15 nexus is fairly mainstream now in PvZ, and since you can transition into just about anything with this build, I don’t feel like it’s feasible to write a comprehensive guide about it. However, this thread still deserves an update, and I feel that there are still some big misconceptions about this build, so I hope I can clear some things up.
“15 Nexus” is not an entirely accurate name for this build, since you shouldn’t always blindly place your nexus at 15 supply. The reason why it’s popularly referred to as 15 nex stems from the 14 cc or 12/13/14 nex of BW. In essence, the only defining feature of this build is that you’re placing your nexus before a gateway or forge. Getting your nexus at 15 supply versus 18 supply doesn’t really change this build.
I recommend scouting with your probe that builds the pylon. If you see a 6-11 pool, you’ll have to abandon this build and get a forge up first. Against a 14 pool, 15 nexus 15 forge is probably your safest play. If you scout the zerg going hatch first, you won’t have to cut probes and can place the nexus at 17 supply, chronoing your probes 3 times before the nexus. We’ve even seen GuineaPig build a 2nd pylon before the nexus in GSL. The difference is small – the point is that you don’t need to cut probes if the zerg doesn’t pool first. After placing your nexus, you normally will also have time to start your gateway before the forge. It all depends on map/rush distance, and how late your opponent starts his pool.
Vs 6-11 pool: 9 pylon Forge whenever you scout the early pool
Vs 14 pool: 9 pylon chrono probes twice 15 nexus (cut probe production temporarily) 15 forge chrono probes again 17 pylon 18 cannon/gateway (if you don’t see the zerg saving up larva, feel free to get gateway first. If you see larva being saved for 4-6 lings, you’ll want that cannon first)
Vs hatch first: 9 pylon chrono probes 3 times 17 nexus (don’t cut probes) 18 pylon 19 gateway 19 forge
3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
So when should you go 15 nex and when should you go 3 gate FE? It just depends on your personal preference/playstyle, and also on the map; obviously, it’s much easier to go 15 nex on a map like LT than it is on a map like xel naga. But more importantly, you need to consider what your mid-game plan is. If you want to do a strong mid-game attack (ex. 6 gate), it might be a good idea to do a 3 gate FE and get a lot of sentries early on so you’ll have a lot of energy saved up for that attack. If you want to do some sort of 2 stargate into a gas-heavy death ball, it makes sense to go 15 nex with a bunch of cannons since you'll have a lot of extra minerals anyway.
The same logic also applies to 1 gate FE – it’s just somewhat of a middle ground between 15 nex and 3 gate FE.
However, FFE (forge fast expand) doesn’t really have any advantages over 15 nex, and I don’t see why anyone would FFE since 15 nexus beats it hands down economically, and you’re still perfectly safe from 14 pool. The only time you would FFE is if you intend to do some pylon/cannon ramp block, or you’re playing on steppes (and that has more to do with the layout of ramp/natural more so than the short rush distance, I’ll explain more below).
Right before patch 1.12 came out, people were afraid that the roach range buff would completely kill protoss FE. Hopefully, no one still believes that. However, it seems that most people still think that 15 nex is only viable on a very limited number of maps. I would like to argue that while some maps are better suited for 15 nex than others, it is still viable on almost every map in the current map pool (with the exception being DQ).
Please note that just because I say it’s viable doesn’t mean I think that it’s the best build for that map. I’ll agree with anyone that there are stronger alternatives than 15 nex on maps like blistering and xel naga, but it is still perfectly doable.
Why exactly does the roach range increase not matter that much? Cannons behind a wall of gate/forge/core still defends well against roaches. Roaches still will not be able to snipe your wall, since roach range of 4 + building size of 3 = 7, the range of cannons (maybe at certain angles you can get 1 or 2 roaches to shoot the buildings out of range of cannons but that gives you plenty of time to make more defenses).
So for maps like LT, shakuras, and steppes, it’s pretty easy to defend just behind 1 wall. What about metal and xel’naga, where the natural is wide open? Or, blistering, scrap, and jungle basin, where there’s a backdoor entrance? The answer is to build 2 sets of cannons, one set for each side or entrance. What’s important to understand here is that you only need additional cannons (i.e. more than 1) if you scout some kind of early pressure, and that if you do scout early pressure or some kind of all-in, you can always make enough cannons to stop it, even if you have to defend 2 different locations. The zerg can force you to make 8 cannons and then not commit to an attack, but you’re not necessarily behind because while he’s been using his larva on roaches you’ve been chronoing probes out of 2 nexii.
Always play it safe though. As soon as you see something dangerous, whether its ling speed, banelings, or roaches, stop everything and get more cannons up. I also like to completely wall off when I see an attack coming – 100 or 150 minerals is a small price to pay to protect from ling or roach run-bys.
The main idea for building placement early game is to make a wall with your nexus, forge, and gateway (and additional pylon(s) if you have to), and have 1 cannon behind it that can protect both your ramp and your natural. I like to make my first pylon at the top of my ramp (except scrap), so that if I scout a 6 pool or something I can instead just completely wall off the top of my ramp with a forge and gateway. Then I get a cannon behind it, and this pretty much shuts down 6 pool even if you don’t put down your forge until 14 or 15 supply.
Here are map specific examples (I’ll try to put up some screen shots soon):
LT/Shakuras – these are easy, and the best maps for opening 15 nex on.
Metal/Xel naga – the wide open natural (more so for xel naga) makes it a bit tricky. Prepare a set of cannons at the bottom of your ramp and another set by your natural geysers. You’ll need an extra building (core or 2nd gate) to finish your wall on xel naga.
Scrap – I prefer building cannons at the natural instead of on the cliff overlooking the destructible rocks, since that spot gives you a much better defensive position. Also, then the cliff becomes one less spot you have to worry about nyduses.
Jungle Basin/Blistering – not much to say about this one, make cannons at your front and also behind the rocks.
Steppes – it’s not worth it to 15 nex here, since you can’t place 1 cannon that can protect ramp, natural nexus/minerals, and wall. Also the natural choke is too wide to effectively completely wall off against run-bys.
Although scouting is always important, it is absolutely critical for this build to always have an idea of what the zerg is doing early on. If you build too many cannons and he just makes drones, you will be behind. If you don’t build enough cannons and he attempts a bust, you will lose. Most of the times I lose are because of poor scouting or great scouting denial by the zerg. For example, what I fear most are zergs who go quick speedlings to deny scouting, forcing me to make more cannons, while instead just mass droning.
Scouting can be especially tough since you don’t have early stalkers to poke at the zerg which generally gives you information when you do a standard gate core opening. My 2 favorite scouting tricks are to hide a probe somewhere on the map before lings get out to scout at a later time, or to send 2 probes out, using the first to lure zerglings away while the second one sneaks by or goes a different route.
And always keep scouting. Zerg can create an army almost instantly, so just because he only has drones 1 minute doesn’t mean he can’t have 20 roaches in your base the next. Here’s a short list of things to possibly look out for:
Lair timing: fast lair = watch out for nydus or muta, or just some kind of aggression in general
Expo timing: lack of a natural by the time your initial probe is chased away by lings = all-in. The existence of a 3rd = macro
Buildings: roach warren and baneling nest are obvious, but other things to look for are evo chambers (generally signaling upgrades for a macro game), and extractors (0-1 extractors usually means he’s just droning for now)
What units are popping out of eggs: sometimes all you see before your probe dies to chasing lings and a queen is an egg hatching at his natural, but that can tell you a lot. Since zerg usually only builds drones or army units at a time, even if all you see are 2 lings hatching you can assume that he has or will have a lot more.
UPDATE: 10/18/10 (post 1.12 patch) - after a few games with the new patch it seems like this build still works just as well on most maps. I've added a few new reps. LT is definitely the best for this build now. On maps like metal and xel naga where there isn't a narrow choke at your natural, you kinda have to build 2 sets of cannons, 1 defending your ramp area and 1 defending the other side of your natural (see rep on metal). Same thing applies to maps with destructible rocks like blistering and jungle, you build 1 set of cannons by choke/ramp and another by the rocks. Trying to cannon the mineral line of both bases doesn't work anymore though, so for people reading this guide for the first time, ignore anything that talks about cannoning the mineral line of both bases. I'll update the entire guide as soon as I get the chance.
This is quite a lengthy guide, so I tried to break it up into sections with spoilers. Thanks for reading! Also I know that patch 1.2 can potentially have a big impact on this build, but please let's keep that out of discussion until the changes are confirmed.
Fast expand in PvZ is a popular and strong opening that has been employed by Protoss players since the beginning of Starcraft. However, going nexus before forge/gateway seems to be one of the less common of its many variants, some of which include 2 gate FE, forge FE, and 1 gate sentry FE. There have been previous threads on this topic, but in general it has been dismissed as a build that only works on some maps, is risky, and easily countered if scouted early. Hopefully with this guide I can clear up some of these mistaken beliefs and demonstrate how a nexus first FE is a safe and versatile opening on virtually any map.
The gist of this build is to expand at 15 supply, and defend with mostly cannons until you have warpgates. It’s not as risky as it may seem, and gives you a better economical advantage than a forge FE or 1 gate sentry FE due to the earlier nexus.
First, let me address a few common misconceptions about this build:
You will die to any pool first build. Against a 14 pool, you might have to pull probes to stall for the first cannon to finish (depending on map/rush distance), but it should not do enough damage to put you at a disadvantage. Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up. If you’re losing to a 6 pool then this build is not your problem, it’s your micro/building placement that needs work. Same story against a 10 pool, although honestly in my past 50 games against zerg I haven’t been 10 pooled a single time.
Early aggression punishes this build. I fear zergs who macro off 3 bases much more than those who try to all-in me and break my defenses. Cannons are much stronger in SC2 than they were in BW, at least against early zerg units. Couple that with smart building placement and you’re safe against anything that comes (banelings, roaches) before your warpgates start kicking in, as long as you’re not greedy and don’t skimp on cannons. Warpgates will come online and you’ll have stalkers in time to fend off most 2 base hydra builds.
This build only works on maps with easily defendable naturals like LT. Sure, this build is stronger on maps like LT (where you can easily wall your natural), but it is perfectly viable on maps like delta quadrant and blistering sands as well. How do you wall on those maps? You don’t. Contrary to what you might think, it’s not hard at all to defend 2 bases as protoss. On many maps, instead of making 1 big wall at the natural, I simply cannon up the mineral line in both main and natural. If you suspect any sort of early attack, you can prepare enough cannons at both bases to defend either one. Getting your nexus so early puts you far enough ahead economically that spending a little extra on a few more cannons won’t hurt. The other benefit to cannoning both bases is that you’re protected against nydus and muta play as well, both of which are common reactions against this build.
You probably don’t believe me right now, and if I were to theorycraft I wouldn’t believe myself either. But watch the replays, and try it out yourself – you may be surprised.
So assuming that you’ve safely set up your 2 bases and successfully defended them against early attacks, then what? The answer is: whatever suits you. The most common follow-up is a quick 6 warpgate attack, which is great for defending against 2 base roach/hydra, or if the zerg went double expand, you can expose a timing window before his 3 base economy fully kicks in. Transitioning into a regular robo style PvZ or even dual robo is great as well – your push will come much later (so you won’t be able to challenge his 3rd base), but your ball will be much stronger with colossi/immortal.
My personal favorite route to take though, and the one that I’ll be discussing during the rest of this guide, is 1 stargate phoenix followed by 6 warpgates. While this attack hits a bit later than just a regular 6 warpgate, phoenix is great for scouting, shutting down muta builds (I don’t know about you but I cannot beat muta unless I have phoenix) and picking off overlords/queens and possibly forcing him to invest in spores. If timed correctly, you’ll put a dent into his macro right as you come in with your 6 warpgate army.
… and that’s it! I’m serious. Where to go from here really depends on what your opponent is doing. Even the BO I use in the replays vary greatly from game to game, so I highly suggest you learn this build based on “game flow” rather than memorizing what building to build at what supply. Roughly, you’ll want to do something like this:
Forge Pylon Cannon Additional cannon(s) as needed, see IV. EARLY GAME Gateway Gas Core, zealot (when gateway is done) 2nd gas Additional pylons as needed Stargate (when core is done) Warpgate tech, stalker/sentry as gas allows 3rd and 4th gas +1 attack, followed by +1 armor Gateways until a total of 6-8 (depending on how good your macro is. 6 is optimal, but my macro sucks so I get 7. If your macro is really bad get 8.)
Against a 14 pool, you’ll want to temporarily halt probe production after placing your nexus on 15 to get a forge at 15 as well. Against a hatch first build, you can continue chronoed probe production, get a 2nd pylon, gateway, and gas before you place your forge. Against a 6 or 10 pool you’ll want to abandon this build, start your forge ASAP (that’s why you placed your first pylon in your main), get a cannon up, and switch to another build like a 4 warpgate rush.
Note that the entire time you are constantly producing probes and using your chronos on probe production. Some people claim that you need to cut probes at certain points to make this work, but you really don’t. The only time when you will cut probes is against a 14 pool or if you scout an all-in and need to immediately place more cannons. After you place your core, then you can save your chronos to use on phoenix, warpgate tech, and forge upgrades.
Regarding building placement, I’d recommend walling in your natural with forge/gate on LT, metal, xel’naga, and steppes, and not walling but cannoning both bases on all other maps. This means that your first pylon and forge should go at your natural for the former, and in your main next to your initial nexus for the latter. Some people like walling in on scrap station and placing a cannon on the cliff overlooking the backdoor to your natural, but I find that that cannon can be sniped so I don’t bother with a wall on scrap either.
The key to the early game is knowing how many cannons to put down. You want to keep yourself safe from all-in attempts, but you don’t want to waste your money on useless cannons if the zerg opts for a quick double expand. Scouting is crucial, but it can be very difficult especially if the zerg denies you with lings that camp outside your base. Starting with 1 cannon at each base (or 2 behind a walled-in natural), I’ll put down a 2nd cannon at each base if I see a warning sign – the lack of an expansion by the time my scouting probe dies (probably 1 base play), a large number of lings (10+), any number of speedlings, or any number of roaches. I’ll add a 3rd or even 4th cannon at each base if I see an even bigger warning sign – a large number of speedlings (15+), large group of roaches (5+), or any number of banelings. If at any time you get uneasy or simply star sense an incoming all-in, don’t hesitate to drop more cannons. And of course, pull probes whenever necessary. You’re already ahead with your early expansion, it’s almost always better to be safe.
In order to detect these warning signs in time, don’t get discouraged if you send a scouting probe out and it gets killed immediately. Keep trying! Sacrifice a zealot if you need to. Sometimes you can get a probe out just far enough to see a large force being rallied, or banelings morphing in. A few extra seconds of notice can make all the difference. Another strategy you can try is to send a 2nd scouting probe out of your base before he gets lings and hide it somewhere on the map, to use as a scout later.
When you get your core up, get a stalker or 2 out if the opponent still has overlords in your base or if he has roaches. Otherwise, start making sentries – force fields are essential in stopping larger attacks off of a 2 base zerg that hit before you have warpgates.
One thing to watch out for is nydus play, especially if you’ve walled-in your natural and only have cannons there. Put pylons around the edges of your base, and patrol probes/zealots if you have to. I usually place a cannon or 2 in my main even if I’ve walled-in my natural just in case I let a nydus slip by unnoticed, my wall gets busted, or he does something crazy like 1 base muta.
When your stargate is up, immediately start chronoing out phoenix. I like to start the harass as soon as I have 2, and will continue making phoenix until I have 4-6 total. Target overlords/queens, and if you see any stray hydras, those are excellent targets as well. I actually avoid sniping drones with my phoenix – I’d rather save the energy to kill hydras (remember that hydras are light, so phoenix are really good against them).
By now you should have your warpgate production up. My preferred unit composition is stalker heavy with some sentries/zealots, although you’ll want more zealots if he incorporates lings in his army. You should be able to gauge with your phoenix fleet the approximate size of the zerg army – if it’s rather small and all 3 of his mining bases look well-saturated, now is good time to attack (I’m assuming he’ll be on 3 bases by now. If for some reason he’s still on 2… well 2 base protoss > 2 base zerg. Attack if you think you can overpower him, otherwise just take your 3rd, tech up, and deny him any expansion attempts). If he has poor saturation and a big army, then it’s your judgment call. Wait until you have +1/+1 forge upgrades (which should finish soon if you’ve at least used a few chronos on it) before engaging. Or alternatively, poke around but don’t commit, while teching up and expanding yourself. Also, if he has tried to start a 4th base, a good rule of thumb is to always kill the latest expansion off first.
As you move out, start your robo, twilight council, and a 3rd base. That way if your attack somehow fails, you’re not going to be terribly behind on tech or economy. Also, for those of you who really like blink stalker play, it’s not a bad idea to get that twilight council up early on to have blink ready when you attack.
Lastly, don’t forget about your phoenix – hopefully you didn’t lose them during harass. They are great support units and can either be used to pick off hydras during your attack, or to sneak around to his base and kill overlords/queens while your ground armies engage. Another great thing you can do with phoenix is to send them into his main to make him bring hydra back to defend, while simultaneously attacking his 3rd with your ground army.
A critical part of this strategy and its effectiveness at defending against early zerg pressure is your building placement. A few key things to remember:
- Space cannons apart! The most dangerous attacks are those that come with banelings. You don’t want them to blow up 2 cannons for the price of one.
- Try to reduce the surface area of your cannons so that less lings can attack them at a time. Place them adjacent to your nexus, other buildings, or minerals/gas.
- Avoid walling with pylons – use gateways/forge/core instead. Banelings blow through a pylon wall too easily. Note that this mostly applies to only a wall-in at your natural. If you’re cannoning both bases, you won’t have enough buildings and you’ll have to use pylons to fill in some gaps.
- Make sure you have overlapping pylons. I know it’s really basic, but I don’t know how many times I’ve lost because the zerg managed to snipe a key pylon powering half my cannons.
Here’s an example of cannoning a mineral line, which you'll want to do in both main and natural on delta quadrant and maps with destructible rocks like blistering. On LT/metal/steppes, it's better to just wall and cannon your natural and not have to cannon your main. I won’t include examples of walling at your natural, there are tons of other threads and examples out there for that. + Show Spoiler +
I don’t really think there are any “hard” counters to this build. 6 pool and 10 pool will force you to abandon it (so in a sense they are hard counters), but you will be able to defend with a cannon and still be economically ahead. When I first began experimenting with this build I lost a lot to 2 base early aggression, especially those that hit right before I get warpgates up. However, I have become much better at defending against them, and ironically now I have a much higher success rate with this build on maps that have harder to defend naturals, forcing me to cannon both bases and leading the zerg to opt for early aggression to try to break one of them instead of going for the macro game and getting a 3rd.
In my experience the most optimal response to this build is to double expand right away and macro up a 3 base hydra/roach army. Getting some early speedlings to deny scouting and force more cannons up helps to delay the protoss. It’s also a good idea to get a gold expansion, since if the zerg tries to saturate all 3 bases with drones there is no way he’ll be able to stop the mid-game 6 gate attack.
As far as all-ins go, again although I don’t think it’s the optimal answer, if you’re going to all-in as zerg a delayed baneling bust off of 2 bases is probably your best bet. Probes/cannons are very strong when both armies are small, so 1 base play will not get you very far. Even if you manage to kill a good number of probes, you will be behind unless you manage to take out an entire base. Early roaches by themselves are horrible due to their limited range. A quick nydus is great if the protoss player walled at the natural and doesn’t scout it. Don’t try 2 base hydras, by the time you get a decent amount the protoss will have warpgate tech and enough stalkers to stop it. Mutas will get countered by phoenix.
Lots of things I do in these games contradict what I say in this guide. That’s because I’ve been experimenting with this build for a few weeks now, and a lot of the replays are from pretty early on. Strategies are constantly evolving, and it’s a continuous learning process even for me.
You might also notice that my micro is sloppy, and my macro is even worse. I shoot up past 1k many times, and still beat players better than me. You don’t need to be a 200 apm korean amateur to pull this build off.
- I do not claim to have invented this build. I’m fully aware many other people are/have been using it.
- I do not claim to have gone 20-0 with this build. I’ve lost plenty of times with it and it certainly has its weaknesses, but I do think that it’s still a strong build on all maps.
- I hope that the replays, comprehensiveness, and organization of this guide are enough to give this guide all the credentials it needs. I hate threads starting with “I’m a xxxx diamond P player blah blah,” but I know many people want to know anyway so to save you the trouble of looking me up, I’m currently 2100+ and have been on the NA top 200 list ever since it came out, and in the most recent one I was ranked #61.
X. TL;DR
1. Nexus before forge is safe against 14 pool on all maps and is almost always economically better than forge FE. Abandon this build and drop a forge first if you scout any sort of earlier pool.
2. On LT, metal, steppes, maybe xel naga – wall with forge/gate at natural and cannon behind wall. On DQ – do not wall. Instead, cannon the mineral line of both main and natural. On all other maps (maps with destructible rocks leading to either main or natural) – I strongly recommend not walling and cannoning both bases, but it’s debatable.
3. Obviously LT and metal are the best maps for this build. But it still works on all maps.
Interesting... I normally build my first pylon below the ramp so I can have a better simcity vs roach pressure and cut out the main base cannons, but your way seems like it can actually defend vs a 6 pool.
If the zerg went 14 hatch, then scouted your nexus and made another hatch between 20 and 40 supply, then I think that might be a build order loss for you.
Have you tried sending a 2nd scouting probe to check for expo? If it doesn't see a hatchery, you can make a ton of cannons to prepare for the 1 base all in while patrolling the zealot in your main to check for nydus.
I found an archon-based build that can follow up from this and deal with mutas pretty well without making a stargate... heres the replays
I also beat Dhalism with it but his rating wasn't as high as when Minigun beat him with his fast phoenix build.
Thanks a lot for the great guide. I've been having a lot of trouble in PvZ recently, hopefully I can employ some of the techniques here to not auto-lose when I roll against a Z.
Nice guide. Does feel a little risky to me (esp from all the games I have seen of dimaga going all in baneling against something like it). But if you dont lose right away(and I dont think you do for sure), your definatly far ahead.
So against 6 pool you build a forge at your ramp and it finishes in time for you to wall off with a cannon? You would still lose if it was a 4 player map and you didnt scout it in time correct?
Wait. How are we supposed to wall off with a forge when we make the first pylon in our main? You stressed that against a player going pool first, you have to get the forge up asap for cannons. Even your build order states to get forge after nexus (unless z went hatch first).Like in broodwar, I think it would be better to build everything at your natural and just pull probes to your ramp if a 6 pool is coming (though that would be better on maps like lt when your is more general purpose.) Perhaps if you suspect some kind of attack on your main, you can place your second pylon in your main? This would be ready way in advance save for anything incredibly cheesy.
On October 11 2010 06:02 iamke55 wrote: If the zerg went 14 hatch, then scouted your nexus and made another hatch between 20 and 40 supply, then I think that might be a build order loss for you.
Have you tried sending a 2nd scouting probe to check for expo? If it doesn't see a hatchery, you can make a ton of cannons to prepare for the 1 base all in while patrolling the zealot in your main to check for nydus.
I found an archon-based build that can follow up from this and deal with mutas pretty well without making a stargate... heres the replays
It's not a build order loss if he reacts after scouting my nexus lol. But yes, as I say in the counters section, double expoing is the correct zerg response and what I have the most trouble against. I still do fairly well though, and I have several replays against double expoing zergs.
Yes, I already suggested sending a 2nd scouting probe out in the early game section.
Some people have had success with archons against mutas, but I still don't like them because mutas give the zerg map control and you'll have to invest in a lot of D to defend against backstabs as you move out. That being said going twilight followed by templar tech is certainly a great transition from a 15 nex opening and will work.
On October 11 2010 07:00 TheFinalWord wrote: So against 6 pool you build a forge at your ramp and it finishes in time for you to wall off with a cannon? You would still lose if it was a 4 player map and you didnt scout it in time correct?
No, you build a forge next to your nexus because that's where you place your first pylon... I have been able to hold off a 6 pool scouting the zerg last on a 4 player map, starting my forge at around the same time lings are already out. Scout it any earlier and you'll be even more ahead.
On October 11 2010 07:08 Ichabod wrote: Interesting strategy, nice to see that its working at highest levels too, with responses to a lot of normal strategies.
How much luck have you had versus a 5-roach rush?
Roaches are pretty horrible against this build/cannons in general. Early aggression off of 2 base > early aggression off of 1 base against this build. 5-roach rush is probably the worst thing you can do against it.
