to abandon this build and most likely go gateway/forge, and that you scout on your 9 pylon for this reason.
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You will die to any pool first build.
Against a 14 pool, you might have to pull probes to stall for the first cannon to finish (depending on map/rush distance), but it should not do enough damage to put you at a disadvantage. Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up. If you’re losing to a 6 pool then this build is not your problem, it’s your micro/building placement that needs work. Same story against a 10 pool, although honestly in my past 50 games against zerg I haven’t been 10 pooled a single time.
You probably just dont go nexus first if they do a pool a whole lot earlier than 13.
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EPT