On October 11 2010 07:24 da_head wrote: Wait. How are we supposed to wall off with a forge when we make the first pylon in our main? You stressed that against a player going pool first, you have to get the forge up asap for cannons. Even your build order states to get forge after nexus (unless z went hatch first).Like in broodwar, I think it would be better to build everything at your natural and just pull probes to your ramp if a 6 pool is coming (though that would be better on maps like lt when your is more general purpose.) Perhaps if you suspect some kind of attack on your main, you can place your second pylon in your main? This would be ready way in advance save for anything incredibly cheesy.
Sorry for being unclear, forge goes in my main and I don't use it to wall with. Placing your first pylon at your natural and using forge to wall as well is fine too if you prefer (for some reason I get 6 pooled a lot lol)
So to defend the natural you will have only cannons without a wall-in of some sort basically? This makes it too weak to baneling pressure imo. There is only 1 replay against fast banelings in the pack and there the banelings weren't used to well. What I'd fear even more would be a smart zerg that cancels zergling speed and throws up the baneling nest ASAP, using the saved gas for just mass baneling. With the dual base setup it's simply not possible to defend good baneling usage without having some proper wall-ins. For example the game on blistering sands vs the one guy that did go reasonable fast baneling he would have won if he hit the expo as it had only 1 pylon.
15 nexus is a good build just not one for all maps imo. On the new maps with the easy to defend natural it's fantastic as you can just 9 pylon at the ramp, scout to see if its a 6 pool or not and follow with 15 nexus into wall-off. On LT it might be good too but still a bit risky in case you happen to find the zerg last.
Also I think it's important to note 15 nexus into forge + 2 cannons isn't much economically better then a FE with fast sentries. By getting the fast nexus you cut alot of probes / don't use chronoboost on your nexus early on AND you spend quite a big investment 450 for 1 forge and 2 cannons in stuff that won't help you be aggresive. On the 2 new maps I definately do this build as there is a good chance you can get away without the forge (or only need 1 cannon) but on other maps it's not that great imo. If for some reason you have a strong hunch your opponent will 14 hatch this offcourse gets alot better but 14 hatch isn't popular enough for that imo (13 pool is economically better then 14 hatch anyways).
edit: getting the nexus blocked by a drone would also be horrible for this build it seems. By the point you got 400 minerals spare it's simply too late to adopt to anything normal really.
If nothing else those replays show just how ridiculous cannons are...in the game against CellaWerra I definitely would have thought his huge army would roll over your base, but with 3 cannons in range it just gets crushed.
I recently viewed a game where cool, normally a zerg player, did something exactly like that. (since he nomrally FE's with zerg) PvT Nexus before gateway. It wasn't a matter of the terran having a BO to counter it or anything, he honestly just pulled 5 SCV's, built a bunker and some rines, than destroyed the nexus.
Simply amazing thread. So constructive. This is the example of the ideal "strategy topic", specially for lower diamonds like many of us. Let´s hope more top 200 toss help the race childs like you do, lol. Bookmarks -> Sc2 folder. Yeah!
On October 11 2010 10:30 Markwerf wrote: So to defend the natural you will have only cannons without a wall-in of some sort basically? This makes it too weak to baneling pressure imo. There is only 1 replay against fast banelings in the pack and there the banelings weren't used to well. What I'd fear even more would be a smart zerg that cancels zergling speed and throws up the baneling nest ASAP, using the saved gas for just mass baneling. With the dual base setup it's simply not possible to defend good baneling usage without having some proper wall-ins. For example the game on blistering sands vs the one guy that did go reasonable fast baneling he would have won if he hit the expo as it had only 1 pylon.
15 nexus is a good build just not one for all maps imo. On the new maps with the easy to defend natural it's fantastic as you can just 9 pylon at the ramp, scout to see if its a 6 pool or not and follow with 15 nexus into wall-off. On LT it might be good too but still a bit risky in case you happen to find the zerg last.
Also I think it's important to note 15 nexus into forge + 2 cannons isn't much economically better then a FE with fast sentries. By getting the fast nexus you cut alot of probes / don't use chronoboost on your nexus early on AND you spend quite a big investment 450 for 1 forge and 2 cannons in stuff that won't help you be aggresive. On the 2 new maps I definately do this build as there is a good chance you can get away without the forge (or only need 1 cannon) but on other maps it's not that great imo. If for some reason you have a strong hunch your opponent will 14 hatch this offcourse gets alot better but 14 hatch isn't popular enough for that imo (13 pool is economically better then 14 hatch anyways).
edit: getting the nexus blocked by a drone would also be horrible for this build it seems. By the point you got 400 minerals spare it's simply too late to adopt to anything normal really.
There are only 2 replays with early banelings but those are just examples - I have used this build for almost 100 games now and have dealt with banelings many times. Yes they are scary, but in no way are they a hard counter. If you scout them in time, you can make enough cannons to stop it, even when you have to defend both bases and without a full wall. That's why I actually don't fear zergs who get the baneling nest ASAP - without ling speed or with low early numbers of lings, it's much harder for the zerg to deny my scouting. What I'm more afraid of are zergs who get their natural up and speedlings to deny scouting, and try to all-in me right before I have warpgates. That window of timing (right before my warpgates are up) is much better for the zerg than the very early game when I'm just starting to get cannons up.
Regarding this build vs 1 gate sentry FE, I don't even see how you can begin to say that it's not that much economically better - your nexus goes up ages before your nexus with a 1 gate sentry FE. You only cut probes for about 5 seconds against a 14 pool (and no probe cut at all against any other build), and you use all chronos on probes (I believe that you use some chronos on sentries in a 1 gate sentry FE?). 1 gate sentry is much safer though, and it won't give zerg a free 3rd base. I'll give you that.
why not adapt your build to state that if you see zerg hatch at expo before pool, or if you scout him last on a 4-player map, you build a forge at 14?
That'll keep you safe if he ling rushes, and let you deny his expo with a cannon if he goes hatchery first.
When you eventually scout him, if you see that it's safe you can place a nexus before any cannons and you're only very slightly behind economically compared to nexus first.
Just a small change that keeps you safe when you scout late and punishes him if he stupidly goes hatch first.
On October 11 2010 12:29 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Quick question, in your experience does a build similar in nature to this one work against terran or protoss?
This looks like a great guide. I will watch the replays when I get home. I have been trying to add more strategies to my PvZ, currently it is either 4 gate timing push, 2 gate early pressure to voids, zealots charge with stalkers -> DT's, Thanks for this.
Wonderful, well written guide. Will try this in coming PvZ games.
A few polish edits I'd recommend:
1) Remind reader to SCOUT for 6-10pool builds before committing to pylon-nexus start. This is implied but not stated. Since the decision making process (see: hard counters) is based on this scout, I would recommend you include it in overview.
2) Chrono probes early on has a second reason: Once you have gateways and later stargates you will have 2 NEXUSES(nexii?) worth of periodic chrono boosts. Huge advantage of this build vs. Other FE builds is earlier energy pool from second nexus. Deserves mention!
I only tried this for a handful of zerg games tonight but it worked out really well. I was so confused on what to do against zerg because my early aggression never went well enough to put a dent into him or allow me to safely expand.
This allowed me to keep things even long enough to engage and the early pheonix gives great map control and scouting.
LOL I just wanted to write something like that on the weekend but decided I can't impress anybody with my ~1k points to convince ppl it is do-able
really nice write-up, this is why I love TL - awsome replay-collection to show the variety of strats this can beat; there is also a replay from tester vs fruitseller where he WANTS to do this build (he saves up 400 minerals and cuts probes) at 15, but decides to abort when he sees fruitseller going for a 14 pool and puts down forge first; I think this is the core problem/part where you wanna think about switching away and adapting; because if zerg does NOT go for hatch first, then forge before nexus will still put you in a VERY comfortable position and you don't have to pull many probes because you can throw down a cannon asap before gate; then you are safe and just need to pull few probes to block the entrance; although you can definitely hold, from the yabot-testing I've done I always felt that nexus before forge may force you to pull quite many probes to scare the zerg off - because once you lose too many probes and/or delay your tech too much it could easily snowball out of control and leave you behind
EDIT: also I'm still not sure if you really want to do this build on maps like xel naga, steppes or delta quadrant....you have to invest so much in defense structures and wall-off to avoid ling-run-by it's not eaven funny; I'm nowhere saying it's not possible, but...well..."feels not right" lol, if you know what I'm trying to say; maps where I've tested it vs ~1.2k zergs (not that good admittedly) but felt fine the whole time are LT, metalopolis, blistering sands and scrap station; also the two new maps are PERFECT for this build, after a quick glance at the easily defendable naturals I knew I'd definitely try nexus first on these two
On October 11 2010 19:38 sleepingdog wrote: LOL I just wanted to write something like that on the weekend but decided I can't impress anybody with my ~1k points to convince ppl it is do-able
really nice write-up, this is why I love TL - awsome replay-collection to show the variety of strats this can beat; there is also a replay from tester vs fruitseller where he WANTS to do this build (he saves up 400 minerals and cuts probes) at 15, but decides to abort when he sees fruitseller going for a 14 pool and puts down forge first; I think this is the core problem/part where you wanna think about switching away and adapting; because if zerg does NOT go for hatch first, then forge before nexus will still put you in a VERY comfortable position and you don't have to pull many probes because you can throw down a cannon asap before gate; then you are safe and just need to pull few probes to block the entrance; although you can definitely hold, from the yabot-testing I've done I always felt that nexus before forge may force you to pull quite many probes to scare the zerg off - because once you lose too many probes and/or delay your tech too much it could easily snowball out of control and leave you behind
EDIT: also I'm still not sure if you really want to do this build on maps like xel naga, steppes or delta quadrant....you have to invest so much in defense structures and wall-off to avoid ling-run-by it's not eaven funny; I'm nowhere saying it's not possible, but...well..."feels not right" lol, if you know what I'm trying to say; maps where I've tested it vs ~1.2k zergs (not that good admittedly) but felt fine the whole time are LT, metalopolis, blistering sands and scrap station; also the two new maps are PERFECT for this build, after a quick glance at the easily defendable naturals I knew I'd definitely try nexus first on these two
I'm glad you liked the guide, but I think you're missing the 2 most important points I'm trying to make with it...
1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up.
2. It works on maps like xel naga or delta quadrant, not just LT or metal (but I'll agree with you that LT and metal are better for it). You only have to invest in additional defense structures if the zerg is investing in an early attack. If you see the zerg double expanding you don't need to make 50 cannons.
Been doing 15nex myself quite a few times, it works really good against z as long as they don't 6pool pretty much. Though, with the roach range change I don't see it as viable :[
I've done it a few times and it works really well vs any ling/bling action and any sort of muta tech, however, I've been losing to 1 base or 2 base roach, and 2 base hydras...
I read the build order wrong and was doing 9 pylon and 12 forge 15 nexus. <- This build has won me the last 3 games with top level zergs (1800+) mainly due to the insane amount of probe production, that can keep me in par with zerg production.
I always felt that after the initial phase where the zerg can get begin to saturate I fall behind in food very quicky (20+) but this build allows me to get 50+ probes very quickly and harass with pheonixes.
The phoenix is the strength of this build. You can begin to pick off many overlords, and force them to go hydra which you want. After 4 phoenixes I go double robo (tasteless: double robo all the way) and pump colossus. At around 130 food you can push out with around 3 colossus to claim your victory before hive tech starts.
If they go banelings and kill one of your bases' worth of supply you are still ahead. Banelings would be the WORST response to this build, but it seems that a lot of zergs are opting for it.
On October 12 2010 02:58 Anihc wrote: 1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up.
nonono, I believe you 100% that nexus first is safe vs 14 pool and that it puts zerg more behind than you
what I meant was, vs 14 pool forge before nexus will put YOU more "in front" than nexus first because you only have to pull 2-3 probes to fill the whole in the wall...although mostly the cannon alone suffices; also depends on the rush distances of course; what I mean is, if you play nexus first and he goes zergling-harass after 14 pool you WILL most likely have to pull probes - this is what I meant, this "probe-pulling" will normally go slightly worse for you economy-wise compared to throwing down the forge asap and delaying the nexus for just a little bit
I never intended to challenge that nexus first is hold-able vs 14 pool, it definitely is, and I prefer it on really long rush-distances too (metalopolis cross pos., scrap station; vs hatch first every time when I don't 3 gate sentry-expand)
On October 12 2010 02:58 Anihc wrote: 1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up.
nonono, I believe you 100% that nexus first is safe vs 14 pool and that it puts zerg more behind than you
what I meant was, vs 14 pool forge before nexus will put YOU more "in front" than nexus first because you only have to pull 2-3 probes to fill the whole in the wall...although mostly the cannon alone suffices; also depends on the rush distances of course; what I mean is, if you play nexus first and he goes zergling-harass after 14 pool you WILL most likely have to pull probes - this is what I meant, this "probe-pulling" will normally go slightly worse for you economy-wise compared to throwing down the forge asap and delaying the nexus for just a little bit
I never intended to challenge that nexus first is hold-able vs 14 pool, it definitely is, and I prefer it on really long rush-distances too (metalopolis cross pos., scrap station; vs hatch first every time when I don't 3 gate sentry-expand)
Oh I see, sorry for misunderstanding you as well, you may be right in that case. However a lot of times zergs who go 14 pool will not make those 6 lings and just opt to expand quickly upon seeing you either go forge and/or nexus first, so I'd still rather drop the nexus first on 15 no matter what.
WOW I actually feel like I have direction in my game against zerg now, thanks a lot 1 Basing always felt really uncomfortable vs zerg to me, and I'd always feel behind economically if I tried another FE build, if I didn't botch it before the 5 minute mark, that is. With this though, I feel like I have some flexibility and the game is in my hands for once. Great guide, tyty.
I've used it versus both Z and P 5 times now, and I only lost once(~1200point diamond). Though I only tried this once vs P on Jungle Basin where the expo is easy to defend. I get a solid economic lead, and I simply outproduce my opponent.
Though it seems like many don't know how to respond properly to this opening yet When they scout me and only see my single pylon, they start to either get a lot of zerglings or in another case throw down a spine crawler(cause they might expect proxy gates from me).
I actually feel very safe doing this build, but I feel like a good timing push with maybe 12-14 roaches could be devastating, cause its so hard to scout until you get your robo or whatever tech you are going, due to the delay of the first gateway.
Also, beware of Nydus Worms on maps where you can wall off with forge/cannons like Lost Temple or Shakuras Plateau
EDIT: Okay so after a few more games vs P, I can say its much much harder due to proxy pylons/warp prism/blink/stalkers in generel. Think ill just use this for PvZ:D
Hmm it's interesting to hear that so many people are having trouble against roaches when using this build, for me roaches are the easiest to handle. Anyone have a replay losing to roaches with this?
BTW I wouldn't recommend nexus first against P or T...
Exciting! I've been doing a 3 gate expand build vs Zerg lately however that seems incredibly weak in many cases so hopefully this fills the gap. I really enjoy being able to not 1 base games so this is awsome news to see a build like this. Thanks for all the replays as well!
I'm curious though, what is your reasoning when you place your initial cannons. I noticed on a few maps like Scrap station the first one was in your main and the second was in your natural. Is there any reason or is it just that on a map like Scrap where both bases are easily accessible without having to go through the natural to get to your main you just arbitrarily picked one to put the first cannon?
Thanks for the build! I too have always felt uncomfortable at one basing vs. zerg, and pylon walling is difficult to pull off (vs. zerg ready to stop it) and has its own problems. I'm still learning how to hold all-ins, but when this works, maaaan its ace. Definitely going to keep practicing this one!
Used this build for the first time and I felt it actually helped with my macro a bit O.O I was at like ~90 workers at the end of the game just constantly pumping probes the entire game
On October 12 2010 09:20 Suerte wrote: I'm curious though, what is your reasoning when you place your initial cannons. I noticed on a few maps like Scrap station the first one was in your main and the second was in your natural. Is there any reason or is it just that on a map like Scrap where both bases are easily accessible without having to go through the natural to get to your main you just arbitrarily picked one to put the first cannon?
This seems pretty scary! Ive done it vs a toss one time on the new Jungle Basin map, I dont even think the toss even scouted down in the natural so it worked out in my favor. But ya here is a match where TTone tried a FE against Dimaga. It did not work out so well.
On October 12 2010 11:03 AlexXx wrote: This seems pretty scary! Ive done it vs a toss one time on the new Jungle Basin map, I dont even think the toss even scouted down in the natural so it worked out in my favor. But ya here is a match where TTone tried a FE against Dimaga. It did not work out so well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FImPIRakazY
Interesting 10 pool from Dimaga, you don't see that normally... but TTone didn't scout and then he went gate instead of forge after the nexus. If he had pylonscouted (as suggested in this build) he would have scouted the early pool in time to drop a forge instead of a nexus and save himself.
As a Zerg, I can accurately say the only time a P player ever beats me because of anything but my own errors it's because they FE'd. T and P need to get on the bandwagon.
BTW, if you block a choke in front of your Nat you're really, really begging for a Baneling Bust. Make sure you're prepared at 30+ food.
What maps would you say are not the best for this FE build? I would imagine Steppes would cause some trouble just because even getting the forge at 15 you won't get your cannon up fast enough for even a 14 pool.
I don't think baneling bust is a serious threat as long as you chrono out a few sentries as soon as your cyber finishes.
I really just don't see any reason to NOT make your initial pylon below your ramp. If you scout a fast pool or he's in the last spot on a 4-player map, lay down a forge on 14 and you're still perfectly safe.
On October 12 2010 13:34 Keilah wrote: I don't think baneling bust is a serious threat as long as you chrono out a few sentries as soon as your cyber finishes.
I really just don't see any reason to NOT make your initial pylon below your ramp. If you scout a fast pool or he's in the last spot on a 4-player map, lay down a forge on 14 and you're still perfectly safe.
I agree. If ur going to expo, you can wall off with a gate/forge asap if you see an extremely early pool. (6-10)
Also, if you want less of an investment for a wall off. you can 2 pylon wall-in at the bottom of the ramp as well.
thankyouthankthankyou for making a comprehensive guide. as opposed to "i was beated by phoenix/sentry/immortal/dt/probe, how do i stop it!?!?"
will def try this the times i roll toss vs zerg.
haven't had time to watch the replays, but how do you deal with the infestor build where the zerg spots with an ovelord and throws a million ITs in your base?
On October 12 2010 13:26 motus wrote: What maps would you say are not the best for this FE build? I would imagine Steppes would cause some trouble just because even getting the forge at 15 you won't get your cannon up fast enough for even a 14 pool.
LT, metal, and xel naga are probably the best for this build, because of ability to wall your natural and just defend 1 choke. Blistering and scrap have destructible rocks making it harder to defend one chokepoint, but the long rush distance makes this build still pretty safe. Steppes and delta quadrant are the worst, although I have done it successfully on delta quadrant several times. For some reason I haven't gotten a PvZ on steppes in nearly 100 games so I have yet to test this build on that map...
On October 12 2010 13:34 Keilah wrote: I don't think baneling bust is a serious threat as long as you chrono out a few sentries as soon as your cyber finishes.
I really just don't see any reason to NOT make your initial pylon below your ramp. If you scout a fast pool or he's in the last spot on a 4-player map, lay down a forge on 14 and you're still perfectly safe.
I agree. If ur going to expo, you can wall off with a gate/forge asap if you see an extremely early pool. (6-10)
Also, if you want less of an investment for a wall off. you can 2 pylon wall-in at the bottom of the ramp as well.
You guys are right, if you're going to wall then it is a better idea to just place your first pylon at your natural. The only time where pylon in main on a wallable map will end up being better is if your opponent 6 or 10 pools and you scout him last (which has happened to me before), but that's probably too rare of an occurrence to justify always putting the first pylon in your main.
On October 12 2010 15:53 Dudemeister wrote: haven't had time to watch the replays, but how do you deal with the infestor build where the zerg spots with an ovelord and throws a million ITs in your base?
What? I haven't seen a single infestor in any of my PvZ games in years. Replay?
After reading this, I think I will be better prepared as zerg vs this.
If a contain build worked at all, it would be just take the map and macro. The following is my theorycrafting.
Fast expand, enough lings to (2-6) to keep probes from scouting or putting up proxi pylons or cannons. All other larvae will be drones to saturate. Spine crawlers for harassment defense. Proxy hatch the 3rd instead of taking a 3rd. Contain with spine crawlers. Get spores when pheonix are about. Infesters are also needed when those pheonix come, but are more to help keep the contain safe from any any bust out. With a proxy hatch you can bust down a wall in instead of wasting banelings.
All gas into infestor and add in some corruptors later if prottos techs to collosi to try to bust the contain. Infestors can keep P from breaking a spine crawler line, can stop pheonix, can stop voidrays (been getting NP recently a lot more, fg and queens work good too) and FG works great on ground army trying to bust a contain, as well as tons of infested terrans.
The great thing about a contain vs this type of play is that it gives you time to get more units fielded while they are working on the contain, and you don't have to heavily defend each expo. Instead, the P has to take down the contain to make a push on any base, instead of easily harassing by ground when your trying to take more bases than a FE protoss. And by getting infestors, you can make a ton of infested terrans to help out the spines and even attack with them.
Take a 3rd soon after you start the proxi hatch. Need all the extra gas for infestor and for teching. Just take expansions and tech for as long as you have map control. Trying to take a 3rd without a contain vs a P FE will just get harassed, or you will have to spine up all your expos, or you have to spend your larvae on units to defend it, and can't get a big enough macro lead. You want a macro lead over the P even if they FE, and a contain can get up if they have late gateways. Need just enough lings to keep probes off the map though.
Of corse this is all just the way I think, havn't tested this yet. Getting it typed out helps me think and remember what I want to do when I see this. I have done hatchery contains vs forge first FE before that have worked to an extent, so I think it could work well vs this. Also, if they arn't getting a forge or gate on 12/13/14 supply, you better put that scout drone at the expo to delay, and maybe even send another drone to help it if its close positions!
tldr - FE into proxy hatch contain for early map control, your defense is your harassment.
After reading this build i feel that it surely is a good build that would work against zerg, would anyone have any advice for lower level players like myself (gold league ) ? i find it difficult to fend off lings with probes. most of the time when i try this the lings destroy so many probes that im too far behind =(
On October 12 2010 13:26 motus wrote: What maps would you say are not the best for this FE build? I would imagine Steppes would cause some trouble just because even getting the forge at 15 you won't get your cannon up fast enough for even a 14 pool.
LT, metal, and xel naga are probably the best for this build, because of ability to wall your natural and just defend 1 choke.
you forgot the two new maps - they have "plz 15 nexus" written all over them, in fact on shakuras I did void ray abuse in my first game (vs T) because of the rocks behind the base and 15 nexus (vs Z) in my 2nd game before reading anything about this in the forums at all; 15 nexus seems like the most logical thing to do on shakuras
btw I've written my first two responses at work where I obviously couldn't watch the reps; now I understand why you don't forge first vs 14 pool....because you don't wall off! honestly I've never seen your building placement on high level before, I'm sure many zergs were as surprised as I was and had no idea how to respond; many of them overcommited because obviously they thought "hey, no wall, eaz-peaz for my lings, what a noob" - and then just died vs the very tight building-arrangement; I like it, will look into it;
the reason why I suggested 15 forge (and 15 nexus, just to be clear about it - you achieve the best result by just cutting probes a little bit longer) vs 14 pool is because you just won't get your cannon up in time, meaning your wall-in is super-exposed if the zerg just decides to attack your pulled probes; if you 15 forge than your cannon will finish in time and the 14-pool lings will die miserably because they won't be able to break your 2-3 probe-wall, since the lings die SO fast vs cannon-fire; nevertheless, seeing your reps, you never intended to wall-off in the first place; therefore there was never a need for you to pull probes to your wall, which would've been the lost mining-time I was talking about; hence it makes sense to 15 nexus because you need to invest MUCH more in cannons than I have to afterwards; normally I'm fine with 2 cannons behind my wall....if he commits I can block with sentries and spam more asap
what I don't understand is, why you don't go for 2 stargates - at least vs teching zergs; I understand that you wouldn't want it vs fast hydras, but at the very least you want 2 stargates vs muta-play; on your rep on scrap station you did your build vs mass-mutas but eventually decided to go for nearly pure stalker/sentry and you just had 2-3 phoenixes left; phoenixes COUNTER mutas, they are more cost-effective! don't give up your advantage on this part, there's no reason why you should give him the air-control back!
On October 12 2010 15:53 Dudemeister wrote: haven't had time to watch the replays, but how do you deal with the infestor build where the zerg spots with an ovelord and throws a million ITs in your base?
What? I haven't seen a single infestor in any of my PvZ games in years. Replay?
lol had this happen to me, is VERY annoying
you need observers at strategical places vs burrow, then it's easy because on the open field you can just lift the infestors up, they die very fast; also infestor/muta can be "countered" just with mass-phoenixes....since phoenixes are more cost-effective than mutas, your phoenix-army will be much stronger than his mutas - if you constantly replenish your phoenix-count he can fungal all he wants, he just won't be able to kill you off
concerning the economics, this works because infestors are REALLY gas-heavy, no zerg can go heavy on infestors and mutas
On October 12 2010 16:43 P00RKID wrote: After reading this, I think I will be better prepared as zerg vs this.
If a contain build worked at all, it would be just take the map and macro. The following is my theorycrafting.
Fast expand, enough lings to (2-6) to keep probes from scouting or putting up proxi pylons or cannons. All other larvae will be drones to saturate. Spine crawlers for harassment defense. Proxy hatch the 3rd instead of taking a 3rd. Contain with spine crawlers. Get spores when pheonix are about. Infesters are also needed when those pheonix come, but are more to help keep the contain safe from any any bust out. With a proxy hatch you can bust down a wall in instead of wasting banelings.
All gas into infestor and add in some corruptors later if prottos techs to collosi to try to bust the contain. Infestors can keep P from breaking a spine crawler line, can stop pheonix, can stop voidrays (been getting NP recently a lot more, fg and queens work good too) and FG works great on ground army trying to bust a contain, as well as tons of infested terrans.
The great thing about a contain vs this type of play is that it gives you time to get more units fielded while they are working on the contain, and you don't have to heavily defend each expo. Instead, the P has to take down the contain to make a push on any base, instead of easily harassing by ground when your trying to take more bases than a FE protoss. And by getting infestors, you can make a ton of infested terrans to help out the spines and even attack with them.
Take a 3rd soon after you start the proxi hatch. Need all the extra gas for infestor and for teching. Just take expansions and tech for as long as you have map control. Trying to take a 3rd without a contain vs a P FE will just get harassed, or you will have to spine up all your expos, or you have to spend your larvae on units to defend it, and can't get a big enough macro lead. You want a macro lead over the P even if they FE, and a contain can get up if they have late gateways. Need just enough lings to keep probes off the map though.
Of corse this is all just the way I think, havn't tested this yet. Getting it typed out helps me think and remember what I want to do when I see this. I have done hatchery contains vs forge first FE before that have worked to an extent, so I think it could work well vs this. Also, if they arn't getting a forge or gate on 12/13/14 supply, you better put that scout drone at the expo to delay, and maybe even send another drone to help it if its close positions!
tldr - FE into proxy hatch contain for early map control, your defense is your harassment.
Proxy hatch to break the wall with spines is an interesting idea, but you can't contain a toss with defensive structures! He just makes a pylon on the edge of the cliff and warps in his units below it. Or gets a warp prism. Or learns blink. With a second nexus he'll be able to chrono out warpgate very fast if he chooses, so don't say it's worthwhile just for the delay. Also if he notices the proxy hatch all he needs to do is make a cannon or two in front of the wall and you can't spine push him. If you make units to kill the cannon(s), you aren't making drones, and you will lose a few units as well.
very well writen.thanks for your time anihc.this build order is very strong on every map.but it will be hard for any toss who is opp. is very hard macro zerg.
@OP: have you ever considered adding a mothership as early as you can afford tech? I know it sounds kinda weird, but when you go phoenixes, chances are extremely high that he will go roach/hydra later on....now instead of getting fast colossi just add a mothership and kill him? no overseer will live against phoenixes and after that it will simply be painful for him
I think the TLO vr dimaga game shows how critical it is to scout with this build. Anything less then a 13 pool or so (in close positions), and your screwed. Still would like to see someone like dimaga face this if he didnt insta win.
i tried it in my first ladder match today.i was lucky it was a zerg on delta.he fast expanded.and harrassed with lings on my main.he switched to fast mutas with triple expand.i was able to hold mutas with phonex cannons and stalkers.then i attacked when i was in 110 supply full of stalker and +1 zealots.at that time he had 23 mutas and bunch of lings.he had 49 drones with gold mining 3 expo.he lost all his mutas and lings to my army.i went to his main and he just said GG.i am 1600 diamond toss.
This build seems safe and effective enough but in pvz protoss starts with the initiative and zerg has to react, unless he steals initiative with a cheesy early pool. Opening nexus first you really give away your initiative and zerg is free to be exploitive. You don't have the option of just killing him immediately anymore so the impetus is on you to scout and react to what he is doing instead of vice versa.
This is not necessarily a bad thing but rather a stylistic choice. I feel the game is much harder to play reactively.
I play a similar style of PvZ to this and it is really effective. I normally go Forge first, unless I manage to scout a Hatch first build from the Z before I put the Forge down.
Can you explain a bit why you decide to make the cut at 15? When I play, I normally cut at 16 until I have Forge, Nex, Gate and Cannon, maybe even Gas, before adding on that 2nd Pylon and resuming Probes.
On October 12 2010 20:45 Keilah wrote: Proxy hatch to break the wall with spines is an interesting idea, but you can't contain a toss with defensive structures! He just makes a pylon on the edge of the cliff and warps in his units below it. Or gets a warp prism. Or learns blink. With a second nexus he'll be able to chrono out warpgate very fast if he chooses, so don't say it's worthwhile just for the delay. Also if he notices the proxy hatch all he needs to do is make a cannon or two in front of the wall and you can't spine push him. If you make units to kill the cannon(s), you aren't making drones, and you will lose a few units as well.
Depending on the map the contain might work better or worse. Plus, you can kill proxy pylons on cliff if they are close enough to the edge and you spot them OL (using some roaches or a spinecrawler there) The contain isn't just spinecrawlers outside of his wall. You spread the creep and take all precautions to keep anything from getting out that can go over cliffs like blink and collossus, warp ins. I don't think blinking down a cliff would be a problem if you are spreading creep all the way around his main and expo area, putting a couple crawlers around the cliffs and OL to spot for cliff edge pylons (thinking LT here). Lings are great against stalkers if they are on the map without zealots, and if they are blinking to get out, they won't have the zealots.
Only thing that really hard to stop from getting out is the warp prism. Need excelent scouting to stop a warp prism flying round the side of the map, especially if pheonixes have been going around blasting OL. But if the protoss is oppening pheonix after FE like in the OP, they are going to have late robo bay. And if they open robo bay, they will have even later pheonix, and you will still have good scouting measures.
And as far as him putting cannons up to stop a spine push, spines + some fodder (infested terrans, lings) will be enough to bust down any forward cannons. If there is any mass stalker blink, which would be likely, you just have to throw extra minerals into more lings than crawlers. Ling infestor is a good counter vs blink stalkers (especially if 1.2 buffs FG to stop them from blinking away too)
I think this build is really good. I am a 1200 Protoss and use this on big maps against Z, though I have a really hard time dealing with muta/ling. The Z knows there won't be any pressure from me so he takes a fast third and gets like 70 zerglings and 10-20 mutas.
I can't move out of my base because I will get trapped by lings and killed of rather fast, scouting is denied by the mutas. Finally the zerg takes a fourth and I have to move out and die because he has like 20-30 more supply than me. How do you deal with mutaling?
On October 13 2010 01:18 yarkO wrote: Can you explain a bit why you decide to make the cut at 15? When I play, I normally cut at 16 until I have Forge, Nex, Gate and Cannon, maybe even Gas, before adding on that 2nd Pylon and resuming Probes.
I cut at 15 to make sure I can get a forge up and cannons in time to stop a 14 pool (5-10 seconds). Note that I'm still placing my nexus down before the forge. Against hatch first I don't cut probes at all. If you stop probe production any more than that then you're really just undoing all the eco gain you get from that early of a nexus.
On October 13 2010 05:56 mappiechampion wrote: I think this build is really good. I am a 1200 Protoss and use this on big maps against Z, though I have a really hard time dealing with muta/ling. The Z knows there won't be any pressure from me so he takes a fast third and gets like 70 zerglings and 10-20 mutas.
I can't move out of my base because I will get trapped by lings and killed of rather fast, scouting is denied by the mutas. Finally the zerg takes a fourth and I have to move out and die because he has like 20-30 more supply than me. How do you deal with mutaling?
You would probably have to show a replay, the fast stargate is already designed with countering muta/ling in mind. My guess is that your micro is suspect, as in you're not kiting mutas well enough with phoenix and not placing good enough FFs against lings. You need to be proactive with your phoenix - if he's not chasing your phoenix around with his mutas, you should be hunting down his mutas with your phoenix, and not letting him mass up.
Most zergs will stop making mutas entirely upon seeing phoenix, but if for some reason they continue massing mutas then continue chrono'ed phoenix production and invest in air upgrades. Some prefer to add a 2nd stargate, but that's too much micro for me. I've also heard people having success with archons, so getting an early council for blink and then going for templar may not be a bad idea either.
Thank you for this guide. Every replay has different scenarios and is up against some top notch players. This is definitely my new standard. It really is a solid build.
The modern day Forge Fast expand. Now we just have to incorporate Dark Templar along with your Phoenix play and call it the Bisu Build v2!
One thing I do note is that usually during the time you are about to get your Twilight Council up, you have around 1000 minerals and about 300 gas. A suggestion I have is maybe get plus 1 shield and warp in a set of zealots instead of stalkers to balance out your cash reserves. Its just a thought, but I did notice that as a trend in some of your replays, and it may make the build that much more solid. A 1/1/1 Gate Army timing push would be that much more devastating.
On October 13 2010 08:41 Anihc wrote: Most zergs will stop making mutas entirely upon seeing phoenix, but if for some reason they continue massing mutas then continue chrono'ed phoenix production and invest in air upgrades. Some prefer to add a 2nd stargate, but that's too much micro for me. I've also heard people having success with archons, so getting an early council for blink and then going for templar may not be a bad idea either.
since I was the one suggesting 2 stargates, I try to explain why I think this is imo very necessary vs muta/ling
the problem with muta/ling is NOT that it can kill your stuff quickly, but that it can allow zerg to mass-expand while keeping you from expanding yourself; 3 bases cannot be defended with just 3 groups of stalkers unless you have HTs or really, really many cannons; what many seem to forget is, that phoenixes are good vs mutas even WITHOUT MICRO! phoenixes kill mutas in straight up battles cost-effectively; if you add in just a little bit hit and run you are ahead quite comfortably; now you have the chance to harass zerg all over the place while he desperately has to make a tech-switch
most critically is imo, that this makes any plans of early game-ending hive-tech reduntant since neither ultras nor brood-lords provide anything vs phoenix-harass; zerg is left without any overlord before he can even start producing them lol
so if you give up phoenixes you not only give up map-control and the "attackers-advantage" but you also allow zerg to stick with his plan, that will often be an ultra-tech once he has established the contain; if you are gateway-heavy this could turn out bad; to be perfectly honest, nexus first into 2 stargates is a clear build-order-win if your opponent sticks with mutas; no reason to switch away from phoenixes vs mutas....ever; just my 2 cents
On October 13 2010 01:12 Jaeger wrote: This build seems safe and effective enough but in pvz protoss starts with the initiative and zerg has to react, unless he steals initiative with a cheesy early pool. Opening nexus first you really give away your initiative and zerg is free to be exploitive. You don't have the option of just killing him immediately anymore so the impetus is on you to scout and react to what he is doing instead of vice versa.
This is not necessarily a bad thing but rather a stylistic choice. I feel the game is much harder to play reactively.
tbh I always get the feeling it's the other way round....when I open with early aggression then most of the time zerg just throws up tons of spine-crawlers; then I have to retreat and have to "wait" for zerg to "announce" its tech; will it be mutas? then blink+templars it is; will it be hydras? then colossi are needed; I feel like when I'm not successful with my initial aggression, then I'm already behind because zerg can kinda "force" its tech onto me; nevertheless nexus first into phoenixes is "always" good, even vs quick hydras, because the hydras won't normally arrive before phoenixes and additionally I can trap zerg in his base....moreover zerg can't really safely establish 3 bases because he'd have to split his hydras up; exactly the same situation as with muta-harass vs stalkers; if zerg all-ins me then everything changes anyway....because once I've defeated his troups without major losses I'm "so" ahead economically, that I could run him over probably with just masses of zealots
forget the build there is a patch coming. roaches can snipe your block with their addtional range..
Edit: And you all forget the fact that corruptors OWNS phoenixes so you cannot go air to air with a zerg, which leaves them both with the strongest army and the stronger economy. where you are forced to do effective DT play into a 3rd or into a Big push with HTs and archons, the whole BW idea cannot be done due to the fact that zergs air is stronger than protoss air ( prehaps if you get 200 pop rays it is not but you will not be able to anyway).
guess my question was just too short. so i'll write a little more to draw peoples attention :D
i'd like to know if the OP or any one else did this build facing a 14 hatch into roach/hydra +1 push.
i played quite a few games versus either fast expanding Ps or 3gate expanding Ps. what i did was my standard 14 hatch into full saturation while teching to lair and getting one or two rangeground upgrades. i then pushed with about ~10 roach 10 hydra.
if the P goes for stargate he's pretty much dead, in any other case he has to hope to not take too much damage before his colossi pops. which can delayed using 2 overseer.
well that's just my experience and probably my enemys reacted poorly - that's why i ask if some of you faced this playing a fast expo with P
even with roach range 4 it will still work.cannon has 7 range and you dont need to wall.for a fast roach it means zerg dont macro.in that time you will have macro avantage. for corruptor they will not hit ground and your stalker will own them.so dont combat with your phonex.they are for harass and protection only.
a good zerg will dont fast hydras.you know that hydras are lamers unit.they will never hurt a good toss with good forcefield.and hydras are slow and low hp.any t3 will own them.
On October 13 2010 17:46 Craixs wrote: Edit: And you all forget the fact that corruptors OWNS phoenixes so you cannot go air to air with a zerg, which leaves them both with the strongest army and the stronger economy.
what a big pile of nonsense, you are obviously theorycrafting and have never, ever used or played against this
corruptors own phoenixes in the unit-tester, but in the open field it's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to do anything with corruptors since they are awfully slow; zerg needs many bases in mid/lategame and definitely can't afford to put tons of corruptors at each base, just to get overrun by mass-stalkers/sentries+"insert-any-tech-you-like" later on; they bring corruptors to one base? no big deal, just fly away to the next one; they split? no big deal, just kill the corruptors with your far superior phoenix-number (moving injured phoenixes away is extremely easy thanks to their awsome speed, if you're on top of your micro you might even take shield damage only) even if the zerg gets corruptors, this shuts down his ability to harass with mutas; mutas are there for hit and run, not to straight-up fight; it's simply impossible for any zerg to do hit and run with muta AND corruptor; also if he seems to tech to hive quickly, you could even switch into mass-void rays, which not only do very decently vs corruptors but straight up roflpwn ultras/broodlords
nevertheless the most important thing is still: if they "really" commit to corruptors in order to break your phoenix-force, their won't be anything left for decent anti-ground in mid-game; corruptors don't attack ground by definition, so I don't even need a colossi-tech and can just straight-up mass gateway-units (no harass!)....and attack before zerg can even get a useful number of hive-tech-units; without neither hydras nor muta-harass, there's nothing that would stop me from just marching into the zerg's main with tons and tons of stuff this is the far more important reason why zerg has to get hydras to deal with phoenixes: not only to prevent the harass but also to NOT DIE vs simple gateway-stuff, which is very easy to mass off two bases
I was testing this yesterday on LT against a zerg opponent I know I went for this into 3 stargate phoenix/VR aggression. I felt the huge economic boost and ability to supremely control the air and devastate his overlord population was very powerful. I was able to wall in, but I felt really weak to an early pool and felt weak to a possible bust. It seems safer to get the forge first then the nexus as your typical forge fast expand against early pools. I would recommend getting gas quickly and throwing down 1-3 sentries quickly to prevent the zerg's first autoresponse of bane busting. The second response being double expansion. But I will do more testing.
On October 12 2010 20:45 Keilah wrote: Proxy hatch to break the wall with spines is an interesting idea, but you can't contain a toss with defensive structures! He just makes a pylon on the edge of the cliff and warps in his units below it. Or gets a warp prism. Or learns blink. With a second nexus he'll be able to chrono out warpgate very fast if he chooses, so don't say it's worthwhile just for the delay. Also if he notices the proxy hatch all he needs to do is make a cannon or two in front of the wall and you can't spine push him. If you make units to kill the cannon(s), you aren't making drones, and you will lose a few units as well.
Depending on the map the contain might work better or worse. Plus, you can kill proxy pylons on cliff if they are close enough to the edge and you spot them OL (using some roaches or a spinecrawler there) The contain isn't just spinecrawlers outside of his wall. You spread the creep and take all precautions to keep anything from getting out that can go over cliffs like blink and collossus, warp ins. I don't think blinking down a cliff would be a problem if you are spreading creep all the way around his main and expo area, putting a couple crawlers around the cliffs and OL to spot for cliff edge pylons (thinking LT here). Lings are great against stalkers if they are on the map without zealots, and if they are blinking to get out, they won't have the zealots.
Only thing that really hard to stop from getting out is the warp prism. Need excelent scouting to stop a warp prism flying round the side of the map, especially if pheonixes have been going around blasting OL. But if the protoss is oppening pheonix after FE like in the OP, they are going to have late robo bay. And if they open robo bay, they will have even later pheonix, and you will still have good scouting measures.
And as far as him putting cannons up to stop a spine push, spines + some fodder (infested terrans, lings) will be enough to bust down any forward cannons. If there is any mass stalker blink, which would be likely, you just have to throw extra minerals into more lings than crawlers. Ling infestor is a good counter vs blink stalkers (especially if 1.2 buffs FG to stop them from blinking away too)
look, i'm sorry, it's a clever idea, but no. Just think about how many spines it would take to cover the ENTIRE edge of his base where he can blink down. Being so spread out, it's impossible that any one location will be strong enough to kill a group of stalkers that want to blink down. And honestly, if you made that many spines, I'd kill you with air.
On October 13 2010 21:22 MKZSlice wrote: I was able to wall in, but I felt really weak to an early pool and felt weak to a possible bust.
if you pay attention to the scout-timings, you will/should realize that even on 4-player-maps your scout will have scouted the opponent at about 15 food; if you don't feel safe you can STILL go forge first, if his pool is very early you can even simcity on maps like LT, blistering, shakuras, jungle basin and scrap station since the first initial lings take FOREVER to take down the rocks
in comparison to forge first "blindly" you don't give up that much of time (normal forge goes up at 12) but your advantage when you feel like you could get away with nexus first will be much bigger
On October 13 2010 18:01 lovewithlea wrote: guess my question was just too short. so i'll write a little more to draw peoples attention :D
i'd like to know if the OP or any one else did this build facing a 14 hatch into roach/hydra +1 push.
i played quite a few games versus either fast expanding Ps or 3gate expanding Ps. what i did was my standard 14 hatch into full saturation while teching to lair and getting one or two rangeground upgrades. i then pushed with about ~10 roach 10 hydra.
if the P goes for stargate he's pretty much dead, in any other case he has to hope to not take too much damage before his colossi pops. which can delayed using 2 overseer.
well that's just my experience and probably my enemys reacted poorly - that's why i ask if some of you faced this playing a fast expo with P
I saw your earlier post but I didn't respond because, correct me if I'm wrong, several of my replays involve some type of 2 base ground-based lair aggression by the zerg? What I'm trying to say is that that it's a very common zerg response. It's most dangerous for the P when you come in right before the P manages to get warpgates, but I think if you wait for full saturation and that big of a army (10 roach 10 hydra) it may be a bit too late and P will have warpgates up, and 2 base P > 2 base Z. If you hit early enough then yes it's tough for P to defend, and the P will have to rely on scouting/putting up more cannons and forcefields to hold off until warpgates.
@sleepingdog - yea i'll agree with you 2 stargate phoenix is a good counter to muta/ling even without micro but what I see a lot is that the zerg doesn't commit to mass muta and switches to hydra, and it does take a lot more micro when you have to fight hydra with phoenix. It's a personal preference really, and I'm sure 2 gate phoenix can work, I'm just much more comfortable with my ground based army.
I think someone mentioned that I get an early round of zealots instead of stalkers to help even out my min/gas balance (I always end up with way too many minerals), and yea I've actually started doing that recently, using more zealots to help dump the minerals and having a more even stalker/zealot mix instead of mostly stalker. I'm finding that it works just as well as a mostly stalker ball, and even better if you use sentries well.
On October 11 2010 05:32 Anihc wrote: Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up.
No they dont. Stopped reading the guide after that.
On October 11 2010 05:32 Anihc wrote: Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up.
No they dont. Stopped reading the guide after that.
Yes they do.
Wait for the lings to get in your mineral line, right click all your probes on 1 mineral patch on the edge of your mineral line, right click on the other edge when your probes are clumped up, now quickly attackmove. Voila, full surround, you can now micro low hp probes back and not lose any.
While I don't disagree totally, but your argument against corruptors seem to be based on the fact that they are getting them to defend against harrass at the bases.
What if they just get 1 or 2 corruptors initially to tank/counter pheonix with the group of mutas? It really depends on how many pheonix/stalkers is typical with this build by the time Zerg can get 6-7 mutas and 2-3 corruptors. If they use the corruptors purely to defend their mutas I think it may have more merit, as now you can't rely on pheonix to shutdown their muta play. Forcing you to possibly have to tech switch or try to harass (which at this point some form of AA either by extra queens or spores should be up to make it a little less viable).
You may have more understanding on if this is a problem or not. Or if Protoss can tech switch fast enough from this if they planned on the pheonix harass after the FE.
The strength of mutas lie in their speed and ability to both harass and take map control, threatening backstabs if the toss tries to move out. Corruptors are slower and thus don't really work well with mutas that way. I played a zerg that went corruptors with mutas against me once - I wasn't able to harass well, but he couldn't either (by the time his corruptors arrived my stalkers were there as well). Then I rolled over him with my ground army.
I was a bit sceptical at first but I gave your strat a try in a few games.. and I was amazed! I actually never felt that safe vs Zerg.. it's usually not my best matchup because I don't like playing against mutalisk harass / contain but the early expand makes most of my enemies so far want to try something cheesy/ all-inish to end the game quickly. Or they expand and rely on masses of hydras + possibly roaches instead and I feel much more comfortable against these strategies from the zerg player.
The cannons in your main and at your natural as well als clustered buildings and a Stargate opening with a few phoenix also make it very unlikely that the zerg will attempt to go mutaling- that's a hudge plus for me, I even consinder making this build my standard opening vs Z. Also nydus worms seem to be less of a threat, compared to a "standard forge/wall-off FE". Even if there's just like 3 cannons in your main they will help a lot and support your army in a battle (If you place your buildings right).
So far, im not having any trouble in the early game with the 15 Nexus build. Early lings can be easily killed by 1 cannon + a few probes and if they commit to a giant ling rush it can be gamebraking.. in your favour. In 1 game i lost like 10 probes + 2 cannons + 1 pylon to a big ling/bling rush and still I won with ease. He expanded very late and I had a hudge eco advantage.
I played like 8 PvZ with this strategy and I only lost the first game.. and that was in the late midgame after I made some bad decisions. In most of the games the Zerg tried to kill me really fast with early attacks but they didn't to enough damage to kill me. Once you hold of a big attack with tons of zerglings the game is pretty much over since you have a really BIG advantage now. They didn't expand fast enough. Spent too many larvae on units instead of drones, etc. They will have a really hard time coming back into the game. Btw I'm at ~1150pts in Diamond right now.
On October 14 2010 00:43 Anihc wrote: @sleepingdog - yea i'll agree with you 2 stargate phoenix is a good counter to muta/ling even without micro but what I see a lot is that the zerg doesn't commit to mass muta and switches to hydra, and it does take a lot more micro when you have to fight hydra with phoenix. It's a personal preference really, and I'm sure 2 gate phoenix can work, I'm just much more comfortable with my ground based army.
perfectly true of course, maybe I didn't write it correctly - I was ONLY referring to the situation where the zerg sticks with mutas! currently I like to get 1 stargate for a very early phoenix and if he does NOT go for super-fast hydras I add a 2nd one to increase my harassment-effectiveness; nevertheless once I see he tech-switches (scouting is obviously extremely easy with phoenixes) I start colossi-tech ASAP; normally I've thrown down the robo in the process because I'm expecting the tech-switch anyway; again mass-phoenix was a suggestion ONLY if zerg sticks with mass-muta; I was referring to one specific game of yours....on scrap station: you FEd, harassed with phoenixes but got more and more overwhelmed by mass-muta; and then you decided to just mass stalkers and killed him in the battle at the gold (I think); my critique was directed only at this specific situation: where zerg has no plans to switch away from mutas whatsoever there "should" be no reason for you to cut back on phoenixes;
Sleepingdog,
While I don't disagree totally, but your argument against corruptors seem to be based on the fact that they are getting them to defend against harrass at the bases.
What if they just get 1 or 2 corruptors initially to tank/counter pheonix with the group of mutas? It really depends on how many pheonix/stalkers is typical with this build by the time Zerg can get 6-7 mutas and 2-3 corruptors. If they use the corruptors purely to defend their mutas I think it may have more merit, as now you can't rely on pheonix to shutdown their muta play. Forcing you to possibly have to tech switch or try to harass (which at this point some form of AA either by extra queens or spores should be up to make it a little less viable).
You may have more understanding on if this is a problem or not. Or if Protoss can tech switch fast enough from this if they planned on the pheonix harass after the FE.
tbh few zergs went corruptors vs me in my last games where I did this; many switched into hydras, some added infestors and where quite surprised how badly phoenixes owned even without the ability to micro
the core problem of corruptors is, that they are SO slow, that this puts zerg in a quite similar position to protoss when defending mutas with blink stalkers; it's very stable at 2 bases, gets much more difficult on 3 bases and is pretty much impossible on 4 bases; if you force zerg into corruptors, one thing is for sure: he will NOT turn up at your base, because a) he has fewer mutas and b) the mutas he has will be torn apart by your phoenixes if he dares; this means you can take a 3rd base quite safely; on the other hand, zerg will have much more problems establishing a safe third; you are perfectly right, if zerg goes corruptor-heavy your phoenixes won't do much damage; nevertheless this pins him in his base(s) completely; if he wants a third he pretty much HAS to split his corruptors up, only exception may be LT (natural + gold are close; but I have never played vs muta/corruptor on LT lol....so dunno how it would turn out); phoenixes out"fly" corruptors so heavily it's not even funny; also we are talking about air, so there are no cliffs/etc. where phoenixes could bump into; if you micro accurately, avoiding corruptors should never be difficult;
if the zerg, however, gets corruptors to straight attack you together with mutas, you obviously have to get stalkers: nevertheless this will turn out bad for zerg because mutas SUCK really hard in lower numbers vs stalkers; mutas are supposed to be annoying, but are not supposed to actually "fight" - which they have to, because hit/run is impossible if they want to "stay covered" from corruptors; they basicly can only move at the same speed as corruptors; another thing to mention, if they really go corruptor/muta they won't have even a tiny bit of gas left for anything else - this means, if you go phoenix/stalker, you fight WAY more cost-effective, because stalkers are much more mineral-heavy; you said 7 muta 3 corruptor? this is exactly 1000 gas....one grand gas just for this bunch! I only tested it with 3 phoenixes + 7 stalkers, it was a hard ownage; and I didn't even add 1-2 sentries for guardian shield lol;
TL; DR: if he adds corruptors to his mutas he won't be able to harass because you can produce the phoenix/stalker-combo way more cost-effectively; if he adds corruptors he will have troubles taking his third and will be in a world of kaka when he even wants a fourth (4 phoenixes suffice to straight-up kill one queen with one lift; just imagine how this would turn out later with mass-phoenixes and zerg spread over 4 bases....); corruptors obviously means you can't go for colossi....but you can go for pretty much everything else because there is no way on god's green earth that he can ALSO get hive-tech-units quickly (given that you challenged his third); I never meant you to stay on phoenixes "only" but suggested that you shouldn't give up air-control easily - especially not vs corruptors since forcing him to produce more and more and more of them will turn out really bad for him unless you are stupid enough to tech to colossi of course
I love this build! Double the chronoboost too! Thank you for posting this.
I've yet to test it extensively against my zerg practice partners, but we played a few games and the 15 Nexus felt pretty safe. I tried a few different follow-ups, mostly getting 6 gates up with +1 attack and teching on the Council path. More testing needed for me, but I can see it becoming my standard PvZ build.
works great on maps that favor protoss anyway, which is most of the map pool (blistering, LT, jungle basin, DQ, steppes.
on maps where i can double expand and get my creep spread going, i tend to think i can overpower protoss (xel'naga, metal, shakuras) i mean, if you're going 15 nex into phoenix, i can just drone soooooooo much, you still won't be able to catch up to me in workers even with 2 chrono'd nexuses (nexii?)
On October 14 2010 03:42 AnAngryDingo wrote: on maps where i can double expand and get my creep spread going, i tend to think i can overpower protoss (xel'naga, metal, shakuras) i mean, if you're going 15 nex into phoenix, i can just drone soooooooo much, you still won't be able to catch up to me in workers even with 2 chrono'd nexuses (nexii?)
kinda disagree - imo it depends a lot more whether or not I can defend my natural safely; on xel naga it's a pain - you can harass me with just a couple of lings pretty effectively, forcing me to get a ton of cannons; on shakuras on the other hand I place my pylon down the ramp and wall of the bigger natural-ramp....normally I feel safe with just 2 cannons and get a handful of sentries to block banelings; on shakuras I can get phoenixes EXTREMELY fast and your third will be very spread away which makes you the more vulnerable to phoenixes
actually shakuras has written "15 nexus me" all over it, defending the natural is very easy and - more importantly - there's no third in the close proximity, meaning you can't produce a ball of hydras and cover everything; you will be vulnerable somewhere, no matter what; and once I've killed 2-3 queens + overlords + drones and got my tech in line you will get in trouble at some point
No wall in loses to delayed mass ling all ins which are more common than they probably should be around the 1300 diamond level and not because the lings kill you but because you cant shut down a run by when you decide to move out. I think the 14/15 nexus builds are strongest on maps that do provide some natural barriers that allow you to wall in for obvious reasons that the OP seems to even recognize. While I understand and know from personal experience that to survive a zerg with any build you dont have to wall off, I think since zerg has no real ability to seige (Broodlords are their best seige option) you need to keep them at your chokes for as long as possible. To let them walk up your ramp and into your sim city you are wasting your advantage of even having a choke seige options.
One big advantage to the OPs approach is that it makes muta harass much easier to deal with later on. Given that he is promoting a 6 gate stargate followup I would say that its mostly unnecessary (very seldom have zergs gone muts or continued with muts after spotting the phoenix).
Whatever your preference in terms of base set-up expanding at 15 is both possible and safe in some situations. I personally prefer to go gate - > forge - > 1 cannon at their natural - > expand in the early 20's food-wise, then drop 5 more gates and a twilight for blink. I push at their natural once blink finishes and bring a proxy probe to reinforce. If they've already taken a third its pretty much GG. If they haven't taken a third... its almost GG, if not GG. Ive executed the 6 gate FE with a stargate in there and can vouch for the fact that its strong. Hydras arent as big of a concern as you might think. You have to remember you are producing from 6 gates and with the way targeting works as long as there is something for their hydras to shoot on the ground, they wont attack the phoenix on their own. Its hardly worthwhile for the zerg to micro hydras to kill the phoenix and if they do they will likely lose the fight (alot of wasted DPS due to overshooting and target switching, attack cooldowns, etc.).
Midgame phoenix still give you map control though, and I think thats an important consideration in this MU. I personally believe that these 6 gate openers are the perfect way to safely get to carrier tech, which is something every protoss struggles with. The pressure it applies more often than not kills a zerg outright. If it doesnt kill him it sets him back severely and/or protects your expansion through aggression. You can also easily take a 3rd with that amount of units. For my money against zerg id much rather get to carriers with blink stalkers over any zealot/archon end-game army. If corruptors are a big concern to you then its probably very late game. and its not necessarily a bad idea to throw down an archives and just get some feedbacks in your mix... you dont evne need storm. You just need to feedback the corruptors so your blink stalkers can kill a couple, the carriers will only die if hes mass corruptor, in which case you've already won.
Sorry if I derailed a bit TLDR: I still think its better to wall off than sim city this strat and it should be no harder to defend. I simply wouldn't recommend this build on certain maps (like blistering) because its so hard to take a 3rd. I think a 3 gate pressure into expand or a wall at natural into 6 gate pressure - > third... are better options for macro players.
Seems like an interesting opening but, wouldn't 10 pool speedling, kidna rip you to shreds? Do you have any experience or replays holding off something like this?
Im thinkings: You will not have a cannons everywhere, and you will not have a wall. He can simply hit you where the cannons are not.
On October 14 2010 06:17 Chairman Ray wrote: Since you are walling off so late, how do you deal with early pool? I'm not talking about 14 pool, I'm talking about anywhere between 6 and 11 pool.
Read the guide, he says if you see a 10 or 6 pool you need to abandon this build and most likely go gateway/forge, and that you scout on your 9 pylon for this reason.
You will die to any pool first build. Against a 14 pool, you might have to pull probes to stall for the first cannon to finish (depending on map/rush distance), but it should not do enough damage to put you at a disadvantage. Obviously you won’t be placing a nexus down when facing a 6 pool, and probes do pretty well against zerglings until you can get a cannon up. If you’re losing to a 6 pool then this build is not your problem, it’s your micro/building placement that needs work. Same story against a 10 pool, although honestly in my past 50 games against zerg I haven’t been 10 pooled a single time.
You probably just dont go nexus first if they do a pool a whole lot earlier than 13.
On October 14 2010 06:12 Jayrod wrote: TLDR: I still think its better to wall off than sim city this strat and it should be no harder to defend. I simply wouldn't recommend this build on certain maps (like blistering) because its so hard to take a 3rd. I think a 3 gate pressure into expand or a wall at natural into 6 gate pressure - > third... are better options for macro players.
I think you misunderstood me, I'm only suggesting not walling on certain maps, and walling for others. I will have to disagree with you about the 3rd though... I feel that difficulty in getting a 3rd hurts the zerg a lot more than the toss, since a toss should beat a zerg on equal bases. Plus this isn't BW, zerg's mobility compared to P isn't that great, even with creep (and absolutely horrid without creep).
I made a small update to the guide, hopefully to clear up some common confusion involving the walling/not walling business.
Here's a counting trick I use for workers because I dont think enough people count workers and it can be really informative. It will help you know what you're looking at even if you scout early because to get an early pool they have to drone cut a bit.
Rather than trying to count all the drones, which is impractical... instead you count the mineral patches that have two drones... or at 14 or 15+ workers, deduct how many patches DONT have 2 workers on them from 16. 8 patches.. if 4 patches have 2 drones rotating he has 12 drones, etc. Likewise... if only one patch is being solo mined he has 15...
Anyways count workers, its vital information that alot of people just ignore and it can help you guys that are having trouble telling if someone went pool on 13 or 14.
i had some problems with 3 base zerg players responds to this build.i lost 2 game today.after watching the replays he had more workers than me.and icant choose the timing attack.if we add some cost effetive units to this build like collo or temp how much our 6 warp push delay?
On October 14 2010 08:55 ssregitoss wrote: i had some problems with 3 base zerg players responds to this build.i lost 2 game today.after watching the replays he had more workers than me.and icant choose the timing attack.if we add some cost effetive units to this build like collo or temp how much our 6 warp push delay?
If you're losing to 3 base zerg try experimenting with other transitions, such as skipping the stargate and going straight for the 6 warpgates to stop the 3rd base, or dual robo for immortal/colossi and coming out with an unstoppable ball.
On October 14 2010 06:12 Jayrod wrote: TLDR: I still think its better to wall off than sim city this strat and it should be no harder to defend. I simply wouldn't recommend this build on certain maps (like blistering) because its so hard to take a 3rd. I think a 3 gate pressure into expand or a wall at natural into 6 gate pressure - > third... are better options for macro players.
I think you misunderstood me, I'm only suggesting not walling on certain maps, and walling for others. I will have to disagree with you about the 3rd though... I feel that difficulty in getting a 3rd hurts the zerg a lot more than the toss, since a toss should beat a zerg on equal bases.
exactly this
I played a game last night vs a 1,2k zerg on shakuras where I went for fast double stargate, it came down to phoenixes vs mutalisks (game itself was horrible...was already tired, I did sport before that, was a bit dizzy, misclicked the whole time....) although he took his third quite in time, he couldn't really establish a good economy because he constantly had to refill his muta count; so after a while at about ~15 minutes into the game the superiority of phoenixes kicked in and I ripped his third to shreds killing countless drones; although I stacked up ~3-4k minerals and was always quite low on gas, I could easily tech to a huge stalker/colossi-ball and overrun him; from re-watching the rep I saw that he played better on the macro-part; way better; but he NEVER got enough gas for anything decent after sticking with mutas for too long; without it, he would've lost his third way earlier though or couldn't have established it in the first place
this is the true strenght of phoenixes after nexus first on large maps, that you can completely control the mass-expand from zerg and ALSO take a third yourself quite undisturbed
Pretty sure it still stands. If it's possible to hold up to a hydra bust, it's also possible to hold up to a roach bust. Everything that Z can throw at you T1 and T1.5 is largely unchanged save for the Roach, and after playing with it the difference is marginal and will only help out with large scale battles and against MMM or Stalker balls.
What's to stop a Z that opens with speedlings from simply ignoring your nat and running into your main to attack your workers/main nexus? Looking at the building formations you posted it protects your nat workers/nexus well but how does it protect your main from a sling runby?
On October 15 2010 12:44 Oceanic wrote: What's to stop a Z that opens with speedlings from simply ignoring your nat and running into your main to attack your workers/main nexus? Looking at the building formations you posted it protects your nat workers/nexus well but how does it protect your main from a sling runby?
holy crap i wrote the TL;DR section just for people like you. please read.
Regarding the new patch, I haven't played any games yet so I can't say for sure, but my guess is that although it'll still be doable, fending off early roach aggression will be much harder, and may even require some kind of modification to the build. I'll make an update after I play some games with the new patch.
On October 15 2010 12:44 Oceanic wrote: What's to stop a Z that opens with speedlings from simply ignoring your nat and running into your main to attack your workers/main nexus? Looking at the building formations you posted it protects your nat workers/nexus well but how does it protect your main from a sling runby?
holy crap i wrote the TL;DR section just for people like you. please read.
Regarding the new patch, I haven't played any games yet so I can't say for sure, but my guess is that although it'll still be doable, fending off early roach aggression will be much harder, and may even require some kind of modification to the build. I'll make an update after I play some games with the new patch.
had quite a bit of truoble with early roach aggression.
What if a zerg just balls out doubles expands? It doesn't seem like the nexus first would deal any pressure with the zerg being greedy. At that point it would be who can power a better eco and macro harder for the win. You'll be sinking alot into defenses- and if you thought defending against 3 base zerg was hard wait till they hit their 4th and have enough gas to mass produce whatever
On October 15 2010 13:58 Zvendetta wrote: What if a zerg just balls out doubles expands? It doesn't seem like the nexus first would deal any pressure with the zerg being greedy. At that point it would be who can power a better eco and macro harder for the win. You'll be sinking alot into defenses- and if you thought defending against 3 base zerg was hard wait till they hit their 4th and have enough gas to mass produce whatever
I guess that's how theocrafting works. I myself do a 15 nex into a 8 gateway blink stalker push. You don't make any units until 40 probes or so. Pretty much it's impossible to have more drones than workers and survive the push if you double expand. I have a replay of a low diamond double expand vs this build and making nothing but drones, a dozen lings, and 4 spine crawlers, yet when I rolled in 3 rounds of warped in stalkers he died.
Overall it's a great build, the troubles I have is scouting what they have to place cannons accordingly. Usually what I face is 2 bae tech by them into muta/hydra and lings. Stalkers arrive in time to deal with muta and hydra and lings can't really break 4 cannons and a forge + gateway not letting them attack.
Although I lost with this build 5 times in maybe last 50 times I used it. I saw only lings with probe so I didn't make many cannons, only to be greeted by banelings and killed. I have died to a nydus in my main with streaming roaches, Id imagine a drop would work just fine... And a couple times I didn't make my wall ling tight so I could get out and use a couple probes to block the enterance but they managed to get through.
Great build overall. Works well vs anything besides a 7 pool usually, especially on a map like lost temple where if he's in the second scouting position your forge goes down at 14 supply which is usually too late.
Even if a cannon is directly behind a gateway/forge without a gap, a roach can attack the gateway without getting hit by the cannon if the zerg player positions the roach at an angle correctly.
Also stalker kiting roaches is next to impossible now.
FE builds is a lot more vulnerable to roaches post patch.
I think it's scary/stupid that OP and his build easily takes down Zergs when he's not even playing to full potential. Not trying to criticize OP by any means, but if he used chronos better and a little higher apm, it would make the already big gateway/phoenix timing push window even bigger and make it all too easy to throw up a 3rd/tech while applying pressure so even if you don't win right there, you're at equal bases and better off economically. I honestly feel the best and maybe only counter to this build as Zerg is double expand, but stay tier1 units roach/sling/bling and get a bunch of queens to get passed the timing push then tech/counter/expand.
With new roaches though, this will need a revamp, 2base roach or even 1 base can just snipe in the timing window of low units/only cannons making half of what I said irrelevant lol, oh well.
wow i cant believe one of my fav builds vs zerg have been totally destroyed, iv tried 5 games in a row 15nexus vs zerg, i just cant hold the first push of roaches + some lings (i tried fast stalks, more cannons, fast stargate - it just dont work because zerg comes in waay before u can tech to smth usefull)
i rly doubt that this build is viable now, fast roach push totally counter this ;'(
On October 15 2010 18:30 kidd wrote: With new roaches though, this will need a revamp, 2base roach or even 1 base can just snipe in the timing window of low units/only cannons making half of what I said irrelevant lol, oh well.
honestly, I simply think it will need the better scouting - because if zerg really commits to an attack it ALWAYS comes down to just holding it...because afterwards you are just so far ahead it's not even funny
stalkers still do exceptionally well vs roaches and there are many maps where you can do some clever cannon-placement (LT and BS: cannons on the ledge; shakuras: cannons on natural-ramp; force fields to prevent units getting vision of the high ground); I was sceptical earlier, but now with roach range 4 I highly doubt a FE can hold cost-effectively (!) on xel naga and delta quadrant
Hey Anihc, can you upload some new replays from 1.2 please? On low level pc´s the older replays for some freaking reason takes ages to load, also we surelly like to see how to handle the new roaches. Btw thx for the amazing guide again ^ ^
On October 15 2010 18:30 kidd wrote: I think it's scary/stupid that OP and his build easily takes down Zergs when he's not even playing to full potential. Not trying to criticize OP by any means, but if he used chronos better and a little higher apm, it would make the already big gateway/phoenix timing push window even bigger and make it all too easy to throw up a 3rd/tech while applying pressure so even if you don't win right there, you're at equal bases and better off economically. I honestly feel the best and maybe only counter to this build as Zerg is double expand, but stay tier1 units roach/sling/bling and get a bunch of queens to get passed the timing push then tech/counter/expand.
No, I agree with you 100%, and already made the same criticism of myself :
On October 11 2010 05:32 Anihc wrote: You might also notice that my micro is sloppy, and my macro is even worse. I shoot up past 1k many times, and still beat players better than me. You don’t need to be a 200 apm korean amateur to pull this build off.
On October 15 2010 18:30 kidd wrote: With new roaches though, this will need a revamp, 2base roach or even 1 base can just snipe in the timing window of low units/only cannons making half of what I said irrelevant lol, oh well.
honestly, I simply think it will need the better scouting - because if zerg really commits to an attack it ALWAYS comes down to just holding it...because afterwards you are just so far ahead it's not even funny
stalkers still do exceptionally well vs roaches and there are many maps where you can do some clever cannon-placement (LT and BS: cannons on the ledge; shakuras: cannons on natural-ramp; force fields to prevent units getting vision of the high ground); I was sceptical earlier, but now with roach range 4 I highly doubt a FE can hold cost-effectively (!) on xel naga and delta quadrant
This. You will always be able to defend an attack if you can scout it early enough, and if the zerg commits to an attack you can "waste" money on 10 cannons and still come out ahead. That's much easier said than done of course, and with the new roach buff I agree this will probably not really be viable on some maps now.
Played 3 games last night on ladder with it (all versus ~2100 zergs), I'm at work right now so I can't post reps but here's how they went:
loss on metal: lost to roach/speedling. Poor scouting, only had 1 cannon up by the time attack came. Held off roaches for awhile with cannon/stalker, but roaches were able to snipe wall and then speedlings came in and GG. I still think metal is a decent map for this build, but need to come up with better way to wall so I can fit in more cannons somewhere. Also I forgot to make sentries, which sucked.
win on LT: LT is still a great map for this build I think. I denied the zerg's quick 3rd with chrono'ed zealots out of my first gateway, and the zerg canceled and switched to 2 base roach/ling bust. I was easily able to hold it off with cannon/stalker/sentry due to the nice layout of the LT natural, and I rode out the advantage for the win.
loss on xel'naga: zerg played a standard macro game and took the gold as a 3rd. Phoenix harass was moderately successful, and I win the first battle at his gold, but was unable to kill the hatch before reinforcements came and pushed me back (the zerg hatch life buff might have made a difference here lol). I had also expanded to the gold by this point, but I lost it because of sub-par mid-late game multitasking. Again, I think xel'naga has some potential to still work with this build, just need to work out a new way to defend natural against early roaches.
Hey, I don't have a replay because I forgot to save it but I can describe the game pretty well.
PvZ on Blistering Sands, I decide to use this build, placing my Pylon at the natural choke in anticipation of the wall off. While my scouting Probe is on the way, I see a drone coming towards my base, which seemed REALLY early by my standards but I didn't think much of it.
I got to his base and recognized that he was going for a Hatch first build of his own, so I was feeling pretty smart with my 15Nex opening.
After a while, I noticed that he didn't put his pool down at what would be normal timing, and I get a gut feeling that he might be doing some ballsy 3-Hatch-before-pool build because he super early scout saw me going Nexus first.
As soon as I put down the Nexus and realize that he's not building a pool (suspected Proxy hatch lol), I cut Probes and add 2 Gateways to seal off my entrance. I use my initial scouting Probe to check around the map and sure enough, he has taken a 3rd base before putting down his pool.
Now at this point, I'm thinking that by going 2Gate instead of Gate + Forge, I'm gonna be able to roll this kid. He took the expansion near my destructible rocks, and I had forward 2Gate with saved Chrono boost. When my first Zealot arrives, he has 2 Lings and started a Spine Crawler. By the time my next wave shows up, he is streaming in Lings and overwhelming my production capability. As a strike against myself, I did unfortunately supply block for about 3-5 seconds after my first Zealot.
I watched the replay myself and I just don't get it. I wish I had saved it so you could get a better idea.
Did I react wrong? What would be the proper response to scouting a 3Hatch before Pool when you have decided (and committed) to Nexus first?
Don't panic. You don't need to kill him asap because a 3rd expo that fast isn't even giving him that much of an advantage - his queen will be much later and therefore he'll actually have less drones. Just play normally, maybe pressure him with chrono'ed zealots out of 1 gate but definitely don't cut probes and overcommit with some 2 gate attack.
Oh I resumed Probe production, I just cut to get both Gates down asap. After ~5 Zealots, I realized this isn't going to work and started to tech, but eventually went on to lose the game to Hydra/Roach because I teched wrong and was unable to scout.
So you would just play it out normal and let him take it? I kind of freaked out because of how close it was to my base, I was worried about getting contained if I let it go up.
On October 15 2010 13:58 Zvendetta wrote: What if a zerg just balls out doubles expands? It doesn't seem like the nexus first would deal any pressure with the zerg being greedy. At that point it would be who can power a better eco and macro harder for the win. You'll be sinking alot into defenses- and if you thought defending against 3 base zerg was hard wait till they hit their 4th and have enough gas to mass produce whatever
I guess that's how theocrafting works. I myself do a 15 nex into a 8 gateway blink stalker push. You don't make any units until 40 probes or so. Pretty much it's impossible to have more drones than workers and survive the push if you double expand. I have a replay of a low diamond double expand vs this build and making nothing but drones, a dozen lings, and 4 spine crawlers, yet when I rolled in 3 rounds of warped in stalkers he died.
Overall it's a great build, the troubles I have is scouting what they have to place cannons accordingly. Usually what I face is 2 bae tech by them into muta/hydra and lings. Stalkers arrive in time to deal with muta and hydra and lings can't really break 4 cannons and a forge + gateway not letting them attack.
Although I lost with this build 5 times in maybe last 50 times I used it. I saw only lings with probe so I didn't make many cannons, only to be greeted by banelings and killed. I have died to a nydus in my main with streaming roaches, Id imagine a drop would work just fine... And a couple times I didn't make my wall ling tight so I could get out and use a couple probes to block the enterance but they managed to get through.
Great build overall. Works well vs anything besides a 7 pool usually, especially on a map like lost temple where if he's in the second scouting position your forge goes down at 14 supply which is usually too late.
How do you usually deal with muta ling? Can you post a replay?
Roach busts are infinitely more threatening vs cannon expands now that they have 4 range. We're going to have to start using more cannons and SPRINTING for mass stalker I think.
On October 16 2010 05:22 kcdc wrote: Roach busts are infinitely more threatening vs cannon expands now that they have 4 range. We're going to have to start using more cannons and SPRINTING for mass stalker I think.
Yea, in the NEXGenius vs Cool rep, Genius actually goes nexus > forge > gate > cannon even in the face of 14 pool, getting that gate down (and eventual stalkers) even earlier than normal. We might have to always start doing something like that. Might also have to cut a few probes at some point...
I think (apart from the abject terror that is fighting a 6pool with just probes while a cannon builds) my biggest worry doing this is fighting against the zerg who responds to nexus first by taking a third.
What I don't like about this about this guide is that it's very vague in the details.
The build order in your guide states 9 pylon + scout into 15 nexus which is simply not possible without a huge probe cut or not using chronoboost at all. If you chronoboost your probes and scout at 9 you can only get a nexus down at 17. After that you will have to put up a forge or gateway soon and a pylon so you will get a huge probe cut that I wonder if it's even worth it then. If you don't scout and didn't place your pylon in a way that you can wall off a 6 or 9 pool is simply lethal most of the time. Off all the replays I checked (about 5 at random) you scout at 12 or 13 instead of 9 (like the guide states or is vague about). This will let you get the nexus at 15 which is a huge difference for the smoothness of the build really. A 15 nexus 15 forge works ok but a 17 nexus 17 forge will get you another probecut at 18 pop. The gateway will be delayed by a ton as well making it vulnerable to roach stuff etc.
Now with 9 pylon, 12 scout 15 nexus this is quite a solid strat, BUT it will lose to anything faster then a 10 pool as by the time you arrive at their base at the earliest you will be placing your nexus. Even if you do scout the 9 pool or so coming in the forge will go down when you are at 15 food already AT THE EARLIEST and you won't have a wall. I simply don't see how that is not autolose. So either I'm missing something or the guide and the replays just don't mesh (ie. the guide talks about fantasy build times which aren't possible) and it isn't as safe as you make it seem.
On fairly large 2 player maps a pylon at the ramp can be safe probably with a 12 scout I think. You are bound to see the incoming zerglings then and could throw down a 14 forge along with a pylon wall-in. Then you could cannon up and be safe.
On October 18 2010 10:10 Markwerf wrote: What I don't like about this about this guide is that it's very vague in the details.
The build order in your guide states 9 pylon + scout into 15 nexus which is simply not possible without a huge probe cut or not using chronoboost at all. If you chronoboost your probes and scout at 9 you can only get a nexus down at 17. After that you will have to put up a forge or gateway soon and a pylon so you will get a huge probe cut that I wonder if it's even worth it then. If you don't scout and didn't place your pylon in a way that you can wall off a 6 or 9 pool is simply lethal most of the time. Off all the replays I checked (about 5 at random) you scout at 12 or 13 instead of 9 (like the guide states or is vague about). This will let you get the nexus at 15 which is a huge difference for the smoothness of the build really. A 15 nexus 15 forge works ok but a 17 nexus 17 forge will get you another probecut at 18 pop. The gateway will be delayed by a ton as well making it vulnerable to roach stuff etc.
Now with 9 pylon, 12 scout 15 nexus this is quite a solid strat, BUT it will lose to anything faster then a 10 pool as by the time you arrive at their base at the earliest you will be placing your nexus. Even if you do scout the 9 pool or so coming in the forge will go down when you are at 15 food already AT THE EARLIEST and you won't have a wall. I simply don't see how that is not autolose. So either I'm missing something or the guide and the replays just don't mesh (ie. the guide talks about fantasy build times which aren't possible) and it isn't as safe as you make it seem.
On fairly large 2 player maps a pylon at the ramp can be safe probably with a 12 scout I think. You are bound to see the incoming zerglings then and could throw down a 14 forge along with a pylon wall-in. Then you could cannon up and be safe.
I guess I was a bit unclear, there will be a small probe cut at 15 supply in order to get the nexus down at 15. I already noted and explained that there are going to be discrepancies between my guide and the replays, because some of the replays are from a long time ago while I was still developing this strategy/guide. I don't think any of my replays have nexus as late as 17 though, and considering that this guide is titled "15 Nexus" I don't think I would go so far as to be vague about that :p
BTW, regarding this build post 1.12: I didn't get a chance to ladder much this weekend but for the few games I played, this build still works just as well on LT (and other maps like LT) as before. I've been roach rushed almost every game and have been able to hold it off with cannons behind a wall just like before. For other maps though, I'll still need to play around a bit with this and then I'll make an update to the guide.
Nice guide overall. Making me want to switch to P lol.
Just theorycrafting a bit. Will a fast phoenix build after the initial stage be a good counter to roach pressure (lifting them to disable) in 1.1.2? The timing and resources are possible though I am not sure how effective will it be.
Also, is it viable for some Void Ray play after 4~6 Phoenixes ?
On October 16 2010 02:02 yarkO wrote: Did I react wrong? What would be the proper response to scouting a 3Hatch before Pool when you have decided (and committed) to Nexus first?
tbh 3 hatch vs 2 base protoss provides for very balanced matchups - because zerg needs some time to really capitalize on his economical advantage and 2 base protoss is helluva strong as it is
if I see a double expand I normally go straight 2 gate into 2 stargate, get a couple of sentries and sink my minerals into cannons; I've always managed to put really hard pressure on with my phoenixes because zerg just can't have that much anti-air at this point; on blistering sands I normally make a complete wall-off anyways with the intention of busting my own rocks when I feel like it's time to move out
also do NOT underestimate the strength of mass-phoenixes vs hydras; hydras my have awsome DPS, but if you have outnumbered them slightly (which will be the case in the early stages of 2 stargate vs double expand) they die like flies because phoenixes do bonus-damage vs them; just easy math: phoenix do 20 damage vs light and hydras have 80 hp; so if you have a nice phoenix-force they are pretty much one-shotted; therefore you should be able to put really nice pressure on zerg
On October 18 2010 19:44 Wolf wrote: Tried this A LOT and found limited success. Early drone scouts know this is coming and will block your Nexus and this could totally crush you.
same with zerg's hatch first - pull an additional probe and put down the forge in the process; then you have a forge FE that's still decent
On October 18 2010 19:44 Wolf wrote: Tried this A LOT and found limited success. Early drone scouts know this is coming and will block your Nexus and this could totally crush you.
A hatch block for zerg is not as bad as a nexus block is for protoss really. This is for several reasons: - the hatch comes down earlier as the nexus as it is cheaper. - a hatch costs 300 and a pool 200 so the difference in builds between hatch first and pool first is very little in timing. If you block their hatch they cna easily go pool first and hardly notice it (you lose about as much by having send the early probe as they lose to the hatch block really). For protoss the difference is huge as a nexus block means you have 400 minerals stored and if you put a forge down then you got a severely worse build order. - zerg's build system stored production so cutting drones a bit for the hatch isn't too bad as they can immediately build up a few more drones if they get blocked and be fine, with protoss you are already probe cutting making it far worse.
If you feel you are going to get nexus blocked you really need to pull 2 probes asap or your entire build order can get ruined. If you switch into a forge FE at that point you open the way for the zerg to win by double expanding.
I would like to know what the OP really thinks the best build order is. I think if you 9 pylon 9 scout into 15 nexus you are getting too big a probe cut at 15. I estimate you have to cut probes for about 20 secs if you want to go that way. With such a huge probe cut and the tech delay this build gets, not too mention being forced to get forge+cannons against 14 pool which might not even mean ling pressure, i'm not too sure if this is too good a build at most maps. I like it at the maps where you only need 1 cannon or no cannons to defend vs 14 pool but think it's a bit counterproductive on others. I mean 14 pool is economically better as 14 hatch for zerg (the reason to 14 hatch is only to have less chance of a hatch block and making the hatch a bit easier to defend because it's done earlier) and will force you into a cannon + forge + a substantial probe cut. By simply droning and not attacking they get quite a big advantage then, especially as your tech delay and investment in cannons means they are free to take their third.
I'm trying to get a building placement that will work with 12 scouting which can still win against a 6-pool. That would make the probe cut alot less and make it economically a lot smoother putting you less behind if the zerg happens to do 14-pool into mass droning.
For example if you change your first pylon placement a bit for those maps where you only need to cannon your expansion (where this strat is best) you could go something like this to improve your game against 6 pools without needing to scout so fast.
An example for steppes of war. The red numbers indicate the order to make the buildings. First pylon at the edge of the ramp. Scout on 12 and your probe arrives at the opponents base around 2:10 at steppes of war. If you see a 6-pool going on (which arrives at your door at 2:45 roughly) you can immediately make a forge and gateway (as noted by the numbers 2). These along with your first pylon will wall you in completely. Then make a pylon behind the wall as zerg will probably knock down your pylon, which can only be hit by 3 zerglings max though so will take a while. If the pylon falls you can setup a additional gateway to seal yourself off again (number 4) so you get time to place your cannons (number 5) which are powered by your additional pylon. When the wall busts you need to buy some time with probes for your cannons to finish but you should be far ahead then. If he backs off you can simply cancel the additional gateway and knock down the pylon yourself to open your wall again. This build also allows you to easily cannon expand at your nexus as the pylon on top of the ramp powers cannons placed directly next to it (as shown by the blue lines).
I think these kind of wall-ins which are possible for LT and metapolis as well are a better way to place your buildings. You are relatively safe against 6-pools with them but don't need to scout on 9. Also if you scout a 14 pool you can just go 15 nexus and start placing cannons near your nexus to defend.
On October 18 2010 21:00 Markwerf wrote: A hatch block for zerg is not as bad as a nexus block is for protoss really. This is for several reasons: - the hatch comes down earlier as the nexus as it is cheaper. - a hatch costs 300 and a pool 200 so the difference in builds between hatch first and pool first is very little in timing. If you block their hatch they cna easily go pool first and hardly notice it (you lose about as much by having send the early probe as they lose to the hatch block really). For protoss the difference is huge as a nexus block means you have 400 minerals stored and if you put a forge down then you got a severely worse build order.
tell that to tester, who I've seen adjusting with 15 forge into nexus against 14 pool-scouts; it really doesn't matter if you put down the forge on 12 or on 15, if he 6-pools you need to abandon your normal BO anyways, if he doesn't your cannons will definitely go up with 15 forge; your build won't be severely worse at all, you just get a normal forge FE with slightly delayed forge, that's all
It seems like the replays of your games vs. early all-in pressure didn't involve wall-offs at all. That makes me wonder if the roach range changes really affects this much...
....... I want to point out the flaws of this build. But you did such a good job writing it and you were so thorough. So good thread, interesting albeit rather risky idea.
Without the rocks, there would be two entrances into the initial base, and terran plyaers would guaranteed lose to 6 pool and 2 gate every single game.
Don't get me wrong I have lost to a well timed all in, however if it's defended usually zerg will get punished - generally or not us toss can crawl back up
NEXGenuis GSL - watched his game last night - amazing
Updated with a few new post 1.12 reps. This build still works on all maps, with the exception of DQ now.
Also it seems like zergs I'm facing are getting better and better at reacting to this build. I'm losing regularly now to macro zergs who know the timing of the 6-8 warpgate attack and know how to maximize early game droning and quickly get out enough units to defend their 3rd. That doesn't mean this build sucks though, it just means I can't easily walk over players much better than me just because they don't know what to do against 15 nex :p
My strategy now against double expo is to not be too aggressive, and instead try to keep up the macro game by getting my own 3rd down earlier, and then teching to dual robo for a huge protoss ball backed by immortal/colossi (not too fast though). It's much easier fighting zerg off creep than on creep - i.e. it's much easier to engage the zerg by defending your 3rd rather than attacking the zerg's 3rd. Of course, if the opportunity presents itself and I scout the zerg being too greedy, I won't hesitate to attack.
Extremely well written guide! And updated after the new patch also! Many many thanks for this! I'm just a little curious of how to wall off properly on Xel'naga.You referred to the new game on metalopolis but Xelnaga just seems a little different than metal so I would greatly apprieciate if you could upload a replay of a game on xelnaga as well!
Without the rocks, there would be two entrances into the initial base, and terran plyaers would guaranteed lose to 6 pool and 2 gate every single game.
So no, the rocks are needed.
Then remove the map. The thirds are too hard to secure as a zerg...
Thanks so much i was looking for a new PvZ build and this is working well for me, thanks for the effort its definatly fun to have a nice safe fast expand that you can do anything from.
Ok i see you are doing 16 nexus instead of 15 nexus now in your 1.1.2 games. Makes much more sense, I in fact think 17 nexus is even better. The timing of the nexus itself is not so relevant really, getting it a few secs later doesn't matter much as getting a extra probe early on is a much bigger economy boost (as you don't have saturation yet). 16 or 17 nex also allows you to chronoboost 3 times early on instead of 2 times making it all the better, you have hardly any use for your chronoboost in this strategy anyway. If you scout 14 hatch 14 pool (like you did on the 1.1.2 metapolis replay) I think you could consider going 16 nexus 16 gateway 17 pylon 18 gateway. They won't have roaches soon with such a build and on metapolis and lost temple it's easy to wall the entrance to your base with nexus and double gateway. That way you don't have to spend so much on cannons and you are much better off against 3 base play. As you have a much earlier gateway and thus cybercore as well you should be having stalkers in time to defend against roaches. Against a roach / ling mix you can simply use the sim city in your natural + a sentry or 2 to defend. It would require a few more probe cuts then the 17 forge build but you would have more invested in units instead of cannons so it's worth it I think. It pays off by having quicker tech and more units with a slightly worse economy. In addition earlier stalkers are much easier for defending roach pressure then more cannons imo, since the range upgrade you just lose your wall buildings to roaches way too fast (or be forced to make a abundance of cannons).
14 hatch 14 pool gets the pool at roughly 2:40. 16 nex 16 gate gets gate at roughly 2:55. Pool finishes at 3:45 gate at 4:00. Lings take 24 secs to hatch, chronoboosted zealots take about 25. At 4:10 max 8 lings will head to your base, you will have 1 zealot at 4:25 and 2 more soon. Walk distance at even the shortest spawns is at least 20 secs for lings so it is doable to defend ling pressure from a 14 hatch without forge and cannons. In the same way you can defend roach pressure from 14 hatch without cannons as can have 2 stalkers and 3 more soon by the time roaches get to your base.
I really like this strat at jungle basin, metapolis, LT and shakuras plateau at the moment. Those maps allow you to defend a 14 hatch without needing a forge and also quite important they allow you to easily wall in while putting your first pylon on top of the ramp (which is the safest way against 6 pools).
Example of LT setup:
First pylon on top can be used to wallin yourself with forge + gateway against 6 pool. Also powers up the gateway at the bottom of the ramp. Against 14 hatch: 9 pylon + scout, 16 nexus, 16 gateway, 17 pylon, 18 gateway. Buildings placed as seen in picture will wall in your entrance forcing lings to go around the nexus. Between geyser and pylon is a gap that can be plugged with a zealot if you fill up route behind the geyser (for example with a cybercore as shown here).
I think such a setup leaves you at a much better midgame against 14 hatch then a forge because you can pressure them if they try to get a third or you can secure a third yourself more easily. You can hold off roach pressure by simply kiting with stalkers and perhaps a single sentry.
Without the rocks, there would be two entrances into the initial base, and terran plyaers would guaranteed lose to 6 pool and 2 gate every single game.
So no, the rocks are needed.
Then remove the map. The thirds are too hard to secure as a zerg...
.....Because you have to lay down more than two creep tumors to make a highway? How is the third any different from Xel Naga Caverns, Steppes of War, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, or any other map that isn't Lost Temple or Metalopolis? If you want to discuss the imbalance of this map, make a thread or use the search function to find one rather than flooding this thread.
To the OP. Watch the replays and started practicing this build. It is remarkably hard for the Z player to punish unless they scout you very early(like at 8 supply). Consider my skepticism rebuked.
On October 19 2010 07:58 tangz wrote: Don't get me wrong I have lost to a well timed all in, however if it's defended usually zerg will get punished - generally or not us toss can crawl back up
NEXGenuis GSL - watched his game last night - amazing
I find that the attempt to all in after scouting this build is what causes so many zerg players to lose to it. I have 2 cannons behind gateways/forge at either base and you come in with 20 lings? They have to run all the way around the buildings while getting shot and then they get probe blocked and only 3 or 4 lings end up attacking while the rest run around. Then you have the players who try to roach rush (more effective than lings but still bad) and end up getting pushed back by stalkers. If the zerg player would just stick to droning on their 2 base while we made cannons and then massing up hydras with a few roaches they would have a much better chance of killing you.
Ok i see you are doing 16 nexus instead of 15 nexus now in your 1.1.2 games. Makes much more sense, I in fact think 17 nexus is even better. The timing of the nexus itself is not so relevant really, getting it a few secs later doesn't matter much as getting a extra probe early on is a much bigger economy boost (as you don't have saturation yet). 16 or 17 nex also allows you to chronoboost 3 times early on instead of 2 times making it all the better, you have hardly any use for your chronoboost in this strategy anyway. If you scout 14 hatch 14 pool (like you did on the 1.1.2 metapolis replay) I think you could consider going 16 nexus 16 gateway 17 pylon 18 gateway. They won't have roaches soon with such a build and on metapolis and lost temple it's easy to wall the entrance to your base with nexus and double gateway. That way you don't have to spend so much on cannons and you are much better off against 3 base play. As you have a much earlier gateway and thus cybercore as well you should be having stalkers in time to defend against roaches. Against a roach / ling mix you can simply use the sim city in your natural + a sentry or 2 to defend. It would require a few more probe cuts then the 17 forge build but you would have more invested in units instead of cannons so it's worth it I think. It pays off by having quicker tech and more units with a slightly worse economy. In addition earlier stalkers are much easier for defending roach pressure then more cannons imo, since the range upgrade you just lose your wall buildings to roaches way too fast (or be forced to make a abundance of cannons).
14 hatch 14 pool gets the pool at roughly 2:40. 16 nex 16 gate gets gate at roughly 2:55. Pool finishes at 3:45 gate at 4:00. Lings take 24 secs to hatch, chronoboosted zealots take about 25. At 4:10 max 8 lings will head to your base, you will have 1 zealot at 4:25 and 2 more soon. Walk distance at even the shortest spawns is at least 20 secs for lings so it is doable to defend ling pressure from a 14 hatch without forge and cannons. In the same way you can defend roach pressure from 14 hatch without cannons as can have 2 stalkers and 3 more soon by the time roaches get to your base.
I really like this strat at jungle basin, metapolis, LT and shakuras plateau at the moment. Those maps allow you to defend a 14 hatch without needing a forge and also quite important they allow you to easily wall in while putting your first pylon on top of the ramp (which is the safest way against 6 pools).
Example of LT setup:
First pylon on top can be used to wallin yourself with forge + gateway against 6 pool. Also powers up the gateway at the bottom of the ramp. Against 14 hatch: 9 pylon + scout, 16 nexus, 16 gateway, 17 pylon, 18 gateway. Buildings placed as seen in picture will wall in your entrance forcing lings to go around the nexus. Between geyser and pylon is a gap that can be plugged with a zealot if you fill up route behind the geyser (for example with a cybercore as shown here).
I think such a setup leaves you at a much better midgame against 14 hatch then a forge because you can pressure them if they try to get a third or you can secure a third yourself more easily. You can hold off roach pressure by simply kiting with stalkers and perhaps a single sentry.
That's an interesting idea - FEing without the forge. I'd be scared to have to defend any sort of early aggression without cannons, but I guess it could work. Do you have any replays of doing this?
On October 16 2010 05:22 kcdc wrote: Roach busts are infinitely more threatening vs cannon expands now that they have 4 range. We're going to have to start using more cannons and SPRINTING for mass stalker I think.
Yes, I find the only way to hold off heavy roach pushes by getting stalkers as soon as possible. I've only tried this build a few times post-patch, but stalkers are extremely key to holding. Also cannon placement becomes a bit trickier.
Also, if you know they are going for a roach bust you can crank out a couple void rays. Ideally you would send them into his base asap to stop any hydras/mutas that he might be transitioning into, then go to work on his probes. He probalby won't have any static defense and even if he takes out your natural you can cannon up your main and hold him off while still being on one base. I really like this idea better than phoenix harass at this point unless you were so busy defending you are concerned he had time to build a spire.
Maybe it only worked because i'm in platinum, but VR seems to be a solid response to roach busting your FE, perhaps a seasoned diamond could comment.
I successfully pulled off this build against a diamond level player going baneling bust last night. On two separate occasions he busted my front defense, killed all my zealots and cannons, and half my probes, but with 2 nexus chrono boosting more probes out I still stayed ahead in economy and went on to win with a massive midgame army. If you keep up with your chrono boosting at all times and bring your probes out to defend early (like as soon as you see the lings/blings knocking on your door) I think you can hold even well-executed baneling busts with this build. Just try to make sure the banelings are gone before sending the probes into the fray lol
I've been having problems with zergs that are comfortable with just sitting back and droning and taking a quick 3rd. At first they're using roaches and lings to hold off any of my aggression and then they transition to a giant muta cloud supported by corruptors to completely deny my pheonixes while harassing my base with the mutas. What are your guy's thoughts on dealing with this? I was thinking that my initial push in the future would consist of DTs and a random assortment of other gateway units and using unupgraded templars to feedback any overseers.
I feel pretty hesistant taking a relatively quick 3rd because of the possible muta/corruptors flying around the map to deny any pheonix defense as well.
Just have to find the timing... once it turns into an econ game like that the key is just to hit him like 30 seconds before his muta cloud is ready with an optimized force. As for how to do that... well that's the kind of intuition that only practice can bring =[
I'd say just double forge early and hit him when you're at 2-2. The DT idea sounds great too; DTs in general are really strong against zerg now since overlords no longer detect. They 1 hit lings and drones, tear down buildings, and take away zerg's option to expand without thinking about it; now instead of just plopping down a hatch at another base instead of his main and getting the extra income in addition to the extra production which he needed anyways, now if he wants to expand he needs to worry about detection which takes tech, time, resources, and energy. At first I was unhappy that DTs and HTs now require separate buildings but considering how much better DTs have become especially in pvz it's understandable.
@ Suerte, how are corruptors denying a phoenix defense?? Corruptors do beat phoenix but they don't kill them quickly (they just last very long). Phoenixes against muta/corruptor will just have your phoenixes wipe out his muta's while he will be left with useless corruptors, which you can easily outrun if you have phoenix left. If he keeps making corruptor/muta just keep making phoenix and push with zealot/phoenix/stalker(/archon) making sure to get some attack upgrades on your zealots. +1 zealot/stalker/phoenix absolutely demolishes muta/corruptor/ling. If he has spine crawlers set up just try to deny his 3rd and get a 3rd your own and start adding archons to your army.
@ anihc ill try to get some replays of a forgeless defense but I'm not finding zerg on ladder on that 14 hatch alot on those maps where it is possible (for some weird reason).
On October 20 2010 21:28 Markwerf wrote: @ Suerte, how are corruptors denying a phoenix defense?? Corruptors do beat phoenix but they don't kill them quickly (they just last very long). Phoenixes against muta/corruptor will just have your phoenixes wipe out his muta's while he will be left with useless corruptors, which you can easily outrun if you have phoenix left.
this
it seems like many ppl are just theorycrafting instead of trying it out; phoenixes kill mutas MUCH faster than corruptors kill phoenixes; so you can just kill the mutas and LOL at the remaining corruptors flying around uselessly; zerg will have sunk minerals and you can mass-gate or tech to templar
EDIT: also corruptors means a) less mutas and b) a much slower flying ball, you have actually time to bring in your stalkers as well because they can't leave their muta-ball unprotected and have to adjust their movement-speed to the speed of corruptors
Thanks, I'll try that next time. I'm usually a bit wary when it comes to directly engaging with phoenixes because especially at that point in the game I'm at about 6-8 while there are around 12 mutas and like 6 corruptors but sure I'll start targeting the mutas when they come in from now on.
The only issue I have with trading armies in this instance is that unless you can get into their mineral line and do damage, the Zerg player can easily just slam out another round of mutalisks and then you're kind of screwed (unless you brought stalkers along into the fight to pick off mutas faster/get some corruptors.)
Zerg players are loving them some early roach pressure vs cannon expands. It was initially very effective against me, but I've started going gate-assimilator-gate-core after my cannons (sort of like a very delayed double stalker opening) and it shuts down roach pressure a million times better than gate-gas-core-gate. Starting the second gate before your core does require some slight probe cutting, but I think it's a worthwhile sacrifice. Also, having the double stalkers available means you don't have to make as many cannons. 2 is fine on all maps that don't have a back door.
love this build. do it every time against zerg on LT except I cut gate units and go for 2 warpgates with more cannons at the front. The zerg will do one of the following: 1) Attack your front (good cannon #s and placement + 1-2 sentries should handle this) 2) Go mutas (phoenix > mutas) 3) Fast nydus (bring 2 probes to patrol the perimeter until you've set up a decent pylon network. If you see the nydus, pull 7-8 probes off mining to kill it - more people need to do this). My success rate against zerg diamond with this is like ~80% but that's only on LT. It works ok on metalopolis. Not as good on XC because it's hard to get decent frontal coverage/building placement
I love this build and im holding off roach pressure very easily on some maps by doing what kcdc posted above, was just wondering if some people could send me replays of them doing this build on a map like xel naga, jungle basin and mabe shakuras so i can get a good idea of good cannon placement as it has to be very precise now with the roach range buff.
Did this build in a 1500+ diamond game on ladder, it worked just fine. Since he went for hatch first, he basically could put up no aggression at all, and was content to just go to 3 base, however even though it was 2 base vs 3 base, i found that i could get out adequate gate/colossi army to counter ling roach hydra3 base army. I think with this build its important to get observers out and keep tabs on how many bases he is on, where his army is, how big it is etc.
I think its viable, but on some maps you may not be able to scout a 6 pool in time to make a decision on whether to FE or not. Honestly.. if T and P both need to make a pylon or supply depot before they make attacking units.. i think it should be the same for Z. Just force them to make an overlord before lings, tadaa we have no more super cheesy builds.
On October 21 2010 02:48 kcdc wrote: Re: roach range buff
Zerg players are loving them some early roach pressure vs cannon expands. It was initially very effective against me, but I've started going gate-assimilator-gate-core after my cannons (sort of like a very delayed double stalker opening) and it shuts down roach pressure a million times better than gate-gas-core-gate. Starting the second gate before your core does require some slight probe cutting, but I think it's a worthwhile sacrifice. Also, having the double stalkers available means you don't have to make as many cannons. 2 is fine on all maps that don't have a back door.
although I disagree with 2 cannons being enough with hardcore zerg-pressure (depends how hard he commits of course), this is so very true the first time I saw this was in the games of pippi vs cezanne.....if you save up chrono-boost and get double-stalker first quite quickly is huge; together with cannons it will really scare any very early roach-force off and you can proceed and get more gates/stalkers if you spot early roach-pressure; if not you are still good to get early stargate and do some harassment, second gate before core doesn't slow you down at all considering you have to get a 2nd gate before stargate anyways, unless you are 100% that he won't attack...like if you see something really weird like super-early double expand before pool etc.
I've been playing with this build when I play against Zerg and I have won all my games. Can safely confirm it works on Bronze league. Thanks OP this will be my standard opening.
The good thing is that when they don't see a wall many Zerg players(in my level) cut drone production and try to go in for the kill at 2 bases. With 4-5 Phoenixes you can hunt a bunch of overlords and delay the Zerg so much so that when your Push comes they will die quite easily.
Could this work against Terran? I mean, 15 Nexus with 1 gateway instead of a Forge? I actually tried but he expanded 3 times and steam rolled me with Mass Banshees(My fault, I should have thrown down a stargate instead of more Stalkers)
Ok i really want to make this work now. Every time I do it I get a response from zerg, here's a sample: 1. Wow thats a fast expand 2. NEVER fast expand against zerg. ( he ended up losing ) 3. Are you a pro? What League? 4. (this guy was a piece of work) Honestly, what did you think would happen? ( as he's annihilating me with mutas ) 5. you can't fast expand against zerg, ever. 6. Just letting you know I just took my 3rd expansion (me) thanks 7. (after I lost) (me) gg (him) not really you suck. 8. Proxy pylon? As i'm dropping cannons/pylons at his natural.
This build is a lot of fun, but it DEFINITELY takes a lot of practice.
Some things that help: 1. Gas/Core up quickly. You will need lots of gas to get the units you need to defend. Cannons can only take you so far. Sentries are pretty key early, you can even defeat roaches with just a lot of zealots/sentries if you use shileld/FF well. 2. Scout - Definitely out an occasional probe or three to scout expansions, see what he's building so you can react accordingly. 3. Cannon his expo. Especially if he takes 2 of them. If you can get this to work at his natural or someplace close to his main, get warpgates immediately, warp in units and keep pressing. 4. Cannon his ramp, send in zealots to reinforce the cannons asap, get warpgates. I've seen pros do this very successfully, might need 2-3 cannons to hold since your zealot is delayed. Either way it will delay his expansion, and force him to make some ground troops to take them out. 5. Plan out ahead of time where you are going to place your initial buildings/cannons on each map. On more open maps you will probably want to use your gateways to help you wall in/protect your natural, and you'll need a few more cannons than normal.
I still do 15 Nex against zerg just about everytime, unless it's Steppes and I cannon wall their base. Mainly you have to switch your cannon sim city, I generally put the cannons at the top of the nexus so they can still hit incoming roaches. Otherwise they will just range kill the pylons at the top and this still protects your mineral line from zerglings. While still cannoning both bases my main rush is to chrono out one void before doing other tech or working on phoenix's. That pretty much ends roach/ling pushes for the early game.
Disclaimer: I have not had many ppl go banelings against this, they either double expo or over commit on running me over with zerglings/roaches.
Excellent post. You have a great build that would give me trouble. I watched your last three replays to see how it deals with roaches, and it does seem pretty strong.
However, there is still a window of vulnerability to a strong early roach push. None of the replays demonstrated that. I'm talking about a past 5-7 roach push before expanding. Your base is pretty vulnerable from the 4-5:30 point because you can't even build stalkers yet and are completely reliant on cannons. I would probably get confused if I saw your build in game because it's new to me, but if I understood what you were doing I would focus the cannons down unlike some of the players you were against.
Once you get past that window you're pretty safe. In fact, it probably has an enormous advantage over slower expanding builds. Interesting that you suggest you're most vulnerable to pre-warpgate attacks. I guess if the Zerg has two bases and cuts drone production at about 30-35, they could have a really strong push. It seems like hydras are also going to be difficult to deal with because their range will help a great deal against your wall in.
replay of a game using a good wall-in and a 16 gateway after 16 nexus against 14 hatch. Forge isn't needed as the zealot will pop out in time to block against the maximum of 8 lings he will be sending early (3 from main 1 from his natural). The replay has 14 hatch into 16 pool but it's safe vs 14 hatch 14 pool as well really. By having a earlier gateway you can also have a much earlier cybercore and thus stalkers/sentries out before he can use roaches. As long as you wall properly and make the right units in time it's perfectly safe vs 14 hatch. Offcourse it requires a wall-in that be defended with 1 zealot vs 8 lings for a short while which so far is easy to do on LT, metalopolis (only east spawn is a bit harder), shakuras and jungle basin. On other maps it's much harder as your pylon(s) will be exposed a lot more.
I know the replay itself isn't good but it's merely to show the opening which if you notice the timings is perfectly safe.
The Zerg did a 14-Hatch 16 pool 15 Gas build so an earlier pool might have given you some trouble. I think, especially on LT, that a cannon on the highground is key to hold off ling/ bling agression. Would've made your game a lot easier too
Well your first zealot will always be out before his 8 lings reach your natural. Then your 2nd zealot will be done about 15 secs after (you have saved up chronoboost anyway so you can CB non-stop). As your 2nd zealot pops your cyber will finish and you can make zealot + sentry in case of (bane)ling pressure and otherwise you go stalkers. 14 hatch 14 pool really is no problem with this (they will hurt themselves more then they possibly will you) if you defend it well. After the initial defense i was screwing up in this game as i forgot to mine gas for a bit resulting in getting sentries a lot later then i should have. If you just get 1 sentry straight after the cyber is done you won't have any problems with ling pressure really. Imo such a build is far superior then a cannon defense as cannon defense is pretty damn weak against a zerg who just pokes with 4 to 6 lings and then drones MASSIVELY on 3 base. Forge and cannons delay your tech by some time and can't be used for aggresion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this build loses to a 7-10 pool. You won't hold 7 pools scouted on last position and even if you survive a 9 pool by completely walling your ramp, you would be too far behind, especially on a map like blistering sands with rocks where you also have to make atleast one cannon to survive. I'd like to hear some better protoss players thoughts about this
On October 22 2010 16:52 Mareng wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this build loses to a 7-10 pool. You won't hold 7 pools scouted on last position and even if you survive a 9 pool by completely walling your ramp, you would be too far behind, especially on a map like blistering sands with rocks where you also have to make atleast one cannon to survive. I'd like to hear some better protoss players thoughts about this
If it was forge first pylon near main nexus, then no amount of lings will beat that, but gate first FE's are always gonna be vulnerable to lings.
On October 22 2010 16:52 Mareng wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this build loses to a 7-10 pool. You won't hold 7 pools scouted on last position and even if you survive a 9 pool by completely walling your ramp, you would be too far behind, especially on a map like blistering sands with rocks where you also have to make atleast one cannon to survive. I'd like to hear some better protoss players thoughts about this
The purpose of building the first pylon in your main (either near nexus or choke) not at your nat is because if you 9pylon and send that probe to scout, you will always scout them before you actually put down your 15 nexus, even if you scouted last position.
This allows you to abort the 15 nexus build and wall off either your ramp or mineral line with an immediate forge followed by a cannon (or two). By the time lings get to your base your cannon(s) should either be up or almost up. You'll have to fight back with probes, but they do decently well against small ling numbers and will easily delay for the cannon to come up. Against a 7-10 pool on a small map, you'll have scouted them pretty early so you should have cannons up or almost up by the time lings get to your base anyways.
TLDR: Basically you obviously don't continue going 15 nexus if you scout a 7-10 pool (which you should scout in time if you scout on 9) and build a forge + cannons.
its just too risky... if the zerg 7 pools, or 6-pool- or even 9-pools, you will lose. even a 10-pool wont be easy to hold of with this nexus first build.
i prefer the save variation with pylong+forge first, then a cannons, then the nexus..
On October 22 2010 17:59 Gr4ndmasterSexy wrote: its just too risky... if the zerg 7 pools, or 6-pool- or even 9-pools, you will lose. even a 10-pool wont be easy to hold of with this nexus first build.
it's so annoying that ppl can't stop posting the same useless stuff again...and again...and again
OF COURSE you don't get nexus first vs 7 pool, it was written countless times that the timing of 15 nexus plays out exactly so that you scout the zerg even on 4-player maps (last spot) before you actually throw down the nexus; early pools require a totally different response anyways, nobody will throw down a nexus in case of a <10 pool; now at 15 you'll have saved up enough ressources to drop a gateway and a forge (against 6-pool) or 2 gateways (8-9 pool) and be fine because zerg pretty much has to do some damage or be very far behind
I mean, in the kcdc-thread we didn't discuss how to one gate FE vs terran who went double proxy rax either did we?
On October 22 2010 17:59 Gr4ndmasterSexy wrote: its just too risky... if the zerg 7 pools, or 6-pool- or even 9-pools, you will lose. even a 10-pool wont be easy to hold of with this nexus first build.
it's so annoying that ppl can't stop posting the same useless stuff again...and again...and again
OF COURSE you don't get nexus first vs 7 pool, it was written countless times that the timing of 15 nexus plays out exactly so that you scout the zerg even on 4-player maps (last spot) before you actually throw down the nexus; early pools require a totally different response anyways, nobody will throw down a nexus in case of a <10 pool; now at 15 you'll have saved up enough ressources to drop a gateway and a forge (against 6-pool) or 2 gateways (8-9 pool) and be fine because zerg pretty much has to do some damage or be very far behind
I mean, in the kcdc-thread we didn't discuss how to one gate FE vs terran who went double proxy rax either did we?
I know that if I scout the earlier pools I'm not supposed to put the Nexus down, but instead wall off my ramp. I did that yesterday vs a friend, I scouted his 9 pool and put a forge and a gateway on my ramp and held off the lings. It was on blistering sands, so I also had to cannon by the rocks and that put me far behind him and I had no chance 5 min later.. But maybe I would have been much better off with 2 gateways immediately placed if I scout a 9 pool, instead of 1 forge 1 gate as I now did?
Is the correct response to 6-7 pool to put 1gate/1forge, and 2gates vs 8-9 pool, as you wrote? I'm only ~1000 pts platinum so I don't really know how to deal with these early pools anyway, no matter what build I intended from the beginning. Sorry if I was a little unclear with my criticism vs the 15 Nexus. The reason for my post was because I scouted a 9pool, abandoned my build, held off the rush and still lost due to falling behind.
On October 22 2010 18:24 Mareng wrote: Is the correct response to 6-7 pool to put 1gate/1forge, and 2gates vs 8-9 pool, as you wrote? I'm only ~1000 pts platinum so I don't really know how to deal with these early pools anyway, no matter what build I intended from the beginning. Sorry if I was a little unclear with my criticism vs the 15 Nexus. The reason for my post was because I scouted a 9pool, abandoned my build, held off the rush and still lost due to falling behind.
well, tbh there is no "correct" response because it depends entirely on the way the zerg proceeds - in theory zerg could put down an 8-pool just to screw with your head and produce just drones lol....know what I mean?
I prefer 2 gate vs 8 pool because after I get my core down I chrono 2 stalkers out and put pressure on the zerg who - at this point - normally tries to drone up; first 2 zealots to fend off early ling shenanigans of course (if you think the zealots will be a tad too late....just sim-city with a pylon and cancel it on the last second; no reason why not to)
if zerg goes for early pool, you fend it off without pulling (too many) probes AND have pretty much constantly produced probes then there's no way on god's green earth you can be behind at this point, I'd need a rep to see what the hell went wrong there
On October 22 2010 18:24 Mareng wrote: Is the correct response to 6-7 pool to put 1gate/1forge, and 2gates vs 8-9 pool, as you wrote? I'm only ~1000 pts platinum so I don't really know how to deal with these early pools anyway, no matter what build I intended from the beginning. Sorry if I was a little unclear with my criticism vs the 15 Nexus. The reason for my post was because I scouted a 9pool, abandoned my build, held off the rush and still lost due to falling behind.
well, tbh there is no "correct" response because it depends entirely on the way the zerg proceeds - in theory zerg could put down an 8-pool just to screw with your head and produce just drones lol....know what I mean?
I prefer 2 gate vs 8 pool because after I get my core down I chrono 2 stalkers out and put pressure on the zerg who - at this point - normally tries to drone up; first 2 zealots to fend off early ling shenanigans of course (if you think the zealots will be a tad too late....just sim-city with a pylon and cancel it on the last second; no reason why not to)
if zerg goes for early pool, you fend it off without pulling (too many) probes AND have pretty much constantly produced probes then there's no way on god's green earth you can be behind at this point, I'd need a rep to see what the hell went wrong there
Thanks for your answer! Hopefully I'll manage to survive the 9pool now if I should face it on the ladder. We also tried a 7pool allin on LT, where I scouted him on the last position and he attacked with lings and 2 drones and I couldn't hold it.. But maybe it's me who needs practicing. How can I hold a 7pool when I'm on 15 food and have only a pylon on your ramp?
The proper defense against a 6 to 10 pool is just sealing off your ramp with 2 gates and pylon or gateway+forge+pylon. If you scout in time it in time i'd advise double gate as that leaves you in better position if they start to drone, but sometimes you need forge + gateway as that is a little easier for actually deflecting the rush. I've posted pictures a few pages before of a easy wall in with forge + gateway + pylon as long as you place the pylon at the ramp. Most maps you can easily 'double' wall as well, ie. put a extra gateway behind the pylon so that even if they break the pylon they are still walled off. That can buy you enough time for some zealots or a cannon and lets you mine longer with your probes. Just make sure to get probes to fight along with your zealots/cannon at exactly the time you wall breaks.
Only if you scout them last on a 4 player map can you have some trouble vs 6 pool really. On DQ that's a different case but i'd never advise a 16 nexus on that map. On LT and metalopolis you can usually find them first or 2nd as you can generally assume they are not next to you if you don't see their scouting overlord, just scout the closest position first then go cross if you didnt get ovie scouted otherwise move down to where the ovie came from. As long as you see the pool reasonably on time it isn't too hard to fend off, if you don't scout the zerg before you are on 14 pop you can always just switch to a regular 14 gate which is automatically safe vs 6 pools with proper walling really.
idk, if that helps, but. I tried this build for the last few games vs Z and hell, did it work well, but anyway
I had one opponent who tried to 6 pool me and I scouted it around 15 Food but with pylon at my main Nexus (not the ramp) and just went forge and then threw down 2 cannons at the mineral line, then normally got gateway/cyber and CBed out probes as I would always do and won no problem. His first 6 lings arrived around the time the first cannon was almost done, and they didn't do much damage, as once the cannon finished, my probes plus cannon killed any lings who tried to attack the workerline quite easily.
With a little bit of probemicro for saving dying probes there really werent too many losses, maybe 2 probes or so, I think.
again, I don't know if my opponent just sucked or was confused as to what he should do, so I can't say if this helps vs other zerg players (1k diamond here btw, just for refference)
On the other hand, if a zerg goes 6 pool, then he's already soooo much behind on drones, he won't be able to catch up ecenomically anyway, so I guess, if the lings don't do much damage you sorta autowin, by just continue going your normal build off of one base instead of 2, at least until you can fend off the pressure with your army instead of cannons, I guess
yeah, 15 nexus from sangho in GSL vs PhoenixWerra! how awsome is that
EDIT and phoenixes from 2 stargates, wow I love this player already; he does exactly what I've been doing lately...just....better
EDIT#2 ok, anybody still not convinced that nexus first into double stargate works on proper maps HAS to see the vod of sangho vs phoenixwerra; terrible, terrible roflpwn
On October 22 2010 18:59 Markwerf wrote: Only if you scout them last on a 4 player map can you have some trouble vs 6 pool really. On DQ that's a different case but i'd never advise a 16 nexus on that map.
yeah, DQ is a strange map... I wouldn't 15/16 nexus on close-positions either obviously; especially metalopolis close positions are a definite nono, closest rush-positions of all maps here
today on gsl babybyebye made this strat on scrap on round 1.zerg respond with 3 hatch.toss gone for double stargate harrassed with 6 phonex and mass stalker imo than gg.
second game on sakura.doing the same ... this time zerg went one base baneling took 8 probe.then exp and mass drones teching to mutas.toss standart 2 stargate and GG.
The map pool is incredibly favored for nexus first atm. -scrap station -lost temple -shakuras plateau (easiest nexus first ever) -jungle basin -blistering sands (can be tricky)
On October 22 2010 19:45 johngalt90 wrote: time for liquipedia maybe? protoss make front page of tl again i think so... braintoss ftw...
I think this thread has the same potential as the kcdc-FE-thread.....now, after all the haters FINALLY saw that this build indeed works (on the proper maps) on the very high level, I think MUCH more will actually try it out instead of just theory-crafting around it
I'm hoping for much more reps/discussion about the different responses from zerg on this; especially in the light of the new patch
On October 22 2010 19:30 ssregitoss wrote: second game on sakura.doing the same ...
yeah; now we see what I have been talking about earlier - muta/corruptor can NOT stop phoenix-harass!
that is right now we see this strat on a progamer hand.but he goes double stargate.and we see how phonex own mutas+corruptor.cause they are faster than mutas and corr.i still find it is very risky for 2 stargate.and babybyebye goes really fast triple gas.
On October 22 2010 20:27 McFoo wrote: The trick is to scout the 15 nexus and then go 6 pool. Trust me, 6 pool counters 15 nexus so hard.
if you go 6 pool you cant scout.are you crazy. heh. believe this strat stops 6 pool with 9.probe scout.cause you go forge before nexus and no expo.with one cannon you macro well with one base vs 6 pool zerg.
On October 22 2010 19:02 SCvanTango wrote: idk, if that helps, but. I tried this build for the last few games vs Z and hell, did it work well, but anyway
I had one opponent who tried to 6 pool me and I scouted it around 15 Food but with pylon at my main Nexus (not the ramp) and just went forge and then threw down 2 cannons at the mineral line, then normally got gateway/cyber and CBed out probes as I would always do and won no problem. His first 6 lings arrived around the time the first cannon was almost done, and they didn't do much damage, as once the cannon finished, my probes plus cannon killed any lings who tried to attack the workerline quite easily.
With a little bit of probemicro for saving dying probes there really werent too many losses, maybe 2 probes or so, I think.
again, I don't know if my opponent just sucked or was confused as to what he should do, so I can't say if this helps vs other zerg players (1k diamond here btw, just for refference)
On the other hand, if a zerg goes 6 pool, then he's already soooo much behind on drones, he won't be able to catch up ecenomically anyway, so I guess, if the lings don't do much damage you sorta autowin, by just continue going your normal build off of one base instead of 2, at least until you can fend off the pressure with your army instead of cannons, I guess
So I should always build the first pylon close to my nexus to survive 6-7 pools?
Sangho uses 16 nexus two games in a row in the GSL.
Wins both games handily.
I've been mixing this strat in with my forge FE.
I typically go phoenix into chargelot => dt => ht/dt/zealot/archon and I really enjoyed watching Sangho's blind double stargates.
The ability to get out so many phoenix so fast allows him to destroy queens and overlords so efficiently
The double stargate looks very promising and safe overall. Again, thanks for this build. I"ll post some replays when I find which transitions I find most successful from the 15/16 nexus.
On October 22 2010 21:32 Ummbeefy wrote: The double stargate looks very promising and safe overall. Again, thanks for this build. I"ll post some replays when I find which transitions I find most successful from the 15/16 nexus.
the best thing of this build is, that it's entirely up to you what you make out of it - you are literally "incontrol" now; if you screw up and do only minor damage..you die and rightly so; if you use your phoenixes very effectively you can kill huge numbers of overlords, drones and probably queens; if you manage to do that you can transition into basicly everything on at least an even footing; since the phoenixes also provide perfect scouting intel, you should know exactly what to do
what I mean is, this is a very "mentally satisfying" build to practice...because each and everytime you lose, you will already in the game realize "hell, now I screwed this and that up"; quite the opposite of playing vs terran MMM where you get pwned and then go "hmm...and what exactly should I have done against this now?" - way more motivating if you always know that there are so many holes in your game left to improve
On October 22 2010 19:02 SCvanTango wrote: idk, if that helps, but. I tried this build for the last few games vs Z and hell, did it work well, but anyway
I had one opponent who tried to 6 pool me and I scouted it around 15 Food but with pylon at my main Nexus (not the ramp) and just went forge and then threw down 2 cannons at the mineral line, then normally got gateway/cyber and CBed out probes as I would always do and won no problem. His first 6 lings arrived around the time the first cannon was almost done, and they didn't do much damage, as once the cannon finished, my probes plus cannon killed any lings who tried to attack the workerline quite easily.
With a little bit of probemicro for saving dying probes there really werent too many losses, maybe 2 probes or so, I think.
again, I don't know if my opponent just sucked or was confused as to what he should do, so I can't say if this helps vs other zerg players (1k diamond here btw, just for refference)
On the other hand, if a zerg goes 6 pool, then he's already soooo much behind on drones, he won't be able to catch up ecenomically anyway, so I guess, if the lings don't do much damage you sorta autowin, by just continue going your normal build off of one base instead of 2, at least until you can fend off the pressure with your army instead of cannons, I guess
So I should always build the first pylon close to my nexus to survive 6-7 pools?
It really depends on the map. With maps like Blistering where there are backdoors, it's probably safer to build your pylon near your nexus as you can just wall your mineral line. On maps without backdoors and more defensible ramps you can pylon at your ramp and upon scouting the 6-10 pool just throw down buildings at your ramp to block it off.
I liked this strat so much it compelled me to make a TL account so that I could join in the fray.
I used to use this all the time prior to the recent patch to great effect, often in conjunction with cannoning the zerg ramp. The roach range increase made me thing all was lost for a while. However, after some extensive testing with a Z buddy we've found that it definitely holds up against a roach all-in against it on a map where you can wall off a choke at. We worked it as a straight up timing exercise against a 14 pool into roach and concluded that about three cannons and two gates chrono boosting stalkers is sufficient to hold the choke.
My question is if anyone knows if this is viable against a one base roach all-in without a wall off. I've won with it against poor opponents but suspect that it is not safe. I intend to test it on my own of course, but would hate to repeat someone else works.
The thing I like about this is that many zerg players don't know how to respond, so they end up going heavy muta. I've responded by making this build focus on getting out archons. They move fast and counter muta very well due to splash. (It's a bit harder if they magic box, but micro can help a lot) One problem I've noticed is that I get very high on minerals though.
After further testing, I think it can be safe to still go phoenix in this patch. You just have to get more scouting done to know whether roach pressure is coming.
i had a LOT LOT LOT of excess minerals, because i haven't 1v1'd for a while and first time having an economy this gigantic. was still able to pull through.
i am 1200 plat, opponent 1200 diamond
i was in vent with him, and i think when he saw the nexus it threw him off a little bit.
On October 23 2010 10:18 Platypus84 wrote: I liked this strat so much it compelled me to make a TL account so that I could join in the fray.
I used to use this all the time prior to the recent patch to great effect, often in conjunction with cannoning the zerg ramp. The roach range increase made me thing all was lost for a while. However, after some extensive testing with a Z buddy we've found that it definitely holds up against a roach all-in against it on a map where you can wall off a choke at. We worked it as a straight up timing exercise against a 14 pool into roach and concluded that about three cannons and two gates chrono boosting stalkers is sufficient to hold the choke.
My question is if anyone knows if this is viable against a one base roach all-in without a wall off. I've won with it against poor opponents but suspect that it is not safe. I intend to test it on my own of course, but would hate to repeat someone else works.
Hello, could you maybe post some of the replays of your training games, that would be really really helpful for the timings
Does anyone have reps at the upper diamond level of people holding to one base roach? I've just been doing that against this and it's been working out well so far. I deny scouting with my lings and if toss happens to scout me I attack with about 8 roaches and rally more and I'm always able to break toss because he doesn't have enough stuff out.
Also let's pretend it's either prepatch or I don't want to one base allin. What beats this as zerg? Double expo? It seems like every toss punishes me for this with an earlish push at some point and I can't get enough units out without killing my econ.
Is there any kind of roach ling attack off two base that works that us mere mortals can do? I saw sen do this on his stream before and I had no f'ing idea how he knew he could break toss on xel naga and it was pretty close, he had amazing control and timing with the attack, and if it didn't work he was screwed. How about a 2 base hydra timing attack?
i had a LOT LOT LOT of excess minerals, because i haven't 1v1'd for a while and first time having an economy this gigantic. was still able to pull through.
i am 1200 plat, opponent 1200 diamond
i was in vent with him, and i think when he saw the nexus it threw him off a little bit.
This was again vs another diamond opponent, but he was around 700. It was also a 20 nexus, still very early though!
And I found out how to spend all those excess minerals!
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
On October 23 2010 15:30 grimAuxiliatrix wrote: The thing I like about this is that many zerg players don't know how to respond, so they end up going heavy muta. I've responded by making this build focus on getting out archons. They move fast and counter muta very well due to splash. (It's a bit harder if they magic box, but micro can help a lot) One problem I've noticed is that I get very high on minerals though.
If you're high on minerals against mutas pump out more cannons, then you can leave your base to counter sooner, and use cannons to hold another expansion if spines up and your counter can't kill him.
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
They're wrong.
Or...you're definitely wrong.
forge + cannon - 85 seconds
pool + zerglings - 89 seconds
This means, if you spot the pool building 5 seconds after it's built, your cannons will be behind.
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
They're wrong.
Or...you're definitely wrong.
forge + cannon - 85 seconds
pool + zerglings - 89 seconds
This means, if you spot the pool building 5 seconds after it's built, your cannons will be behind.
Zerglings still have to cross the map.
Anyway, in BW, a 5pool would deliver zerglings before the Protoss could get cannons up, but Protoss would start a cannon in the mineral line and defend w/probes until it completed --> not a problem.
Zerglings are weaker than in BW, and cannons are stronger...
Couple 15 nex replays from today/yesterday, would welcome any critique's on it. Both are vs diamond players, the first one beats me with a one base all-in roach push and the other one I win vs a 1.2k diamond.
On October 25 2010 00:29 SethDrone wrote: Couple 15 nex replays from today/yesterday, would welcome any critique's on it. Both are vs diamond players, the first one beats me with a one base all-in roach push and the other one I win vs a 1.2k diamond.
I think the link to the second one is broken but I found it on gamereplays.
The first one I was surprised how quickly it fell to roaches. Even at the 7 minute mark you really had nothing but cannons which is about when you first start seeing early pushes.
The second one the zerg slipped terribly and only had like 12 drones mining in his main. Nevertheless the phoenix play was impressive.
@sethdrone In your lose on LT, I would highly recommend a different building/cannon placement. Gateway/forge/nexus/Gatweay (or cyber) should form a wall such that there is only one way in and the cannons can hit them the entire time they are trying to funnel through. That way those 2 cannons in your main can be down at the choke point where they will do more good. A cannon on that high ground ledge overlooking the nat is great as well.
Also I think going for stargate first is not ideal before you get a couple stalkers/sentries out unless you scout him going for early lair tech ( mutas ).
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
They're wrong.
Or...you're definitely wrong.
forge + cannon - 85 seconds
pool + zerglings - 89 seconds
This means, if you spot the pool building 5 seconds after it's built, your cannons will be behind.
Zerglings still have to cross the map.
Anyway, in BW, a 5pool would deliver zerglings before the Protoss could get cannons up, but Protoss would start a cannon in the mineral line and defend w/probes until it completed --> not a problem.
Zerglings are weaker than in BW, and cannons are stronger...
Not only that, but you should've been constantly pumping chrono'd probes. You should have enough probes to fight off the initial 4-6 lings from the Zerg with just probes quite easily or at least delay long enough to get your first cannon up. As long as you don't go below 6-7 probes by the end of the rush you will be in the lead x]
On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote: Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
They're wrong.
Or...you're definitely wrong.
forge + cannon - 85 seconds
pool + zerglings - 89 seconds
This means, if you spot the pool building 5 seconds after it's built, your cannons will be behind.
Zerglings still have to cross the map.
Anyway, in BW, a 5pool would deliver zerglings before the Protoss could get cannons up, but Protoss would start a cannon in the mineral line and defend w/probes until it completed --> not a problem.
Zerglings are weaker than in BW, and cannons are stronger...
Not only that, but you should've been constantly pumping chrono'd probes. You should have enough probes to fight off the initial 4-6 lings from the Zerg with just probes quite easily or at least delay long enough to get your first cannon up. As long as you don't go below 6-7 probes by the end of the rush you will be in the lead x]
I got early pooled on this build yesterday on scrap station, as soon as I scouted it (scouted normally on 9) I dropped a forge and I think my cannon was just barely starting when the lings showed up. I managed to keep the lings busy with probes, etc and just kept dropping pylons, cannons and making probes as necessary. Once I had 2 fully operational cannons in my min line I just transitioned into 4gate and crushed them.
I been using this build with great success lately. What I do is to not skim on the cannon and pump quick stalker, sacrificing tech for a bit.
In fact, I like to poke at zerg by having a mini-wrap gate rush at the time when my wrap gate is finished and I have around 4-6 gates. It's usually enough to kill zerg's expansion.
How do you play against heavy powering into 2 base roach (or hydra,) with this build, since you get such a late gas which delays your upgrades/immortals/sentries/colossi, etc.
I wonder how he defends against a 2 base hydra push though. Or 3 bases into hydras. He basically 15 nexuses and gets 2 stargates. Pumps out 6 phoenixes and starts to harass while getting an additional 3 gateways.
I hope we see more of this build. It's really cool and we've gotten to see it versus two different zerg builds so far.
I wonder how he defends against a 2 base hydra push though. Or 3 bases into hydras. He basically 15 nexuses and gets 2 stargates. Pumps out 6 phoenixes and starts to harass while getting an additional 3 gateways.
I hope we see more of this build. It's really cool and we've gotten to see it versus two different zerg builds so far.
Yeah, i think this was on scrap and cross shakuras, I think he was banking on the zerg not being aggressive with hydras/creep highway.
I got some additional games with this strat against 1700-1800 zergs:
These are 3 games where I scout a 14 hatch so I decide to skip the forge. This makes the build a bit faster and gives you faster stalkers, faster tech etc. Against 14 hatch it's perfectly safe. If I don't see roaches (or was just to crap to notice them) i follow up with a stargate for phoenix to scout and harass (though a voidray can at times be useful). After that proceed with phoenix stalker vs mutaling or switch to stalker immortal colossi vs hydra/roach. One game I lose because of not adapting to muta's properly later on (i was stupid to get colossi and lacked the gas for enough stalkers because of it).
In these games I scout a 14 pool or at least a lack of a 14 hatch and thus go with a forge and 1 cannon. More is rarely neccesary and by going 2 gateways after the forge you can pump out stalkers & sentries fast enough to stop baneling or roachling pushes etc. Same as other stuff, follow up with stargate or robo and counter appropiately.
This thread deserved a bump imo and this strat is very strong at maps that favor it (easy natural, can protect both natural and main with 1 cannon). As long as you wall properly and start off with stalker/sentry you can defend any push and stalker/sentry are good no matter what your opponent makes.
Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
sort of takes away from the whole greedy build concept. If you 6 scout your WHOLE 15 nexus build order is slowed down meaning if they DONT 6 pool your entire build is slower because you pulled the early probe.
Idra vs Ddoro 15 nexus works wonders, beat Idra his own (macro) game ... I've been using this from time to time lately, and I find it defendable, in worst case scenario you have to pull some probes (5-10) but you won't loose them and still will be ahead in economy
On Steppes/TL/Metal, how do you defend cheese if you wall your natural? I'm not a great player (1300 diamond), and 6 pool is pretty common, especially on LT - almost every game against Z. Am I correct in understanding that I just abandon the 15-nexus in favor of a 12 forge if my pylon-builder-scout sees a 6 pool? There's not enough time to scout all of the bases before I have to decide whether I need to 12-forge or 15-nexus.
On November 07 2010 02:40 Musketeer wrote: On Steppes/TL/Metal, how do you defend cheese if you wall your natural? I'm not a great player (1300 diamond), and 6 pool is pretty common, especially on LT - almost every game against Z. Am I correct in understanding that I just abandon the 15-nexus in favor of a 12 forge if my pylon-builder-scout sees a 6 pool? There's not enough time to scout all of the bases before I have to decide whether I need to 12-forge or 15-nexus.
probably can't 12-forge, it'll probably turn out to be 14-15 forge which should be enough to defend against lings. Oh yeah, first pylon goes above your ramp in case of a 6 pool. Also send your 10th/11th probe diagonally to the edge of your base for LT/metal to check cross position overlord
Just played a decent set of games with a zerg player.
Tried out 15 nexus and I like it a bunch. Just got a question or two?
If I delay the gas for quite a while, cannon up as needed, then triple gas and get my way to a 6 gate +1 weapons push, what is the best zerg response? Still the double expand? I wouldn't be able to shut down said third on almost every map? I won these games with room for a lot of improvement and curious what I need to worry about if I go 15 nexus into 6 gate with +1 weapons.
Well i posted this in a different thread, but i don't feel like re righting it but here are some tips? i guess for pvz fe builds.
I never expand on 15 though, 16 fore me. Mainly cause i have a final crono that can boost 15 and 16 out (and im scouting at 9, which means nex at 15 isn't perfect timing)
Below is some information on how to deal with early pressure from speed lings and banelings
Proper building placement can go a long way. I do nexus/forge fist half my games on ladder even on maps that are not nice for fe builds.
Just like in bw you have to be constantly scouting, as long as he doesn't have speed you should be able to get into his base to see tech, if not play it safe throw up another cannon or two.
If you see early speedlings just wall your ramp. (lower ground) He tries to run by they die, and lings suck vs cannons so they will all die easy. You can kill pylon latter to move out.
Vs banelings make sure to not have any exposed pylons (you should also be able to have a zealot out to help tank) Throwing up extra buildings to help block is great.
ALways remember to scout your back area for nydus, be sure to see if he is going 1 base lair, you should be able to pull probes on time to kill nydus if you scout it asap, and you usually can have a zealot out as well.
Lastly just remember, you defend this and your way a head economically.
If its a early pool just pylon his ramp to delay lings and you can still get a forge cannon in your nat easy. If not, pull all probes (maybe leave a few mining) Goal is to delay lings till cannon is up, try not to engage if you don't have to.
If anyone wants replays of fe builds on almost any of the ladder maps let me know(im 1800 playing 2k+ zergs)
I'm looking into starting with a Forge FE against Zerg. Played with it twice last night and did extremely well on Jungle Basin, which is an ideal map for this type of thing. The thing is that right away I'm highly vulnerable to run-bys, and I know that's what the cannon and forge is there to prevent.
Where I'd highly recommend doing a 15 nexus is in a 2v2 or 3v3 matchup. Early rushes will likely ruin it, but at least in this case you have your allies for defense. Once your expo is up you'll be an economic powerhouse for the whole game. Just to see I tried it a couple of times in my standard warm-up / BO testing arena - Cooperative Multiplayer. Twice I was able to get massive mid-game armies at around 120 food by 14mins, and be at 200 food by 18 minutes. It's astonishing. I could not make pylons faster if I tried I was producing units so fast.
If I was to 15 nexus- and the Zerg double expos what should be the proper response of the Protoss player? Cronoboosting a couple of void to kill his 3rd or going for 3rd also? Iv been playing around with this build it seems that if the Zerg stays on 2 base, the build kills him very easily but if he takes the 3rd the Protoss is behind. If this question is not clear I apologize for my poor English.. Thank you in advance for replying!
On November 20 2010 03:41 StorrZerg wrote: Well i posted this in a different thread, but i don't feel like re righting it but here are some tips? i guess for pvz fe builds.
I never expand on 15 though, 16 fore me. Mainly cause i have a final crono that can boost 15 and 16 out (and im scouting at 9, which means nex at 15 isn't perfect timing)
Below is some information on how to deal with early pressure from speed lings and banelings
Proper building placement can go a long way. I do nexus/forge fist half my games on ladder even on maps that are not nice for fe builds.
Just like in bw you have to be constantly scouting, as long as he doesn't have speed you should be able to get into his base to see tech, if not play it safe throw up another cannon or two.
If you see early speedlings just wall your ramp. (lower ground) He tries to run by they die, and lings suck vs cannons so they will all die easy. You can kill pylon latter to move out.
Vs banelings make sure to not have any exposed pylons (you should also be able to have a zealot out to help tank) Throwing up extra buildings to help block is great.
ALways remember to scout your back area for nydus, be sure to see if he is going 1 base lair, you should be able to pull probes on time to kill nydus if you scout it asap, and you usually can have a zealot out as well.
Lastly just remember, you defend this and your way a head economically.
If its a early pool just pylon his ramp to delay lings and you can still get a forge cannon in your nat easy. If not, pull all probes (maybe leave a few mining) Goal is to delay lings till cannon is up, try not to engage if you don't have to.
If anyone wants replays of fe builds on almost any of the ladder maps let me know(im 1800 playing 2k+ zergs)
Any and all replays would be hugely appreciated! Thanks!
On November 27 2010 11:25 DeltaG wrote: Happy holidays!!
Okay so quick question; Map: LT 1v1 PvZ
If I was to 15 nexus- and the Zerg double expos what should be the proper response of the Protoss player? Cronoboosting a couple of void to kill his 3rd or going for 3rd also? Iv been playing around with this build it seems that if the Zerg stays on 2 base, the build kills him very easily but if he takes the 3rd the Protoss is behind. If this question is not clear I apologize for my poor English.. Thank you in advance for replying!
-Cheers.
Depends on where his 3rd is. If it's the gold then it'd be a bit harder to take down with void/phoenix since he can reinforce from his main/natural faster. If it's not then it's very probable you can take it down with air.
If it's the gold personally I like to 6+ gateway push or blink stalker him. You want to prevent them getting a foothold around that watchtower area which will give them access to a lot of potential expos.
Personally I don't like going early air on LT since having a strong ground force to control that watchtower area is so critical on this map. Save the air play for maps like JB and Scrap.
On November 25 2010 10:27 jikuri wrote: Check this game, GSL season 3, GuineaPig goes 18 nex succesfully. Game 2 is Forge FE, but also nice to watch (need to buy ticket tough).
He also shows cool Phoenix harass in combo with void rays. I've never seen this strat used on the GSL before.
So with the 18 Nex does the throw down a gateway? or a forge? I feel like 18 seems like a weird timing with probes and forge timing and such wondering what the benifit is
On November 25 2010 10:27 jikuri wrote: Check this game, GSL season 3, GuineaPig goes 18 nex succesfully. Game 2 is Forge FE, but also nice to watch (need to buy ticket tough).
He also shows cool Phoenix harass in combo with void rays. I've never seen this strat used on the GSL before.
So with the 18 Nex does the throw down a gateway? or a forge? I feel like 18 seems like a weird timing with probes and forge timing and such wondering what the benifit is
19 nexus is what you get if you spend every chrono on your nexus while constantly making probes, then nexus first, so it's the most economical opener you can possibly do. Of course it dies to most things on most maps, but if you scout hatch first on shakuras you can do it for sure.
Is really nice to see an update on this post, personally this is one of the best P strategy threads. Encourages P players to go for nice and deep macro play. I'll love to see some new replays tho : )
This seems like a great strat, and I'm having a nice time with it, but I'm usually having problems with building placement. Can anyone provide some screenshots of typical placements for protecting the natural and ramp on some of suitable maps?
Fuck knowing what this build is good against. Tell me what I can die to 1st because honestly unless you litter your nat with cannons you can't stop a 7rr
On December 31 2010 03:27 OriginalBeast wrote: Fuck knowing what this build is good against. Tell me what I can die to 1st because honestly unless you litter your nat with cannons you can't stop a 7rr
You will most likely scout a 7rr before you toss down nexus.
That's some nice archon usage . I dont know if he would had been better of using broods instead of ultras.But without roach support,u could had just walked to the broods and killed them. People forget how good archons are (altought slightly nerfed compared to the BW version). Your composition seemed more like an giant version of zealot/archon with some stalker support :D.But i dont understand why not build 1-2 cannons per mineral line to push early instead of defending against mutas? That would had allowed u to push earlier.
Also why didn't u scouted for any third expo? Using those 2 early zeals to pressure would had forced him to make lings.And on Meta it's kind of logical for the zerg to take the gold (i dont have any exact data,but taking a regular third expo means he is just equal to u no ?) because it allows him to continue having a economical advantage.
Your replays coupled with others from this thread changed my vision on the matchup. The only maps which u can't do 15 nexus or FFE are ones with backdoor (Shakuras Plateau or Blistering).Yes,u might get a cannon in time,but if he breaks the rocks and runs past ur cannon,u'r dead.
I'm not saying u should 15 Nexus on every map except those 2 above,but doing that puts pressure on the zerg.For the first time we are not the ones obligated to put pressure and catch up economically,the zerg has to do that now. And if u manage to scout and find the zerg's third and get some zeals to attempt to snipe it or force early lings,u'r in top shape.
Maybe we're returning to the Path of Nal_Ra once again ? (altought he used FE mostly,but the ideea is similar)
I alternate between 15Nex and 3gate expand (variations on it) every PvZ. I have to say, the challenge in economic macro that you put to the Zerg with this build is so much fun. There's an unspoken conversation in my head going on about the Zerg's followup:
[Drops 16 Nex vs Hatch First] You want a phat economy? Bring it!
[Scout Roach Warren, no Third] Oh, so you think you can crack my fast expand with roaches and lings, eh? We'll just see about that! My sentries, cannons, and stalkers will take you out!
[Banelings] I hope you know how to use those, son! Because I aint making it easy on you to kill cannons OR probes!
That's some nice archon usage . I dont know if he would had been better of using broods instead of ultras.But without roach support,u could had just walked to the broods and killed them. People forget how good archons are (altought slightly nerfed compared to the BW version). Your composition seemed more like an giant version of zealot/archon with some stalker support :D.But i dont understand why not build 1-2 cannons per mineral line to push early instead of defending against mutas? That would had allowed u to push earlier.
Also why didn't u scouted for any third expo? Using those 2 early zeals to pressure would had forced him to make lings.And on Meta it's kind of logical for the zerg to take the gold (i dont have any exact data,but taking a regular third expo means he is just equal to u no ?) because it allows him to continue having a economical advantage.
Your replays coupled with others from this thread changed my vision on the matchup. The only maps which u can't do 15 nexus or FFE are ones with backdoor (Shakuras Plateau or Blistering).Yes,u might get a cannon in time,but if he breaks the rocks and runs past ur cannon,u'r dead.
I'm not saying u should 15 Nexus on every map except those 2 above,but doing that puts pressure on the zerg.For the first time we are not the ones obligated to put pressure and catch up economically,the zerg has to do that now. And if u manage to scout and find the zerg's third and get some zeals to attempt to snipe it or force early lings,u'r in top shape.
Maybe we're returning to the Path of Nal_Ra once again ? (altought he used FE mostly,but the ideea is similar)
Dude, my post was 3 months ago. Since then, the archon build, as well as my blink stalker build, stopped working due to the range buff on the roach and increased viability of infestors. Nowadays I use a mass void ray style to follow up an early nexus.
That's some nice archon usage . I dont know if he would had been better of using broods instead of ultras.But without roach support,u could had just walked to the broods and killed them. People forget how good archons are (altought slightly nerfed compared to the BW version). Your composition seemed more like an giant version of zealot/archon with some stalker support :D.But i dont understand why not build 1-2 cannons per mineral line to push early instead of defending against mutas? That would had allowed u to push earlier.
Also why didn't u scouted for any third expo? Using those 2 early zeals to pressure would had forced him to make lings.And on Meta it's kind of logical for the zerg to take the gold (i dont have any exact data,but taking a regular third expo means he is just equal to u no ?) because it allows him to continue having a economical advantage.
Your replays coupled with others from this thread changed my vision on the matchup. The only maps which u can't do 15 nexus or FFE are ones with backdoor (Shakuras Plateau or Blistering).Yes,u might get a cannon in time,but if he breaks the rocks and runs past ur cannon,u'r dead.
I'm not saying u should 15 Nexus on every map except those 2 above,but doing that puts pressure on the zerg.For the first time we are not the ones obligated to put pressure and catch up economically,the zerg has to do that now. And if u manage to scout and find the zerg's third and get some zeals to attempt to snipe it or force early lings,u'r in top shape.
Maybe we're returning to the Path of Nal_Ra once again ? (altought he used FE mostly,but the ideea is similar)
Dude, my post was 3 months ago. Since then, the archon build, as well as my blink stalker build, stopped working due to the range buff on the roach and increased viability of infestors. Nowadays I use a mass void ray style to follow up an early nexus.
Aren't i the late guy to the party :<.I knew it was a diferent patch since the game exited to load an older version. Also the mass void style might change also after the new patch with the removal off Flux Vanes.
I have started trying to practice this build and it seems like it has lots of potential. I am only practicing against the v hard comp (i know its not the best, but just wanna get a feel for the build order and macro aspects as well) and have noticed a couple of things in my play. I played on Xel Naga, and since the comp went 14 pool (they always do but i 'mock' scouted anyways )
1) Scouting at the right time is hard without stalkers. What times should I send my probe into their base to scout? I always go 9 scout, and circle around the base for awhile until about 13/14 supply to see if they go pool or hatch first....but after that, from my perspective when should I scout again to see their response? E,g, should I scout when i get to say 20 supply?? 2) Where do you hide your 9 probe scout so he can scout for you later?? 3) The computer did a roach 1base all in and i build 3 cannons, against their 7ish roaches that was constantly reinforced...they were able to snipe each cannon one by one (its wide spacing since its xelnaga) while i was waiting for my first 2 stalkers to come out. How do you hold this off? They managed to kill all 3 cannons JUST as my 2 stalkers came out. But I feel a real opponent would have walked his roaches around the back of the natural and kill my probes etc.
bankai: I'm trying to learn this build as well. The only way to hold off a roach bust is to simply spam cannons. At first it sounds like a stupid overreaction (and you will feel a bit silly doing it) but if he has seven roaches you're gonna need five to seven cannons. The hardest part is to make just enough cannons so that he can't kill you. That's something you have learn by just trying out how many you need. It might be six. It might be ten. I'm still not sure. It's so situational but atm I get arround eight of them if I scout he's going for a roach bust.
On January 12 2011 08:29 Tekakan wrote: bankai: I'm trying to learn this build as well. The only way to hold off a roach bust is to simply spam cannons. At first it sounds like a stupid overreaction (and you will feel a bit silly doing it) but if he has seven roaches you're gonna need five to seven cannons. The hardest part is to make just enough cannons so that he can't kill you. That's something you have learn by just trying out how many you need. It might be six. It might be ten. I'm still not sure. It's so situational but atm I get arround eight of them if I scout he's going for a roach bust.
You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote: You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote: You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
Depends on map, of course. Try it on Lost temple or Shakuras Plateau.
On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote: You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
to be honest i think cannons are a great thing to get early if your going 15 nexus but its probably smart to afterwards wall your ramp with pylons / forge to prevent zergling runby as you go on and keep a probe outside the wall to build cannons while the nexus finishes and simply go forge after nexus and make your gateways late and spam a bunch of cannons if you scout your enemy did a worker cutting aggressive build
if your enemy isnt cutting workers then you dont spam all those cannons because if your enemy scouts you making a bunch of cannons he can double expand and it will be 4base vs 2base
so yeah cannons are fine to spam if you scout that your enemy went for a worker cutting build. now you have cannons to block his aggression on your expansion plus you got 2 bases while he has been cutting workers. just worry about cannons protecting the expansion you can wait a little while before worring about drops or nydus in your main
On January 12 2011 10:07 iChau wrote:Depends on map, of course. Try it on Lost temple or Shakuras Plateau.
Yeah I only do 3 or 4 on those maps if I scout an early roach warren (usually i only do 1-2 on all maps if the zerg goes for a FE as well). I'm just curious to find out if there's a more efficient way of dealing with roach busts then spamming cannons since they're only static defense.
roymarthyup: Thank's for the advice. Is that the same as saying that if you scout the Roach Warren and you see he's saving up on larva you can asume he's cutting workers? (I'm in low diamond playing against low/mid diamond so we can asume everyone I play doesn't let their macro slip that early on in the game)
On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote: You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
I stated I need only 3 cannons per entrance vs 2-base roach since 3 cannons will hold until my first void pops out ~8 mins on the maps I actually FE on (Scrap/Jungle/Shakuras and to a lesser extent LT). Obviously on metal you need more cannons because of the wide open natural but personally I do not believe FE'ing on metal (or any of the other maps I didn't specifically list above) is worth FE'ing on.
A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in.
What I do as a Zerg to counter this is maps that are not to huge is to drone up heavily, quickly tech to lair, get ovi speed and mass hydras. Build a creep highway and add tons of spine crawlers when getting out of gas. Colossus or storm is barely out and if so, only in small numbers and hydras rape everything coming out of the gateway. Hope this helps you.
On January 12 2011 10:16 Skyro wrote:A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in.
Okay I'll admit I'm refering to the wrong build. I mean when they rush to get 7 or 9 roaches straight after their pool is done if they do a 14 gas/pool or pool/gas or maybe scouting you're pylon on the lowground and getting roaches ASAP. Anyways in refrence to what I said earlyer I ment 6-10 cannons for maps like Meta or Xel'Naga, not Blistering Sands, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Lost Temple or Shakuras. Afterall it was Xel'Naga Caverns he had been playing and asked for advice on.
The biggest weakest of this build is always in scouting. Zerg basically know exactly how many cannon, how many gates and how many probed for 5 minutes.
Instead of forcing Zerg into guessing game (how many drones I can make without dying?); he can just count your cannons and decide to pump drones or troops.
Losing in the information war is very dangerous against those macro Zerg, I do think Gate forge or 3 gate expand are much safer to execute in high level games.
On January 12 2011 10:16 Skyro wrote:A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in.
Okay I'll admit I'm refering to the wrong build. I mean when they rush to get 7 or 9 roaches straight after their pool is done if they do a 14 gas/pool or pool/gas or maybe scouting you're pylon on the lowground and getting roaches ASAP. Anyways in refrence to what I said earlyer I ment 6-10 cannons for maps like Meta or Xel'Naga, not Blistering Sands, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Lost Temple or Shakuras. Afterall it was Xel'Naga Caverns he had been playing and asked for advice on.
. Thanks for the advice!
I think from reading everything, it sounds like maybe forge FE is not the best build for close position maps like this. It doesnt sound very worth it building more than 4-5cannons and its not safe with roach sniping/baneling busting gonig on. Could someone answer my q1 and q2 as well?
Can anyone quickly tell me the BO for a 3gate sentry expand vs Z? what unit composition should i have when i lay down the nexus?
On January 12 2011 10:16 Skyro wrote:A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in.
Okay I'll admit I'm refering to the wrong build. I mean when they rush to get 7 or 9 roaches straight after their pool is done if they do a 14 gas/pool or pool/gas or maybe scouting you're pylon on the lowground and getting roaches ASAP. Anyways in refrence to what I said earlyer I ment 6-10 cannons for maps like Meta or Xel'Naga, not Blistering Sands, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Lost Temple or Shakuras. Afterall it was Xel'Naga Caverns he had been playing and asked for advice on.
Well specifically talking about Metal or XC the better advice is just to go 6-gate after FE so you have a mobile army to defend your wide open natural, rather than making so many cannons. But like I said I do not personally think it is worth it to FE on these maps because it limits what you can do (i.e. stargate openers after FE is not really viable on these maps). Making an exhorbitant amount of cannons to defend your natural defeats the purpose of the FE in the first place since you are just using so much of your extra econ on defense. 3-gate expand on these maps is way safer and not very economically behind compared to a FE that builds a ton of cannons.
On January 13 2011 01:58 Skyro wrote:Well specifically talking about Metal or XC the better advice is just to go 6-gate after FE so you have a mobile army to defend your wide open natural, rather than making so many cannons. But like I said I do not personally think it is worth it to FE on these maps because it limits what you can do (i.e. stargate openers after FE is not really viable on these maps). Making an exhorbitant amount of cannons to defend your natural defeats the purpose of the FE in the first place since you are just using so much of your extra econ on defense. 3-gate expand on these maps is way safer and not very economically behind compared to a FE that builds a ton of cannons.
You're forgetting to take account that the zerg is not doing a macro build. He's sacrifising doing drones for getting early Roaches therefor the only hard part in this process is to make just enough cannons to survive his Roach Bust.
On January 13 2011 01:58 Skyro wrote:Well specifically talking about Metal or XC the better advice is just to go 6-gate after FE so you have a mobile army to defend your wide open natural, rather than making so many cannons. But like I said I do not personally think it is worth it to FE on these maps because it limits what you can do (i.e. stargate openers after FE is not really viable on these maps). Making an exhorbitant amount of cannons to defend your natural defeats the purpose of the FE in the first place since you are just using so much of your extra econ on defense. 3-gate expand on these maps is way safer and not very economically behind compared to a FE that builds a ton of cannons.
You're forgetting to take account that the zerg is not doing a macro build. He's sacrifising doing drones for getting early Roaches therefor the only hard part in this process is to make just enough cannons to survive his Roach Bust.
I'm not forgetting anything. You can hold 2-base roaches coming from a standard 14 gas or pool or hatch first opening with about 3 carefully positioned cannons since you will have sentries to defend, even on close positions on metal. Vs 1-base roach like I said it doesn't matter you can go overkill on cannons since he is all-in at that point.
3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count.
3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count.
FFE is definetely stronger build, economically.
You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map.
3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count.
FFE is definetely stronger build, economically.
You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map.
It depends on so many factors (amount of larve you forced zerg to spend on defenses, how much you spend on defenses, etc.) it's pretty hard to say. But generally from what I've seen 3-gate sentry expand will be behind slightly economically going into the midgame vs a competent 2-base zerg player, whereas a 15+ nexus is roughly even. I cannot really comment about FFE too much since I dislike FFE as any map which forces me to make a forge first to secure my FE I feel is not worth to FE on.
3-gate expand is safer though, and the reason I FE is not so much for the economical gain but the fact you can different things from having a 2-base economy w/o having to spend all that early gas on sentries and stalkers.
I'm a mid diamond player, and i've been playing this build for quite a while now (probably november). I had ups and downs based on my understanding of the build and my opponent's response.
Sadly, i'm currently in a down, as most zerg counter it with an hydra push. I usually go stargate into sotrm, but with this hydra bust (which occured mostly on scrap station but not only), they just caught me with my pants down as i only have a few phoenix and a few warpgate units (no templars). Do you guys have faced that ? Is there some variation to the build to make it work on scrap or should i just abandon it altogether ?
On January 13 2011 16:42 Fushin wrote: I'm a mid diamond player, and i've been playing this build for quite a while now (probably november). I had ups and downs based on my understanding of the build and my opponent's response.
Sadly, i'm currently in a down, as most zerg counter it with an hydra push. I usually go stargate into sotrm, but with this hydra bust (which occured mostly on scrap station but not only), they just caught me with my pants down as i only have a few phoenix and a few warpgate units (no templars). Do you guys have faced that ? Is there some variation to the build to make it work on scrap or should i just abandon it altogether ?
Your best bet is to harass as much as possible with your phoenixes to delay them. I usually target gas drones first but will kill a queen if it's alone and I feel I will have the time to do so. Also try to pick off small clumps of hydras (especially as the first batch of hydras pop) to whittle their numbers and delay their push.
You should see the push coming a mile away since they will have to break through the rocks, so judge accordingly. Worst case scenario you make a few more cannons. You should have been constantly making zealots as your mineral dump as well if you opened double stargate off FE so sandwiching the hydras with your zealots/voids and cannons can hold it off fairly well if they attack your main ramp (make sure to bust down your backdoor rocks before this so this is possible). If they go through the backdoor you should be able to hold it easy as it is very easy to defend since it is such a narrow choke.
I usually go phoenix out of 1 stargate, maybe i need 2 to have a high enough phoenix count to harass efficiently before the hydras get there. I'll take your advice and train it this evening, thanks.
Diamond 2500 and i am VERY VERY angry now jsut ragequitted -.-
He will just go MASS ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH. He will just MASS THE SHIT and overrun you. there is nothing you can do. Roach are just cheap as hell and you can't beat them with gateway units!
and again -.- common base race. Tried it with void rays and phoenix. One is in the others base, both destroyng the other. In the end the massed roaches win -.-
On January 17 2011 01:44 CuChullain wrote: Diamond 2500 and i am VERY VERY angry now jsut ragequitted -.-
He will just go MASS ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH. He will just MASS THE SHIT and overrun you. there is nothing you can do. Roach are just cheap as hell and you can't beat them with gateway units!
On January 17 2011 01:44 CuChullain wrote: Diamond 2500 and i am VERY VERY angry now jsut ragequitted -.-
He will just go MASS ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH. He will just MASS THE SHIT and overrun you. there is nothing you can do. Roach are just cheap as hell and you can't beat them with gateway units!
Stalker/Sentry/Immortal+ maybe Voids?
When does he attack lol and show a replay?
Go hit find match, get paired vs zerg, see first hand.
3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count.
FFE is definetely stronger build, economically.
You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map.
It depends on so many factors (amount of larve you forced zerg to spend on defenses, how much you spend on defenses, etc.) it's pretty hard to say. But generally from what I've seen 3-gate sentry expand will be behind slightly economically going into the midgame vs a competent 2-base zerg player, whereas a 15+ nexus is roughly even. I cannot really comment about FFE too much since I dislike FFE as any map which forces me to make a forge first to secure my FE I feel is not worth to FE on.
3-gate expand is safer though, and the reason I FE is not so much for the economical gain but the fact you can different things from having a 2-base economy w/o having to spend all that early gas on sentries and stalkers.
I don't think 3 gate expand would be the go to PvZ opening for strong players if they were behind economically going into midgame with it. I think a huge factor that you are ignoring is how early zerg can take their third. Against FFE they can double expand immediately, or they can drone really hard early and then pump enough units to take their third relatively early and hold off your 2 base timing.
OTOH, against 3 gate expand you have a much larger force early on, and in particular, a ton of sentries. This makes droning harder early on and makes taking a third early impossible. On many maps, with a large stalker/sentry force you can force a cancel or kill a hatch and prevent the zerg from ever engaging you. Also, the sick number of force fields you have makes it so much harder to stop 2 base colossus timings.
Okay i was little bit in a rage while writing my double post. Sorry for that. I take full responsability ;-)
Now i'm calm but i still can't see roaches without the wish to vomit. Well i will soon post some replay with either gates, robo or stargate.
Just to mention: If you go Void ray AND Immortals, firstly you will have a lack of minerals cause it's too much different tech and as the Zerg scouts it, and he will just by trying a push, he will easily switch to hydras. (Not to mention that you are not in the position to pump the same quantity Colossi in the same time Zerg can get hydralisk then and shitloads of hydras)
If I go Void rays out of 2 Gateways he will just run with his roach army straight into my base as soon as he realizes i am straight there with about 4-7 Void rays. It's the most hated base race scenario where i already lost one time due to a drone becoming an assimilator...
Well in fact sometimes Gateway units or High temps works of course. But this is only if zerg is lazy. A good zerg will scout with tasting roach pushes and see the strength of my army and push in as hell^^
BTW: Of course P late game army is death to Z late game army (except broodlords^^) but as we both macro zerg will soon make double expo and in this position he is just easily ahead. So i have to set pressure (I think) after 2 Bases are running.
3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count.
FFE is definetely stronger build, economically.
You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map.
It depends on so many factors (amount of larve you forced zerg to spend on defenses, how much you spend on defenses, etc.) it's pretty hard to say. But generally from what I've seen 3-gate sentry expand will be behind slightly economically going into the midgame vs a competent 2-base zerg player, whereas a 15+ nexus is roughly even. I cannot really comment about FFE too much since I dislike FFE as any map which forces me to make a forge first to secure my FE I feel is not worth to FE on.
3-gate expand is safer though, and the reason I FE is not so much for the economical gain but the fact you can different things from having a 2-base economy w/o having to spend all that early gas on sentries and stalkers.
I don't think 3 gate expand would be the go to PvZ opening for strong players if they were behind economically going into midgame with it. I think a huge factor that you are ignoring is how early zerg can take their third. Against FFE they can double expand immediately, or they can drone really hard early and then pump enough units to take their third relatively early and hold off your 2 base timing.
OTOH, against 3 gate expand you have a much larger force early on, and in particular, a ton of sentries. This makes droning harder early on and makes taking a third early impossible. On many maps, with a large stalker/sentry force you can force a cancel or kill a hatch and prevent the zerg from ever engaging you. Also, the sick number of force fields you have makes it so much harder to stop 2 base colossus timings.
You think? Sounds like you don't really know. It's the "go-to" opening because it is viable on all maps and is the safest opening to get into the midgame, but you will be behind economically vs competent zergs. That's not necessarily a big problem though because on equal economies protoss is usually at an advantage (thus the old zerg adage of "stay at least 1 base ahead of protoss").
Like I said about FFE I can't really comment since I do not like forge-FE since on maps where you are forced to forge first before FE, I don't feel it is worth it to FE to begin with. But Nexus first builds are completely viable on certain maps (in particular Scrap and Jungle, and to a lesser extend Shakuras and LT) and there is simply no way for a zerg player to defend their 3rd on Scrap and Jungle from a double stargate or 6-gate. It is easier to defend (but still hard) on Shakuras and LT, but at the same time a Protoss' third will also be easier to defend, so that's the rub. All this "just take an early 3rd" logic is simply not true on these maps, and on ones that it is true on I do not recommend FE'ing on (though some pros seem to still do it on occassion).
On January 17 2011 06:36 CuChullain wrote: Okay i was little bit in a rage while writing my double post. Sorry for that. I take full responsability ;-)
Now i'm calm but i still can't see roaches without the wish to vomit. Well i will soon post some replay with either gates, robo or stargate.
Just to mention: If you go Void ray AND Immortals, firstly you will have a lack of minerals cause it's too much different tech and as the Zerg scouts it, and he will just by trying a push, he will easily switch to hydras. (Not to mention that you are not in the position to pump the same quantity Colossi in the same time Zerg can get hydralisk then and shitloads of hydras)
If I go Void rays out of 2 Gateways he will just run with his roach army straight into my base as soon as he realizes i am straight there with about 4-7 Void rays. It's the most hated base race scenario where i already lost one time due to a drone becoming an assimilator...
Well in fact sometimes Gateway units or High temps works of course. But this is only if zerg is lazy. A good zerg will scout with tasting roach pushes and see the strength of my army and push in as hell^^
BTW: Of course P late game army is death to Z late game army (except broodlords^^) but as we both macro zerg will soon make double expo and in this position he is just easily ahead. So i have to set pressure (I think) after 2 Bases are running.
I open double stargate after FE and I'm perfectly fine vs roaches. Perhaps your stargates are too late? My first void pops out ~8 mins, and a 2 base roach push only hits you slightly earlier than that (you need ~3 cannons to hold the roaches until your first void pops out). If he continues to pump roaches at that point it is a losing proposition for him. It sort of sounds like you are making too many voids and trying to be too aggressive with them, and while that is viable if you see a vulnerability there it isn't something you should force every game.
If you go phoenixes vs the roaches, the push will hit you before you can get the voidrays out. Even one round of chronoboosted phoenixes.
Basically what happens is your opponent hits you with a bunch of roaches and does what damage he can. If he spots a voidray, he'll back off until burrow. Meanwhile, he's massing hydras at home, which makes Phoenix harass weak. You're now in a situation where you can try to tech to colossus or HT. Either choice is suboptimal, and either way you're behind. The push comes 2-3 minutes later, and it takes VERY good force fields to hold off. Unless your opponent makes a mistake, you're probably dead here.
If your opponent backs off again, he has complete map control and usually you get starved on two bases and are forced to make a push out at some point. The reinforcing kills you afterward.
PvZ is easy for me in every situation except the 2 base roach timing attack. It's really quite difficult to hold off if executed correctly.
On January 17 2011 06:36 CuChullain wrote: Okay i was little bit in a rage while writing my double post. Sorry for that. I take full responsability ;-)
Now i'm calm but i still can't see roaches without the wish to vomit. Well i will soon post some replay with either gates, robo or stargate.
Just to mention: If you go Void ray AND Immortals, firstly you will have a lack of minerals cause it's too much different tech and as the Zerg scouts it, and he will just by trying a push, he will easily switch to hydras. (Not to mention that you are not in the position to pump the same quantity Colossi in the same time Zerg can get hydralisk then and shitloads of hydras)
If I go Void rays out of 2 Gateways he will just run with his roach army straight into my base as soon as he realizes i am straight there with about 4-7 Void rays. It's the most hated base race scenario where i already lost one time due to a drone becoming an assimilator...
Well in fact sometimes Gateway units or High temps works of course. But this is only if zerg is lazy. A good zerg will scout with tasting roach pushes and see the strength of my army and push in as hell^^
BTW: Of course P late game army is death to Z late game army (except broodlords^^) but as we both macro zerg will soon make double expo and in this position he is just easily ahead. So i have to set pressure (I think) after 2 Bases are running.
I realize I'm late to the party here.... but was there discussion of 15 nex vs 11pool?
Lot of transitions from 11 pool could be dangerous to nexus, but if zerg opts economy and protoss reacts, that's going to be a problem.
Assuming that the protoss player is good enough to know the difference between 10pool and 11pool, with this build, he WOULDN'T abandon 15nexus? or he would?
On January 17 2011 08:22 wherebugsgo wrote: If you go phoenixes vs the roaches, the push will hit you before you can get the voidrays out. Even one round of chronoboosted phoenixes.
Basically what happens is your opponent hits you with a bunch of roaches and does what damage he can. If he spots a voidray, he'll back off until burrow. Meanwhile, he's massing hydras at home, which makes Phoenix harass weak. You're now in a situation where you can try to tech to colossus or HT. Either choice is suboptimal, and either way you're behind. The push comes 2-3 minutes later, and it takes VERY good force fields to hold off. Unless your opponent makes a mistake, you're probably dead here.
If your opponent backs off again, he has complete map control and usually you get starved on two bases and are forced to make a push out at some point. The reinforcing kills you afterward.
PvZ is easy for me in every situation except the 2 base roach timing attack. It's really quite difficult to hold off if executed correctly.
Good. Now Toss can expand because of mobility. Hydras are not that fast, so void rays can easily go around picking things off. If you split the hydras up, the void rays can pick off hydras.
When Toss expands he can go carrier/zealot, colossi, or templars, and he has a lot of time to do this with a bunch of cannons.
So far I been using this build and I have won many of my games, excluding 6 pool on cross (inability to scout), failing to scout the army composition, or overlord drops (I now know how to defend drops).
However, when the zerg double expands, I usually cannon the 3rd. The problem is that if he catches me with his 2-4 lings before I can get there and usually I fail. I try to double expand, but 3 expo zerg macro is incredibly powerful. I notice that I did not use chrono-boost for a while which would've got me 2 extra probes, but it wouldn't really matter.
Should I not have expoed? Also, I saw a post that sad Socke used a 6/7 for to beat Dimaga's double expo. How great is it? Massing gates to do a timing attack before his expoes are fully saturated seems like a good idea. I also think a multi-pronged attack will do pretty well (sending 3-4 zealots into 3rd to take out drones --> he comes in to try to take it out --> quickly take out 2nd or snipe more drones and run away).
He simply drones up, gets a 3rd, and masses up roaches quickly with his new production capabilities. Also, I got kinda tripped off when I couldn't cannon his 3rd (xD) so I kinda paused throughout the game and got supply-blocked.
Also, his supply difference was amazing: he was around 40-60 supply ahead of me with queens + roaches.
I just wasn't used to it. He didn't go hydras too so that tripped me even further.
At pro level, the most used follow up to 15 nexii is indeed a timing. Ofc, depends pretty much on what have you scouted, but +1 weapons/6gate/11minute timing is the most used options by pros, and i personally defeated better rated players than i with that strat.
On March 02 2011 23:14 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Dude, are you serious? Please don't bump old threads to ask unrelated questions.
Um, are you serious? Maybe I should have posted better. kcdc's 1 gate fe was in august 10 and it's STILL popular just like this build. If you took a look at the last few pages, you'll see that it's in january 2011, despite the post being in october 2010. Please don't jump to conclusions.
How do you sim-city when you use the 15 nexus on Shattered Temple?
The natural choke is too big, imo, so should I wall in more closer to the nexus?
The only problem that I dislike with this one vs the PvT fast expand, and this makes it sooo difficult especially when there is a timing window for nydus worm.
On March 02 2011 23:02 iChau wrote: How do you sim-city on shattered temple?
I'm still working on finding a good building placement for that map, but I'm currently treating it like xel naga - build some cannons at the ramp and then some more cannons on the other side next to the nexus.
On March 03 2011 06:11 ScythedBlade wrote: The only problem that I dislike with this one vs the PvT fast expand, and this makes it sooo difficult especially when there is a timing window for nydus worm.
Um, you use pylons to spot. When I don't have enough pylons, I patrol with a probe or two. Nydus worms < Base Awareness. You just have to be scared by fast drops (only works in close-air, other times you have enough time to prepare a counter-drop army) when your economy hasn't translated into army yet.
On March 02 2011 23:02 iChau wrote: How do you sim-city on shattered temple?
I'm still working on finding a good building placement for that map, but I'm currently treating it like xel naga - build some cannons at the ramp and then some more cannons on the other side next to the nexus.
Love a PM or update to the thread when you find out. Good luck!